Possible Legal HCG Alternative

[O.N.]

Research has suggested that 7,8 benzoflavone is capable of reversing the negative feedback loop at the hypothalamus via modulation of the GABA/opioid receptor complex.

In other words, 7,8 benzoflavone could potentially be used to stimulate LH (leutenizing hormone) and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) during a steroid cycle and prevent shutdown of the HPTA (hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis). For those that aren’t familiar with 7,8 benzoflavone, it is a natural occurring flavonoid from passionflower, and is one of the ingredients in Res100 (http://www.res100.com/).

So how do we intend to prove this?

Glad you asked. You see, if LH and FSH rise after using Res100 during a cycle, then we know that it is preventing suppression of the HPTA and stimulating the testes in a way similar to HCG. If this proves to be true, this could replace the need for on cycle HCG and prevent testicular shrinkage. (assuming its used early enough in the cycle to avoid leydig cell desensitization)

So, here is the plan…


1. Get on cycle.
2. Wait 3 days then run 4 caps per day Res100 for 2-3 days
3. Morning of the 3rd day of the Res100 complete a Blood test for LH/FSH levels.

After the Res100 is used for 48-72hrs, we are hoping the tests will reveal “normal” levels of LH and FSH. (thus proving that Res100 can stimulate natural testosterone production, even during a cycle)

Now, I figured that you guys would want to see some blood test results from actual members…

We had a blood test come in recently from a customer which shows within normal LH and FSH and well above normal testosterone which shows he is on cycle at the time of the blood test and that the Res100 is able to keep his LH/FSH within range. He says he is using 500mg test e, with 4 caps res100 and 2 tococaps per day and that this blood test was 4 weeks into his 10 week cycle without any HCG used.

We do not know if we could expect the same results within everybody and we do not know if this guys is just a freak or not, but this is also not the first time we have heard customers using Res100 during a cycle and "feeling" like they are still functioning down stairs with no lack in testicle size and some people reporting further increases in libido etc.

I have always said it can only be used on cycle for health benefits and didn't think it would be possible to compete for the receptor when such high levels of androgens are present. I would love for more people to give this a try and see if it works or not.....I wouldn't stop using HCG just yet but this "could" be an alternative for people who cannot obtain HCG.

http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=2014&d=1356593643

http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=2015&d=1356593647

- - - Updated - - -

One of our customer responses to the above post:


Testers Needed Prevent Testicular Shrinkage with a New Legal HCG Alternative (http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/online-nutrition/3372-testers-needed-prevent-testicular-shrinkage-with-a-new-legal-hcg-alternative.html#post61330)
I've used Res100 for all the cycles I've done in the past couple of years (been about 3-4). I have NEVER had any issues with nut shrinkage or had any inability in the downstairs region - if anything I was twice as active. When I was doing this combo I felt like I wanted to rip into every female I saw, which is hard seeing as I'm engaged lol. As said above you can Definitely feel the difference running Res100 makes.

I was on around 750mg P/W of Test-e sometimes stacked with a low dose of Deca, or by itself for the cycles. Was always running 6ml ED of Res100 (4 Caps ED With the new Res) 2x Tococaps ED and I was running ZMA's at night, I cycle DAA on and off also.

I was mainly using it for the health benefits for example Liver cleansing etc, but with further proof as above I'm glad I've been running the stack whilst I was on, And I highly recommend it to anyone wanting/keeping better results.

[markam]

Interesting. There's an article where Charles Poliquin states "It is my experience that dosages greater than 2400 mg per week can lower cortisol too much and thereby increase inflammation in the body". Are You Too Nervous To Grow? | Poliquin Article (http://www.charlespoliquin.com/ArticlesMultimedia/Articles/Article/116/Are_You_Too_Nervous_To_Grow.aspx)

This is also what I experience when I dose at 600mg a day (4200mg per week). It only takes a few days at a high dosage for my finger joints to become painful. Thing is, Res100 is dosed twice a day = 600mg, which would render it unusable for me and I would suspect many others.

[O.N.]

@markam we have had many people use it for many months at a time and not complain about sore fingers. Some of the studies conducted on PS were 600-800mg for periods longer than 1 week and no noted side effects see here for some of them: JISSN | Full text | The effects of phosphatidylserine on endocrine response to moderate intensity exercise (http://www.jissn.com/content/5/1/11)

someone who says: "It is my experience that dosages greater than 2400 mg per week can lower cortisol too much and thereby increase inflammation in the body.".....

Well that to me is just another personal opinion, he may be credible but there is zero proof when it comes to personal opinions this is why we ask as many of our customer to complete before and after blood tests.

We are now above 80 reviews and blood tests i can confidently say we are the most independently reviewed and blood tested testosterone booster on the market. see them all here Res100 Reviews and Blood Tests (http://www.res100.com/reviews)

The problems you get in the fingers will not and does not happen to everyone.
You can also take res100 once a day and still get fairly decent results some of the leaner guys with less estrogen take it once per day and have shown great signs of improvement.

[markam]

Ok, fair enough, but my personal experience backs this info up for me.

[O.N.]

Ok, fair enough, but my personal experience backs this info up for me.

Myself and many others have taken double the dose on and off cycle and have not had any problems so that would be 8400mg per week.

At this dose i do recall at the 3 week mark getting sore finger joints, so yes totally possible but dose dependent and person to person.

Anyway the thread was not about PS it was about the ability for LH and FSH to maintain whilst taking steroids.

[Freepressright]

I cannot run Sustain Alpha gel at more than one pump per day. My joints get dry and achy, I become a raging dickhead and my sex drive pukes completely. Res100 probably isn't for me either.

[burlyman30]

Research has suggested that 7,8 benzoflavone is capable of reversing the negative feedback loop at the hypothalamus via modulation of the GABA/opioid receptor complex.

In other words, 7,8 benzoflavone could potentially be used to stimulate LH (leutenizing hormone) and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) during a steroid cycle and prevent shutdown of the HPTA (hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis). For those that aren’t familiar with 7,8 benzoflavone, it is a natural occurring flavonoid from passionflower, and is one of the ingredients in Res100 (http://www.res100.com/).

So how do we intend to prove this?

Glad you asked. You see, if LH and FSH rise after using Res100 during a cycle, then we know that it is preventing suppression of the HPTA and stimulating the testes in a way similar to HCG. If this proves to be true, this could replace the need for on cycle HCG and prevent testicular shrinkage. (assuming its used early enough in the cycle to avoid leydig cell desensitization)

So, here is the plan…


1. Get on cycle.
2. Wait 3 days then run 4 caps per day Res100 for 2-3 days
3. Morning of the 3rd day of the Res100 complete a Blood test for LH/FSH levels.

After the Res100 is used for 48-72hrs, we are hoping the tests will reveal “normal” levels of LH and FSH. (thus proving that Res100 can stimulate natural testosterone production, even during a cycle)

Now, I figured that you guys would want to see some blood test results from actual members…

We had a blood test come in recently from a customer which shows within normal LH and FSH and well above normal testosterone which shows he is on cycle at the time of the blood test and that the Res100 is able to keep his LH/FSH within range. He says he is using 500mg test e, with 4 caps res100 and 2 tococaps per day and that this blood test was 4 weeks into his 10 week cycle without any HCG used.

We do not know if we could expect the same results within everybody and we do not know if this guys is just a freak or not, but this is also not the first time we have heard customers using Res100 during a cycle and "feeling" like they are still functioning down stairs with no lack in testicle size and some people reporting further increases in libido etc.

I have always said it can only be used on cycle for health benefits and didn't think it would be possible to compete for the receptor when such high levels of androgens are present. I would love for more people to give this a try and see if it works or not.....I wouldn't stop using HCG just yet but this "could" be an alternative for people who cannot obtain HCG.

http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=2014&d=1356593643

http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=2015&d=1356593647

- - - Updated - - -

One of our customer responses to the above post:

Eric did similar research on Sustain Alpha a couple years back based on the same information. He, too, hoped for an hcg alternative via this pathway. After several months of testing, he abandoned his hopes in this.

If this same person in your post did LH tests every 4 weeks (weeks 4, 8, 12) it would be far more telling. After 4 weeks, the feedback loop has not yet shut down production of LH. And without a baseline test to show what LH levels were prior to the 4 weeks, we cannot tell if this person has already has some suppression within the normal range.

[O.N.]

Eric did similar research on Sustain Alpha a couple years back based on the same information. He, too, hoped for an hcg alternative via this pathway. After several months of testing, he abandoned his hopes in this.

If this same person in your post did LH tests every 4 weeks (weeks 4, 8, 12) it would be far more telling. After 4 weeks, the feedback loop has not yet shut down production of LH. And without a baseline test to show what LH levels were prior to the 4 weeks, we cannot tell if this person has already has some suppression within the normal range.

agreed it needs much more testing however LH does hit baseline within 3 days of taking steroids, personally i still tell people to use HCG but for those guys out there especially over here who cannot source HCG this "maybe" a possible alternative.

[Jelisej]

Looking at the ingredients I see your supplement as a great addition to PCT, and there are some other possibilities.
As a substitute for HCG- no way. Primordial performance had same idea for Sustain Alpha (similar ingredients), but they went quiet about it- which suggest that it did not work out. On some cycles even HCG cannot prevent testicular atrophy.
Sometimes it could be used to try to boost their tt levels, but on long term- I absolutely agree with Markam on PS and lowering cortisol.
Lowering cortisol is usually not good idea, in reality good adrenals and cortisol levels are needed to sustain higher testost. levels.
Lot of people dont understand difference between cortisol and cortisone and adrenaline.

As for bloodwork you supplied- it was bit too early for shutdown as synthetic testosterone was just starting to kick in.
Shutdown itself is different from person to person sometimes it can happen pretty fast, sometimes it can be a months. LH is not always proof of shutdown, there are some folks in which LH production does not completely stop.

[burlyman30]

agreed it needs much more testing however LH does hit baseline within 3 days of taking steroids, personally i still tell people to use HCG but for those guys out there especially over here who cannot source HCG this "maybe" a possible alternative.

3 days? Not sure where you got that info. I've had active, albiet low LH production 6 weeks into a cycle.

I think without research to prove it, it's a pipedream and irresponsible to promote it as a "possible alternative".

[BBG]

Pretty sure LH and FSH (or just LH) will actually be higher around the 1-2 week mark than off cycle. This was the premise before "2 weeks on, 4 weeks off", where 2 weeks could actually lead to higher test levels after coming off, due to increased LH and FSH.

If we could get someone to be on for 4 weeks, then start taking res100, and show LH and FSH that would be great.

[DJM]

3 days? Not sure where you got that info. I've had active, albiet low LH production 6 weeks into a cycle.

I think without research to prove it, it's a pipedream and irresponsible to promote it as a "possible alternative".

iv had lh even later and multiple compounds

trans res can me made out to be a legal alternative but imo an inadequate one at that

[O.N.]

Like i said "possible" and the blood test is good to view what information we do have and yes if it is going to be possible then more testing would need to be completed.

On the flip side of this you did have the sheep study where they were administered a GABA(b) agonist which was able to keep the production of LH going whilst testosterone was being administered.


GABA(b) receptor agonist can reverses the negative feedback effect of testosterone on GNRH and LH secretion

1. A gamma-aminobutyric acidB agonist reverses the negative feedback effect of testosterone on gonadotropin-releasing hormone and luteinizing hormone secretion in the male sheep.
Endocrinology. 2000 Nov;141(11):3940-5. A gamma-aminobutyric acidB agonist reverses th... [Endocrinology. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11089523)

Infusion of baclofen, a GABA(B) agonist, into the medial basal hypothalamus (MBH) of castrated rams rapidly increases LH pulse amplitude without altering pulse frequency. The objectives of this study were to determine whether baclofen infusion increased LH in testosterone (T)-treated and intact rams, the increased LH was due to increased GnRH release, and FSH secretion also was increased. In the first experiment we tested the main effects and interaction of baclofen and T on FSH and LH pulse patterns in castrated rams (n = 7). In the second experiment we determined whether baclofen affected GnRH and LH pulses in intact males. Microdialysis guide cannulae were implanted bilaterally into the MBH. After recovery of the animal from surgery, the MBH was perfused using concentric microdialysis probes (2-mm tip) with artificial cerebrospinal fluid (aCSF) for a 3-h control period followed by either aCSF or 1 mM baclofen for 4 h. Blood samples were taken at 10-min intervals. T suppressed mean LH concentrations (10.4 +/- 1.3 vs. 3.3 +/- 1.3 ng/ml) such that LH pulses were undetectable in some T-treated animals during the control period. The change (control period vs. drug infusion period) in mean LH was greater in response to baclofen than in response to aCSF and was not altered by T. The baclofen x T interaction was nonsignificant. Mean FSH was decreased by T, but was not altered by baclofen. In the second experiment hypophyseal portal blood was collected coincident with microdialysis. Infusion of baclofen into the MBH of intact males (n = 7) resulted within 1 h in the onset of frequent and robust GnRH pulses (0.10/h before baclofen vs. 1.57/h after baclofen) that were followed either immediately or gradually by coincident LH pulses. One interpretation is that baclofen acts downstream of the site of action of T. GABA(B) receptors may regulate pulse amplitude in both the presence and absence of T and regulate pulse frequency by modulating the inhibitory effect of T.

[longBallLima]

not to be an ass, but i think promoting a product that may or not have positive impact on hormonal function to steroid users as POSSIBLE is irresponsible and a tad shady.

it would be one thing for a scholar to propose a study on this possibility, but for someone who is marketing the product to use this info without harder evidence doesn't sit well with me. that's just my opinion though, you seem like a knowledgeable individual, nothing personal.

[O.N.]

not to be an ass, but i think promoting a product that may or not have positive impact on hormonal function to steroid users as POSSIBLE is irresponsible and a tad shady.

it would be one thing for a scholar to propose a study on this possibility, but for someone who is marketing the product to use this info without harder evidence doesn't sit well with me. that's just my opinion though, you seem like a knowledgeable individual, nothing personal.

I am not marketing it for that purpose i still highly advocate the use of HCG what i am doing is sharing what information we have and the blood test results, would you want me to not share this information with you? I think you like everyone else would want to know about something like this even if it does or does not work.

[burlyman30]

I am not marketing it for that purpose i still highly advocate the use of HCG what i am doing is sharing what information we have and the blood test results, would you want me to not share this information with you? I think you like everyone else would want to know about something like this even if it does or does not work.

I think the beef that people are having with you is that you inferred the possibility of the product working while using incomplete information as evidence to back it up. Tactics like that would probably get people excited over at bb.com, but really isn't going to be respected in a well informed community. We've already walked through this possibility of on cycle stimulation of LH via Primordial.

I'm sure your product is good at what it DOES do. Lots of people were huge fans of Sustain Alpha and to have a similar product on the market to fill in that gap is a great thing. Promote THAT like there's no tomorrow and no one would have any problem with it.

[Fat Bill Dwyer]

I don't think anybody objects to your N=1 study. Thanks for that. It's just not enough by itself, especially considering you're selling something. Would love to see more bloods when you get 'em.

[longBallLima]

I am not marketing it for that purpose i still highly advocate the use of HCG what i am doing is sharing what information we have and the blood test results, would you want me to not share this information with you? I think you like everyone else would want to know about something like this even if it does or does not work.

I just think you carry an extra responsibility with the information being that you are financially invested in the product. I understand companies do it all the time, with the most ridiculous claims. It just so happens that we happen to have the chance to share our feedback with you.

Again, nothing personal and it is purely my opinion.

[O.N.]

thanks for the feedback guys

[VayneZ]

I know you guys know WAY more than I do in this particular area. Hence, question. Say I were to run just a 6 week cycle, which doesn't really need hCG. Would using res100 be a good add on cycle, for such a short ride? I was actually thinking of using Erase Pro on a short cycle like that, around 1 cap a day. Would res100 aid in any way if I were to add it as well?

[burlyman30]

I know you guys know WAY more than I do in this particular area. Hence, question. Say I were to run just a 6 week cycle, which doesn't really need hCG. Would using res100 be a good add on cycle, for such a short ride? I was actually thinking of using Erase Pro on a short cycle like that, around 1 cap a day. Would res100 aid in any way if I were to add it as well?

Will you be using a compound that aromatizes? Are you prone to acne on cycle? If so, then it may be useful.

[markam]

Maybe 50mgs 6-Bromo? Interested in opinions on this.

[VayneZ]

Will you be using a compound that aromatizes? Are you prone to acne on cycle? If so, then it may be useful.

AndroBulk/AndroHard/Mechabol. And not really prone to acne.