Some PCT Tips - Insulin, Carbs, Low Volume Training

[BBG]

I don't advise using insulin unless you've been training for 5+ years AND/OR have the physique to show it. 5 years of pure bodybuilding training.
This is from a member over at Dat's forum when talking about his PCT:

Summary:


1. 4 iu insulin in the morning
2. 6 iu insulin post workout
3. Low volume, high weight exercises
4. Cardio only when fed
5. Carb intake is higher

This protocol probably involves GHRP/GHRH peptide use as well. But he doesn't mention it. No mention of a SERM because it wasn't relevant, but obviously a SERM is going to be used in PCT.


Actually take a little bit closer look, this is not in reference to CPWO at all. It is my personal PCT protocol which, for 1 month after ceasing AAS, entails (for me) 4 iu insulin dosed in AM of workout days, and 6 iu PWO. On non-workout days I now moved the insulin dose to early-to-midafternoon (this should help keep cortisol rhythms naturally since insulin opposes cortisol).

So training is every other day, done in such a way that it doesn't stress the body too much (mentally easy exercises, done heavy but for low overall volume); cardio is done only in fed states to increase metabolic demand a bit, not fasted; and carb intake is as high as needed to meet hunger demands, but always clean (maybe 1-2 free eat cheat type sessions per week depending on my feelings about body comp at the time, etc. Mind you for me cheating is eating a bag of Quaker Quakes rice snacks or something, and going crazy on the ezekiel bread and homemade jam).

The only time I would advise going totally carbless is in a pendulum-swing prime, where you induce starvation pre-cycle. Even then it's only for 2 weeks and is part of a progression.

The key here is entering PCT lean, both for the hormonal benefits (less aromatase namely) and so you have juuust a little wiggle room without losing the look you worked for.

My most recent concept which seems to be a winner is the use of 200mg DNP for the last 10 days of the cycle taper, in the aim of achieving an anabolic rebound in early PCT. Kind of tricking the body with regards to set points* if you will.

*Dat hates when set point refers to anything other than adiposity but I think it makes an OK analogy for muscularity if you realize it isn't used in the literature that way.

[nate3993]

Dam. 10 iu a day is like the Mr. O stack. That sounds a bit high.

[h2s]

Dam. 10 iu a day is like the Mr. O stack. That sounds a bit high.

I would very much venture to say competitors of that level are using significantly more than 10iu.

There are recreational guys on boards that use that amount (not that I recommend it).

[nate3993]

MD article on Olympia Stack (http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php/98226-MD-article-on-Olympia-Stack)

This is the supposed stack for the Mr. O. It was an article in MD.

The most it says they do is 12 IU. Not that a lot of guys, look at Ronnie's belly, don't use more but around 10 iu's is what they're saying for pros. Even if u were to take half of what the pros take, it's still a huge, huge amount of hormones. That's assuming the article is accurate, but I'd believe the dosages. It's not like yate's supposed cycle where people were saying he took 5 grams of test a week which no one does.

[BBG]

I would recommend starting at half of those. If not, just 1 or 2 iu in the morning/post workout.

For instance, my next cycle I'll only be using 1 or 2 iu after each workout, and perhaps on off days in the morning.

Just enough to give myself physiological levels of insulin.

[burlyman30]

I would very much venture to say competitors of that level are using significantly more than 10iu.

There are recreational guys on boards that use that amount (not that I recommend it).

This is a case of do as I say, not as I do.... for I have used insulin in my competitive years. However, the result of something problematic occurring doesn't mean you end up with a headache. I means you can go into shock and die. People forget that and I want readers to know this.

[BBG]

More anecdotes for maintaining gains in PCT:


Originally Posted by devbot
I too, am for the first time integrating Novolog insulin into my PWO protocol. (though I am also taking anabolics) I am more concerned with gaining strength than accruing mass - but obviously I am going to grow on this.

Immediately PWO: 100mcg/50mcg GHRP-2/Mod-GRF (injected IM)
wait 15 minutes: 5iu of Novolog, then drink a Dextrose/Leucine/BCAA shake
20 minutes later: drink a large protein shake: milk/30g whey/2 eggs/Glutamine/Creatine
30 minutes later: eat a full meal

(I am also dosing 100mcg/50mcg GHRP-2/Mod-GRF every night before bed.)

My plan, though, is to start out slowly with 1iu of insulin and slowly ramp it up to 5iu's depending on tolerance. I also plan on testing my morning fasted blood glucose once a week to track any signs of insulin resistance.

I'd be interested in hearing some feedback on both your protocols and mine - especially the idea of taking insulin ED in the morning.

. .
db
. .
This is almost exactly what I did during PCT (so not on AAS) and I actually had more intense strength gains then when on AAS...I was blown away, about 2 weeks in...I was doing 7ui 20-25 mins after GHRP-2 and MOD GRF 1-29 100mcg each, which I did immediate PWO...I kept it liquid for the first 3 hours, then hour 3 I ate 250mg of animal protein, and added a small amount of oats/dex if my BG was hoovering too much below 5 (which in UK is about the equivalent of a 'normal' persons BG reading when they wake in the morning, so basically a fasted state....I think a big key was that I also limited carbs before my WO...so I was pretty glycogen depleted, plus I did HIIT most days, so when I did the peptide/slin PWO, I was pretty much glycogen depleted...and then in those 4 hours I would ram in 400carbs and 400 protein, which the bulk would go towards muscle/liver, and keeping my brain going to keep basic functions humming along. So I tried really hard to dose my carbs that would keep me as much as possible between 5-6 bg throughout the 4 hours...Along with massive strength increase, I lost about 1.5% bf, and my weight was bang on what it was at the end of my AAS cycle...so basically I added a decent amount of LBM along with the strength (which obviously game from the more intense IGF-1 release and upregulation of GH receptors etc as Dat shows...its not a great protocol for adding a ton of mass, or getting bigger, but it kicks butt for strength gains. If you want to get bigger than morning, and pre WO with a similar set up is required, but more solid food, which could lead to more tri-glyceride conversion, which is deposited bang into adipose tissue...not a big deal for a bb'er bulking, or a super heavyweight pl'er or strongman...but for a strength athlete who can't get big and fat, above protocol is awesome...but indeed, you won't get 'huge' on it, even if used with AAS...but with the AAS, it will add additional mass and strength...the strength is even more insane when on a moderate amount of test with a 19nor like deca or tren, throw in an oral like tbol or dbol, and boom, you're CNS will be a muscle fibre recruiting machine!!

[BBG]

I start with Clomid for three weeks and reduce the dosage and overlap it with Nolva in week four. I dose Nolva for 3 weeks thereafter.

In the first 3 weeks of PCT I use insulin everyday or IGF-1 LR3 or both. I use GHRH/GHRP everyday (just as I do everyday of my life)

After 7 weeks in the last day of Nolva I introduce an AI and run that by itself for three or four days.

Then I introduce some lower/moderate Nettle Root extract. What I want to do is slightly increase the free test by occupying just a little SHBG. I don't want to do anything but make a very slight impact. I want to be able to use the Nettle Root for 3 months and have it be effective this entire time AND I do not want it to cause shedding! A prostate pinch is not a good sign either.

If my hair starts to shed I either messed up or it is time to stop. See when you increase free test more test will be converted to DHT.

After 3 months I drop the nettle root extract. The slight increase in free test helped support strength ever so slightly.

Thats about it. My PCTs as you can see are very long. But they are designed to recover from 6 month cycles. My PCT is about as long as the cycle.

Then I stay off and learn to be natural again for another 6 months or more.

In my opinion this approach has allowed me to fully recover after years of experimentation.

[h2s]

This is a case of do as I say, not as I do.... for I have used insulin in my competitive years. However, the result of something problematic occurring doesn't mean you end up with a headache. I means you can go into shock and die. People forget that and I want readers to know this.

Very much agreed. It annoys me everytime I am flamed to hell for advocating against insulin usage for someone who is not extremely serious with the sport. I can understand playing with smaller doses, but the "bro, its safe, just utilize carbs" approach sends the wrong message to a guy excited over the fact he can buy it otc.

[BBG]

I think in an environment where people are intelligent and responsible, insulin is not a big problem. Glucose meter, glucose tabs+real food nearby, DO NOT SLEEP within 5 hours of using insulin and do your research. It's not hard.

I can't say I agree with the above PCT protocols as I have never personally used insulin. I'll be using it soon enough, though, on cycle. And then in PCT.