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Rodja
02-26-2013, 06:57 PM
You may have been selling yourself short the entire time.

Halcyon Strength and Conditioning: The Cortisol Paradox And The Death of a Boogeyman (http://halcyonsc.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-cortisol-paradox-and-death-of.html)

burlyman30
02-26-2013, 08:11 PM
You may have been selling yourself short the entire time.

Halcyon Strength and Conditioning: The Cortisol Paradox And The Death of a Boogeyman (http://halcyonsc.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-cortisol-paradox-and-death-of.html)

PhoenixGamer, where are you?

weekend
02-26-2013, 08:16 PM
lately i've been feeling like my body looks good proportionally to the amount of time i spend working out.. more is always better it seems lol

Rodja
02-26-2013, 08:38 PM
lately i've been feeling like my body looks good proportionally to the amount of time i spend working out.. more is always better it seems lol

On a similar note, the next one will be about how temporary overtraining aka overreaching is a GREAT thing.

weekend
02-26-2013, 10:40 PM
nice, how much training is overreaching? though im sure your total pounds moved per session per unit distance is likely much higher than mine (havent counted) it seems i do perform a shit ton more reps...

i usually lift for 90-100 minutes 5 days a week.

milehighguy
02-26-2013, 11:05 PM
i usually lift for 90-100 minutes 5 days a week.

That seems like a ton of time in the gym.

Bucks
02-26-2013, 11:17 PM
That seems like a ton of time in the gym.

If your "0n" you don't want to leave the gym. You want every mfr to know your the badass mfr in the gym and your in NJ!

Sorry it's the cycle talking.

Fat Bill Dwyer
02-27-2013, 07:10 AM
So the take away is if you are trying to build LBM then you should train with intensity and should not be afraid to go over an hour?

I certainly agree and tend to think that cortisol as a catabolic physique destroyer is way overplayed. People won't buy cortisol control if they're not afraid of cortisol.

The West study is pretty interesting because it's big and all the dudes are on the same program; however it might not be totally applicable to all the guys who post here. The cortisol measurments for the West guys happened at week 6 of a 12 week training program right after a session of leg presses. The subjects were more-or-less untrained to begin with, and everybody was probably still taking advantage of newbie gains. I think that the cortisol measurments in this study are probably really good indicators of how hard those guys pushed on that particular workout, and that that is probably a good indicator of how hard they pushed in the gym in general.

So IMHO the takeaway from the West study seems to be: Newbie gains are best for the guys who are able to train the hardest.

Another funny little thing in the West study is its reference to another study that showed Newbie gains are better in guys who drink milk, which gives the impression that if a untrained guy wants to put on LBM quick he should train hard as hell and drink a lot of milk.

Where's Breathmetal? Somebody tell that dude he had it half right.

Sorry about going off on newbie gains. It's good to know that cortisol spikes aren't going to kill my gains.

DJM
02-27-2013, 07:23 AM
nice, how much training is overreaching? though im sure your total pounds moved per session per unit distance is likely much higher than mine (havent counted) it seems i do perform a shit ton more reps...

i usually lift for 90-100 minutes 5 days a week.

same, im near 1hr half......on many days, and i just do one bodypart, (last night chest was a good 1hr15, 6 exercises)
conversely i may get out in under an hour.......no set time, just how i feel and what work has to be done

Rodja
02-27-2013, 07:43 AM
nice, how much training is overreaching? though im sure your total pounds moved per session per unit distance is likely much higher than mine (havent counted) it seems i do perform a shit ton more reps...

i usually lift for 90-100 minutes 5 days a week.

Overreaching has more to do with an increase of overall volume and intensity and depends on your work capacity when you are starrting.

From my perspective, the body with adapt to hypertrophic volume really quickly (within a few weeks). Now, when you increase both hypertrophic volume concurrently with the top end of Prilepin's chart, then you will most likely overreach within a few weeks. The best example that I can think of is the transmutation phase of block periodization when you are training at 90% 4x/week for 2-3 weeks. This is the phase where you intentionally overreach to achieve supercompensation.

weekend
02-27-2013, 09:24 AM
Well, ill have to look a lot of those words up.. Haha.

burlyman30
02-27-2013, 09:41 AM
Another funny little thing in the West study is its reference to another study that showed Newbie gains are better in guys who drink milk, which gives the impression that if a untrained guy wants to put on LBM quick he should train hard as hell and drink a lot of milk.

Where's Breathmetal? Somebody tell that dude he had it half right.



LOL.

burlyman30
02-27-2013, 09:48 AM
nice, how much training is overreaching? though im sure your total pounds moved per session per unit distance is likely much higher than mine (havent counted) it seems i do perform a shit ton more reps...

i usually lift for 90-100 minutes 5 days a week.


same, im near 1hr half......on many days, and i just do one bodypart, (last night chest was a good 1hr15, 6 exercises)
conversely i may get out in under an hour.......no set time, just how i feel and what work has to be done

I always found the cortisol argument interesting, but never compelling enough to change my training. It's typical for me to train 90 minutes to two hours on 2 or 3 bodyparts, not including any cardio.

Anyone ever pay attention to how the top BBers from the 70s trained? Arnold would spend 3 or 4 hours a day in the gym. He never struck me as someone who suffered from cortisol overload. Granted, he was anabolically assisted. But these days, so are we with our intra workout proteins, creatine, and other helpful compounds. And that's when we aren't on a PH or AAS cycle.

weekend
02-27-2013, 09:50 AM
That seems like a ton of time in the gym.

Well... How much time do you spend and what do you look like?

I lift heavy usually for only about half the time i spend in the gym. The rest is some low joint stress higher rep and usually slower tempo, trying to cultivate a massive pump. I also notice my cardio is working a lot harder in the second half of a session, like I'm almost lazy for the first 15-30 min but the end of a workout for me is always super intense even though its during those first 15-30 I would set PRs

- - - Updated - - -


I always found the cortisol argument interesting, but never compelling enough to change my training. It's typical for me to train 90 minutes to two hours on 2 or 3 bodyparts, not including any cardio.

Anyone ever pay attention to how the top BBers from the 70s trained? Arnold would spend 3 or 4 hours a day in the gym. He never struck me as someone who suffered from cortisol overload. Granted, he was anabolically assisted. But these days, so are we with our intra workout proteins, creatine, and other helpful compounds. And that's when we aren't on a PH or AAS cycle.


^^^this! Every time I go long I think of pumping iron and how he repeats many times how many hours he spent in the gym.

Jelisej
02-27-2013, 10:25 AM
As for cortisol bit- I agree 100%, I've been fighting anti-cortisol propaganda for years on pp and now swole source forum, but things is some- guys found out that by lowering cortisol they can (temporary) increase testosterone- if you can sell supps that increase money- you'll get some serious money....
And in reality- after training if your cortisol is too low- you will feel like shit.

For 60 min bit- I disagree, strongly. OK for experienced athletes, lifters their body adjust a bit so they can train little bit more like 10-15 mins more, more than that is not good. Its not that others said it- my own research and my own bloodwork confirms this. And if you have to train more than 90 mins- than you should take a week off sometimes to allow your hormone levels to recover.

burlyman30
02-27-2013, 10:31 AM
As for cortisol bit- I agree 100%, I've been fighting anti-cortisol propaganda for years, things is some guys found out that by lowering cortisol they can (temporary) increase testosterone- if you can sell supps that increase money- you'll get some serious money....
And after (over)training if your cortisol is too low- you will feel like shit.

For 60 min bit- I disagree, strongly. OK for experienced athletes, lifters their body adjust a bit so they can train little bit more like 10-15 mins more, more than that is not good. Its not that others said it- my own research and my own bloodwork confirms this. And if you have to train more than 90 mins- than you should take a week off sometimes to allow your hormone levels to recover.

How does this fit with the training of Olympic weightlifters? They train up to 8 hours a day.

weekend
02-27-2013, 10:35 AM
How does this fit with the training of Olympic weightlifters? They train up to 8 hours a day.

i disagree with jeli, and think everybody is different. like i feel like 90 minute workouts are just perfect... an hour always feels like i sell myself short. i start to feel bad after training past 120 minutes usually, but i did a 2 a day last week that totaled 3 hours in one day... felt awesome until the next day!

but oly lifters get a lot of breaks between their low rep work so 8 hours of training might only add up to the equivalent of what we do in 2 - 3 hours.

Jelisej
02-27-2013, 10:58 AM
How does this fit with the training of Olympic weightlifters? They train up to 8 hours a day.

How do we compare to Olympic weightlifters?
Or professional tennis players?
How do they feel/look when they get bit older?

weekend
02-27-2013, 11:15 AM
How do we compare to Olympic weightlifters?
Or professional tennis players?
How do they feel/look when they get bit older?

good point.

longBallLima
02-27-2013, 11:42 AM
As for cortisol bit- I agree 100%, I've been fighting anti-cortisol propaganda for years on pp and now swole source forum, but things is some- guys found out that by lowering cortisol they can (temporary) increase testosterone- if you can sell supps that increase money- you'll get some serious money....
And in reality- after training if your cortisol is too low- you will feel like shit.

For 60 min bit- I disagree, strongly. OK for experienced athletes, lifters their body adjust a bit so they can train little bit more like 10-15 mins more, more than that is not good. Its not that others said it- my own research and my own bloodwork confirms this. And if you have to train more than 90 mins- than you should take a week off sometimes to allow your hormone levels to recover.

Never got bloods on it or anything of the sort, but I can physically feel what you describe. 60 min is the sweet spot for me, 75 is about the limit of what I feel is productive.


How do we compare to Olympic weightlifters?
Or professional tennis players?
How do they feel/look when they get bit older?

yup

Right Hook
02-27-2013, 11:54 AM
Stopanni had a similar article on this paper in Flex. Overall I think people are making way to big of deal over an acute study (much in the way they use to for acute testosterone responses). Even the authors say the correlation is weak.

Eur. J. Appl. Physiol., 2012 vol. 112(7) pp. 2693-702
Associations of exercise-induced hormone profiles and gains in strength and hypertrophy in a large cohort after weight training
West, DW; Phillips, SM
The purpose of this study was to investigate associations between acute exercise-induced hormone responses and adaptations to high intensity resistance training in a large cohort (n = 56) of young men. Acute post-exercise serum growth hormone (GH), free testosterone (fT), insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1) and cortisol responses were determined following an acute intense leg resistance exercise routine at the midpoint of a 12-week resistance exercise training study. Acute hormonal responses were correlated with gains in lean body mass (LBM), muscle fibre cross-sectional area (CSA) and leg press strength. There were no significant correlations between the exercise-induced elevations (area under the curve-AUC) of GH, fT and IGF-1 and gains in LBM or leg press strength. Significant correlations were found for cortisol, usually assumed to be a hormone indicative of catabolic drive, AUC with change in LBM (r = 0.29, P < 0.05) and type II fibre CSA (r = 0.35, P < 0.01) as well as GH AUC and gain in fibre area (type I: r = 0.36, P = 0.006; type II: r = 0.28, P = 0.04, but not lean mass). No correlations with strength were observed. We report that the acute exercise-induced systemic hormonal responses of cortisol and GH are weakly correlated with resistance training-induced changes in fibre CSA and LBM (cortisol only), but not with changes in strength.

burlyman30
02-27-2013, 01:04 PM
One thing not really differentiated here in the discussion is training style. Heavy, lower rep sets with several minutes between them will no doubt affect a cortisol response different from high rep sets done 30-60 seconds apart, as would a briskly paced jog/run if all 3 activities were done for 60, 90, or 120 minutes.

Rodja
02-27-2013, 03:41 PM
As for cortisol bit- I agree 100%, I've been fighting anti-cortisol propaganda for years on pp and now swole source forum, but things is some- guys found out that by lowering cortisol they can (temporary) increase testosterone- if you can sell supps that increase money- you'll get some serious money....
And in reality- after training if your cortisol is too low- you will feel like shit.

For 60 min bit- I disagree, strongly. OK for experienced athletes, lifters their body adjust a bit so they can train little bit more like 10-15 mins more, more than that is not good. Its not that others said it- my own research and my own bloodwork confirms this. And if you have to train more than 90 mins- than you should take a week off sometimes to allow your hormone levels to recover.

Cortisol is not going to be low after training. It will always be elevated since it is a response to metabolic stress, but to what level depends upon a myriad of factors. Cortisol modulators also are generally not marketed as test boosters since they will only increase the T:C ratio and not so much the test levels themselves.

As far as training length goes, my geared sessions last upwards of 3 hours each since I'm working up to very high weights in the >90% range where extra rest is needed. I can guarantee you that there is no way in hell that anyone could knock these out in less than 90 minutes. I'm curious as to what exactly you are looking for in these draws, the frequency, the phase of training, etc.

Jelisej
02-28-2013, 10:59 AM
Training wise- I cant compare to you, and majority of other readers here cant either, you are different league altogether. You set a goal for yourself, and you are determined to get there- no matter what and you are aware of possible consequences and ready to accept them if they happened. I actually respect that- but majority of others if they try to follow your route will have their fingers burned.

As for cortisol- I said that if cortisol after exercise is too low which is bit different than low- if its low than they should report to ER immidiately. If its not where it should be (burned adrenals) than they will not feel to well, majority will feel kind-of depressed. And also body will pump in adrenaline which is also not good- it will cause sleep issues, raised blood pressure etc... and will prevent or at least make hormonal recovery very difficult.

Lot of research comparing weightlifters training an hour or so or less had increase in test. levels, on other hand endurance athletes have opposite effect. I will feel free to say that endurance trainings are quite unhealthy.

As from my own research- I compared long training 90 mins 3X a week, agains 4 trainings a week with 60-65 min trainings 4X a week.
In long training sessions tt would be around 100 ng/dl lower- but considering that my body can make only 30-35 ng/dl of surpluss it means that I need 3 extra weeks of "good conditions" (complete rest or light training, enough sleep) to recover to normal levels.

Obvioulsy, all that is different if someone is on cycle... But again, here I'm representing "average Joe" or random guys- and when these guys get overexcited, usualy it does not end up good.


BTW- you may find this study interesting:
Hormonal responses to consecutive days of heavy-resistance exercise with or without nutritional supplementation (http://jap.physiology.org/content/85/4/1544.full)

Rodja
02-28-2013, 11:12 AM
Training wise- I cant compare to you, and majority of other readers here cant either, you are different league altogether. You set a goal for yourself, and you are determined to get there- no matter what and you are aware of possible consequences and ready to accept them if they happened. I actually respect that- but majority of others if they try to follow your route will have their fingers burned.

As for cortisol- I said that if cortisol after exercise is too low which is bit different than low- if its low than they should report to ER immidiately. If its not where it should be (burned adrenals) than they will not feel to well, majority will feel kind-of depressed. And also body will pump in adrenaline which is also not good- it will cause sleep issues, raised blood pressure etc... and will prevent or at least make hormonal recovery very difficult.

Lot of research comparing weightlifters training an hour or so or less had increase in test. levels, on other hand endurance athletes have opposite effect. I will feel free to say that endurance trainings are quite unhealthy.

As from my own research- I compared long training 90 mins 3X a week, agains 4 trainings a week with 60-65 min trainings 4X a week.
In long training sessions tt would be around 100 ng/dl lower- but considering that my body can make only 30-35 ng/dl of surpluss it means that I need 3 extra weeks of "good conditions" (complete rest or light training, enough sleep) to recover to normal levels.

Obvioulsy, all that is different if someone is on cycle... But again, here I'm representing "average Joe" or random guys- and when these guys get overexcited, usualy it does not end up good.


BTW- you may find this study interesting:
Hormonal responses to consecutive days of heavy-resistance exercise with or without nutritional supplementation (http://jap.physiology.org/content/85/4/1544.full)

That didn't answer anything that I asked. Time in and of itself doesn't tell us anything regarding the actual training, the length of each phase, the volume/intensity, nutrition, etc. There are many variables that play into this and time spent in the gym is only one of them and is actually not the most important aspect as overall conditioning of the person plays a role in the time and rest needed to complete a given bout of exercise. Also, you would need bloods from before, during, and after each phase with the same conditions before each blood draw as test levels themselves fluctuate throughout the day.

It really seems like that, in your particular instance, that your work capacity is very low if it takes your body that long to adapt and that long of a recovery period needed as well. Work capacity/conditioning is something that very few people discuss these days because it has been ignored as one of the deciding factors of recovery and improvement. BTW, I am not talking about going for a jog when I say increasing work capacity.

DJM
02-28-2013, 11:19 AM
I will feel free to say that endurance trainings are quite unhealthy.


interesting

personally i dont agree, and i dont care how many reports are posted of shifts in bloods, cortisol, t levels ect, theres a point where for me, some things are over analyzed.......a hard/intense 90min workout does me good......i play sports also, more so younger, and spent hours on the field, never thought it was unhealthy

burlyman30
02-28-2013, 11:43 AM
Time in and of itself doesn't tell us anything regarding the actual training, the length of each phase, the volume/intensity, nutrition, etc. There are many variables that play into this and time spent in the gym is only one of them and is actually not the most important aspect as overall conditioning of the person plays a role in the time and rest needed to complete a given bout of exercise.

Echos my sentiments above. I've seen guys spend 3 hours in the gym and get very little work done. Conversely, when I'm pressed for time, I'll squeeze a 90 minute workout into 45 minutes and I can tell a big difference in the amount of intensity (assuming intensity is defined as equal work in less time or more work in equal time).

sandman
02-28-2013, 12:00 PM
The cortisol timeframe is fine and dandy, but who in their right mind wants to stay at the gym any longer than an hour or hour and a half at the time? If your spending three hours then what kind of life is that?

24 hours in a day
8 hours work, add an hour to get ready for work in the morning 9 hours
3 hours in the gym
8 hours of sleep

that leaves you with 4 hours a day? If there is any extra benefits for staying at the gym longer are the benefits that much greater than someone who only trains an 1 1/2 hours and is it worth not having a life because of the benefits?

Rodja
02-28-2013, 12:39 PM
The cortisol timeframe is fine and dandy, but who in their right mind wants to stay at the gym any longer than an hour or hour and a half at the time? If your spending three hours then what kind of life is that?

24 hours in a day
8 hours work, add an hour to get ready for work in the morning 9 hours
3 hours in the gym
8 hours of sleep

that leaves you with 4 hours a day? If there is any extra benefits for staying at the gym longer are the benefits that much greater than someone who only trains an 1 1/2 hours and is it worth not having a life because of the benefits?

Unless you're a powerlifter, you won't understand and nobody trains everyday.

sandman
02-28-2013, 12:49 PM
Unless you're a powerlifter, you won't understand and nobody trains everyday.

Unless lifting is their full time position then I see no need to stay in the gym that long.

Rodja
02-28-2013, 12:56 PM
Unless lifting is their full time position then I see no need to stay in the gym that long.

And you'll never be as strong as you can possibly be with that mentality. It all boils down to how badly you want something and what sacrifices you are willing to make in order to make a goal a reality. I still have a life and lifting is only a portion of that.

sandman
02-28-2013, 01:04 PM
And you'll never be as strong as you can possibly be with that mentality. It all boils down to how badly you want something and what sacrifices you are willing to make in order to make a goal a reality. I still have a life and lifting is only a portion of that.

I guess strength training isn't worth it to me. I don't worry about how strong I am considering most of those guys look like shit anyway. But I still stand by the fact that no way 3 hours in the gym is worth it over an 1 1/2 hours. A 1 1/2 hour traning session will still lend enough volume to grow into an aesthetically pleasing physique.

Rodja
02-28-2013, 01:09 PM
I guess strength training isn't worth it to me. I don't worry about how strong I am considering most of those guys look like shit anyway. But I still stand by the fact that no way 3 hours in the gym is worth it over an 1 1/2 hours. A 1 1/2 hour traning session will still lend enough volume to grow into an aesthetically pleasing physique.

You're ignorant when it comes to powerlifting and particularly geared powerlifting so it's best you not speak about an are where you have zero knowledge. I'm not vain and would much rather be strong than have abs (and I've had abs). It's extremely common for people to say that they don't care about strength, but they're always the ones looking on when someone is about to bench 600 or squat 800.

sandman
02-28-2013, 01:17 PM
You're ignorant when it comes to powerlifting and particularly geared powerlifting so it's best you not speak about an are where you have zero knowledge. I'm not vain and would much rather be strong than have abs (and I've had abs). It's extremely common for people to say that they don't care about strength, but they're always the ones looking on when someone is about to bench 600 or squat 800.

Yeah I am ignorant because I see no point in it. I'll be 31 years old soon, I'm past thinking I'm a tough guy who could lift big weights, I'd rather have a body that I worked on sculpting into something that looks good.

http://crossfitbattlefield.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/power-louie.jpg

any drunk at any irish bar could look like this

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-n1e1Ya9sb74/TngkbCQzQBI/AAAAAAAAAUk/u5pnSp0P6yE/s1600/bodybuilder-flex-wheeler-pics.jpg

technical training shaped this body, not a sloppy guy just throwing big weights around

sandman
02-28-2013, 01:19 PM
http://i.imgur.com/pIhk5.jpg

Again no thank you

http://npcnewsonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Mens-Physique-Overall.jpg

much more respectable

markam
02-28-2013, 01:21 PM
"Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience"

sandman
02-28-2013, 01:22 PM
"Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience"

yeah i'm seeing that, one track minded is not the way to be

markam
02-28-2013, 01:25 PM
yeah i'm seeing that, one track minded is not the way to be

Yep, you win :)

Rodja
02-28-2013, 01:26 PM
Yeah I am ignorant because I see no point in it. I'll be 31 years old soon, I'm past thinking I'm a tough guy who could lift big weights, I'd rather have a body that I worked on sculpting into something that looks good.

http://crossfitbattlefield.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/power-louie.jpg

any drunk at any irish bar could look like this

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-n1e1Ya9sb74/TngkbCQzQBI/AAAAAAAAAUk/u5pnSp0P6yE/s1600/bodybuilder-flex-wheeler-pics.jpg

technical training shaped this body, not a sloppy guy just throwing big weights around

Facepalm. Powerlifting is infinitely more technical than BB'ing. Funny how you bring up your age because you'd think you'd be old enough to realize that there are other goals and perspectives out there. If you're into BB'ing, that's your prerogative, but to disrespect someone based simply until their goals is pretty immature. I could sit around and make fun of BB'ers for hours, but who am I to say that someone's goal is stupid.

EDIT: I'm not saying that PL'ing is the only way to train. What I am saying is that different goals require different amounts of work and sacrifices. Performance v aesthetics will always be a debate, but that's a value issue that cannot be quantitatively measured. Each have their own merits and what one chooses to do with their life is their business. Simply because it is not the way I train does not belittle the work and/or focus it takes.

Jelisej
02-28-2013, 01:28 PM
"Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience"

I dont think that anyone here is an idiot, it is just that we all have different opinions. I always avoid some topics, and I regret that I took part in this one, as "recreative" I definitely have no place here, as sometimes differences between peoples goals and ideas are too big.

sandman
02-28-2013, 01:32 PM
Facepalm. Powerlifting is infinitely more technical than BB'ing. Funny how you bring up your age because you'd think you'd be old enough to realize that there are other goals and perspectives out there. If you're into BB'ing, that's your prerogative, but to disrespect someone based simply until their goals is pretty immature. I could sit around and make fun of BB'ers for hours, but who am I to say that someone's goal is stupid.

Weren't you the one who implied that BB'rs are vein. All I said was I'd rather look like a piece of granite over a slob who can throw more weights around. And no powerlifting is not more technical.

Powerlifters are mainly judged on 3 lifts right?
Bodybuilders are judged literally on a whole body of work

It's ok, you can lift your heavy weights and I'll train for shape and structure. As long as we're both having fun doing it, thats what matters.

Rodja
02-28-2013, 01:39 PM
Weren't you the one who implied that BB'rs are vein. All I said was I'd rather look like a piece of granite over a slob who can throw more weights around. And no powerlifting is not more technical.

Powerlifters are mainly judged on 3 lifts right?
Bodybuilders are judged literally on a whole body of work

There is inherent vanity within BB'ing as it is gauged upon a certain look and yes, powerlifting is far more technical both in the programming and performing the actual lift. The actual lifting technique used by many of the top BB'ers is rather sloppy. Comparing the judging used between them is a completely separate argument as there is not a way to quantitative measure a physique; it is all a matter of perception upon the judge, which is why there is frequently controversy.

ryansm
02-28-2013, 01:54 PM
How does this fit with the training of Olympic weightlifters? They train up to 8 hours a day.

We wouldn't train for 8 hours continuously but certainly over a 12 hour span--example a 3-a-day split. However, we also do not do this all of the time, like Rodja stated it is supercompensation and needs to be done correctly< which at times its difficult and takes a lot of experience and detailed logging of your training sessions. Each individual is different, consequently in my experience women, for the most part, cycle through faster than male counterparts.

ryansm
02-28-2013, 01:57 PM
but oly lifters get a lot of breaks between their low rep work so 8 hours of training might only add up to the equivalent of what we do in 2 - 3 hours.

To an extent, but it certainly isn't condensed to the that amount, although we train sports specific we utilize many other training modalities.

ryansm
02-28-2013, 02:01 PM
How do we compare to Olympic weightlifters?
How do they feel/look when they get bit older?

lol...terrible:) Although are we comparing elite level training, regardless of sport, to gym goers? Professional bb'ers put their bodies through hell as well. By the way you can garner training aspects from many different areas imo..certain concepts such as volume can relate.

DJM
02-28-2013, 02:28 PM
- flex wheeler is a notorious 'sloppy' trainer technique wise
- ill say power lifting is much more technical
-being said im into bodybuilding, but to say i dont like pushing heavy is dumb, im 33, AND I STILL love the idea i can move a bar full of plates

carry on.....................

DJM
02-28-2013, 02:33 PM
but oly lifters get a lot of breaks between their low rep work so 8 hours of training might only add up to the equivalent of what we do in 2 - 3 hours.

jmo, benching 500-600lbs for a rep with boards seems more demanding/intense than my 5 sets of 15 on bench.....i dont think you can measure the difference using rest and so on to compare......just mentally it must be draining to get so psyched up to gut under a 600lb bar, regardless if youve been sitting and breathing the last 20min


at the end of the day, any athletic endeavor that is pursued with intention and determination will demand something of the human body, regardless what the athlete looks like or is doing

sandman
02-28-2013, 04:12 PM
- flex wheeler is a notorious 'sloppy' trainer technique wise- ill say power lifting is much more technical
-being said im into bodybuilding, but to say i dont like pushing heavy is dumb, im 33, AND I STILL love the idea i can move a bar full of plates

carry on.....................

Branch Warren is the same way today. Different conversation but it goes on to show form is all relative and you don't necessarily need to do what most people consider proper form.

But a bodybuilding routine is much more tactical as in what exercises need to be done, what angles will hit the muscles or shape the muscles in a certain way, for example what needs to be done in order to give the V taper. If a bodypart is lagging when to lay off one bodypart and pay extra attention to another. How much cardio will make you look flat vs just enough. What intensity to do cardio. So much more to think about when it comes to training.

burlyman30
02-28-2013, 05:43 PM
I would venture to say that the word "technical" is being used to mean two different things based on what I am reading here. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but sandman is saying bbing is technical because there are so many aspects that need to be thought about within the sport. Rodja is saying that the individual lift is extremely technical because there are so many aspects to lifting a heavy weight in a fashion that allows the best leverage while avoiding sticking points and plateaus.

Your both right, but talking about completely different things.

markam
02-28-2013, 05:49 PM
Sorry as it's off topic, but are you the guy to ask about discounts for AMS, Forerunner?

Apologies re my quote, no offence intended, just messin.

Fat Bill Dwyer
02-28-2013, 06:07 PM
The actual lifting technique used by many of the top BB'ers is rather sloppy.

Wait, are you saying I can get huge even with shit technique? Godamnit, I've been wasting all my time watching those "So You Think You Can Squat" videos.

milehighguy
02-28-2013, 07:51 PM
being said im into bodybuilding, but to say i dont like pushing heavy is dumb, im 33, AND I STILL love the idea i can move a bar full of plates

Well said...

And I do give props to the guys that PL here. I'm not into it but damn impressed with the weight you guys can push around!...

Sorrow
02-28-2013, 09:33 PM
Well somewhat amazed I missed this one going on. Interesting points and counter points. I'll stay clear of any bb vs pl debate. Im obviously biased. Interesting discussion though. and lively. Of course many of the top tier bodybuilders have powerlifted. Including Arnold, but thats something lost to history. You pull up Louie, or Mark Bell, and I'd counter with Stan, or Frankl. But I'm seriously not interested in joining that portion of this thread.

For the record I train 3 days a week and typically each session is 2-3 hours, although squat is normally closer to 4 hours. That's preparing for a equipped competition. With a full powerlifting team. The average powerlifting total of our group is 2020 lbs. (prior to this sundays XPC competition when that average will go up)

When training Raw only (no gear) my sessions are still at the 2 hour mark.

In fact looking back very rarely do I have a session at or under 1 hour in duration. And I have at lease a four year history where I can say prior to any hormonal assistance of any kind I averaged an increase in my total of 100lbs a year, and an increase of roughly 10 lbs of lean body mass. So obviously I feel my methods and duration/intensity work for me. I have never stopped to worry about cortisol levels.

DJM
02-28-2013, 10:06 PM
I have never stopped to worry about cortisol levels.

^^^^ without the net and all the over thinking, not many would

hard work gets results, for me itll trump a spike in cortisol everyday

Macdon1588
03-01-2013, 12:17 AM
So anyway, back to this cortisol discussion. The long and short seems to be that short spikes in cortisol as it relates to weight lifting is probably beneficial. It's the prolonged cortisol that creates the issue right? I think that my works constant stress and screwed up hours elevate my cortisol which can be a huge stumbling block to fat loss goals, but I'm not sure about its effects on strength. I think like all the rest of the hormones it's tissue dependent. At the end of the day, I think it's a fools errand to single out one specific hormone and say "hormone X" always acts in this manner.

markam
03-01-2013, 02:36 AM
Recently read about using Phosphatidylserine at bedtime to reduce high cortisol levels and improve sleep. I tried it last night (300mgs) and had deep uninterrupted sleep. Don't know if my cortisol levels are high, though there's a fair amount of stress at the moment.

So if if you're suffering from prolonged cortisol levels as Macdon mentioned, maybe this is a way to combat them.

Sperwer
03-01-2013, 03:10 AM
Although it's a bit dated now, Robert Sapolsky's "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers", Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers, Third Edition: Robert M. Sapolsky: 9780805073690: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Zebras-Dont-Ulcers-Third-Edition/dp/0805073698/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362128850&sr=8-1&keywords=sapolsky&tag=xunjiacom0e-20), imo is the best lay guide by a first rate bio-neurologist to the action of glucocorticoids in general, and cortisol in particular. I don't recall that he says so in so many words, but it's clear from his account that it is chronic, not episodic, cortisol imbalances that create problems, including many of the chronic diseases characteristic of our "civilization".

markam
03-01-2013, 04:26 AM
Although it's a bit dated now, Robert Sapolsky's "Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers", Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers, Third Edition: Robert M. Sapolsky: 9780805073690: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Zebras-Dont-Ulcers-Third-Edition/dp/0805073698/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362128850&sr=8-1&keywords=sapolsky&tag=xunjiacom0e-20), imo is the best lay guide by a first rate bio-neurologist to the action of glucocorticoids in general, and cortisol in particular. I don't recall that he says so in so many words, but it's clear from his account that it is chronic, not episodic, cortisol imbalances that create problems, including many of the chronic diseases characteristic of our "civilization".

Better be good, I've just bought it from Amazon along with The Art of War. LOL

Sperwer
03-01-2013, 04:47 AM
It IS good, but be forewarned, it ain't easy. LOL

Sorrow
03-01-2013, 05:09 AM
Art of war is free in the public domain.

Interesting notion that prolonged not episodic effects are different.

Rodja
03-01-2013, 06:08 AM
So anyway, back to this cortisol discussion. The long and short seems to be that short spikes in cortisol as it relates to weight lifting is probably beneficial. It's the prolonged cortisol that creates the issue right? I think that my works constant stress and screwed up hours elevate my cortisol which can be a huge stumbling block to fat loss goals, but I'm not sure about its effects on strength. I think like all the rest of the hormones it's tissue dependent. At the end of the day, I think it's a fools errand to single out one specific hormone and say "hormone X" always acts in this manner.

Yes, it is the chronic v acute status that changes the game. Cortisol is also one of the primary hormones responsible for free fatty-acid mobilization and fat loss, which is why stims do elevate cortisol. Short bursts of cortisol from weight training, more or less, indicative of some form of metabolic damage and that is exactly what you want from a session.

Now, to what extent is dependent upon the person and for how long depends on the persons work capacity, but that leads into the planned overreaching phase, which is something that I will be writing about soon.

Macdon1588
03-01-2013, 08:16 AM
So, next question, what can be down about chronically elevated cortisol? I believe that pretty good with 7-spray, but I'm done with kind of thing for a while. I'm trying to cut back the stims. I noticed the other day that after a HIIT training session with about some light cardio for a combined total of 30 minutes, that I feel pretty damn good, it's the same for heavy leg day. Is that like the cortisol spike?

markam
03-01-2013, 08:25 AM
Yep, but whether it generally high is the problem (as I've know learnt). If you're stressed and having trouble sleeping may probably indicate high cortisol levels.

Apologies that the girl isn't naked. Will try to do better.

SLEEP ALL NIGHT WITH PHOSPHATIDYL SERINE - Wellness for Life (http://luxuryholistics.com/2011/12/sleep-all-night-with-phosphatidyl-serine/)

Rodja
03-01-2013, 08:44 AM
So, next question, what can be down about chronically elevated cortisol? I believe that pretty good with 7-spray, but I'm done with kind of thing for a while. I'm trying to cut back the stims. I noticed the other day that after a HIIT training session with about some light cardio for a combined total of 30 minutes, that I feel pretty damn good, it's the same for heavy leg day. Is that like the cortisol spike?

That feeling is more likely from endorphins than a cortisol spike. Chronically elevated cortisol can really only be altered via lifestyle change. Some mood elevating supplements may help this, but to what extent is unknown.

Sperwer
03-01-2013, 08:46 AM
I'm also a fan of phosphatidyl serin (still have a stash of endo amp), but whether that is a panacea or even part of the treatment for any particular instance of chronically elevated cortisol would depend I think on the specific etiology of that instance. One of the things I learned from Sapolsky's book is that the causes can be varied, numerous and interactive with one another and produce a cascade of effects. Just trying to treat one symptom or modulate one pathway of elevated cortisol without an understanding of the whole syndrome in the case presented probably would not be optimally effective or effectual at all. As Rodja says, chronically elevated cortisol is likely a sign that a (major) lifestyle change is in order.

Macdon1588
03-01-2013, 09:10 AM
I'm also a fan of phosphatidyl serin (still have a stash of endo amp), but whether that is a panacea or even part of the treatment for any particular instance of chronically elevated cortisol would depend I think on the specific etiology of that instance. One of the things I learned from Sapolsky's book is that the causes can be varied, numerous and interactive with one another and produce a cascade of effects. Just trying to treat one symptom or modulate one pathway of elevated cortisol without an understanding of the whole syndrome in the case presented probably would not be optimally effective or effectual at all. As Rodja says, chronically elevated cortisol is likely a sign that a (major) lifestyle change is in order.



I wish I could change my lifestyle. But simply put, I make too much money to quit this job and I am not qualified enough to replace my income. I'm working on it though because no amount of money is worth putting up with a job that is possibly killing you very slowly and keeping you from realizing your dreams.

Jiigzz
03-19-2013, 02:09 AM
To switch of AMPK activation (or at least limit it post exercise), Leucine is a very good and viable option. It plays a huge role in activating mTOR post exercise.