Vahn's quest for glory and saw palmetto destruction!!

[Vahn]

Hi all,

As most of you did, I let the snake of vanity crawl into my garden. Saw palmetto it was called. I still see myself taking that first pill in a futile effort to combat my hair loss genetics. A herbal remedy, because that would be safe, right? Foolish boy. I was a man of 30, but acted as an old infant. Crying and wallowing about my breakup with my ex fiancée, crying and wallowing about my hair loss. Woe was me. I was so vulnerable. No wonder the snakes found their way in.

I took it for a year and quit in January 2020. A couple of days later, I developed:

Hard, shrunken and bent genitals, with some nice bulging veins to complete the picture
Complete impotence
Complete loss of libido
Severe anxiety (because my f*cking junk shrunk, wtf)


After a couple of weeks, this resolved. Libido sky high (really, hands free ejaculations), ED resolved, anxiety gone. Only thing remaining were some minor tissue changes in the penis. I could live with that. I really thought I was healed.

Then April 2020 hit. As if the saw palmetto pulled me an April's fools. I developed:

Worse genital shrinkage, more veins, more tissue loss. Seems to be getting worse even now.
Severe penile numbness (improved a bit)
Impotence
Loss of libido and complete destruction of the mind-penis connection
Loss of sensation over my whole body that would wax and wane
Severe anxiety and depression
Slower and lighter beard growth and body hair (started after 6 months...)
Thinning hands and wrists (Not too sur about this one, I think I am at great risk of developing body dysmorphia, so it's important not to symptom watch I guess)


I didn't know what the f*ck was happening to me. I always ignored the possibility of PFS, surely some stupid herbal supplement couldn't cause these symptoms? That's what all my friends, family, docs told me. It was all because of my breakup, they said. You are manifesting physical symptoms because of subconscious pain about your ex. I was very much in pain, that part is true (and I still am). I wanted to believe them, were it only for some ED and libido loss. But seeing your genitals shrink before your eyes in 1 day. Yeah, no.

My symptoms did not improve, and eventually, after doing every possible medical test (seriously, I have pulled down my pants for so many docs it's ridiculous) which all presented unremarkable results, I came to the only conclusion left: PFS. And as so many of you probably did, I ended up on propeciahelp. This is not a rant against PH, but browsing through it is what made me dangerously suicidal. So much that I'm under psychiatric evaluation and on antidepressants. (I’m currently on Wellbutrin, I believe it helps, but would this in any way interact negatively with the herbs?) I still wake up suicidal most days. It's that severe. I guess you all know what I'm talking about.

Luckily though, it was by browsing hours upon hours through PH, that some glimmers of hope revealed themselves to me. I read about Chi, cdnuts and many other "holistic" recoveries. People with iron willpower that escaped the pits of hell. I couldn't commit yet, though. Committing would equal accepting the condition I am in. And I was still very much in denial. And if I wasn't in denial, I was in fear of doing anything that could make it worse.

Well, I'm done. Time to commit. Time to get out of my couch and start doing something. That's why I decided to post today. An affirmative action, a signal to my brain that I'm done despairing and wallowing in self pity. I need some f*cking positivity in my life. I want to live again goddammit. I'll show all of them. I'll show them all how much of a hero I can be! FUCK.


I've bought a juicer but I'm not a big guy and have always eaten very healthy before. I know this is a crucial step, but I'm a bit worried it will just weaken me?
I'm already doing paleo since it was fairly easy to implement this.
Only carbs (gluten free oats) on workout days.
I’ve renewed my gym membership and am doing HIIT.
Loving the cold showers!
Ordered 14 herbs (as my finances permit) for a 2 week cycle and daily supplements. Little scared, I have to admit, since it was a herb that got me here in the first place...
I've got a Joove to sun the boys :)



I don't want to go back to the old me.
I want a better version.
Time to be a hero!

[Mineiro-up]

Good luck on your quest dude! I feel you on the both sides: being devastaded and willing to overcame. Think seriously on your waterfast, that's your next step IMO.

[Vahn]

Hi all,

When I posted last week, I had a bit of an upswing (increased penile sensitivity, mental clarity...), but somehow that all went away again. Especially the shrinkage is driving me nuts, which seems to be getting worse even 9 months after quitting.

Anyway, I'm about to start my 7 day juice feast, but I've got a couple of questions (sorry if these have been asked before):

-I'm already taking some daily supplements (vit D, chlorella...) as per the protocol, is it OK to keep taking these? Or juices only? :)
-Can I eat other vegetables like spinach, rocket, cauliflower... during the feast? Or, again, juices only?
-Any advice on how to exercise during the feast? I was thinking some light cardio only.


Cheers

[Vahn]

Hey guys,

Apart from the juice feast, I am slowly implementing the whole protocol and I’m getting used to it. I know I should juice asap.

I’m in a severe downswing at the moment. I know I shouldn’t be symptom watching and try to keep a positive mindset and outlook, but I guess I am looking for some encouragement today.

My shrinkage is getting worse and worse and is starting to hurt. My baseline is lowering and it’s keeping me from mentally relaxing. I don’t understand why this is happening so many months after stopping the drug.

Any tips on the mental aspect and keeping up the good fight? It’s as if My body is incapable of relaxing. 🤷‍♂️

Really trying to convince myself I will overcome this, but fuck me this shit is relentless.

Thanks!

[mm.ch]

Hello Vahn,

During your juice feast, you have to drink juices only, no supplements and nothing that will make your digestion go so no food, only juices.

I recommand you to not exercises too much, especially cardio, maybe you can try yoga wich is a good thing to keep being active in a slow way.

Try to keep your mind busy with something else, even if we always end up thinking about PFS, just try... Easier said that done, I am not there yet either.

[Cdsnuts]

Hey guys,

Apart from the juice feast, I am slowly implementing the whole protocol and I’m getting used to it. I know I should juice asap.

I’m in a severe downswing at the moment. I know I shouldn’t be symptom watching and try to keep a positive mindset and outlook, but I guess I am looking for some encouragement today.

My shrinkage is getting worse and worse and is starting to hurt. My baseline is lowering and it’s keeping me from mentally relaxing. I don’t understand why this is happening so many months after stopping the drug.

Any tips on the mental aspect and keeping up the good fight? It’s as if My body is incapable of relaxing. ��‍♂️

Really trying to convince myself I will overcome this, but fuck me this shit is relentless.

Thanks!

You guys really need to READ. I know it's hard in the state you're in, but it is very clearly stated on the site. NOTHING ELSE during a feast/fast except water and juice....THAT'S IT.

[mm.ch]

Sorry I did not mention water in my post, common sense (to me) that water is ok.

[Vahn]

Ok guys,

An update on my recovery.

I've been unable to do a proper 7 day juice feast. A couple of days after my last update, I had been admitted to university mental health institute for which I had been waiting many months. Good news is that the institute is helping me learn some coping mechanisms. Bad news is I can't introduce a feast here and my exercise options are limited.

Nonetheless, I am fully embracing all other aspects of the protocol to the best of my ability (diet, exercise, sunning, daily supps, binned my shampoos and bought all natural ones, nofap, bathmate is on the way, breathing and meditation) but I have witnessed a good upswing last week where my sensitivity and penile structure began improving, a lot more positivity, libido spikes, since I began my first herb cycle! So I am very excited to see what consistency will bring. I didn't want to wait hopping on the protocol until after the juice feast, even though I know it's an important part. So equally excited to see what more improvements I will have after the feast!

Since yesterday, I am in a downswing again, which is what many here warned would happen. But I am trying to keep my mind focused on recovery and the time it will take. I almost a year off saw palmetto, but only a a month or so on parts of the protocol, so the counting starts now, not a year ago :)

Thanks everyone for all positivity here. Hope to update with good news in the future.

[Maxout777]

Best of luck, my friend. It seems you’ve got it set up pretty well here. I’d recommend fasting or feasting of some variety before getting too far in. It definitely cleans your slate and allows for quicker healing.

[Cdsnuts]

Definitely cleanse, one way or the other. It's not a suggestion, it's a must.

And then there is the antidepressant to think about. I know you're in a fragile state right now, but you won't fully heal while taking any kind of pharmaceuticals.

[Vahn]

Thanks for the feedback, Maxout and CD.

I understand it is a must! I've already discussed tapering off the AD with my psychiatrist, which I'll have to do before doing the cleanse anyway.

Not a big fan anymore of the whole "let's throw a pill at it" philosophy of modern medicine...

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks for the feedback, Maxout and CD.

I understand it is a must! I've already discussed tapering off the AD with my psychiatrist, which I'll have to do before doing the cleanse anyway.

Not a big fan anymore of the whole "let's throw a pill at it" philosophy of modern medicine...

Good you shouldn't be. It's what got us all here, for starters. That should be enough for anyone, but then when you factor in that the side effects of the drugs and their presence in the system always weakens the body and causes problems in other areas so that you then have to take more pills to combat the side effects of the original pills, etc, etc. It's a wormhole most of the time and the pills never actually cure anything but simply manage symptoms.

People aren't machines and cannot be treated as such. A holistic approach to healing where you bring the whole system into balance always works best, regardless of what health issue you're dealing with.

[Vahn]

Some updates on my recovery:

1. I convinced my psychiatrist to taper off the Wellbutrin. I'll be clear in a couple of weeks, after which I plan to do my juice feast for at least 7 days and take this to the next level. Can't wait! I want to go all in.

2. I'm having good upswings, followed by harsh downswings. Last weekend was particularly good, my penile tissue actually improved, libido spiked and for a while I almost felt like myself again. Haven't felt like that in a loooong time. Gone again since yesterday, though. Dick's like a dead deflated balloon again. Crazy how this shit goes back and forth, but it's better than seeing absolutely no change for months. Part of the process of course -- the downswings remain extremely difficult mentally, but I'm learning to deal with it.

3. My bathmate arrived and I kinda enjoy the feeling haha. I'm doing it slowly and carefully, though, to get accustomed. Don't want to overpump.

4. I've had days with good morning wood, but not consistently. Good sign, though.

5. Currently on my 2nd herb cycle. Rotating 20 herbs atm. Not trying to gauge my response to each herb too much. I'm just taking them and trusting the process.

6. Still taking low dose Cialis for reliable erections, however. One thing I noticed is that my symptoms sort of improve (fuller flaccid penis, better sensitivity...) after sex for some reason.


Cheers guys, and keep fighting!

[Cdsnuts]

Some updates on my recovery:

1. I convinced my psychiatrist to taper off the Wellbutrin. I'll be clear in a couple of weeks, after which I plan to do my juice feast for at least 7 days and take this to the next level. Can't wait! I want to go all in.

2. I'm having good upswings, followed by harsh downswings. Last weekend was particularly good, my penile tissue actually improved, libido spiked and for a while I almost felt like myself again. Haven't felt like that in a loooong time. Gone again since yesterday, though. Dick's like a dead deflated balloon again. Crazy how this shit goes back and forth, but it's better than seeing absolutely no change for months. Part of the process of course -- the downswings remain extremely difficult mentally, but I'm learning to deal with it.

3. My bathmate arrived and I kinda enjoy the feeling haha. I'm doing it slowly and carefully, though, to get accustomed. Don't want to overpump.

4. I've had days with good morning wood, but not consistently. Good sign, though.

5. Currently on my 2nd herb cycle. Rotating 20 herbs atm. Not trying to gauge my response to each herb too much. I'm just taking them and trusting the process.

6. Still taking low dose Cialis for reliable erections, however. One thing I noticed is that my symptoms sort of improve (fuller flaccid penis, better sensitivity...) after sex for some reason.


Cheers guys, and keep fighting!

I can say that if you're having good feelings so early before even starting, you may have a relatively quick recovery. Dont' take that as gospel, just an educated guess.

Sounds like you're off to a great start. Please keep us posted.

[Vahn]

Hi everyone.

Have't got too much to update on. Going up, going down, you know the drill. The fact I am seeing fluctuations is very encouraging, but I've still got a loooong way to go.

I've successfully tapered off the Wellbutrin since last weekend! I can now finally start my juice feast next week and commit 100% to the protocol. Having some trouble with the nofap, meditation and breathing exercises. Sunning has been a little inconsistent too. Time to really lock it in.

Still using the bathmate but I think I almost overdid it once, so I dialed it back. Cdsnuts: maybe this needs some clarification on the TMO website? I was under the impression I had to pump until (and a bit beyond) completely erect, but if I recall correctly I saw you mentioning in another topic that we should pump until 'full', not erect. Maybe I misread/misunderstood? In any case, I won't be pumping too hard for now, just to be on the safe side.

I also visited a professor in endocrinology this month (had been planned months in advance) who actually knew about PFS. Het basically tested my blood levels again and did a (second) full imaging test of the genitalia. For those of you who might still be concerned it is some kind of Peyronie's: it's not. My little guy curves, thins and is full of bulging veins, but no structural damage of any kind could be found. It does look scary, but I've had some improvements. I'm assuming this is one of those symptoms that will take the longest to resolve?

He didn't want to deny my symptoms, but he believed it very unlikely to be the result of saw palmetto and more the result of some kind of 'autonomic dysregulation', given my history of anxiety and depression, which could all very well lead to symptoms such as numbness. Couldn't help me further of course, as expected, but it doesn't really matter. Still doing the protocol! :)

I did notice that seeing some improvement, trusting the protocol and trying to stay off the forums (even this one) and busy yourself with... you know, life... has been a tremendous help for my mental health.

Will update after the feast and in the coming months.

Cheers guys and keep fighting!

[Cdsnuts]

Hi everyone.

Have't got too much to update on. Going up, going down, you know the drill. The fact I am seeing fluctuations is very encouraging, but I've still got a loooong way to go.

I've successfully tapered off the Wellbutrin since last weekend! I can now finally start my juice feast next week and commit 100% to the protocol. Having some trouble with the nofap, meditation and breathing exercises. Sunning has been a little inconsistent too. Time to really lock it in.

Still using the bathmate but I think I almost overdid it once, so I dialed it back. Cdsnuts: maybe this needs some clarification on the TMO website? I was under the impression I had to pump until (and a bit beyond) completely erect, but if I recall correctly I saw you mentioning in another topic that we should pump until 'full', not erect. Maybe I misread/misunderstood? In any case, I won't be pumping too hard for now, just to be on the safe side.

I also visited a professor in endocrinology this month (had been planned months in advance) who actually knew about PFS. Het basically tested my blood levels again and did a (second) full imaging test of the genitalia. For those of you who might still be concerned it is some kind of Peyronie's: it's not. My little guy curves, thins and is full of bulging veins, but no structural damage of any kind could be found. It does look scary, but I've had some improvements. I'm assuming this is one of those symptoms that will take the longest to resolve?

He didn't want to deny my symptoms, but he believed it very unlikely to be the result of saw palmetto and more the result of some kind of 'autonomic dysregulation', given my history of anxiety and depression, which could all very well lead to symptoms such as numbness. Couldn't help me further of course, as expected, but it doesn't really matter. Still doing the protocol! :)

I did notice that seeing some improvement, trusting the protocol and trying to stay off the forums (even this one) and busy yourself with... you know, life... has been a tremendous help for my mental health.

Will update after the feast and in the coming months.

Cheers guys and keep fighting!

So it's a bit difficult to explain properly. You want to let the bathmate make you erect.....not your brain. You want to let your dick fill up with blood because of the vacuum created by the bathmate. So, technically, you will be erect, but not erect in the sense that you're used to being. If you put yourself in the bathmate while erect, you will not be able to let the bathmate do it's job properly because you'll be hard and it will be more difficult to let the bathmate "fill you up" properly, if that makes sense.

Do you understand what I'm trying to convey?

You could put yourself in with a chubby and then calm yourself, breath, and then start pumping. The point is, you want to let the bathmate do all the work.....not your head.

So, you DO pump with the bathmate until it makes you erect, but make sure it's a "mechanical" hard on, and not one that you made happen with your mind. You'll get more into your unit this way as opposed to a "natural" hard on.

[Vahn]

Thanks for the feedback, CD, I think I've got it.

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks for the feedback, CD, I think I've got it.

Once you get it once or twice, it becomes very easy. You just have play around with it a bit.

[Vahn]

Cheers all,

I've come off all medications and I'm on day 1 of the juice feast. Exciting! Planning on going for at least a week.
Cdsnuts:
1. You mentioned before we can't take anything else during the feast. I've read Maxout777 saying that him doing the herb rotation during the feast did him just fine. I've been rotating the herbs for around 2 months now (21 day cycle...), would you still recommend pausing it as per the protocol, or is there any benefit in continuing the herb cycle during the feast considering I've been on cycle for quite some time now? I don't mind either way, I was just curious. :)
2. This is probably a silly question, but is fresh soup is OK to take in addition to the 6 quarts of cold juice? I understand that the cooking part kills off live enzymes and vitamins, but I suppose it can't hurt as an extra?

Thanks!

[Maxout777]

Cheers all,

I've come off all medications and I'm on day 1 of the juice feast. Exciting! Planning on going for at least a week.
Cdsnuts:
1. You mentioned before we can't take anything else during the feast. I've read Maxout777 saying that him doing the herb rotation during the feast did him just fine. I've been rotating the herbs for around 2 months now (21 day cycle...), would you still recommend pausing it as per the protocol, or is there any benefit in continuing the herb cycle during the feast considering I've been on cycle for quite some time now? I don't mind either way, I was just curious. :)
2. This is probably a silly question, but is fresh soup is OK to take in addition to the 6 quarts of cold juice? I understand that the cooking part kills off live enzymes and vitamins, but I suppose it can't hurt as an extra?

Thanks!

I had no issues running the herbs, as you mentioned. I think it's probably a case-by-case basis here. In my opinion these days, any time you're fasting (water, juice, bone broth, dry) - I think the less supplements and compounds in the body the better.

Also, not CD - but I wouldn't add anything besides juice. I would pick a water, juice, or broth fast and stick to only that for a week (preferably two).

[Cdsnuts]

Cheers all,

I've come off all medications and I'm on day 1 of the juice feast. Exciting! Planning on going for at least a week.
Cdsnuts:
1. You mentioned before we can't take anything else during the feast. I've read Maxout777 saying that him doing the herb rotation during the feast did him just fine. I've been rotating the herbs for around 2 months now (21 day cycle...), would you still recommend pausing it as per the protocol, or is there any benefit in continuing the herb cycle during the feast considering I've been on cycle for quite some time now? I don't mind either way, I was just curious. :)
2. This is probably a silly question, but is fresh soup is OK to take in addition to the 6 quarts of cold juice? I understand that the cooking part kills off live enzymes and vitamins, but I suppose it can't hurt as an extra?

Thanks!

No, no, and no. While cleansing.....you take NOTHING other then what you are cleansing with. Anything else added in just causes the bodies digestive system to work which is what you DON'T want. The point of a cleanse is to let everything come OUT, not to put anything else IN.

This seems to be a sticking point for many guys. I think you need to do some research into cleansing and why it's important you don't put anything else into your system during this time. Cleanse and rest........that's it. And if you can go longer then 7 days, by all means do so.

You want to stop ALL supplements and food....completely. This gives your body a chance to rest and clean itself without stimulating it with any kind of response (herbs, vitamins, etc.) This way, once you're finished, the herbs and the rest of the supplements will hit that much harder.

Just cleanse......

Congrats on getting of the pharmaceuticals. That is a feat in itself, believe me, I know. Now you can start the road to the recovery section. Good luck, and stay true to the protocol.

[Vahn]

Thank you, Maxout and CD, for the constructive feedback. I really appreciate you guys supporting us through this ordeal.

I'll stick to the juice! :)

[Cdsnuts]

Thank you, Maxout and CD, for the constructive feedback. I really appreciate you guys supporting us through this ordeal.

I'll stick to the juice! :)

Good. And again, the longer, the better.

[tallstraw]

im not gonna go read the whole program. What the reason for juice over water? Aren't you trying to reset your digestive biome, and body markers? Wouldn't constantly drinking juice just mean youre only ingesting sugar 7 days?

[Cdsnuts]

im not gonna go read the whole program. What the reason for juice over water? Aren't you trying to reset your digestive biome, and body markers? Wouldn't constantly drinking juice just mean youre only ingesting sugar 7 days?

Dude.....well I'm not going to explain it for the thousandth time ad nauseum....lol. THAT is why I wrote the site. You know how many times I have to repeat myself? It's literally been covered a hundred times and it's on TMO (https://www.totalmaleoptimization.com/). TMO will explain it to a tee. You can also get a ridiculous amount of info just by searching this forum.

The body runs on sugar my man....at it's simplest form, ALL calories are converted to simple sugars to power the cells. Fruit and veggie sugar is readily usable by the body with no digestion necessary. This frees up ALOT of energy for internal house cleaning while still providing energy to get through the day, as opposed to a water fast.

It's the best "cleanse" option for those who are not that sick or cannot take a month off to do a water fast.

[tallstraw]

Dude.....well I'm not going to explain it for the thousandth time ad nauseum....lol. THAT is why I wrote the site. You know how many times I have to repeat myself? It's literally been covered a hundred times and it's on TMO (https://www.totalmaleoptimization.com/). TMO will explain it to a tee. You can also get a ridiculous amount of info just by searching this forum.

The body runs on sugar my man....at it's simplest form, ALL calories are converted to simple sugars to power the cells. Fruit and veggie sugar is readily usable by the body with no digestion necessary. This frees up ALOT of energy for internal house cleaning while still providing energy to get through the day, as opposed to a water fast.

It's the best "cleanse" option for those who are not that sick or cannot take a month off to do a water fast.
I got the email, so I saw you say you aren’t gonna do it.. then you edited it went and did it xD.
I appreciate the spark notes. I’m also not PFS so I didn’t think to click the site cuz I thought I’d have to pay and it’s not something I need.

[BBG]

The body runs on sugar my man....at it's simplest form, ALL calories are converted to simple sugars to power the cells.

That's false though, what about ketones?

Fats can be turned into ketones, especially when on a low carb diet. MCTs are turned into ketones extremely readily. Fat can eventually be turned into carbohydrates, but it's actually a very expensive process in the body and one the body prefers not to do.

There are also 5 amino acids (phenylalanine, isoleucine, threonine, tryptophan and tyrosine) that are both ketogenic and glucogenic, so those can be turned into ketones as well. And lysice and leucine are exclusively ketogenic, which means they are only ever turned into ketones when necessary.


Wouldn't constantly drinking juice just mean youre only ingesting sugar 7 days?

Yeah, I've never seen a fruit fast being a legitimate way to fast. Why overload the body with sugar? If anything, an all protein fast is best to spare lean muscle tissue and still have the body convert aminos -> ketones/glucose when needed.

Spiking insulin with an all sugar diet is crazy

Plus, if someone is eating carbs as their only source of energy, they can still go through de novo lipogenesis and create fat stores from those carbs. But they can't create amino acids/muscle from them.

You'd have a hard time arguing that digestion is such a burden while there are plenty of people on the planet who perform at incredibly high levels of athleticism while eating 1000s more calories than the normal person.

[BBG]

It's not false. All cells run on glucose and some amino acids. The brain may use ketones when it gets to that point, but the cells ALWAYS run on glucose.

Most cells use glucose for ATP production but not all cells.

I don't really want to argue semantic, but:
1. Ketones yield GTP and ATP which is used by cells for various processes (RNA synthesis and as a source of energy primarily).
2. The brain is made of cells that can take ketones for energy. Yes it does preferentially run on glycogen.
3. Heart cells can use ketones. Actually, the heart prefers to run on fatty acids. The heart is also made of cells.
4. Our bodies cells use fatty acids for ketones for energy (ATP) when we aren't eating sugar and have depleted our internal supplies.

[Cdsnuts]

Most cells use glucose for ATP production but not all cells.

I don't really want to argue semantic, but:
1. Ketones yield GTP and ATP which is used by cells for various processes (RNA synthesis and as a source of energy primarily).
2. The brain is made of cells that can take ketones for energy. Yes it does preferentially run on glycogen.
3. Heart cells can use ketones. Actually, the heart prefers to run on fatty acids. The heart is also made of cells.
4. Our bodies cells use fatty acids for ketones for energy (ATP) when we aren't eating sugar and have depleted our internal supplies.


Believe me, I don't want to argue at all. This protocol was put together with everything in mind given what these men are going through. And yes, i agree with everything you're saying, but for the most part, all cells run on glucose.


Okay, well if you're feeling bored, or just want to pick up some new knowledge, just do some research on juice feasting. it's counter intuitive for alot of people because the first thing they think is "OMG all that sugar" What they don't take into account is that when there is nothing else being taken into the system...fats, protein, complex carbs., etc. it makes all the difference in the world.

Most of the medical community can't see the forest for the trees.

[Cdsnuts]

That's false though, what about ketones?

Fats can be turned into ketones, especially when on a low carb diet. MCTs are turned into ketones extremely readily. Fat can eventually be turned into carbohydrates, but it's actually a very expensive process in the body and one the body prefers not to do.

There are also 5 amino acids (phenylalanine, isoleucine, threonine, tryptophan and tyrosine) that are both ketogenic and glucogenic, so those can be turned into ketones as well. And lysice and leucine are exclusively ketogenic, which means they are only ever turned into ketones when necessary.



Yeah, I've never seen a fruit fast being a legitimate way to fast. Why overload the body with sugar? If anything, an all protein fast is best to spare lean muscle tissue and still have the body convert aminos -> ketones/glucose when needed.

Spiking insulin with an all sugar diet is crazy

Plus, if someone is eating carbs as their only source of energy, they can still go through de novo lipogenesis and create fat stores from those carbs. But they can't create amino acids/muscle from them.

You'd have a hard time arguing that digestion is such a burden while there are plenty of people on the planet who perform at incredibly high levels of athleticism while eating 1000s more calories than the normal person.

Yes, I’m well aware, but thank you. But like I said MOST, if not all cells use glucose for their primary energy source. With a juice feast, you’re not “overloading” the body with sugar….I can understand your concern if they were slamming four quarts of juice a day AND eating a regular diet…..THAT is where the problems arise do to fats and other material making the work of the insulin that much harder to shuttle the sugar into the cells. But when nothing else is in the system aside from simple sugars, the insulin spike isn’t anything to be concerned with. Secondly, they are doing this for a period of one to two weeks. It’s a cleanse, not a diet.

Bro….you’re in the propecia section now….A section that I’ve been running for the past five years or so.
And It's not false. ALL cells run on glucose and some amino acids. The brain may use ketones when it gets to that point, but the cells ALWAYS run on glucose.

Just because you haven't seen one doesn't mean anything. That’s the old medical model of thinking. I HAVE seen a myriad of successful juice feasts where people have beaten supposedly terminal conditions. My juice feast alone was 45 days and I felt amazing afterwards. Plenty of research out there if you take the time to look. Just because it may go against what the medical “norm” is now, that is simply because that “norm” is completely outdated and obsolete.

They are doing this to cleanse the system. Not spare muscle, not keep gains….that comes afterwords. In the state they are in now, they NEED to cleanse the system. An all protein fast would be a quick way to bog them down even more, especially seeing as most of them have digestive issues from pfs.

A juice FEAST is one of the healthiest ways to cleanse the system. An all protein fast? No way……not for this. That would be a disaster….lol. The point of the cleanse is to….well….cleanse, and that is exactly what the feast does impeccably. One of the worst things these guys can do would be do do an all protein fast…..my god.

Most of what the protocol is , isn't what you would call looked at with great admiration by the medical profession. That doesn't mean much. They want repeat customers for life. Why get them well on their own when you can have them chained to the prescription pad, which, ultimately, will just make them worse.

I appreciate the help, but you have to understand your audience here.....Doing this....is just going to confuse already scared and confused guys.
That's the thing....I don't want to, nor do I have to argue anything. We all know digestion takes up a HUGE portion of resources. And those plenty of people on the planet that perform at high levels, are athletes in peak condition, not guys that were decimated by a 5ar inhibitor. That’s like comparing apples to oranges. It doesn’t work.

Simple sugars are the easiest for the body to use because for the most part, they require little to no digestion. They also produce little to no cellular waste products.

When it comes to CLEANSING, juice feasting and water fasting are the best routes to go.
We have to tear down the old, and build up the new. And that’s exactly what this program does.
There is a reason why the list of recoveries here keeps growing when you’d be hard pressed to find them anywhere else.
I respect your knowledge on many subjects…..but when it comes to pfs…..I got this……not just based on my own experiences but based on the experiences of hundreds of other men I’ve coached successfully

[BBG]

But like I said MOST, if not all cells use glucose for their primary energy source.
And It's not false. ALL cells run on glucose and some amino acids. The brain may use ketones when it gets to that point, but the cells ALWAYS run on glucose.

Yes, the above statements are false. The heart uses fatty acids for 90% of its energy demands and muscles at rest also use a considerable amount of fatty acids for energy demands.
From Each Organ Has a Unique Metabolic Profile (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22436/)

From the above Biochemistry text:

In resting muscle, fatty acids are the major fuel, meeting 85% of the energy needs.

Moreover, the heart has virtually no glycogen reserves. Fatty acids are the heart's main source of fuel, although ketone bodies as well as lactate can serve as fuel for heart muscle. In fact, heart muscle consumes acetoacetate in preference to glucose.


Bro….you’re in the propecia section now….A section that I’ve been running for the past five years or so.

No matter who runs the show, differing opinions are paramount to open discourse on a free and public forum.


I appreciate the help, but you have to understand your audience here.....Doing this....is just going to confuse already scared and confused guys.

I don't know these guys personally, but I don't believe anyone to be so scared and confused that they can't formulate their own opinion based on information given to them.


Simple sugars are the easiest for the body to use because for the most part, they require little to no digestion. They also produce little to no cellular waste products.

Might as well just not eat anything if that's the main goal. The body will take from its body fat stores to run the show. Brain fog would be pretty real, though.


I respect your knowledge on many subjects…..but when it comes to pfs…..I got this……not just based on my own experiences but based on the experiences of hundreds of other men I’ve coached successfully

True, as someone who currently takes finasteride and hasn't noticed any negative effects at my current dosage, I'm not familiar with PFS. I wouldn't pretend to have more knowledge than you on that specific subject.
Vahn - sorry for hijacking the thread, that wasn't my intention. Good luck with the protocol dude!

[Vahn]

Vahn - sorry for hijacking the thread, that wasn't my intention. Good luck with the protocol dude!

Thanks! And no problem, mate. I appreciate you sharing your insights.

I do agree with CD's sentiment, however. There's a reason I did not discuss this protocol with any of my doctors. It is my only beacon of hope as of now, so any doubt cast upon it creates a lot of anxiety and catastrophic thinking.

[Cdsnuts]

Yes, the above statements are false. The heart uses fatty acids for 90% of its energy demands and muscles at rest also use a considerable amount of fatty acids for energy demands.
From Each Organ Has a Unique Metabolic Profile (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22436/)

From the above Biochemistry text:

In resting muscle, fatty acids are the major fuel, meeting 85% of the energy needs.

Moreover, the heart has virtually no glycogen reserves. Fatty acids are the heart's main source of fuel, although ketone bodies as well as lactate can serve as fuel for heart muscle. In fact, heart muscle consumes acetoacetate in preference to glucose.

Okay....and the other 30 trillion cells run on?.....Glucose.


No matter who runs the show, differing opinions are paramount to open discourse on a free and public forum.

Of course. But this isn't a matter of opinion.

I don't know these guys personally, but I don't believe anyone to be so scared and confused that they can't formulate their own opinion based on information given to them.

Lol....then you don't know pfs guys my man. Many of them are EXACTLY this way. And who can blame them. Muddying the waters with this petty back and forth is doing nothing for the benefit of this section and this group of guys. As someone who doesn't have pfs, I'm surprised you'd want to even spend time here seeing as it's not your usual run of the mill forum experience.


Might as well just not eat anything if that's the main goal. The body will take from its body fat stores to run the show. Brain fog would be pretty real, though.

Water fasting is the best option, but juice feasting is the second best option given each individuals situation. And yes, I'm very familiar. I've done four extended water fasts and one extended juice feast. The water fasts were three at 21 days and one at 14 days over the course of five years. The juice feast was 45 days. And during a fast, you actually have a clearer mind then any other time. Brain fog is actually non-existent once you settle into the fast. So when you have somebody who starts talking about how bad a juice feast is when they've never experienced what it can do to cleanse the system, it serves no purpose other then to confuse and argue. I'm done arguing. Without first hand experience, it's just look at this study, look what this says.......all means nothing. EXPERIENCE......that's where it's at. And not just my own....all of the men I've coached as well.

True, as someone who currently takes finasteride and hasn't noticed any negative effects at my current dosage, I'm not familiar with PFS. I wouldn't pretend to have more knowledge than you on that specific subject.

Well, for your sake let's hope it stays that way. Some guys get it after one pill, some after ten years,, some right after quitting.

Vahn - sorry for hijacking the thread, that wasn't my intention. Good luck with the protocol dude!

See above.

[Turnover25]

Yes, the above statements are false. The heart uses fatty acids for 90% of its energy demands and muscles at rest also use a considerable amount of fatty acids for energy demands.
From Each Organ Has a Unique Metabolic Profile (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22436/)

From the above Biochemistry text:

In resting muscle, fatty acids are the major fuel, meeting 85% of the energy needs.

Moreover, the heart has virtually no glycogen reserves. Fatty acids are the heart's main source of fuel, although ketone bodies as well as lactate can serve as fuel for heart muscle. In fact, heart muscle consumes acetoacetate in preference to glucose.



No matter who runs the show, differing opinions are paramount to open discourse on a free and public forum.



I don't know these guys personally, but I don't believe anyone to be so scared and confused that they can't formulate their own opinion based on information given to them.



Might as well just not eat anything if that's the main goal. The body will take from its body fat stores to run the show. Brain fog would be pretty real, though.



True, as someone who currently takes finasteride and hasn't noticed any negative effects at my current dosage, I'm not familiar with PFS. I wouldn't pretend to have more knowledge than you on that specific subject.
Vahn - sorry for hijacking the thread, that wasn't my intention. Good luck with the protocol dude!


I truly don’t understand how you can justifiably touch finasteride with the knowledge you have after seeing this forum. I would have never touched it if I saw the stories of guys suffering PFS. You don’t know how bad you’re playing with fire.

[Cdsnuts]

I truly don’t understand how you can justifiably touch finasteride with the knowledge you have after seeing this forum. I would have never touched it if I saw the stories of guys suffering PFS. You don’t know how bad you’re playing with fire.

I would imagine the same reason we all did......Vanity. And for alot of guys, they just don't think it will happen to them. For his sake, I hope it doesn't. He'll end up back here on the other side of the equation which will not be a pleasant experience as we all know.

BBG know's his shit when it comes to PED's and ancillary products, hands down. I've "known" him from various forums for probably ten years or more.

I'm trying to tactfully explain that this isn't that type of forum anymore.....actually, this SECTION isn't for those type of discussions. The pfs section is for discussing progress on the TMO protocol, of which most of you are VERY familiar.

[Turnover25]

I would imagine the same reason we all did......Vanity. And for alot of guys, they just don't think it will happen to them. For his sake, I hope it doesn't. He'll end up back here on the other side of the equation which will not be a pleasant experience as we all know.

BBG know's his shit when it comes to PED's and ancillary products, hands down. I've "known" him from various forums for probably ten years or more.

I'm trying to tactfully explain that this isn't that type of forum anymore.....actually, this SECTION isn't for those type of discussions. The pfs section is for discussing progress on the TMO protocol, of which most of you are VERY familiar.

Right, normally with all things in life, I have a “to each your own” attitude, but that line is drawn with fin. I can’t help but say something if I see someone putting this poison in their bodies. I have a best friend who takes it also and I’ve tried talking him out of it. PFS is complete, utter destruction of your life in the worst way. It’s absolutely fucking insane to me that anyone takes this stuff knowing the risks. But hey that’s just me.

[Queens1984]

Right, normally with all things in life, I have a “to each your own” attitude, but that line is drawn with fin. I can’t help but say something if I see someone putting this poison in their bodies. I have a best friend who takes it also and I’ve tried talking him out of it. PFS is complete, utter destruction of your life in the worst way. It’s absolutely fucking insane to me that anyone takes this stuff knowing the risks. But hey that’s just me.

It weakens the entire system. That’s coming from a Dr that I spoke too who crashed. I agree it’s POISON. The littlest thing can set you back. I really wonder how long you have too follow the Protocol too fully heal...

[Cdsnuts]

It weakens the entire system. That’s coming from a Dr that I spoke too who crashed. I agree it’s POISON. The littlest thing can set you back. I really wonder how long you have too follow the Protocol too fully heal...

Average recovery time doing the protocol 100% is 6mo-2yrs...that's fully committed.

[Dude1988]

BBG, dude the study about the brain first thing says this: 'Brain. Glucose is virtually the sole fuel for the human brain, except during prolonged starvation.'

It's glucose man your body always convert to that and unless you are blind Keto diet believer there is no way around this.
I am sure there are some circumstantial exceptions that are in reality irrelevant to our situation but are you really going to argue based on minute details. it's dishonest because overall CD's statement is correct.

Not only is juice fasting easier than water fasting but it also provides adequate minerals, vitamins and phytonutrients that accelerate healing. Many would argue it can actually be more beneficial than a water fast.
It has been used for thousands of years in aryuveda (and greeks and romans used it look up grape juice fasting).
I am not going to wait another decade or century for conventional science to catch up to old wisdom.

Nowadays this knowledge is all lost because pharmaceutical want to push pills which is the reason we are all here. Alternative medicine is rediscovering it. The herbs that CD recommends are not pharmaceutical but they are powerful enough to gently induce change.

[Dude1988]

BBG i think its hard for you to relate to our issue you seem very insensitive. This isnt your run of the mill hormonal imbalance.
It's a complete inability to feel androgens includes dry skin, shrinking retracting genitals, destroyed libido, overnight aging. You literally wake up in a 90 years old body after the crash and it feels hopeless.

You remind me a bit of more plates more dates , very knowledgeable but also on lifetime HRT due to experimentation
I am not sure what cocktail of drugs you are on but trust me most of us are not here to gain muscles or optimize
in fact most would never have been interested in any steroid cycle
we just want to recover a normal average healthy and functional body

Your body is probably highly androgenic and the finasteride doesnt affect you negatively for now
Personally, i wouldnt let anyone i care for touch it.
You already know how it cuts off neurosteroids and how 5AR is involved in a cascade of downstream hormones that are all critical
On TRT nowadays most knowledgeable doctors recommend low dose progesterone and DHEA exactly because those might get affected
imagine adding finasteride to TRT ...I think its a ticking time bomb once there is weakness in your body boom crash
but some might be genetically more resistant who knows its literally russian roulette.

[Queens1984]

BBG i think its hard for you to relate to our issue you seem very insensitive. This isnt your run of the mill hormonal imbalance.
It's a complete inability to feel androgens includes dry skin, shrinking retracting genitals, destroyed libido, overnight aging. You literally wake up in a 90 years old body after the crash and it feels hopeless.

You remind me a bit of more plates more dates , very knowledgeable but also on lifetime HRT due to experimentation
I am not sure what cocktail of drugs you are on but trust me most of us are not here to gain muscles or optimize
in fact most would never have been interested in any steroid cycle
we just want to recover a normal average healthy and functional body

Your body is probably highly androgenic and the finasteride doesnt affect you negatively for now
Personally, i wouldnt let anyone i care for touch it.
You already know how it cuts off neurosteroids and how 5AR is involved in a cascade of downstream hormones that are all critical
On TRT nowadays most knowledgeable doctors recommend low dose progesterone and DHEA exactly because those might get affected
imagine adding finasteride to TRT ...I think its a ticking time bomb once there is weakness in your body boom crash
but some might be genetically more resistant who knows its literally russian roulette.

You hit the nail on the Head with everything you said. Sometimes I think is this really happening. Upswings I feel pretty good. Just have too constantly remind yourself STAY ON THE PROTOCOL that CD laid out for US

[Dude1988]

You hit the nail on the Head with everything you said. Sometimes I think is this really happening. Upswings I feel pretty good. Just have too constantly remind yourself STAY ON THE PROTOCOL that CD laid out for US

Yes it is our best bet. It is so hard sometimes, what kills me the most is the numbness I have to everything. I cannot feel pleasure.

Most people from doctors to steroids bros are uneducated on the origin of this drug. The way Merck 'discovered' and promoted this drug is beyond insidious.
They stumbled upon reports of pseudohermaphrodite in the Caribbean islands having perfect hairline and intact prostates.
Their main interest was always the hair loss because it is a much bigger market and prostates had many other treatments in development at the time.
However, they needed to get approval and running trials on old men was a much safer bet in terms of getting approval.
They did not have proper questionnaire for sexual well being and arising side effects would easily be attributed to aging. After all they are dealing with 60+ years sample

Think about developing a drug replicating the pseudohermaphrodite condition. These guys do not develop properly and have a micropenis. There are also a lot of literature about their psychology
they usually suffer a lot mentally it was thought from natural social exclusion but now we know it's because they had no real neurosteroids balance
They are prone to so many mental diseases. Those guys have high test and have more muscles usually than their normal counterpart. Proving that TEST isnt the key hormone for male. It is all about balance everything in the body is necessary and there for a reason.
It is crazy to want to replicate this unfortunate condition to "cure" anything. Imagine how sinister you have to be as a company to promote this to young healthy adults.
Merck emails are now becoming public and more will emerge. I think their CEO resigned recently. side note: check the ceo Kenneth C. Frazier. A bald man...you think he takes finasteride? Lol heck no.

Most things can be at least maintained with natural herbs and healthy lifestyle to an extent
for example some thing as simple as drinking green tea can very gently balance your DHT without any side effects (not applicable to PFS of course)

I took the pill after listening to doctors (frauds like most conventional doctors) on youtube who dont even take the pill themselves. My own doctor said there is zero harm in taking it and prescribed the pills in 2 minutes.
How could anyone knowingly take this pill after knowing this is absurd to me. It makes me angry. You are not on the path to great health. You are making the worst trade ever. It is not even a trade because once you get hit with PFS you will lose both your hair and your health.

[Queens1984]

Yes it is our best bet. It is so hard sometimes, what kills me the most is the numbness I have to everything. I cannot feel pleasure.

Most people from doctors to steroids bros are uneducated on the origin of this drug. The way Merck 'discovered' and promoted this drug is beyond insidious.
They stumbled upon reports of pseudohermaphrodite in the Caribbean islands having perfect hairline and intact prostates.
Their main interest was always the hair loss because it is a much bigger market and prostates had many other treatments in development at the time.
However, they needed to get approval and running trials on old men was a much safer bet in terms of getting approval.
They did not have proper questionnaire for sexual well being and arising side effects would easily be attributed to aging. After all they are dealing with 60+ years sample

Think about developing a drug replicating the pseudohermaphrodite condition. These guys do not develop properly and have a micropenis. There are also a lot of literature about their psychology
they usually suffer a lot mentally it was thought from natural social exclusion but now we know it's because they had no real neurosteroids balance
They are prone to so many mental diseases. Those guys have high test and have more muscles usually than their normal counterpart. Proving that TEST isnt the key hormone for male. It is all about balance everything in the body is necessary and there for a reason.
It is crazy to want to replicate this unfortunate condition to "cure" anything. Imagine how sinister you have to be as a company to promote this to young healthy adults.
Merck emails are now becoming public and more will emerge. I think their CEO resigned recently. side note: check the ceo Kenneth C. Frazier. A bald man...you think he takes finasteride? Lol heck no.

Most things can be at least maintained with natural herbs and healthy lifestyle to an extent
for example some thing as simple as drinking green tea can very gently balance your DHT without any side effects (not applicable to PFS of course)

I took the pill after listening to doctors (frauds like most conventional doctors) on youtube who dont even take the pill themselves. My own doctor said there is zero harm in taking it and prescribed the pills in 2 minutes.
How could anyone knowingly take this pill after knowing this is absurd to me. It makes me angry. You are not on the path to great health. You are making the worst trade ever. It is not even a trade because once you get hit with PFS you will lose both your hair and your health.

Yes Brother. I have lost everything because of this drug. Then too try and fix myself I went on TREN ACE. Only the most power steroid too body builders. When I came off I lost my MIND. Cd really helped me out with his compassion. I have had moments when I felt like the old me when I follow his protocol. The drug is just so Feminizing. I felt like I was losing my Identity as a MAN. It’s INSANE. Just follow the protocol that’s all I can SAY....

[Cdsnuts]

Yes Brother. I have lost everything because of this drug. Then too try and fix myself I went on TREN ACE. Only the most power steroid too body builders. When I came off I lost my MIND. Cd really helped me out with his compassion. I have had moments when I felt like the old me when I follow his protocol. The drug is just so Feminizing. I felt like I was losing my Identity as a MAN. It’s INSANE. Just follow the protocol that’s all I can SAY....

That's because you literally were.

At my worst, my face was round, chubby, no jawline, feminine fat deposits in places I've never had them before. I tend to naturally run on the lean side, so all of this was so bizarre and terrifying.

But you guys have one thing now that we didn't have before. A way out. So please.....take this thing and run with it. USE IT. You can and WILL have your life back. But this time, you'll be better then before fin.

[Queens1984]

That's because you literally were.

At my worst, my face was round, chubby, no jawline, feminine fat deposits in places I've never had them before. I tend to naturally run on the lean side, so all of this was so bizarre and terrifying.

But you guys have one thing now that we didn't have before. A way out. So please.....take this thing and run with it. USE IT. You can and WILL have your life back. But this time, you'll be better then before fin.

You are GOD too so many of us CD, all around the world. I really don’t understand how you figured all this out but thanks from all of us around the WORLD

[Cdsnuts]

You are GOD too so many of us CD, all around the world. I really don’t understand how you figured all this out but thanks from all of us around the WORLD

God! Well that's a first. I think that's a bit much, but I certainly appreciate the sentiment.

And seriously, save the thanks for when you're making your recovery post....that's all the thanks I need.

[Queens1984]

God! Well that's a first. I think that is a bit much, but I certainly appreciate the sentiment.

And seriously, save the thanks for when you're making your recovery post....that's all the thanks I need.

I PRAY🙏 For that DAY.

[BBG]

BBG, dude the study about the brain first thing says this: 'Brain. Glucose is virtually the sole fuel for the human brain, except during prolonged starvation.'

It's glucose man your body always convert to that and unless you are blind Keto diet believer there is no way around this.
I am sure there are some circumstantial exceptions that are in reality irrelevant to our situation but are you really going to argue based on minute details.

I'm aware that the brain uses glucose as its primary energy source. It switches to ketones once if you eat low carb long enough. That's why the brain fog occurs at the beginning of keto.

You tell me, which makes more sense to be the primary energy source for the body?

10% body fat on a 150 lb man is 15 lbs of fat.
That's 3,500 * 15 = 37,500 calories of fat stored in the human body. And that's a very lean human who is relatively lean.
There is under 1 lb or less than 900 calories of glycogen stored in a normal human body.


It's glucose man your body always convert to that and unless you are blind Keto diet believer there is no way around this

I'm not on keto and I don't advocate for keto unless someone is under active sedentary. No, cells don't "always convert" anything glucose. They take separate types of energy sources, the three main being fat/glucose/aminos. Fat doesn't get converted to sugar before it's

1603


it's dishonest because overall CD's statement is correct.

It's not dishonest, it's just the truth and how cells create energy from substrate.

I don't want to continue this discussion on ATP production in cells in this thread, It's already gone on far too long.


BBG i think its hard for you to relate to our issue you seem very insensitive. This isnt your run of the mill hormonal imbalance.
It's a complete inability to feel androgens includes dry skin, shrinking retracting genitals, destroyed libido, overnight aging. You literally wake up in a 90 years old body after the crash and it feels hopeless.

You remind me a bit of more plates more dates , very knowledgeable but also on lifetime HRT due to experimentation
I am not sure what cocktail of drugs you are on but trust me most of us are not here to gain muscles or optimize
in fact most would never have been interested in any steroid cycle
we just want to recover a normal average healthy and functional body

Your body is probably highly androgenic and the finasteride doesnt affect you negatively for now
Personally, i wouldnt let anyone i care for touch it.
You already know how it cuts off neurosteroids and how 5AR is involved in a cascade of downstream hormones that are all critical
On TRT nowadays most knowledgeable doctors recommend low dose progesterone and DHEA exactly because those might get affected
imagine adding finasteride to TRT ...I think its a ticking time bomb once there is weakness in your body boom crash
but some might be genetically more resistant who knows its literally russian roulette.

I don't intend to take away from anyone suffering from PFS, that's not my intention. I apologize to you guys if that's how it's come off.

[Dude1988]

keto is rarely good and eventually leads to lower test levels even more plates more dates has video explaining how it can cause hormone crash.
It shouldn't be recommended at all imo lowering your calories if you are sedentary is a much better alternative
I am not sure what you are trying to prove man. Does the body EXCLUSEVILY run on glucose? No. Is it a preferred and much easier source of energy for most cells? Yes.
you are arguing irrelevant technicalities. No one is trying to survive a year on glucose. This is in the context of brief juice fast
and your previous posts indicate you believe juice fasting causes insulin damage so if you want to argue keep it at that

[Dude1988]

I can see how CD's protocol is confusing if someone is not familiar with alternative or holistic medicine.
Concepts like detoxing for example aren't recognized by textbook science
dermatologists argued against sun exposure for decades but now we have data of benefits beyond vitamin D
so if you aren't on board with concepts detoxing, meditation, herbal therapy, wim hof ...ect then you will probably not understand the protocol
Mainstream science would deny everything here and tell you to take your anti-depressant along with the finasteride

[Cdsnuts]

I can see how CD's protocol is confusing if someone is not familiar with alternative or holistic medicine.
Concepts like detoxing for example aren't recognized by textbook science
dermatologists argued against sun exposure for decades but now we have data of benefits beyond vitamin D
so if you aren't on board with concepts detoxing, meditation, herbal therapy, wim hof ...ect then you will probably not understand the protocol
Mainstream science would deny everything here and tell you to take your anti-depressant along with the finasteride

Nailed it.

Or even say....juice feasting, for that matter.....lol.

Sometimes science can't see the forest for the trees. They look too close rather then stepping back and looking at the whole picture. EVERYTHING in life is connected in ways that we have just barely began to understand. Telling people to stay out of the sun is ludicris. I mean, it's only the giver of life for the whole planet......can't be good for you, right? The sun doesn't cause skin cancer....it's what's IN the body that changes to skin cancer. Just one example....I could go on....

[Cdsnuts]

I PRAY🙏 For that DAY.

No need to pray, unless that's your thing. You just have to stay true to the protocol and NEVER stop.

[Vahn]

Ended my 8 day juice feast today.

I lost quite a bit of weight and was cold all the time. Was very doable, but got damn I was becoming extremely hungry near the end.
Interesting stuff happened. Massive downswing (symptom wise and mentally) followed by a few days of massive upswing. Don't think it is necessarily related to the juice feast. I'm starting to believe the importance of mental health in all of this, and how it very much can have an influence on many of the physical symptoms. The fear of some mystical irreversible damage to my genitals still tends to creep up on me from time to time, but I'm trying to shut it down asap.

Back on paleo and herb rotation now. Gonna ease it in, still juice a bit, and some light meals.

Keeping you guys posted.

Cheers.

[Cdsnuts]

Ended my 8 day juice feast today.

I lost quite a bit of weight and was cold all the time. Was very doable, but got damn I was becoming extremely hungry near the end.
Interesting stuff happened. Massive downswing (symptom wise and mentally) followed by a few days of massive upswing. Don't think it is necessarily related to the juice feast. I'm starting to believe the importance of mental health in all of this, and how it very much can have an influence on many of the physical symptoms. The fear of some mystical irreversible damage to my genitals still tends to creep up on me from time to time, but I'm trying to shut it down asap.

Back on paleo and herb rotation now. Gonna ease it in, still juice a bit, and some light meals.

Keeping you guys posted.

Cheers.

The cleansing would definitely be related to your vigorous swings. Absolutely.

[Vahn]

Cdsnuts: quick question. I’m still trudging along with the protocol. However, I’ve been developing some puffy nipples and have become a bit worried. Is this possible on the herb rotation? I’m cycling practically every herb on the list for 3 months now, with daily pine pollen.

Or is PFS still giving me symptoms after being a year off?

Cheers

[Outlaw]

Hey man good job on the fast, I started mine today and your 8 days encourage me.

I am only 3 months off from a single pill. We can beat this thing

[Maxout777]

Cdsnuts: quick question. I’m still trudging along with the protocol. However, I’ve been developing some puffy nipples and have become a bit worried. Is this possible on the herb rotation? I’m cycling practically every herb on the list for 3 months now, with daily pine pollen.

Or is PFS still giving me symptoms after being a year off?

Cheers

You could be aromatizing the extra testosterone from the herbs. Might be a good idea to up the pine pollen dosage a bit. I don't have a lot of experience with this as I had the opposite problem in PFS, normally low estrogen issues.

[Cdsnuts]

You could be aromatizing the extra testosterone from the herbs. Might be a good idea to up the pine pollen dosage a bit. I don't have a lot of experience with this as I had the opposite problem in PFS, normally low estrogen issues.

Well this is exactly what I was going to suggest.......

You're probably aromatizing too much. What is your daily Pine Pollen dosage? You can dose up to three Tablespoons daily. This will mitigate the estrogen problem.

How is your diet?

My estro started high in the very beginning but as I progressed, my estro went too low. It all ends up balancing out in the end.

But to answer your other question, yes, you will still be experiencing symptoms after only a year off. Totally normal.

[Vahn]

Well this is exactly what I was going to suggest.......

You're probably aromatizing too much. What is your daily Pine Pollen dosage? You can dose up to three Tablespoons daily. This will mitigate the estrogen problem.

How is your diet?

My estro started high in the very beginning but as I progressed, my estro went too low. It all ends up balancing out in the end.

But to answer your other question, yes, you will still be experiencing symptoms after only a year off. Totally normal.

Heh, “only” a year off. That’s quite another perspective than the one I have. :)

I’m on the standard daily dosage recommended by LEH. I’ll try the megadose. Anything else that might help?

My diet is good, but my exercise is lacking, which limits carb backloading. So maybe not all that good. I’m quite lean though. Not much fat to house aromatase in. :)

My main problem is my mental health. Yesterday I actually dreamed taking my own life and being content with it. I’m almost ashamed to say so.

So thank you maxout and Cd. Your encouraging words really keep me going.

[Cdsnuts]

Heh, “only” a year off. That’s quite another perspective than the one I have. :)

I’m on the standard daily dosage recommended by LEH. I’ll try the megadose. Anything else that might help?

My diet is good, but my exercise is lacking, which limits carb backloading. So maybe not all that good. I’m quite lean though. Not much fat to house aromatase in. :)

My main problem is my mental health. Yesterday I actually dreamed taking my own life and being content with it. I’m almost ashamed to say so.

So thank you maxout and Cd. Your encouraging words really keep me going.

If it's really giving you an issue, you can always use this: https://iconicformulations.com/products/sustain-alpha?_pos=1&_sid=783a19274&_ss=r

You can run it for a few days or cycle it like you would the other herbs. It really squashes estro. But first I'd suggest going with the first option which is to up your pine pollen dose. You should notice results very quickly.

And yeah.....tell me about it. Probably the longest year of your life. It never happens fast enough.....for anyone....believe me. But, it does happen. You just have to grind it out.

[Queens1984]

Well this is exactly what I was going to suggest.......

You're probably aromatizing too much. What is your daily Pine Pollen dosage? You can dose up to three Tablespoons daily. This will mitigate the estrogen problem.

How is your diet?

My estro started high in the very beginning but as I progressed, my estro went too low. It all ends up balancing out in the end.

But to answer your other question, yes, you will still be experiencing symptoms after only a year off. Totally normal.

Cd when you say add in the pine pollen do you also mean the TINCTURE too with the powder. I use the pine pollen as a 21 day cycle but I believe my estrogen is alittle high too with itchy Chest?

[Vahn]

Cd when you say add in the pine pollen do you also mean the TINCTURE too with the powder. I use the pine pollen as a 21 day cycle but I believe my estrogen is alittle high too with itchy Chest?

The tincture is rotated. That’s how I understood it. The powder daily, if it suits you.


If it's really giving you an issue, you can always use this: https://iconicformulations.com/products/sustain-alpha?_pos=1&_sid=783a19274&_ss=r

You can run it for a few days or cycle it like you would the other herbs. It really squashes estro. But first I'd suggest going with the first option which is to up your pine pollen dose. You should notice results very quickly.

And yeah.....tell me about it. Probably the longest year of your life. It never happens fast enough.....for anyone....believe me. But, it does happen. You just have to grind it out.

Thank you, CD. Going to up the pine pollen first as you and maxout suggested. Ordered the sustain alpha just in case I’d need it. Might be interesting just to add it to the rotation later on.

I realise it must grow tiring after a while dealing with all my (and others’) sad catastrophic vibes, but I want you to know you’re saving lives.

[Queens1984]

The tincture is rotated. That’s how I understood it. The powder daily, if it suits you.



Thank you, CD. Going to up the pine pollen first as you and maxout suggested. Ordered the sustain alpha just in case I’d need it. Might be interesting just to add it to the rotation later on.

I realise it must grow tiring after a while dealing with all my (and others’) sad catastrophic vibes, but I want you to know you’re saving lives.

I understand I rotate the Tincture with the powder the same day, I’m just asking too lower Estrogen do I add the Tincture every few days also?

[Cdsnuts]

The tincture is rotated. That’s how I understood it. The powder daily, if it suits you.



Thank you, CD. Going to up the pine pollen first as you and maxout suggested. Ordered the sustain alpha just in case I’d need it. Might be interesting just to add it to the rotation later on.

I realise it must grow tiring after a while dealing with all my (and others’) sad catastrophic vibes, but I want you to know you’re saving lives.

Thank you.

It can get tiring....and it does. But guys have to know that whatever shit they're in right now currently.....they HAVE to know it's NOT permanent. I want my positive energy to radiate through this forum so those "catastrophic" vibes are pushed away, or changed to more positive ones.

It sucks, I get it.....but IT'S NOT FOREVER. You just gotta see it through. That means different things to different people. Means different time frames for different people.

Just stay away from anyone or place that tells you any different then what is being said here.....you WILL recover. YOU just have to do the work and keep away from all the static noise telling you otherwise.

- - - Updated - - -


I understand I rotate the Tincture with the powder the same day, I’m just asking too lower Estrogen do I add the Tincture every few days also?

Like he said....the tincture is rotated. The powder can be mega dosed daily if need be.

[Vahn]

Hi everyone,

I decided to give one last update before leaving for some time.

I've had some moments where I'm feeling better and seeing some slight fluctuations in my symptoms, but I always fall back to a baseline that won't budge. I'm doing the protocol and trying to trust the process, but if I'm honest, I'm not in a good place mentally. The severe penile shrinkage and numbness I've been having for so long makes me afraid it's permanent. I know people have recovered from this, including CD, so I know it's my anxiety saying these things. Nonetheless, I've been unable to cope with it, and have been close to suicide again as a result.

Even though everyone wants me to, I won't visit another psychiatrist. I don't want those shit SSRI's in my body. I've talked with my therapist and will visit her more frequently. I'm doing EMDR-therapy to heal the trauma of PFS and get my anxiety down. My last session was very intense and had me shaking and kicking chairs all over. Lots of tension and energy that cannot get out.

Why I intend to leave for some time: I've noticed I'm browsing this place, and yes, even PH (sorry), way too often. I'm ashamed to admit this, but it's compulsive. Some free time, quick check on SS or PH to see what's up. I even look up PSSD forums, Nofap forums, and all that shit just to convince myself it's not real or for reassurance that never comes. It's not useful, it's undermining the protocol because it casts massive doubt, and it keeps me in a PFS mentality constantly. I'm damaging myself doing this and only got myself to blame for it. I'm my biggest enemy. It needs to stop right now.

So I'm going to try what I haven't done in the past year, and that is stop living online unless I've got a specific question and just... do the protocol.

What I need to do better:
-More meditation and breathing exercises
-More exercise (I'm only managing HIIT 2x a week right now and some calisthenics)
-Pumping (I've followed the advice but it often hurts quite a bit for me, even when pumping very lightly)
-Stop wallowing
-Stop visiting forums
-Rest of the protocol is locked in

Timeline:
-PFS since january 2020.
-Discovered TMO in august 2020.
-Been on paleo diet since september 2020.
-Exercise, cold showers and sunning since october 2020.
-Xenoestrogens since november 2020.
-Herbs, daily supps and breathing since december 2020.
-Cleanse since february 2021.

Yes it's sloppy. Yes it's my fault.
I guess I've only been on protocol since february 2021.


Cheers

[Cdsnuts]

Hi everyone,

I decided to give one last update before leaving for some time.

I've had some moments where I'm feeling better and seeing some slight fluctuations in my symptoms, but I always fall back to a baseline that won't budge. I'm doing the protocol and trying to trust the process, but if I'm honest, I'm not in a good place mentally. The severe penile shrinkage and numbness I've been having for so long makes me afraid it's permanent. I know people have recovered from this, including CD, so I know it's my anxiety saying these things. Nonetheless, I've been unable to cope with it, and have been close to suicide again as a result.

Even though everyone wants me to, I won't visit another psychiatrist. I don't want those shit SSRI's in my body. I've talked with my therapist and will visit her more frequently. I'm doing EMDR-therapy to heal the trauma of PFS and get my anxiety down. My last session was very intense and had me shaking and kicking chairs all over. Lots of tension and energy that cannot get out.

Why I intend to leave for some time: I've noticed I'm browsing this place, and yes, even PH (sorry), way too often. I'm ashamed to admit this, but it's compulsive. Some free time, quick check on SS or PH to see what's up. I even look up PSSD forums, Nofap forums, and all that shit just to convince myself it's not real or for reassurance that never comes. It's not useful, it's undermining the protocol because it casts massive doubt, and it keeps me in a PFS mentality constantly. I'm damaging myself doing this and only got myself to blame for it. I'm my biggest enemy. It needs to stop right now.

So I'm going to try what I haven't done in the past year, and that is stop living online unless I've got a specific question and just... do the protocol.

What I need to do better:
-More meditation and breathing exercises
-More exercise (I'm only managing HIIT 2x a week right now and some calisthenics)
-Pumping (I've followed the advice but it often hurts quite a bit for me, even when pumping very lightly)
-Stop wallowing
-Stop visiting forums
-Rest of the protocol is locked in

Timeline:
-PFS since january 2020.
-Discovered TMO in august 2020.
-Been on paleo diet since september 2020.
-Exercise, cold showers and sunning since october 2020.
-Xenoestrogens since november 2020.
-Herbs, daily supps and breathing since december 2020.
-Cleanse since february 2021.

Yes it's sloppy. Yes it's my fault.
I guess I've only been on protocol since february 2021.


Cheers

Good luck man. You know where to come if you need to talk.

[Vahn]

Hi all,

It's been a while. Actually, only around 2 months since my last post, but somehow that seems quite a long time ago...

The reason is positive, in a way. I've been experiencing good upswings (and bad downswings, as one might expect). In fact, I recall a couple of times where I'd feel well on my way to recovery and the symptoms improved significantly. So much so that I stopped believing PFS existed at all at one point. How silly, but still, that's pretty huge. Didn't last long, of course, but it attests to the positive trend I'm on. Downswings are still frequent, but I feel my upswings are mostly a bit better than the last one. It's pretty funny how 'regular' I am, btw. It's like a sine wave. One week up, one week down. One week a suicidal mess, the next week I have actual libido and feel so much better.

I'm still in therapy too, which releases massive amounts of emotional tension. It's mostly because of the duration and physicality of this disease. The months creep by and I forget what it's like to have a normal life (and normal dick lol). But, I did have a couple of times where that 'normal' feeling returned to me, however brief.

I'm also back in the gym, which had been closed until recently, and can do proper backloading now.
Cdsnuts, I would ask for your advice on the following:

-In one of my upswings, I fell off the horse and took minoxidil again. My reasons were manifold, but the point is that it is not in the protocol. Would a short water fast/juice feast be in order? Diet is in check.
-I put Sustain Alpha in my herb rotation; however, can this be cycled on its own (for example, a week on, a week off)?
-Backloading is done on training days in the evening. Can I backload on non-training days when my body is still sore of the workout from the day before?
-I’ve been cycling the herbs for 7 months now. Would a prohormone run be of any benefit now?


Cheers everyone.

[Cdsnuts]

Hi all,

It's been a while. Actually, only around 2 months since my last post, but somehow that seems quite a long time ago...

The reason is positive, in a way. I've been experiencing good upswings (and bad downswings, as one might expect). In fact, I recall a couple of times where I'd feel well on my way to recovery and the symptoms improved significantly. So much so that I stopped believing PFS existed at all at one point. How silly, but still, that's pretty huge. Didn't last long, of course, but it attests to the positive trend I'm on. Downswings are still frequent, but I feel my upswings are mostly a bit better than the last one. It's pretty funny how 'regular' I am, btw. It's like a sine wave. One week up, one week down. One week a suicidal mess, the next week I have actual libido and feel so much better.

I'm still in therapy too, which releases massive amounts of emotional tension. It's mostly because of the duration and physicality of this disease. The months creep by and I forget what it's like to have a normal life (and normal dick lol). But, I did have a couple of times where that 'normal' feeling returned to me, however brief.

I'm also back in the gym, which had been closed until recently, and can do proper backloading now.
Cdsnuts, I would ask for your advice on the following:

-In one of my upswings, I fell off the horse and took minoxidil again. My reasons were manifold, but the point is that it is not in the protocol. Would a short water fast/juice feast be in order? Diet is in check.
-I put Sustain Alpha in my herb rotation; however, can this be cycled on its own (for example, a week on, a week off)?
-Backloading is done on training days in the evening. Can I backload on non-training days when my body is still sore of the workout from the day before?
-I’ve been cycling the herbs for 7 months now. Would a prohormone run be of any benefit now?


Cheers everyone.

Sorry for the delayed response. We have been growing and I have been slammed.

So....I can't believe you took minox after what you know now, but whatever, in the past. How long did you take it for? If it was for a week or two, you maybe able to get away without another cleanse.

Sustain can be run daily for two months if you wanted WHILE you're cycling your herbs. They work synergistically.

Backloading is an art and science all to itself. You have to get a feel for it, literally. Also, you use your own body fat as a marker to see if you're getting too many carbs. To answer your question, you can backload on non training days if your body fat is low and you need the weight. Once you start holding water and getting "jiggly" the morning after, you know you over did it. Back down on the size of the backload.

A prohormone run would be huge right now for you. Use the banner at the top of the page and use the code cdsnuts for 20% off. Still don't know why some guys skip the discount.....Grab some ultrahard and grab an alpha four as well. For your first cycle I would go for 30 days.

[Vahn]

Hello everyone.

Long time no see.

I decided to post an update when I received an e-mail notifying me of a DM I got.

I was fairly sloppy implementing the protocol in the beginning but eventually became fairly strict since my last post all through 2021/2022. The only thing I didn’t do consistently was the bathmate. It hurt too much, even with just a couple of pumps. I also didn’t do the prohormones.

Unfortunately, I cannot claim recovery, or much real progress for that matter. I stopped the protocol a while back. Even after a year doing the feast, paleo diet, HIIT, cold showers, sunning the boys, breath work, logging off, supplementation (cycled all of them as outlined), counseling and living my life as normally as I could, my libido was still shot, I still had ED, my genitals were still numb and deformed… just as bad as they were when I crashed, despite some upswings.

In fact, I’ve seen some better days off protocol. Not trying to dissuade people from doing the protocol at all, as it seems to work for many. Just saying how it went for me.

The veterans here might judge me for not adhering strictly enough, or long enough. Or maybe my better days off protocol were because I was on protocol earlier and a good indication for better things to come. And that might be true, I don’t know. But I did my best. I got laughed at and ridiculed for my diet changes, for taking a supplement every afternoon, for not drinking anymore… I didn’t care. I did what I had to do. Was I perfect? No. But I did as best I could.

So be your own judge. I just stopped seeing the use in doing all of it when even a year later nothing had changed, really. Sometimes up, mostly down, no real upward trend. Maybe I’m one of those who needs years on protocol to see actual improvement, I don’t know.

My penile tissue is still numb and completely destroyed. My testicles are still shrunken and weightless. It just never stops. It’s always there in some capacity, even during upswings. I guess I didn’t have much hope anymore of it ever returning to normal after all this time, and with that, the hope I vested in the protocol went with it.

I hate to come bearing bad news and I want to reiterate that the protocol does seem to work for many. But this is how it is for me. I’m not trying to fear monger, I’m just laying it out as it is. This is my reality (not necessarily yours).

I still live a healthy lifestyle. Maybe I’ll return to the protocol when I see the light and find hope again.

Good luck everyone. You’re all warriors.

[GoldenSun]

Hello everyone.

Long time no see.

I decided to post an update when I received an e-mail notifying me of a DM I got.

I was fairly sloppy implementing the protocol in the beginning but eventually became fairly strict since my last post all through 2021/2022. The only thing I didn’t do consistently was the bathmate. It hurt too much, even with just a couple of pumps. I also didn’t do the prohormones.

Unfortunately, I cannot claim recovery, or much real progress for that matter. I stopped the protocol a while back. Even after a year doing the feast, paleo diet, HIIT, cold showers, sunning the boys, breath work, logging off, supplementation (cycled all of them as outlined), counseling and living my life as normally as I could, my libido was still shot, I still had ED, my genitals were still numb and deformed… just as bad as they were when I crashed, despite some upswings.

In fact, I’ve seen some better days off protocol. Not trying to dissuade people from doing the protocol at all, as it seems to work for many. Just saying how it went for me.

The veterans here might judge me for not adhering strictly enough, or long enough. Or maybe my better days off protocol were because I was on protocol earlier and a good indication for better things to come. And that might be true, I don’t know. But I did my best. I got laughed at and ridiculed for my diet changes, for taking a supplement every afternoon, for not drinking anymore… I didn’t care. I did what I had to do. Was I perfect? No. But I did as best I could.

So be your own judge. I just stopped seeing the use in doing all of it when even a year later nothing had changed, really. Sometimes up, mostly down, no real upward trend. Maybe I’m one of those who needs years on protocol to see actual improvement, I don’t know.

My penile tissue is still numb and completely destroyed. My testicles are still shrunken and weightless. It just never stops. It’s always there in some capacity, even during upswings. I guess I didn’t have much hope anymore of it ever returning to normal after all this time, and with that, the hope I vested in the protocol went with it.

I hate to come bearing bad news and I want to reiterate that the protocol does seem to work for many. But this is how it is for me. I’m not trying to fear monger, I’m just laying it out as it is. This is my reality (not necessarily yours).

I still live a healthy lifestyle. Maybe I’ll return to the protocol when I see the light and find hope again.

Good luck everyone. You’re all warriors.

I was reading through your log, didn't you say you had moments where you felt like the PFS wasn't even effecting you?

[Vahn]

I’ve had upswings. I’ve had them when I was off protocol too.

These were moments where I basically tried to convince myself PFS isn’t real, just to cope. Not that I was cured, of course.

Ultimately, nothing fundamentally changed for me, especially in the shrinkage part. You might be different.

[Nexus9987]

I’ve had upswings. I’ve had them when I was off protocol too.

These were moments where I basically tried to convince myself PFS isn’t real, just to cope. Not that I was cured, of course.

Ultimately, nothing fundamentally changed for me, especially in the shrinkage part. You might be different.

Hello,

Like you, I used saw palmetto and was severely affected. I am 6-7 months off saw palmetto PFS from a single topical dose and reading your story and symptoms pretty much says my story.

I got few questions to ask if that is ok.
Have intense gym sessions helped your symptoms? specially ED?
Have you got hard flaccid symptoms?
Have you got any nerve pain (neuropathy on hands and feet)?

Please dont give up!

[Vahn]

It started off as hard flaccid yes. Now it’s more often dead, wrinkled and weightless. But it sometimes switches between the two.

Exercising sometimes made it a bit better, sometimes worse. I tried not to analyse it too much.

No noticeable nerve pain. I did have some skin numbness on my arms and neck for quite a while.

[GoldenSun]

How long were you on the protocol? Meaning after the fast.

It's just so sad to hear someone give up, I'm in a bad place too man but I just cant give up, especially after talking to real people who have gotten cured.
I wish you the best brother. It's just really depressing to hear news like this.

[Vahn]

How long were you on the protocol? Meaning after the fast.

It's just so sad to hear someone give up, I'm in a bad place too man but I just cant give up, especially after talking to real people who have gotten cured.
I wish you the best brother. It's just really depressing to hear news like this.

I juice feasted in February last year. I was on protocol until around the same date this year.

A lot of people get better, so you do you. I see that you’ve had long periods where you’ve felt a lot better. Hang on to those.

I’m just giving my experience. I have quite a bit of physical changes that just don’t get better, no matter what I do.

[Cdsnuts]

I juice feasted in February last year. I was on protocol until around the same date this year.

A lot of people get better, so you do you. I see that you’ve had long periods where you’ve felt a lot better. Hang on to those.

I’m just giving my experience. I have quite a bit of physical changes that just don’t get better, no matter what I do.

This is not typical of the protocol results. It's the exact opposite actually.

You were doing 100% of the protocol for how long?

[Vahn]

This is not typical of the protocol results. It's the exact opposite actually.

You were doing 100% of the protocol for how long?

My timeline is somewhere in this thread. I implemented it slowly since August 2020, but started counting officially since February 2021, when I feasted and got off all medications. I cycled all supplements and herbs (LEH), did HIIT 2/3 times a week, paleo diet, meditation (and counseling), cold showers every day, sun exposure, red light and IR on the boys, no alcohol, as little xenoestrogens as possible... the works. Was I on 100%? Not completely. I'd say around 90%. I managed nofap to around two weeks at most (no porn was not a problem however). Weight training was OK but never anything like before, when I'd go for like 4/5 days a week. Now I did 2 days. No energy I guess, but forced myself to go regardless.

The only thing I didn't do was the bathmate. I got two models, followed your advice but both of them hurt me too much, even with just a couple of pumps (shooting pains through my penis), so I decided against it after using it a couple of times a week for a month or three.

I stopped somewhere in February this year.

I know you're gonna say I had to do 100%, but with respect, if 90% for a year doesn't make much difference, I doubt 100% (and pushing through the pain of the bathmate) would.

I'm not like you I suppose. I always admired your positive energy. Even though I'm still here, which I consider quite an achievement. I really tried, but seeing the tissues of my genitals destroyed every day for the past two years, despite doing my best to cure myself, is too much for me.

Because of this, I'm in a terrible spot and this disease is getting the better of me.

Maybe I need more time and consistency, as you so often put it.

Anyway, this is just my experience and I won't bother anyone with it anymore. If I ever do get better, I'll let you guys know for sure.

PS I want to reiterate to anyone reading that you should just do the protocol, as most seem to fare well on it. Don't let my experience drag you down (for which I apologise), but my experience is what it is. I won't censure it.

[PashaSolid]

My timeline is somewhere in this thread. I implemented it slowly since August 2020, but started counting officially since February 2021, when I feasted and got off all medications. I cycled all supplements and herbs (LEH), did HIIT 2/3 times a week, paleo diet, meditation (and counseling), cold showers every day, sun exposure, red light and IR on the boys, no alcohol, as little xenoestrogens as possible... the works. Was I on 100%? Not completely. I'd say around 90%. I managed nofap to around two weeks at most (no porn was not a problem however). Weight training was OK but never anything like before, when I'd go for like 4/5 days a week. Now I did 2 days. No energy I guess, but forced myself to go regardless.

The only thing I didn't do was the bathmate. I got two models, followed your advice but both of them hurt me too much, even with just a couple of pumps (shooting pains through my penis), so I decided against it after using it a couple of times a week for a month or three.

I stopped somewhere in February this year.

I know you're gonna say I had to do 100%, but with respect, if 90% for a year doesn't make much difference, I doubt 100% (and pushing through the pain of the bathmate) would.

I'm not like you I suppose. I always admired your positive energy. Even though I'm still here, which I consider quite an achievement. I really tried, but seeing the tissues of my genitals destroyed every day for the past two years, despite doing my best to cure myself, is too much for me.

Because of this, I'm in a terrible spot and this disease is getting the better of me.

Maybe I need more time and consistency, as you so often put it.

Anyway, this is just my experience and I won't bother anyone with it anymore. If I ever do get better, I'll let you guys know for sure.

PS I want to reiterate to anyone reading that you should just do the protocol, as most seem to fare well on it. Don't let my experience drag you down (for which I apologise), but my experience is what it is. I won't censure it.


I hope this doesn’t come off as obnoxious, not at all my intent as I want the best for you even though I don’t know you personally at all but feel a sense of closeness given we’re all victims of 5AR inhibitors but, do you have an alternative planned? You did say you stopped the protocol awhile back for a bit, looking at your timeline if you were doing the protocol 90+% it seems like that was about a year if my math serves me correctly? You were also on SSRIs which could be an additional hurdle, maybe the minoxidil pushed you back a little more?

Listen man I’d just hate to see you throw in the towel, you seemed to have been consistent for a time. Maybe you were a few months away from a major breakthrough? I just don’t think modern western medicine has the answers, you’ve experienced that yourself with the experts you’ve seen hardly even acknowledging your condition.

[Vahn]

I hope this doesn’t come off as obnoxious, not at all my intent as I want the best for you even though I don’t know you personally at all but feel a sense of closeness given we’re all victims of 5AR inhibitors but, do you have an alternative planned? You did say you stopped the protocol awhile back for a bit, looking at your timeline if you were doing the protocol 90+% it seems like that was about a year if my math serves me correctly? You were also on SSRIs which could be an additional hurdle, maybe the minoxidil pushed you back a little more?

Listen man I’d just hate to see you throw in the towel, you seemed to have been consistent for a time. Maybe you were a few months away from a major breakthrough? I just don’t think modern western medicine has the answers, you’ve experienced that yourself with the experts you’ve seen hardly even acknowledging your condition.

I’ve never been on SSRIs. I was on Wellbutrin, a NDRI, but got off in February 2021, before I feasted.

Maybe a breakthrough was just a few months away, could be. I just saw no use in it anymore after a year of no change.

I have no alternative but will keep a healthy lifestyle. More importantly, I must find hope again, my life depends on it.

[Cherry]

I’ve never been on SSRIs. I was on Wellbutrin, a NDRI, but got off in February 2021, before I feasted.

Maybe a breakthrough was just a few months away, could be. I just saw no use in it anymore after a year of no change.

I have no alternative but will keep a healthy lifestyle. More importantly, I must find hope again, my life depends on it.

Have you tried Prohormones yet?

For me, nothing really improved my baseline but prohormones.

Cycled in combination with the rest of the protocol you can shift some serious chemistry in your body. If you haven't tried it, I'd highly recommend it.

[Vahn]

Have you tried Prohormones yet?

For me, nothing really improved my baseline but prohormones.

Cycled in combination with the rest of the protocol you can shift some serious chemistry in your body. If you haven't tried it, I'd highly recommend it.

I haven’t. I cycled the herbs because of their alleged “hollistic” action, which made more sense to me, as PFS is a systemic syndrome with unclear mechanism.

Prohormones sounded more like a “boost your T” type of solution, but I do not have low T. I might be wrong about this. I don’t know much about prohormones. Not trying to make blanket statements.

Nevertheless, the protocol should have been enough to induce some change. I’m not confident a prohormone would change that.

That’s how I feel about it, anyway.

[Thetfordboy]

Don't give up so easily mate. How do you know the prohormones won't work unless you at least try? The thing about the protocol is that people react differently so that you hear of some people feeling nothing of the herbs and then excelling when the prohormones started and then you hear recovery stories where the person didn't even use the prohormones as they responded so well to the herbs and dieting. You just need to try.

[Vahn]

Don't give up so easily mate. How do you know the prohormones won't work unless you at least try? The thing about the protocol is that people react differently so that you hear of some people feeling nothing of the herbs and then excelling when the prohormones started and then you hear recovery stories where the person didn't even use the prohormones as they responded so well to the herbs and dieting. You just need to try.

I don't agree with the adverb "easily". I've been doing this for a long time and have been suffering for even longer.

I'll be honest: throwing prohomones at it just sounds like a wild stab in the dark. I have no idea what I'd actually be fixing with it, since PFS is not just low T. I am very cautious of making it even worse.

[Thetfordboy]

Well there's no stories of it being made worse by the prohormones. Look I get it,its shit and a nightmare. But you need to step back sometimes,try the hormones. If you aren't improving then what is there to lose?
You can't say you followed the protocol relentlessly and it didn't work then say later you left out a major part of it. Man take a deep breath and try again.

[xxaleksi]

Yea honestly I’d just give the prohormones a shot and see how you feel. Since you’re a saw palmetto user I’d probably go with ultra hard stacked with alpha four seeing as you probably have low estrogen unlike fin guys who have high e2

Whenever I felt like I wasn’t making any progress, a cycle would kickstart me into another ”level” so to speak

[Vahn]

Well there's no stories of it being made worse by the prohormones. Look I get it,its shit and a nightmare. But you need to step back sometimes,try the hormones. If you aren't improving then what is there to lose?
You can't say you followed the protocol relentlessly and it didn't work then say later you left out a major part of it. Man take a deep breath and try again.

The prohormones are NOT part of the protocol. So yes, I can say I followed it.

[Vahn]

Yea honestly I’d just give the prohormones a shot and see how you feel. Since you’re a saw palmetto user I’d probably go with ultra hard stacked with alpha four seeing as you probably have low estrogen unlike fin guys who have high e2

Whenever I felt like I wasn’t making any progress, a cycle would kickstart me into another ”level” so to speak

My E2 was normal, not low. My T was maybe a bit lowish, but last time I checked it was normal (550ng). That's why I'm reluctant. PFS is not really about balancing specific hormones, so why do I need to target them specifically? Not trying to be a dick, I'm just trying to be rational about this.

[Cdsnuts]

My E2 was normal, not low. My T was maybe a bit lowish, but last time I checked it was normal (550ng). That's why I'm reluctant. PFS is not really about balancing specific hormones, so why do I need to target them specifically? Not trying to be a dick, I'm just trying to be rational about this.

The reason prohormones, especially the DHT based ones speed up the process is because they help regenerate 5ar, which because of it's inhibition (due to propecia/saw palmetto) is the cause of most all PFS issues. Not to mention they flood the already starved body and brain with DHT, which 5ar inhibitors destroy production of, among other things.

[xxaleksi]

The reason prohormones, especially the DHT based ones speed up the process is because they help regenerate 5ar, which because of it's inhibition (due to propecia/saw palmetto) is the cause of most all PFS issues. Not to mention they flood the already starved body and brain with DHT, which 5ar inhibitors destroy production of, among other things.

Yup exactly. When I first crashed I fell into the rabbit hole of all the theories on what PFS is, how it’s just gut related, electrolytes, potassium, all that crap lol. But as I got more experience with my own symptoms and recovery I realized how pretty much all of it can be explained by 5ar1 and 5ar2 inhibition and the downstream effects, even the most severe neurological sides I had.

[Vahn]

The reason prohormones, especially the DHT based ones speed up the process is because they help regenerate 5ar, which because of it's inhibition (due to propecia/saw palmetto) is the cause of most all PFS issues. Not to mention they flood the already starved body and brain with DHT, which 5ar inhibitors destroy production of, among other things.

I mean, shouldn’t the protocol for a year have helped with that already? I’ve had my upswings, but my genitals are after all this time still, well, destroyed, you could say. I’m at a loss.

[PashaSolid]

I mean, shouldn’t the protocol for a year have helped with that already? I’ve had my upswings, but my genitals are after all this time still, well, destroyed, you could say. I’m at a loss.


It’s far more often the case that a year is not enough time for guys to recover. You said you don’t have low T and you’re right in that it’s not so simple as “boost your T” but lighter beard growth and body hair growth which you said you have are all textbook low DHT symptoms. And we know that DHT is the player in all secondary sex characteristics which include erectile function. A whole host of things are at play and they vary by individual but on the flow chart they all reduce back to 5AR depletion as stated by the guys above. Stick with the protocol, you’ve been doing it for a year so it should already be part of your life pretty much so why stop it now? I mean the protocol is great for all men pfs or not. Herbs, breath work, cold showers, diet exercise… not much else to it.

Stick with it while/if you plan on searching whatever resources are out there that you feel may ease your mind.

[Readytonut]

I mean, shouldn’t the protocol for a year have helped with that already? I’ve had my upswings, but my genitals are after all this time still, well, destroyed, you could say. I’m at a loss.


What do you mean with destroyed? Maybe if youve tried the prohormone protocol and the normal protocol long enough and still didn’t see ayn result you should consider stuff like HCG?

[xxaleksi]

He should try the DHT prohormone, not HCG. If his 5ar isn’t working then he can have all the test in the world but still no dick. Genitals need DHT to function and prevent atrophy, not testosterone.

As someone who’s been there, just do it...not trying to be an asshole at all.

[Kashemir]

What do you mean atrophy?
It is possible to have atrophy with PFS?
Because I’m also having troubles with reduced size of testicles

[xxaleksi]

Yes, I had penile and testicular atrophy from fin. It did come back after DHT cycles though, so no need to worry.

[Kashemir]

Ah, good. I though you meant unreversed atrophy

[Cdsnuts]

He should try the DHT prohormone, not HCG. If his 5ar isn’t working then he can have all the test in the world but still no dick. Genitals need DHT to function and prevent atrophy, not testosterone.

As someone who’s been there, just do it...not trying to be an asshole at all.

This ^^^^^^

[Cdsnuts]

I mean, shouldn’t the protocol for a year have helped with that already? I’ve had my upswings, but my genitals are after all this time still, well, destroyed, you could say. I’m at a loss.

The protocol for a year has helped with alot, just not what you wanted it to help with on your timeline and in the order you wanted it to happen. That's not how this works.

It will work, but like has been repeated ad nauseum.....6mo-2yrs is the general timeline for recovery. You're only half way through, and that's if you've been 100%

It seems to me you're cutting off your nose to spite your face on this one. Read the board. The PH's have tremendously sped up the recovery of many. Why you are so hesitant to use something that can help you so greatly is beyond me.

[Readytonut]

Yea honestly I’d just give the prohormones a shot and see how you feel. Since you’re a saw palmetto user I’d probably go with ultra hard stacked with alpha four seeing as you probably have low estrogen unlike fin guys who have high e2

Whenever I felt like I wasn’t making any progress, a cycle would kickstart me into another ”level” so to speak

Yeah you’re right that makes more sense. I am also on the hunt for the prohormones but i cant find any stores that have it available in germany. There is only one store and i have to wait until a new batch arrives which fucking sucks.

I definitely have to ask around at some local bodybuilding forums to source some stuff. I really doubt that my doc would prescribe me something like that. He wanted me to take Arimidex which im really not willing to take.

Btw how do you know if you have to take androhard or ultrahard? Is there even a difference?

[Cdsnuts]

Yeah you’re right that makes more sense. I am also on the hunt for the prohormones but i cant find any stores that have it available in germany. There is only one store and i have to wait until a new batch arrives which fucking sucks.

I definitely have to ask around at some local bodybuilding forums to source some stuff. I really doubt that my doc would prescribe me something like that. He wanted me to take Arimidex which im really not willing to take.

Btw how do you know if you have to take androhard or ultrahard? Is there even a difference?

Ultimately it comes down to a matter of preference. The ultimate goal is the same regardless of which one you use.

[Vahn]

Why you are so hesitant to use something that can help you so greatly is beyond me.

I have read the board and I'm just not convinced they help consistently based on what I've read (not denying those who did great on them, of course). If I was sure it would help, I would have obviously done so already. This is not me willingly denying help.

You could argue to just try it, but I've become, understandably, very cautious of tinkering with things I don't understand. I have too many questions regarding PH use, their mechanism and how they relate to PFS pathology, than I'm comfortable with. Questions that I didn't have with the protocol, as the latter is more of a holistic set and forget approach. I realise now that PH's do more than just "boost T", but if I'm told to grab an Alpha Four because I probably have low E2, when I don't, you can understand why I'm cautious. And if I'm not taking it specifically to target E2, than why is it relevant in the first place? Again, I'm not trying to be a dick about this or trying to deny they work for some people. I just don't understand.

That aside, I've had a couple of members reach out to me who did well on them (thanks!), and I might try it in the future, but I'd have to get back on protocol first. I would also love to bounce off some of these questions with someone knowledgeable.

Also, shoutout to Damn, who was very kind to speak to me the other day over skype for encouragement and feedback. I really appreciate it man.

[Vahn]

He should try the DHT prohormone, not HCG. If his 5ar isn’t working then he can have all the test in the world but still no dick. Genitals need DHT to function and prevent atrophy, not testosterone.

As someone who’s been there, just do it...not trying to be an asshole at all.

Thank you for the words of encouragement. I took no offence in your comment at all.

[blackkey96]

xxaleksi Hey dude congrats on your recovery. Just a question because I had been following your thread since I crashed. Did your atrophy recover from the bathmate like your chat says or did it recover from prehormones? Which one is it?

[Cdsnuts]

xxaleksi Hey dude congrats on your recovery. Just a question because I had been following your thread since I crashed. Did your atrophy recover from the bathmate like your chat says or did it recover from prehormones? Which one is it?

Please keep Vahns thread on topic.

If you want to ask him, bring it up on his thread. It's only polite.

Atrophy will reverse in time simply by doing the protocol. You can't attribute it to one thing. All guys think they have something "worse" or "are different" then the other sufferers.......they are not.

[Zerolibido]

You heard him b itch , the PRotocCol works for every man!
Get back in the ducking saddle !! Do the protocl!!!

[Zerolibido]

Are youbgundyr from reddit?
I feel younman I'm in the same place