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Sperwer
01-21-2013, 04:51 AM
A couple of interesting articles on the subject, challenging the conventional bro-lore:

The Myth of 1g/lb: Optimal Protein Intake for Bodybuilders | Bayesian Bodybuilding (http://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/)

‘How Much Protein’ by Brad Pilon Book Review | Bayesian Bodybuilding (http://mennohenselmans.com/how-much-protein-by-brad-pilon-book-review/)

VayneZ
01-21-2013, 04:38 PM
Nice one Sperwer!!! I think I needed to read this. Def gonna try to lower my protein intake some more to see if this will take me to the lean-level I want to be.

Anyone by chance know how much protein you usually get for:
100g Chicken Breast
100g Turkey Breast
100g Salmon
100g Tilapia
100g Grouper

I've read different number on different websites. But I believe 100g is usually around 20g of protein? correct?

And also, 5 egg whites and 1 whole egg should be just about 24g of protein right?

(not trying to highjack this thread, just that after reading this, I gotta get some facts straight to make some changes after my current PCT run) :)

BigCLS
01-21-2013, 06:01 PM
Nice one Sperwer!!! I think I needed to read this. Def gonna try to lower my protein intake some more to see if this will take me to the lean-level I want to be.

Anyone by chance know how much protein you usually get for:
100g Chicken Breast
100g Turkey Breast
100g Salmon
100g Tilapia
100g Grouper

I've read different number on different websites. But I believe 100g is usually around 20g of protein? correct?

And also, 5 egg whites and 1 whole egg should be just about 24g of protein right?

(not trying to highjack this thread, just that after reading this, I gotta get some facts straight to make some changes after my current PCT run) :)

100g i think is a rough estimate of 20g

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

Rodja
01-21-2013, 08:26 PM
Most of those citations are very, very weak in terms of length of study (very little will be observed in small populations and short periods of time) and Oly/PL'ing has only limited crossover to BB'ing in terms of actual training performed.

One thing the author only briefly touched upon and is not something that is minute is overall caloric balance. Many people substitue carb calories for fats/protein calories to control insulin levels. The author makes no mention of what to substitute for these calories and, let's be honest, is going against the grain in order to stand out.

VayneZ
01-21-2013, 08:54 PM
Most of those citations are very, very weak in terms of length of study (very little will be observed in small populations and short periods of time) and Oly/PL'ing has only limited crossover to BB'ing in terms of actual training performed.

One thing the author only briefly touched upon and is not something that is minute is overall caloric balance. Many people substitue carb calories for fats/protein calories to control insulin levels. The author makes no mention of what to substitute for these calories and, let's be honest, is going against the grain in order to stand out.

Rodja,

With your knowledge and experience in this, you're saying protein per bodyweight (lbs), should variate depending on whether it's a high carb day, or a low to no carb day, to serve as a substitute for the lack of Carb calories, Did i understand that correct?

If so, what according to your understanding and practice is a good ratio per day for protein intake on a High Carb day in comparison to a no carb day? Both if you are hormone free, and when you are on hormones (Just wondering how more your system can take when you're on a cycle).

Does not have to be exact science, but an estimate

DJM
01-21-2013, 08:59 PM
on this subject ill go with bro lore over the posted studies

i dont believe you need 2g+ per pound, but i dont believe less than a gram is effective either

Rodja
01-21-2013, 09:02 PM
Rodja,

With your knowledge and experience in this, you're saying protein per bodyweight (lbs), should variate depending on whether it's a high carb day, or a low to no carb day, to serve as a substitute for the lack of Carb calories, Did i understand that correct?

If so, what according to your understanding and practice is a good ratio per day for protein intake on a High Carb day in comparison to a no carb day? Both if you are hormone free, and when you are on hormones (Just wondering how more your system can take when you're on a cycle).

Does not have to be exact science, but an estimate

Bingo.

It's hard to say what the ratio should be as it depends on training load, goal of carb rotation, and, most importantly, fat intake. I don't really believe that ratios should be altered while using AAS only the amounts consumed.

Sorrow
01-21-2013, 09:55 PM
I have Pilan's Ebook. Overall its a good composition with enough supporting material to at least think about what he is presenting. Its much better then that blog post IMO. He also spends time basically recalling some of his own stories that I could have done without. If you remove the story portions there's probably only 50% of the book left. Also there's a portion of the book that states what most already know and thats that creatine works. (to sum it up) Overall its an interesting read. They have several other products that are decent reads as well. I would give this one a 6/10 for having solid info in it that IS based off his interpretation of the research. All of his citations and references are listed bellow reprinted directly from the text.

Also About the author I have some experience with him and there "phi life" group and they really aren't a bad group, very positive overall. But they are running a business. They don't really bash bodybuilding or "bro science" but they do spend a great deal of time say 90% trying to speak out against the current stereotypes.

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Rulk
01-21-2013, 10:01 PM
I like the article posted, only because for me it's suited well. I'm also with dj, and I will still go with brolore and skip the scientific jargon. Somewhere between what science says, what the gym rats say, and your own personal experience, find your own happy medium. Unless your super serious, just go by rule of thumb.

Sorrow
01-21-2013, 10:05 PM
I like the article posted, only because for me it's suited well. I'm also with dj, and I will still go with brolore and skip the scientific jargon. Somewhere between what science says, what the gym rats say, and your own personal experience, find your own happy medium. Unless your super serious, just go by rule of thumb.

I have to agree. While I found it interesting, all of my current diet is based off me looking back at my own logs to see what had the effect I'm looking for at the time.

Rulk
01-21-2013, 10:20 PM
I have to agree. While I found it interesting, all of my current diet is based off me looking back at my own logs to see what had the effect I'm looking for at the time.

I hear that. My memory used to be pretty good and I could recall a lot of what worked and what didnt. My logs were all up in my head, but it would have been better keeping actual logs. I went pass my comfort zone of eating for one season, and saw better than usual results in terms of strength and size, but to me it was not worth it. After years of toying with ideas, programs, and what not, I have a better understanding of how my body reacts, but every year it changes just a little bit, in different ways.

To me it wasn't how much protein I could eat in day that made a difference, it was how consistant I could be with "whatever", everyday that made a difference. And by "whatever", I mean what kind of regular lifestyle and habits you perform day in and day out.

Sperwer
01-21-2013, 10:43 PM
Most of those citations are very, very weak in terms of length of study (very little will be observed in small populations and short periods of time) and Oly/PL'ing has only limited crossover to BB'ing in terms of actual training performed.

One thing the author only briefly touched upon and is not something that is minute is overall caloric balance. Many people substitue carb calories for fats/protein calories to control insulin levels. The author makes no mention of what to substitute for these calories and, let's be honest, is going against the grain in order to stand out.

I don't share your impression that the author is merely being contrary for the purpose of appearing iconoclastic. His work is too careful for that to be the case; and despite his disdain for what he calls bro-theory, elsewhere he has taken a pragmatic view of the anecdotal evidence of bro-lore where the results of methodologically regirous science are too thin to be of much real significance.

That being said, on the merits, i am disposed in this case to defer to your expertise. ;)

I'm also w / DJ, and others with a real feel for their own biochemical individuality, who privilege their own experience. In fact, i'm closer to the 2g/lb line myself - somewhere just north of 1.5. Any more than that my own personal limiter kicks in and i experience rapid, explosive projectile diarrhea!

markam
01-22-2013, 03:32 AM
I'm taking in about 1g per lb, maybe a little more. More important to me is the quality of food and the (almost) absence of alcohol in my diet. Whatever the optimum amount of protein is, you'll obviously get far superior results if you're getting enough sleep and your diets in check.

h2s
01-22-2013, 07:20 AM
I eat when I am hungry.

Rodja
01-22-2013, 07:36 AM
I don't share your impression that the author is merely being contrary for the purpose of appearing iconoclastic. His work is too careful for that to be the case; and despite his disdain for what he calls bro-theory, elsewhere he has taken a pragmatic view of the anecdotal evidence of bro-lore where the results of methodologically regirous science are too thin to be of much real significance.

That being said, on the merits, i am disposed in this case to defer to your expertise. ;)

I'm also w / DJ, and others with a real feel for their own biochemical individuality, who privilege their own experience. In fact, i'm closer to the 2g/lb line myself - somewhere just north of 1.5. Any more than that my own personal limiter kicks in and i experience rapid, explosive projectile diarrhea!


Granted, this is only from the blog post, but most of his citations are far too broad amongst the weight training population to gather any true impressions. It's because of this that I say he was a bit loose with the science and attempted to mold it to support his own position. This is one of problems with books on any topic: very few people will actually spend the time to even look at the abstracts much less the full text. Both the caloric and individual substrate needs of an Oly lifter, PL'er, and BB'er are going to be very different due to the inherent differences within the training.


I eat when I am hungry.

This is generally where I stand on nutrition.

VayneZ
01-22-2013, 10:57 AM
Well I know this thread was posted for a reason! I really needed this. I appreciate all of your input! And Rodja thanks for responding when you did!

I'm just really focus on my whole eating routine. Especially with the progress I've made on my cycle, I know it had way more to do with me lowering my protein intake to around where Mark is (a bit above 1g/lb). When I did my AAS cycle I was 1.5 - 1.75 and my fat intake was really low. Packed on size but definition was NOWHERE as it is with my PH cycle.

After PCT I'll cruise a little lower on protein, and perhaps increase fat more, especially on 0 carb days, see where that takes me.

But thanks again guys, for your input. This board has done so much for my overall progress and I owe all of you my sincere gratitude!

Rodja
01-22-2013, 11:10 AM
Well I know this thread was posted for a reason! I really needed this. I appreciate all of your input! And Rodja thanks for responding when you did!

I'm just really focus on my whole eating routine. Especially with the progress I've made on my cycle, I know it had way more to do with me lowering my protein intake to around where Mark is (a bit above 1g/lb). When I did my AAS cycle I was 1.5 - 1.75 and my fat intake was really low. Packed on size but definition was NOWHERE as it is with my PH cycle.

After PCT I'll cruise a little lower on protein, and perhaps increase fat more, especially on 0 carb days, see where that takes me.

But thanks again guys, for your input. This board has done so much for my overall progress and I owe all of you my sincere gratitude!

I've actually had a slight shift in macros lately to put slightly more emphasis on carbs. My macros used to be 20/40/40 C/F/P, but I've moved it closer to 30/30/40 since my training sessions have gotten longer recently and to lessen some of the lethargy that is associated with 1T.

VayneZ
01-22-2013, 11:32 AM
Sounds like a good shift especially for you kind of high endurance training routine.

In my case protein stays pretty much static throughout the week, and since I have been doing carb cycling lately, my C/F macro's would change based on low/no carb days to really HIGH carb days. The high fat intake on no carb days has done wonders for my physique. Restraining that a bit through PCT, and then I will be increasing fat and decreasing carbs overall. Right now my focus is Definition/toning.

You're current focus is strength/endurance correct?

Rodja
01-22-2013, 11:35 AM
Sounds like a good shift especially for you kind of high endurance training routine.

In my case protein stays pretty much static throughout the week, and since I have been doing carb cycling lately, my C/F macro's would change based on low/no carb days to really HIGH carb days. The high fat intake on no carb days has done wonders for my physique. Restraining that a bit through PCT, and then I will be increasing fat and decreasing carbs overall. Right now my focus is Definition/toning.

You're current focus is strength/endurance correct?

Pure strength. No emphasis on endurance outside of work capacity.

VayneZ
01-22-2013, 04:02 PM
Pure strength. No emphasis on endurance outside of work capacity.

Nice. Makes sense.

Sorrow
01-22-2013, 07:57 PM
Both the caloric and individual substrate needs of an Oly lifter, PL'er, and BB'er are going to be very different due to the inherent differences within the training.

It's your opinion, and your definitely entitled to it, and I can for the most part see where your coming from on this. Especially with the different end goals. But, I think this is one of those things we don't really see eye to eye on. And the training differences between bodybuilders and powerlifters, I honestly think there's a lot more in common then most people see. Especially if you go back 10-20 years. There's been a lot of trends over the last few years that each have their merits. But I don't see the results of any of those systems as being truly, clearly superior to the results of the older lifters. Could also be lost in the fact that we're typing on the internet rather then actually talking. Sometimes I read things a little different then their intended I think. And you've given a lot of sound advice on here from what I've seen.
Sorry for the side track.

Back to the topic of protein I did find two decent studies while I was at work today on lunch break. I was rather surprised they didn't have a given length of study (duration) called out on them though. Good call on looking for that on the studies Rodja.

Effects of variation in protein and carbohydr... [Am J Clin Nutr. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16469983)

Higher Dietary Protein Intake is Associated with Lower Body Fat in the Newfoundland Population (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3411511/)

My interpretation is that both these studies SUPPORT a high protein diet.
Again, I suggest you keep an accurate diet log for as long as possible, combine that with a good blood pressure monitor, weight scale, and some sort of body fat analyzer. Keep track and record. Then you can make adjustments based on how your own body works. I have a spreadsheet that I've found is easy for me to update now that we all have smart phones and cloud services, so when I eat I update it. I struggled with that when I had just pen and paper.

Sperwer
01-22-2013, 08:10 PM
Again, I suggest you keep an accurate diet log for as long as possible, combine that with a good blood pressure monitor, weight scale, and some sort of body fat analyzer. Keep track and record. Then you can make adjustments based on how your own body works. I have a spreadsheet that I've found is easy for me to update now that we all have smart phones and cloud services, so when I eat I update it. I struggled with that when I had just pen and paper.

This!

Grape Ape
01-23-2013, 09:57 AM
I shoot for 1g per 1lb of LBM. Add an extra gram for every pound I want to gain in LBM. Usually in 5-10lb increments.

If you have 150lbs LBM, and want to gain 5lbs of muscle, then that would be 155g protein.

Anything above 1g per 1lb bodyweight is obsessive in my opinion. Unless your on cycle.

burlyman30
01-23-2013, 01:09 PM
I tend to take in 30-60 grams per meal and leave it at that. Beyond that, I make sure my caloric intake is sufficient to accomplish my goals. You can take in 1 g per lb and still lose muscle if you are hypocaloric.

Eden
01-27-2013, 09:12 PM
I take in about 275-375g protein power day at 195lbs

DJM
01-30-2013, 03:22 PM
^^^id be shitting logs all day at 375 lol

Milburn
03-14-2013, 06:16 AM
Protein is necessary for the muscles building and muscles recovery.
It also helps to burn the fat along with the muscles building.
At least 200 grams of protein must be included in daily diet for the muscles building and fat burning purposes.

Maitland Personal Trainer (http://bootcampmaitland.com.au/Personal-Trainer-Maitland)

Jiigzz
03-19-2013, 01:55 AM
This topic is very highly debated on almost all forums but there has been several studies on BBers and strength trainers that indicate that protein intakes of 1.4g per KG of body weight was the level in which whole body synthesis plateued. At protein intakes exceeding 2.8g per KG, Leucine oxidation increased 2 fold.

markam
03-19-2013, 02:26 AM
This topic is very highly debated on almost all forums but there has been several studies on BBers and strength trainers that indicate that protein intakes of 1.4g per KG of body weight was the level in which whole body synthesis plateued. At protein intakes exceeding 2.8g per KG, Leucine oxidation increased 2 fold.

And double that amount if you're on?

Fat Bill Dwyer
03-19-2013, 06:55 AM
This topic is very highly debated on almost all forums but there has been several studies on BBers and strength trainers that indicate that protein intakes of 1.4g per KG of body weight was the level in which whole body synthesis plateued. At protein intakes exceeding 2.8g per KG, Leucine oxidation increased 2 fold.

That's interesting. Can you help a brother find these studies?

Fat Bill Dwyer
03-19-2013, 06:58 AM
I eat when I am hungry.

Me too, and when I'm not hungry, and when I'm in my car, and when I'm at work, and pre-workout, and intra-workout, and post-workout, and when I'm on the john...

*edit

... my uncle gave me chocolate when I was a "goodboy".

Jiigzz
03-19-2013, 12:54 PM
That's interesting. Can you help a brother find these studies?

Sure, i'll find them when I get home.

Jiigzz
03-19-2013, 09:13 PM
The reference is : Tarnopolsky MA et al. in the Journal of Applied Physiology 1997; 83:1877-83

Because it's in a textbook, I dont have the direct link. The title is evaluation of protein needs on trained strength athletes IIRC

josh
05-18-2013, 08:48 AM
The reference is : Tarnopolsky MA et al. in the Journal of Applied Physiology 1997; 83:1877-83

Because it's in a textbook, I dont have the direct link. The title is evaluation of protein needs on trained strength athletes IIRC

your just everywhere arent you

josh
05-18-2013, 09:18 AM
The reference is : Tarnopolsky MA et al. in the Journal of Applied Physiology 1997; 83:1877-83

Because it's in a textbook, I dont have the direct link. The title is evaluation of protein needs on trained strength athletes IIRC

I have the FT but its too big to load here. Can we get the attachment limit raised a tad?

Its called "Postexercise protein-carbohydrate and carbohydrate supplements increase muscle glycogen in men and women" BTW

- - - Updated - - -

Oh nevermind its a freebie one

http://jap.physiology.org/content/83/6/1877.full.pdf

olddawg
05-18-2013, 10:24 AM
I have been on a low cal/prot diet while cutting. down to 1200 cals and prot was just under 1g/lb, I did lose significant muscle within a week's time. I won't drop below 1g/lb again

Royald
06-28-2014, 12:18 AM
There should be proper protein intake for the muscles building and weight management (http://www.ourpatch.com.au/newcastle/categories/fitness-facilities-trainers/businesses/294663-adam-prowse-personal-trainer---maitland-boot-camp/).
The bodybuilders must eat at least 150 grams of the proteins in routine diet to get all muscles building and fat burning support.

HIXX504
06-28-2014, 12:28 AM
There should be proper protein intake for the muscles building and weight management (http://www.ourpatch.com.au/newcastle/categories/fitness-facilities-trainers/businesses/294663-adam-prowse-personal-trainer---maitland-boot-camp/).
The bodybuilders must eat at least 150 grams of the proteins in routine diet to get all muscles building and fat burning support.

I heard spam was high in protein


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ryhigh
06-28-2014, 04:54 AM
I heard spam was high in protein


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Hahahaha great post


Cookie monsters iPhone

atifmonkey
08-15-2014, 03:57 PM
if your on cycle im sure more protien is required.