Degenerative disc. any treatment

[pman42]

Like the title says, degenerative disc disease L4-L5. anything that can be done for this?

[Cobalt]

I believe you can get surgery to fix it, not speaking from experience though.

[iron]

there are cutting edge chiros that can correct this, here where i live there are 2 good clinics out of the 100's in portland/vancouver area so be wise....but i got quoted at 3400$ to correct my 5 perforations and my straight as an arrow spine within 6 months of treatment, its killing me not to be able to lift

[Sperwer]

I've mentioned this before - maybe on the PP forum - but it probably will be of little use to you. Here in Seoul, there is an oriental medical hospital - Jasaeng -that has pioneered a treatment involving a local version of chiropractics, bee venom injections and an herbal tonic (the active ingredient of which has been identified and standardized. I went in with cumulative L4 and L5 damage that presented in about 4 incidents over 2-3 years that left me down for as long as a week at a time (including one episode of help I've fallen and I can't get up when I had to lay in the yard for three hours until Wifey got home), with discs that were black, compressed like the original rubber bushings from the steering assembly of 1 '55 Chevy after 50 years of wear and tear, and squashed out beyond the vertebrae and pressing directly on my spinal cord. After nine months, my disks were plumped back up like powdered sugar donuts, not quite to OEM std, but still quite good and more of a dark gray (instead of either black or the OEM grayish white) and I didn't have any more stuff hanging out on my spine. I started deadlifting again 2 months after that and have been going good for six years ever since. It was very spendy, though, and I've no idea about whether the treatment is available anywhere else. I'll inquire, though, if you want.

[pman42]

Yes I would be very interested as to whether it is available elsewhere. and how much are we talkin?

I've been looking into prolotherapy.

[Rulk]

I have had too many of those moments myself Sperwer, the " I've fallen I can't get up " variety. Losing weight and strengthening the abs, lowerback were good. Getting my hams to losen up was a big deal too, which is a big culprit for back strain/pain. But yeah my L5 was so compressed, but I opted out of getting shots and possibly surgery and decided to do other things about it.

[Sperwer]

Noa:

Yep, all those are good and needed, too. I began my journey in bodybuilding as part of my recovery from my last episode of help I've fallen and I can't get up, and I'm sure that a big part of the reason for the absence of any further disk problems has been the systematic strengthening of my back muscles, abs, etc etc and increased posterior and anterior chain flexibilty. I'm not sure I could have regenerated my disks in the first place that way, though, and credit the treatment I received with doing so. As far as I was concerned it was the only plausible option since the standard medical advise I got was to have my vertebrae surgically fused - which didn't sound very appealing and which I knew left some guys I know effectively disabled in significant ways that I was not willing to accept.

PMAN42. I'll see what I can find out. My recollection was that the list price of the eight office visits for manipulation and the administration of the bee venom injections and the cost of the meds (the injections and the voodoo juice - which looked like medium crude and tasted like used motor oil) -- was about 1 large/month for nine months. I got it for less because everything but the herbals was covered by the local govt medical plan, but I think I still shelled out 500-600 for the juice.

[Rulk]

@Sperwer

Yeah I heard too many bad things about surgery and after awhile I was not even considering it an option. Just too many relapses and not enough guarantee of success. The shots were a temporary fix to a life long issue. Really the best thing to do is to take care of yourself naturally imo.

Oh and the pain meds... A road bette,r if less travelled.

[pman42]

well I'm looking into a reverse hyper. can't afford one but perhaps I could make a "poor man's" reverse hyper.

I'm taking a ton of supplements. working on mobility. stretching. all that. i hope all this helps. i really don't want this to continue

[Rulk]

well I'm looking into a reverse hyper. can't afford one but perhaps I could make a "poor man's" reverse hyper.

I'm taking a ton of supplements. working on mobility. stretching. all that. i hope all this helps. i really don't want this to continue

If you have a bench at home, of the gym kind, lay on that thing like it's a surfboard, with your legs hanging off the end, knees bent and almost touching the floor ( depending on how tall you are ). From there, lift your knees and feet off of the ground, while "Hugging" the bench with your upper body. It's a reverse hyper, that is easier to do, but you can make it harder. Great for the back, glutes... Let me know what ya think!

[pman42]

^^ That was my general idea, but I guess the issue is when I start using weight to actually decompress the spine (which is why Louie Simmons invented the reverse hyper, I understand). so I haven't quite figured out how that will go, plus the gym benches aren't high enough. guess i could prop it up on some platforms

[saludable24]

I've had and continue to have some really crappy issues with bulging/degenerative discs. I know yoga helped me some for my lower back issues; I was more mobile/flexible.

I came across this on ergo-log; apparently resveritrol helps spinal discs grow: Resveratrol helps spinal discs grow (http://www.ergo-log.com/resveratrolspine.html)

If I had the funds, I would buy a tons of resv to mega-does it for a few months to see if it gives me any improvement. I do know that when I take 8 grams of flax seed oil, which has some phyto-estrogen like properties, I do feel a little bit more cushion back there on my spine, whereas fish oil only seems to have an anti inflamatory effect. If resv has both properties, as suggested in that article, it may be worth it.

[Sperwer]

Yes I would be very interested as to whether it is available elsewhere. and how much are we talkin?

I've been looking into prolotherapy.

Finally, got a response back from my doc at the hospital. Their therapy as such is not available outside Korea, indeed not anywhere in Korea but their hospital. Sorry...

It sounds like the prolotherapy you mentioned is similar in some respects, although the bee venom with which I was injected packed a helluva punch

[pman42]

thought I would provide an update.

o Have found very good pain relief from very high doses of MSM, 10-15 grams/day. this is also supposed to help product mucopolysaccharides so i will stay on this dose
o Recently added in the BioCell brand of hyaluronic acid, 200mg/day. i was pretty surprised and how quickly it seemed to take down the pain. i dropped the MSM totally for a week now to confirm, and it is definitely the HA having a healing effect. I will maintain this dosage for a few more months, maybe even go to 300mg if I can afford it, then drop it down to 100mg maintenance
o I stopped seeing the chiro for ART at $40 a pop because a) it's $40 for 10-15minutes of being touched by a guy and b) I can pay $70 to be touched by a hot girl for an hour, and she is a good RMT too. much more relaxing than ART

[Broly]

Will power man... will power. I wish you the best, it's a bumpy road so do your best to keep a positive outlook.

[pman42]

It is willpower. it is telling myself that it will get better, that I will NOT live my life in pain or debility. actually the thing that sucks the most about all of this is not being able to squat and deadlift. Initially I liked just focusing on upper body (who doesn't like arm and chest day?) but now I really feel that I need some leg work. I feel I'm atrophying without it (probbaly my imagination). all the stuf w/o loaded spine doesn't seem to do the same job as squats. but I have a sled on the way, and right behind my house there is at least a 100 yard stretch of grass so that will be good because i can get in some good leg work that doesn't irritate the spine and is also excellent conditioning.

I wish I had started on the BioCell right away. i got another brand of HA that didn't seem to do anything. but this is definitely more than my imagination. I have a appt to see 2 sports rehab docs and get their opinions, and maybe in a year I will re-image with x-rays and hopefully there will be some changes.

- - - Updated - - -

thought I would add... for pain I think high-dose MSM is at least as good as any NSAID, and it;s good for your liver not bad.

[Freepressright]

You need to seek out a chiropractor who offers non-surgical spinal decompression and start treatment. There's a lot this can do to help with disc issues. In some cases, it's more effective than surgery, depending on which type of condition you have and how severe it is.

I'm about to invest in this:

Amazon.com: Back Bubble Spinal Decompression Pain Relief Device: Health Personal Care (http://www.amazon.com/Back-Bubble-Spinal-Decompression-Relief/dp/B001JJQVFY/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top)

I have a friend who has herniated discs and he bought one. He loves it. As soon as I can free up the funds, I will own one too. Anything you can do to take the load off your discs is a good thing.

Also check out this:

Back Pain Relief with The Back Bubble - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N2_ZJlCSnU)

[Sperwer]

It is willpower. it is telling myself that it will get better, that I will NOT live my life in pain or debility. actually the thing that sucks the most about all of this is not being able to squat and deadlift. Initially I liked just focusing on upper body (who doesn't like arm and chest day?) but now I really feel that I need some leg work. I feel I'm atrophying without it (probbaly my imagination). all the stuf w/o loaded spine doesn't seem to do the same job as squats. but I have a sled on the way, and right behind my house there is at least a 100 yard stretch of grass so that will be good because i can get in some good leg work that doesn't irritate the spine and is also excellent conditioning.

I wish I had started on the BioCell right away. i got another brand of HA that didn't seem to do anything. but this is definitely more than my imagination. I have a appt to see 2 sports rehab docs and get their opinions, and maybe in a year I will re-image with x-rays and hopefully there will be some changes.

- - - Updated - - -

thought I would add... for pain I think high-dose MSM is at least as good as any NSAID, and it;s good for your liver not bad.

Queries: is it BioCell or NeoCell? Whichever, what is the previous stuff you used with which you are comparing it. I've been using Swanson's version of Hyal-Joint, from which I have gotten some good results too.

[Freepressright]

Schiff's new Move Free Ultra Omega looks pretty appealing. I'm considering giving it a try.

But the one product I've never heard one single bad review on is Animal Flex. I've heard people herald it as some kind of miracle for pain.

Universal Nutrition Animal Flex (44 Packs): Discount Animal Flex Supplements (http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/universal-nutrition/animal-flex-44-pack.html#reviews)

[Sperwer]

You need to seek out a chiropractor who offers non-surgical spinal decompression and start treatment. There's a lot this can do to help with disc issues. In some cases, it's more effective than surgery, depending on which type of condition you have and how severe it is.

I'm about to invest in this:

Amazon.com: Back Bubble Spinal Decompression Pain Relief Device: Health Personal Care (http://www.amazon.com/Back-Bubble-Spinal-Decompression-Relief/dp/B001JJQVFY/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top)

I have a friend who has herniated discs and he bought one. He loves it. As soon as I can free up the funds, I will own one too. Anything you can do to take the load off your discs is a good thing.

Also check out this:

Back Pain Relief with The Back Bubble - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N2_ZJlCSnU)

Does that thing have stirrups? 😱


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Broly]

It is willpower. it is telling myself that it will get better, that I will NOT live my life in pain or debility. actually the thing that sucks the most about all of this is not being able to squat and deadlift. Initially I liked just focusing on upper body (who doesn't like arm and chest day?) but now I really feel that I need some leg work. I feel I'm atrophying without it (probbaly my imagination). all the stuf w/o loaded spine doesn't seem to do the same job as squats. but I have a sled on the way, and right behind my house there is at least a 100 yard stretch of grass so that will be good because i can get in some good leg work that doesn't irritate the spine and is also excellent conditioning.

I wish I had started on the BioCell right away. i got another brand of HA that didn't seem to do anything. but this is definitely more than my imagination. I have a appt to see 2 sports rehab docs and get their opinions, and maybe in a year I will re-image with x-rays and hopefully there will be some changes.

- - - Updated - - -

thought I would add... for pain I think high-dose MSM is at least as good as any NSAID, and it;s good for your liver not bad.


You'll find ways to work around it... the Hex Bar Squat is one of my favorite alternatives.

Hex Bar Squat - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9_vsy9ud0g)

The dude in the video is a moron and calls it a deadlift but it's not.

[pman42]

yep, was definitely thinking of getting one of those hex bars once the back gets a little better.

sperwar, it is the BioCell brand of Hyaluronic acid, which is sold by various manufacturers including Jarrow, Doctor;s Best, Source Naturals, etc. It is the HyalJoint from Swanson that I felt nothing from.

Animal Flex looks like an impressive product if everything in the proprietary blends is dosed correctly.

[pman42]

well I saw a sports med doc who looked at the x-ray and says he doesn't think I have degenerative disc disease. He says it's an artifact of the way it's photographed, that since the camera is centred in the middle of the spine, the edges tend to get 'squished together'. needless to say this was a relief.

he advised me to start a core-strengthening program, which as of right now includes: push-up to plank, plant to side plank, dead bugs, reverse hypers, and back extensions. anything else i should add?

[Thuirwyne]

I have a compressed L-4 and the L-5 is degenerated to the point there are bone spurs forming and sitting on the nerve. Eventually it will fuse. My orthos suggested to continue moderate to heavy deadlifts as well as squats. As a matter of fact they (one in San Diego, the other in Palm Springs)both said my heavy squats and deadlifts are probably why I haven't had many problems. When did I have a horrible experience? YOGA. It was a move that over rotated my spine and the spur hit the nerve. It took tons of meds and time just to be good again. No over extension, flexion, or rotation, and I highly recommend the book The Supple Leopard.

[O_RYAN_007]

I know I'm extrememly lucky that my training partner owns a reverse hyper machine from west side. It's really helped decompress the spine and help provide traction of the spine. After those heavy reads and squats, it's imperative that I do them.

Check this vid out pman, start watching at 7:23-7:55. Louie talks about how he first came up with the idea, and how it all started. This will help you make your own Reverse hyper machine.

Louie Simmons Reverse Hyper Instruction - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0zjMFNjC4M)

[milehighguy]

I know I'm extrememly lucky that my training partner owns a reverse hyper machine from west side. It's really helped decompress the spine and help provide traction of the spine. After those heavy reads and squats, it's imperative that I do them.

Check this vid out pman, start watching at 7:23-7:55. Louie talks about how he first came up with the idea, and how it all started. This will help you make your own Reverse hyper machine.

Louie Simmons Reverse Hyper Instruction - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0zjMFNjC4M)

Interesting machine...never seen one before. So he was also talking about using it up to 5 days a week. How often do you do these? Sounds like a good movement even if you don't have any serious issues...

[O_RYAN_007]

Interesting machine...never seen one before. So he was also talking about using it up to 5 days a week. How often do you do these? Sounds like a good movement even if you don't have any serious issues...

I told my training partner I want to move it from 1-2 times a week; after deads and after squats. Before we were just doing them after squats, but the other day I felt I needed some spinal decompression after deads and it felt amazing!!!!!!!!!!. 3x8 at 45#s on each side.

After squats I do 2 45# plates on each side.