Road to Recovery and Total Male Optimization

[jbone]

Hey Everyone,

Background: I was insecure about my hair loss and took finasteride for around 3.5 weeks back in Nov 2020. I crashed back in mid December 2020. The first few weeks post crash I was feeling totally depressed and at times suicidal because I was reading was PH and thinking pfs was permanent. Thankfully, I found this forum at the end of December, and reading the guidance of CD and everyone else has turned everything around for me. Now I have a ton of motivation to not only recover, but also develop a healthy routine that I can continue for the rest of my life. There aren't enough words to describe how appreciative I am of all your work and energy that you put into supporting the pfs community CD. Thank you and also thanks to everyone else in this community for guiding me in the right direction and keeping me on track.

Symptoms: One of the first symptoms I noticed was tenderness in my left breast and mild gynecomastia. I also had no more morning wood at this point. That's when I decided to stop taking fin, and a week after I stopped, I developed tinnitus and also my digestive system got totally messed up. A few days after that I had a full on crash and woke up with 0 libido, total erectile dysfunction, insomnia, brain fog started to develop, etc.
To list out all of my symptoms more clearly for reference:

Gynecomastia
Tinnitus
Severe Digestion Issues
Lack of libido
Erectile Dysfunction
Frequent urination
Anhedonia, this was one of my worst symptoms at first, but has improved a good amount over time
Brain-fog, lost my ability to do major critical thinking, terrible memory, concentration. This has been pretty tough as I have to work 50-60 hours a week in a job that requires a lot of mental energy
The brain fog also led to social anxiety, lack of confidence, I started stuttering at times
Insomnia, wake up 3-4 times a night, poor sleep quality, always have dark circles under eyes, felt like I was only getting a few hours of sleep
Dry mouth, especially at night
Extremely dry, itchy, bloodshot eyes
No oil production on face
New wrinkles on face
Inability to sweat
Extremely dry skin
Penile shrinkage, lack of blood flow when flaccid
My nuts are like half the normal size
Probably some I'm missing, but generally similar symptoms as everyone else


Current Update: I've been on the paleo diet, working out 5-6 times a week, cold showers twice a day since start of Jan 2021. In the last 2-3 weeks I've been able to take up everything in TMO, except I don't have time to get sun most days, and I wasn't able to do a fast or juice feast. I know that a cleanse would be extremely beneficial, especially with my gut issues, but I cant take any time off work and I didn't want to deal with a cleanse on top of work given how tired I am from work normally.

A lot of my symptoms have improved a good amount since really getting into the TMO routine, and going through the process of figuring out which herbs I respond well to. My digestion has made huge improvements compared to where it was before. I think part of this can be attributed to brone broth which I drink a bowl of twice a day. For the past week, I no longer wake up multiple times a night, my sleep quality still seems poor as I always have dark circles, but I have been feeling much better rested this past week, less brain fog, improvements in erection quality, my face no longer has dry patches, and I have started to sweat more.

The reason I'm posting is because today was the second time I tried Tongkat Ali in my herb rotation. The first time I took the recommended dose by LEH, or perhaps a bit less, and I had much worse sleep compared to usual that night. I don't know why I didn't take the first time as a lesson, but I took the same recommended dose for the second time today, and as a result my gynecomastia and breast tenderness has flared up again, and there's been an increase in brain-fog, as well as penile shrinkage/ED. Gyno had previously went away around 1-2 weeks after crashing and I haven't had any more issues with it until today. Moving forward, I'm going to avoid taking Tongkat Ali and stick with the rest of my herb rotation. I know this is just a temporary downswing, but I was curious if anyone had insight perhaps if this indicates anything about my hormonal profile, and if those indications should translate to anything I should keep in mind to avoid future gyno flare ups? Any input would be welcome, but no worries if not.

I have no doubts I'll make a full recovery as long as I keep up my routine and follow the protocol. I'll try to update my progress as best I can as I go along!

[Cdsnuts]

Hey Everyone,

Background: I was insecure about my hair loss and took finasteride for around 3.5 weeks back in Nov 2020. I crashed back in mid December 2020. The first few weeks post crash I was feeling totally depressed and at times suicidal because I was reading was PH and thinking pfs was permanent. Thankfully, I found this forum at the end of December, and reading the guidance of CD and everyone else has turned everything around for me. Now I have a ton of motivation to not only recover, but also develop a healthy routine that I can continue for the rest of my life. There aren't enough words to describe how appreciative I am of all your work and energy that you put into supporting the pfs community CD. Thank you and also thanks to everyone else in this community for guiding me in the right direction and keeping me on track.

Symptoms: One of the first symptoms I noticed was tenderness in my left breast and mild gynecomastia. I also had no more morning wood at this point. That's when I decided to stop taking fin, and a week after I stopped, I developed tinnitus and also my digestive system got totally messed up. A few days after that I had a full on crash and woke up with 0 libido, total erectile dysfunction, insomnia, brain fog started to develop, etc.
To list out all of my symptoms more clearly for reference:

Gynecomastia
Tinnitus
Severe Digestion Issues
Lack of libido
Erectile Dysfunction
Frequent urination
Anhedonia, this was one of my worst symptoms at first, but has improved a good amount over time
Brain-fog, lost my ability to do major critical thinking, terrible memory, concentration. This has been pretty tough as I have to work 50-60 hours a week in a job that requires a lot of mental energy
The brain fog also led to social anxiety, lack of confidence, I started stuttering at times
Insomnia, wake up 3-4 times a night, poor sleep quality, always have dark circles under eyes, felt like I was only getting a few hours of sleep
Dry mouth, especially at night
Extremely dry, itchy, bloodshot eyes
No oil production on face
New wrinkles on face
Inability to sweat
Extremely dry skin
Penile shrinkage, lack of blood flow when flaccid
My nuts are like half the normal size
Probably some I'm missing, but generally similar symptoms as everyone else


Current Update: I've been on the paleo diet, working out 5-6 times a week, cold showers twice a day since start of Jan 2021. In the last 2-3 weeks I've been able to take up everything in TMO, except I don't have time to get sun most days, and I wasn't able to do a fast or juice feast. I know that a cleanse would be extremely beneficial, especially with my gut issues, but I cant take any time off work and I didn't want to deal with a cleanse on top of work given how tired I am from work normally.

A lot of my symptoms have improved a good amount since really getting into the TMO routine, and going through the process of figuring out which herbs I respond well to. My digestion has made huge improvements compared to where it was before. I think part of this can be attributed to brone broth which I drink a bowl of twice a day. For the past week, I no longer wake up multiple times a night, my sleep quality still seems poor as I always have dark circles, but I have been feeling much better rested this past week, less brain fog, improvements in erection quality, my face no longer has dry patches, and I have started to sweat more.

The reason I'm posting is because today was the second time I tried Tongkat Ali in my herb rotation. The first time I took the recommended dose by LEH, or perhaps a bit less, and I had much worse sleep compared to usual that night. I don't know why I didn't take the first time as a lesson, but I took the same recommended dose for the second time today, and as a result my gynecomastia and breast tenderness has flared up again, and there's been an increase in brain-fog, as well as penile shrinkage/ED. Gyno had previously went away around 1-2 weeks after crashing and I haven't had any more issues with it until today. Moving forward, I'm going to avoid taking Tongkat Ali and stick with the rest of my herb rotation. I know this is just a temporary downswing, but I was curious if anyone had insight perhaps if this indicates anything about my hormonal profile, and if those indications should translate to anything I should keep in mind to avoid future gyno flare ups? Any input would be welcome, but no worries if not.

I have no doubts I'll make a full recovery as long as I keep up my routine and follow the protocol. I'll try to update my progress as best I can as I go along!

Welcome, and thank you for the kind words. It means alot.

Regarding the tonkat....it raises test alot compared to some of the other herbs, but it also has anti-aromatase enzymes in it, so it shouldn't give you problems, but your estrogen is high enough that it is. Bin it for a month or so and then add it back in to try.

And you are correct. If you go all in 100%, you will make a full recovery.

[jbone]

Thanks for the welcome and the advice CD. I'll wait a month or two and then try reintroducing at a lower dose.
I took the Tongkat Ali on friday and my gyno is still acting up today on Sunday. I'm worried now since it's getting to the point where the growth is noticeable and I'm not sure if it's going to go away even after it stops.
This past week I've been taking ashwagandha daily and then I took two days off, friday and saturday. I've also been taking spirulina, chlorella, bacopa, and royal jelly daily. I'm wondering if I should start taking ashwagandha again, in addition to the other supplements to help w the gyno, or if I should just take a break from the herbs/supplements altogether. I'm just paranoid I'm going to make things worse, any advice would be appreciated

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks for the welcome and the advice CD. I'll wait a month or two and then try reintroducing at a lower dose.
I took the Tongkat Ali on friday and my gyno is still acting up today on Sunday. I'm worried now since it's getting to the point where the growth is noticeable and I'm not sure if it's going to go away even after it stops.
This past week I've been taking ashwagandha daily and then I took two days off, friday and saturday. I've also been taking spirulina, chlorella, bacopa, and royal jelly daily. I'm wondering if I should start taking ashwagandha again, in addition to the other supplements to help w the gyno, or if I should just take a break from the herbs/supplements altogether. I'm just paranoid I'm going to make things worse, any advice would be appreciated

Any advice? My man....the whole protocol is your advice. Everything on TMO.

[jbone]

Thanks for keeping me on track CD. I've still been following the protocol, but for the herbs I've only been taking adaptogens the past few days. My gyno still hasn't gone away so I'm worried the more potent T boosting herbs might make it worse. After taking the Tongkat Ali last Friday, my sleep, brainfog, and erectile function have all been set back a lot as well. For some reason it seems like it caused a mini crash for me.

Since I skipped it at the start, and given my current state, I'm planning to start a bone broth cleanse within the next few days. It's a lot more feasible for me to do bone broth instead of juice since I can make large batches ahead of time.
My bad I'm sure this is already outlined somewhere, but can I keep working out during the cleanse? I assume not, but I'm currently on a PPL routine with the dumbells I have at home and do sprints twice a week. Should I stop exercising altogether or just reduce the intensity?

[Cdsnuts]

Thanks for keeping me on track CD. I've still been following the protocol, but for the herbs I've only been taking adaptogens the past few days. My gyno still hasn't gone away so I'm worried the more potent T boosting herbs might make it worse. After taking the Tongkat Ali last Friday, my sleep, brainfog, and erectile function have all been set back a lot as well. For some reason it seems like it caused a mini crash for me.

Since I skipped it at the start, and given my current state, I'm planning to start a bone broth cleanse within the next few days. It's a lot more feasible for me to do bone broth instead of juice since I can make large batches ahead of time.
My bad I'm sure this is already outlined somewhere, but can I keep working out during the cleanse? I assume not, but I'm currently on a PPL routine with the dumbells I have at home and do sprints twice a week. Should I stop exercising altogether or just reduce the intensity?

No....when you cleanse, you cleanse. READ THE SITE. You stop all activities except rest.

A bone broth cleanse is NOT the same as a water fast or juice feast.

Okay....when are you guys going to get it? You don't pick and choose which aspects of the protocol your want to do and which ones you don't. Well.....you can, but your results will reflect that.

Get out of it what you put into it. Period.

[Queens1984]

No....when you cleanse, you cleanse. READ THE SITE. You stop all activities except rest.

A bone broth cleanse is NOT the same as a water fast or juice feast.

Okay....when are you guys going to get it? You don't pick and choose which aspects of the protocol your want to do and which ones you don't. Well.....you can, but your results will reflect that.

Get out of it what you put into it. Period.

You have too stay on the protocol. I was feeling great. Stopped doing most of the protocol. I just found out I got COVID and man have I crashed. It’s been over 10 freaking years since I touched that poison. Unreal. If it wasn’t for CD and my Daughters I would not be here. Thanks CD for all you do.

[Cdsnuts]

You have too stay on the protocol. I was feeling great. Stopped doing most of the protocol. I just found out I got COVID and man have I crashed. It’s been over 10 freaking years since I touched that poison. Unreal. If it wasn’t for CD and my Daughters I would not be here. Thanks CD for all you do.

Shit man, sorry to hear it. And thank you for the kind words.

To clarify, you don't have to stay on the protocol for ever, but I do say, that even after you consider yourself recovered, wait a sold six months before declaring victory. If you fall into bad habits too quickly once coming off, you get sucked back down.

At least you know you will be feeling great again, AND you know what to NOT do this go around.

Could always be worse man.

[jbone]

No....when you cleanse, you cleanse. READ THE SITE. You stop all activities except rest.

A bone broth cleanse is NOT the same as a water fast or juice feast.

Okay....when are you guys going to get it? You don't pick and choose which aspects of the protocol your want to do and which ones you don't. Well.....you can, but your results will reflect that.

Get out of it what you put into it. Period.

Understood.
I'm going to stop being an idiot and do this shit right and fully commit. Hopefully with some planning I can start my juice cleanse this weekend.

[jbone]

You have too stay on the protocol. I was feeling great. Stopped doing most of the protocol. I just found out I got COVID and man have I crashed. It’s been over 10 freaking years since I touched that poison. Unreal. If it wasn’t for CD and my Daughters I would not be here. Thanks CD for all you do.

That's so unfortunate man. If you got yourself to a great state before then I'm sure you can do it again. Wishing the best for you, you got this
Thanks for the encouragement and motivation

[jbone]

CD one question I have, I remember reading in a different thread that you supported occasional use of DIM to help regulate estrogen levels. Can't find the thread anymore, but do you still think it's a good idea? It might have been a while ago so not sure if your opinion has changed. My gyno still isn't going away which is a big concern for me

[Queens1984]

That's so unfortunate man. If you got yourself to a great state before then I'm sure you can do it again. Wishing the best for you, you got this
Thanks for the encouragement and motivation

Brother without this site I’m Finished. This drug can make you have thoughts that just don’t make sense plus taking steroids too try and fix it did not help. I’m just going too restart the protocol that CD laid out and pray for the best... It’s a Scary road but just keep trusting CD. He’s been through it...

[BBG]

CD one question I have, I remember reading in a different thread that you supported occasional use of DIM to help regulate estrogen levels. Can't find the thread anymore, but do you still think it's a good idea? It might have been a while ago so not sure if your opinion has changed. My gyno still isn't going away which is a big concern for me

Hey I'm on CD but I can help with DIM. DIM is a known anti-estrogen. It's been shown to increase estrogen metabolism in the human body 3,3′-Diindolylmethane Modulates Estrogen Metabolism in Patients with Thyroid Proliferative Disease: A Pilot Study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3048776/) Essentially, DIM will help clear out estrogen faster from your body (but will not stop its production). It can be helpful when trying to reduce estrogen levels.

Unfortunately, for something like gynecomastia, you're going to have a hard time getting rid of it without an AI or SERM. That can be pharmaceutical or otherwise.

Iron Legion has Virtus which is a topical anti-estrogen

From a forum sponsor: virtus - socal-nutrition (https://www.socal-nutrition.com/search?type=product&q=virtus)
From the manufacturer themselves: https://iron-legion.com/products/virtus

Per this study Synthesis and biological evaluation of 4-imidazolylflavans as nonsteroidal aromatase inhibitors - PubMed (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15530990/) this compound was found to be only 2.2x less potent than the pharmaceutical letrozole which is used by many to get rid of gynecomastia.

[Cdsnuts]

CD one question I have, I remember reading in a different thread that you supported occasional use of DIM to help regulate estrogen levels. Can't find the thread anymore, but do you still think it's a good idea? It might have been a while ago so not sure if your opinion has changed. My gyno still isn't going away which is a big concern for me

Stay the course with the protocol, of course, but yes, there is nothing wrong with throwing it into your herb rotation. That being said, as BBG mentioned, that alone isn't going to fix the gyno.

It may get better on a nice androhard run, I've had success with others before using just the prohormones. We'll just have to keep an eye on it.