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View Full Version : I call BS on LG Sciences new PHs



Freepressright
02-11-2013, 09:09 AM
In case anyone happened to notice on a whim, because surely no one who knows any better really goes looking for LG Sciences products, they know have a product called 1-Androstenolone. It appears to be a 1-Androsterone supplement (3b-hydroxy-androst-1-ene-17-one).

It's nice to see that they've re-entered the real world of actual prohormones after years of selling totally bogus, pseudo-prohormones and products intended to make you believe they were actually anabolic -- BUT, 20mg of active hormone? 20mg? Seriously?

LG is justifying the low dose, claiming their delivery system is "250 times stronger" than regular oral administration. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm having a helluva time swallowing that claim (no pun intended). Primordial's sophisticated carrier in the AndroSeries was incredibly effective, and they were putting a helluva lot more in a dose than 20mg.

I hate to write off a product before even trying it, but I just can't see 20mg of that product being effective, short of a miracle.

saludable24
02-11-2013, 12:04 PM
Isn't 20mg the amount in all the AMS/Forerunner rapid disolve tabs and their liquid Mass Drops? I've seen several people say that those products, though not nearly as strong as the Andro Series, are decent for what they are. The claim is that absorbtion through oral mucosa is much higher and more effective/direct to the blood stream than going through the digestive tract.

On the other hand I don't think I would bother with LG Sciences pro-hormones, but I do like their GHenerate and M1D Black(esterfied DHEA) products.

markam
02-11-2013, 12:13 PM
LG used to have a great sub-lingual 1,3 dim product called E-911. It wasn't that strong and tasted foul, but the fact that you could use it straight after a meal was very handy for me as I work nights. Shame they don't make them anymore. They have another 'feel good' stim which I quite like called Rezolution. BTW I never use these on cycle.

Freepressright
02-11-2013, 01:25 PM
Isn't 20mg the amount in all the AMS/Forerunner rapid disolve tabs and their liquid Mass Drops? I've seen several people say that those products, though not nearly as strong as the Andro Series, are decent for what they are. The claim is that absorbtion through oral mucosa is much higher and more effective/direct to the blood stream than going through the digestive tract.

On the other hand I don't think I would bother with LG Sciences pro-hormones, but I do like their GHenerate and M1D Black(esterfied DHEA) products.

I tried GHenerate. It gave me terrible diarrhea. I ran M1D years ago, before I knew any better, and it didn't do jack squat.

They used to have great Methyl 1-Test, though, pre 2004! After they stopped calling themselves "Legal Gear," their products really went to shit. They're marketed heavily to the low-information demographic for a reason.

nate3993
02-11-2013, 03:00 PM
the one thing i thought, i was just looking at their 1 androstenolone product too, was that you could take each dose with a cup of grapefruit juice to enhance the absorption.

pitboss
02-11-2013, 03:21 PM
Everything in their line is underdosed. You have to use 2-3 times the " normal " dose to see results.

Grape Ape
02-11-2013, 06:14 PM
Everyone of their new products has an A.I. in it. Same active in PES' Erase. Even their epiandrosterone product.

saludable24
02-11-2013, 08:30 PM
I tried GHenerate. It gave me terrible diarrhea. I ran M1D years ago, before I knew any better, and it didn't do jack squat.

They used to have great Methyl 1-Test, though, pre 2004! After they stopped calling themselves "Legal Gear," their products really went to shit. They're marketed heavily to the low-information demographic for a reason.

I can credit GHenerate with helping to heal some nasty carple tunnel symptoms I was having for about a Year. Nothing else, even 20+ grams of fish oil acually kept the pain stopped after discontinuing use. And yeah, their M1D isn't necessarily impressive, but I got a few bottles of it for cheap. Though I dosed it at 6-8 caps a day with Erase, I got more than I ever did out of my few uses of Dermacrine. I have 2 bottles of the new Dermacrine in the gel carrier, I am hoping they are more effective. Maybe I just don't have a lot of the enzymes concentrated in my skin.

But as far as their other products, especially the pro-hormones, are concerned, there are many better options available on the market.

Freepressright
02-12-2013, 07:13 AM
Everyone of their new products has an A.I. in it. Same active in PES' Erase. Even their epiandrosterone product.

That's one thing that always drives me nuts. These companies foster the belief that estrogen eradication is the holy grail of elevating testosterone and that it's always necessary. And to the low-information lifter, that sounds great.

Again, this goes back to what I said earlier about them marketing their products to dummies.

Their epiandrosterone product with an AI is super retarded. Epiandro converts to DHT and DHT does not convert to estrogen and is used to combat estrogen. As if it weren't a 'dry' enough formula already.

This is equally as dumb as all the test boosters on the market that contain DHT blockers.

This particular company has spent many years in hyping the hell out of products intended to make you think they were real prohormones. The company, IMHO, is built on half truths and deception to consumers. They might have had a couple of supplements that actually had some marginal benefit, but a dead clock is still right twice a day.

The claim of their new PH delivery system being "250 time stronger" is purely theoretical and hypothetical. If that were the case, then your 20mg dose of 1-DHEA in their 1-Androstenolone product would be equivalent to 5,000mg.

I won't be buying their products anytime soon.

markam
02-12-2013, 08:38 AM
After looking for any names of people behind the company, i.e. directors, etc, I haven't come across anyone. I wonder who is actually behind this faceless company?

Freepressright
02-12-2013, 10:38 AM
I don't know. Back in their glory, they were known as "Legal Gear" and sold designer steroids and prohormones. Somewhere along the line they went PC and started marketing products that sounded like PHs and other supplements to low-information lifters. Just lately the company has come back around to the world of actual prohormones.

Right Hook
02-12-2013, 11:57 AM
the one thing i thought, i was just looking at their 1 androstenolone product too, was that you could take each dose with a cup of grapefruit juice to enhance the absorption.

That would be a bad idea: LeanBulk Forums | Fitness Discussion Group | Fitness Forums (http://www.leanbulk.com/forum/research-articles/17457-should-i-drink-grapefruit-juice-prohormones-help-bioavailability.html)

BBG
02-12-2013, 12:27 PM
That would be a bad idea: LeanBulk Forums | Fitness Discussion Group | Fitness Forums (http://www.leanbulk.com/forum/research-articles/17457-should-i-drink-grapefruit-juice-prohormones-help-bioavailability.html)

very good article here, thanks RH

nate3993
02-12-2013, 02:17 PM
That would be a bad idea: LeanBulk Forums | Fitness Discussion Group | Fitness Forums (http://www.leanbulk.com/forum/research-articles/17457-should-i-drink-grapefruit-juice-prohormones-help-bioavailability.html)

or not drink 24 ounces? 2 main components of the andorseries. one of them being less suppression, and the other being bioavailability. bioavailability was achieved by grapefruit. i remember them saying 6 pills was the equivalent to one cup of grapefruit juice. 4-6 ounces of grapefuit could still help you achieve enhanced bioavailability without upping your naringen levels to the "bad amount".

Right Hook
02-12-2013, 04:36 PM
or not drink 24 ounces? 2 main components of the andorseries. one of them being less suppression, and the other being bioavailability. bioavailability was achieved by grapefruit. i remember them saying 6 pills was the equivalent to one cup of grapefruit juice. 4-6 ounces of grapefuit could still help you achieve enhanced bioavailability without upping your naringen levels to the "bad amount".

Ask yourself how does naringenin prevent suppression? Because it ultimately reduces the effectiveness of the prohormone. It's illogical to think you can increase bioavailability while decreasing suppression. This is what they are trying to do with SARMs. Unsuccessfully I might add when you look at the dose response curves.

Also naringenin essentially builds up in the body. Drink it every day and you'll likely suppress a large portion 17b-hsd. Giving you nothing more to work with than the anabolic activity of a Dione and nothing more. 50% of 17b-hsd suppression was achieved at only 2.4 uM. That's likely only 4-6 ounces of gfj per day.

nate3993
02-12-2013, 04:51 PM
I thought the whole reducing suppression had nothing to do with naringen. It had to do with the hormone slowly rising and then lowering by night time. It was the up and down response that gave it reduced suppression. Not the naringen.

- - - Updated - - -

Now. This for a pro hormone, right? So what about a steroid that's already active, and needs no conversion? And you wanted to get more absorption?

h2s
02-12-2013, 04:53 PM
Ask yourself how does naringenin prevent suppression? Because it ultimately reduces the effectiveness of the prohormone. It's illogical to think you can increase bioavailability while decreasing suppression. This is what they are trying to do with SARMs. Unsuccessfully I might add when you look at the dose response curves.

Also naringenin essentially builds up in the body. Drink it every day and you'll likely suppress a large portion 17b-hsd. Giving you nothing more to work with than the anabolic activity of a Dione and nothing more. 50% of 17b-hsd suppression was achieved at only 2.4 uM. That's likely only 4-6 ounces of gfj per day.

The reduced suppression claims had nothing to do with grapefruit, they came from the once a day dosing, attempting to fit into the body's natural hormonal rhythm.

I am not one too argue a study, especially since at this point I really don't care to defend products that don't exist, but the results of the study and the results of the product seem to clash a bit. I have been unable to achieve the results I received from grapefruit-based Androhard with Standard Stano, taking the same dosage and even a higher dosage of active, and I know others who have failed at experimenting this way as well. I haven't attempted to consume grapefruit juice with stano, so I can't give a comparison in that manner, but I can't think of another reason for the increase in benefit seen from Ahard other than the gfj.

Right Hook
02-12-2013, 04:55 PM
I thought the whole reducing suppression had nothing to do with naringen. It had to do with the hormone slowly rising and then lowering by night time. It was the up and down response that gave it reduced suppression. Not the naringen.

- - - Updated - - -

Now. This for a pro hormone, right? So what about a steroid that's already active, and needs no conversion? And you wanted to get more absorption?


I have no idea. You mentioned naringenin in the context of gfj.

If the steroid doesn't require 17b-hsd for metabolism to a stronger metabolite then consumption of gfj may help due to cyp3a4 intestinal and hepatic inhibition. I would refer to Jakes article about it though. I'm not sure it matters much with things like halo/epistane with high bioavailability.

Right Hook
02-12-2013, 05:01 PM
The reduced suppression claims had nothing to do with grapefruit, they came from the once a day dosing, attempting to fit into the body's natural hormonal rhythm.

I am not one too argue a study, especially since at this point I really don't care to defend products that don't exist, but the results of the study and the results of the product seem to clash a bit. I have been unable to achieve the results I received from grapefruit-based Androhard with Standard Stano, taking the same dosage and even a higher dosage of active, and I know others who have failed at experimenting this way as well. I haven't attempted to consume grapefruit juice with stano, so I can't give a comparison in that manner, but I can't think of another reason for the increase in benefit seen from Ahard other than the gfj.

I think the stano PP sold was an enanthate version right? That's a big difference than consuming an encapsulated stano product. Also wasn't the transdermal andro hard the most popular of all versions? And I bet it had no naringenin in it.

Stano is a different beast for a few other reasons as well. But I would still avoid gfj with it based on current literature.

markam
02-12-2013, 05:23 PM
I think the stano PP sold was an enanthate version right? That's a big difference than consuming an encapsulated stano product. Also wasn't the transdermal andro hard the most popular of all versions? And I bet it had no naringenin in it.

Stano is a different beast for a few other reasons as well. But I would still avoid gfj with it based on current literature.

Transdermal androhard? Missed that one.

h2s
02-12-2013, 05:40 PM
I think the stano PP sold was an enanthate version right? That's a big difference than consuming an encapsulated stano product. Also wasn't the transdermal andro hard the most popular of all versions? And I bet it had no naringenin in it.

Stano is a different beast for a few other reasons as well. But I would still avoid gfj with it based on current literature.

Definitely an oversight in my response, but yes esterfied as well. Never was a transdermal though.

saludable24
02-12-2013, 08:41 PM
Ask yourself how does naringenin prevent suppression? Because it ultimately reduces the effectiveness of the prohormone. It's illogical to think you can increase bioavailability while decreasing suppression. This is what they are trying to do with SARMs. Unsuccessfully I might add when you look at the dose response curves.

Also naringenin essentially builds up in the body. Drink it every day and you'll likely suppress a large portion 17b-hsd. Giving you nothing more to work with than the anabolic activity of a Dione and nothing more. 50% of 17b-hsd suppression was achieved at only 2.4 uM. That's likely only 4-6 ounces of gfj per day.

The study (Chalcones are potent inhibitors of aromatase and 17... [Life Sci. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11205867?report=abstract)) was done in a placenta. I can't access the full text, but I imagine that it was certainly not done in a live body. I have doubts about naringenin's effects being THAT pronounced in vivo in males considering my few uses of the Andro Series as well as others' experiences as well. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think we all know that things that pop up in studies don't always pan out the same way in real world experiences for us. Thus I take that study with a grain of salt and add another grain or two for the fact that the company you rep for sells a competative product. Again, not saying you are wrong, just that I am not so easily convinced.

What would be useful would be some experiments showing bloodwork/urine analysis for the dione/diol metabolites of various products with and without naringenin.

Right Hook
02-12-2013, 08:51 PM
The study (Chalcones are potent inhibitors of aromatase and 17... [Life Sci. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11205867?report=abstract)) was done in a placenta. I can't access the full text, but I imagine that it was certainly not done in a live body. I have doubts about naringenin's effects being THAT pronounced in vivo in males considering my few uses of the Andro Series as well as others' experiences as well. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think we all know that things that pop up in studies don't always pan out the same way in real world experiences for us. Thus I take that study with a grain of salt and add another grain or two for the fact that the company you rep for sells a competative product. Again, not saying you are wrong, just that I am not so easily convinced.

What would be useful would be some experiments showing bloodwork/urine analysis for the dione/diol metabolites of various products with and without naringenin.

Read more on 17b-hsd. You cannot easily study it in vivo. There is more research showing naringenin and other flavonoids and other things like milk thistle being 17b-hsd inhibitors. I wrote about pretty extensively in the Legal SARM by AMS article.

I wasn't aware that anyone was selling a naringenin prohormone product other than andro factory who clearly is not a respectable company anyways.

Pp asked me not to post this information a couple years back. I obliged because I liked them guys. I don't see any reason why I shouldn't post it now. It's extremely frustrating to sell a product and have people potentially piss away the results by trying to improve the product with gfj.

saludable24
02-12-2013, 09:05 PM
Read more on 17b-hsd. You cannot easily study it in vivo. There is more research showing naringenin and other flavonoids and other things like milk thistle being 17b-hsd inhibitors. I wrote about pretty extensively in the Legal SARM by AMS article.

I wasn't aware that anyone was selling a naringenin prohormone product other than andro factory who clearly is not a respectable company anyways.

Pp asked me not to post this information a couple years back. I obliged because I liked them guys. I don't see any reason why I shouldn't post it now. It's extremely frustrating to sell a product and have people potentially piss away the results by trying to improve the product with gfj.

I've seen naringenin/quercetin in some other products I assume that since it seems to becoming more common that there might be other prohormones adding them to their product. I have seen them in some test boosting products a while back specifically.

I will go look for your article. I also posted in a similar thread on AM wondering if the longer half-life of hormones negates the enzyme inhibition as far as end results are concerned. All of this is certainly interesting science.

Freepressright
02-13-2013, 02:30 PM
This is back when LG Sciences turned out products that actually did something
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Bodock
02-15-2013, 12:31 PM
What do yall think about there new Form-XT liquid AI?

Freepressright
02-15-2013, 01:01 PM
If you have a problem with excessive estrogen or want to thwart estrogen rebound, the ingredients definitely lend themselves to the cause. Not so sure about the dose of each ingredient, as it's proprietary.

I am super sensitive to estrogen suppression. If the actives are bioavailable, I could not take this product without dry joints, loss of libido and mood swings.

nate3993
02-15-2013, 01:57 PM
Something else I think about these lg sciences liquid products. The tin or metal cans they're coming in to look fancy? Not needed. Put tht fukin money into research and product. Fuk a fancy can. They do have some of the worst claims. 1mg liquid resveratrol was equal to 250mg! Ha! I fukin wish.