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weekend
03-14-2013, 08:14 PM
i just finished taking clomid for 5 weeks @ 50 mg, got gyno during PCT unfortunately.

not sure if my aromasin was bunk or just not dosed high enough, or if clomid gave me gyno even.

anyway, i'm now running adex @ 2 mg/day and ralox @ 120 mg/day to try and combat this gyno, and i'm going in for bloods tomorrow. the situation with my nips is not really improving, and not really getting worse, but they really hurt like a bitch and look puffy and cone like.

was wondering if ralox shows up as estrogen on blood tests, as it is technically an estrogen?

getting the female hormone panel from privatemdlabs.

Scope75
03-14-2013, 08:19 PM
Who's aromasin where you using?? RC or RX

weekend
03-14-2013, 08:20 PM
UGL

BBG
03-14-2013, 10:20 PM
I believe the ralox can show up as estrogen, but I'm not 100%. Would like to know the answer as well.

weekend
03-14-2013, 10:24 PM
I believe the ralox can show up as estrogen, but I'm not 100%. Would like to know the answer as well.

well its a non-sensitive estradiol only..

guess we'll find out on monday when i get my results.

ralox and adex aren't doing shit, nipples are sensitive as hell... straight painful with any contact which happens surprisingly often and unavoidably. i can tell my testosterone is raising and the chems are legit though, nuts are busting big time...

if my bloods show tanked estro from the adex, ill keep running these through the bottle and look for improvements... if nothing happens i guess ill get surgery.

Scope75
03-14-2013, 10:58 PM
Surgery...
Your gyno is that bad??

burlyman30
03-14-2013, 11:16 PM
well its a non-sensitive estradiol only..

guess we'll find out on monday when i get my results.

ralox and adex aren't doing shit, nipples are sensitive as hell... straight painful with any contact which happens surprisingly often and unavoidably. i can tell my testosterone is raising and the chems are legit though, nuts are busting big time...

if my bloods show tanked estro from the adex, ill keep running these through the bottle and look for improvements... if nothing happens i guess ill get surgery.

Give it time. If the chems are good, the bloods will get in line and the ralox will do its thing. Only a couple months ago I was in a ton of pain from gyno from my TRT. Let the estradiol lower and keep it there for a while. This wont go away in a couple weeks, but it will get better.

burlyman30
03-14-2013, 11:19 PM
was wondering if ralox shows up as estrogen on blood tests, as it is technically an estrogen?

getting the female hormone panel from privatemdlabs.

shouldn't. Im on anastrozole (1mg daily) and ralox at 60mg daily and Estradiol showed up at 15, a healthy norm for males. In contrast, prior to the treatment, I was at 48 when the range high is 38.

weekend
03-15-2013, 12:36 AM
it looks pretty tit like from the side now. and it wakes me up at night and it hurts many times a day and during a lot of lifts... and when i'm sitting there it will just randomly ache. generally, it blows and i'd almost rather just get it cut out and recover for a month than be annoyed by it all day and all night for probably many months.

longBallLima
03-15-2013, 01:51 AM
Shit, I'd imagine post surgery will compromise a lot of your cycle gains. Did it really get that bad?

weekend
03-15-2013, 02:19 AM
I honestly think it'd be fine. These gains are pretty much in there by now and I've heard it'll take a few months to get in. I haven't taken more than a week off lifting for like over a year so I figure 3-4 weeks out might actually do some good.

But I'm just gonna see if my estro is under control and give it a month before I make any decisions.

The gyno doesn't really look so bad but it feels awful and the lumps are pretty big... Like 3 cm diameter but shaped more like a grape than a sphere.

- - - Updated - - -

The lumps also appeared pretty much overnight in week 3 of post cycle like 3 days after i cut proviron. and then grew over the course of a week. They have been getting increasingly sensitive since but have not grown much since those first 7-10 days. Maybe a little bigger.

O_RYAN_007
03-15-2013, 05:28 AM
I honestly think it'd be fine. These gains are pretty much in there by now and I've heard it'll take a few months to get in. I haven't taken more than a week off lifting for like over a year so I figure 3-4 weeks out might actually do some good.

But I'm just gonna see if my estro is under control and give it a month before I make any decisions.

The gyno doesn't really look so bad but it feels awful and the lumps are pretty big... Like 3 cm diameter but shaped more like a grape than a sphere.

- - - Updated - - -

The lumps also appeared pretty much overnight in week 3 of post cycle like 3 days after i cut proviron. and then grew over the course of a week. They have been getting increasingly sensitive since but have not grown much since those first 7-10 days. Maybe a little bigger.

Did you do post cycle bloods? Im curious what your estro was like after you stopped it all.

weekend
03-15-2013, 10:03 AM
I'm doing bloods today. Wasn't planning on getting bloods until 6 weeks post cycle unless there was a problem lol....

SoCal-Nutrition
03-15-2013, 12:12 PM
it's amazing how quickly a flair up can get out of hand.

good luck, bud!

szary
03-15-2013, 12:51 PM
it looks pretty tit like from the side now. and it wakes me up at night and it hurts many times a day and during a lot of lifts... and when i'm sitting there it will just randomly ache. generally, it blows and i'd almost rather just get it cut out and recover for a month than be annoyed by it all day and all night for probably many months.
All this aching and moodiness sounds like prolactin is quite high too, You can deal with this with some vitex castus agnus and vitamin b6 (at high doses preferably in the morning to save dopamine at night for gh etc ) , although levodopa from mucuna extract and cabergoline are more effective - they both work the same way by stimulating dopamine receptors(so best will be to take them before sleep)
on SoCal-Nutrition I notied some supplements with mucuna extract.lower grade extracts are better because they contain polyphenols - comt and aaad inhibitors (levodopa works then longer)

weekend
03-15-2013, 01:05 PM
All this aching and moodiness sounds like prolactin is quite high too, You can deal with this with some vitex castus agnus and vitamin b6 (at high doses preferably in the morning to save dopamine at night for gh etc ) , although levodopa from mucuna extract and cabergoline are more effective - they both work the same way by stimulating dopamine receptors(so best will be to take them before sleep)
on SoCal-Nutrition I notied some supplements with mucuna extract.lower grade extracts are better because they contain polyphenols - comt and aaad inhibitors (levodopa works then longer)

Does amphetamine help? I have an rx.

szary
03-15-2013, 01:11 PM
Does amphetamine help? I have an rx.

not really different type of action - d1 and d2 receptors and that crazy stuff in ventral tegmental area of brain (ADDICTIVE)
back to the point it may work with levodopa as mild mao B inhibitor

Jelisej
03-15-2013, 01:49 PM
Progesterone-estrogen ratio/balance is very important and when it gets off it very often results in gyno.
I was always wondering when people get gyno on cycle, how much it has to do with adrenal function?

weekend
03-15-2013, 01:53 PM
Progesterone-estrogen ratio/balance is very important and when it gets off it very often results in gyno.
I was always wondering when people get gyno on cycle, how much it has to do with adrenal function?

so, progesterone is a likely culprit in this rather than prolactin yeah?

estrogen probably got high but i don't know... i was definitely really low on test for a week or 2.

szary
03-15-2013, 02:26 PM
so, progesterone is a likely culprit in this rather than prolactin yeah?

estrogen probably got high but i don't know... i was definitely really low on test for a week or 2.

But you didn't mention hot flashes (just the same like old women have). They are typically associated with progesterone increase ( at least progesteron over estrogen in women's case but that is not exactly applicable to men), you can get hot flashes even from progesterone-type substances like guggulsterones or in case of women too large amounts of flax seed lignans (they appear to be tamoxifen like serms)

Jelisej
03-15-2013, 02:26 PM
Prolactin causes nipple sensitivity but AFAIK it cant create gyno, in any case even too low progesterone can end in gyno, but in most cases its both estrogen and progesterone out of whack- in your case you probably had bad androgen:estrogen and progesterone:estrogen and than on top of that its very likely that you had estrogen rebound.
Perfect storm.
Prolactin is like that "walkers" from walking dead, any noise and here they come...

In any case, IMO pct or better said- restoring hormonal balance is priority. Dont worry too much about gyno.

szary
03-15-2013, 02:31 PM
Prolactin causes nipple sensitivity but AFAIK it cant create gyno, in any case even too low progesterone can end in gyno, but in most cases its both estrogen and progesterone out of whack- in your case you probably had bad androgen:estrogen and progesterone:estrogen and than on top of that its very likely that you had estrogen rebound.
Perfect storm.
Prolactin is like that "walkers" from walking dead, any noise and here they come...
I agree to that last point - - prolactin is inflammatory and therefore could be induced locally by simply harassing your nipples, marathon runners get even male lactation on high prolactin and low testosterone , both as results of exhaustion.

weekend
03-15-2013, 02:32 PM
Prolactin causes nipple sensitivity but AFAIK it cant create gyno, in any case even too low progesterone can end in gyno, but in most cases its both estrogen and progesterone out of whack- in your case you probably had bad androgen:estrogen and progesterone:estrogen and than on top of that its very likely that you had estrogen rebound.
Perfect storm.
Prolactin is like that "walkers" from walking dead, any noise and here they come...

In any case, IMO pct or better said- restoring hormonal balance is priority. Dont worry too much about gyno.

it just blows cause im pretty lean and my nipples look like cones. in my opinion, totally ruins my physique.

Jelisej
03-15-2013, 02:45 PM
it just blows cause im pretty lean and my nipples look like cones. in my opinion, totally ruins my physique.

Gynecomastia is problem when it becomes fibrous, but there is plenty of time till that point, and hopefully balancing hormones will resolve the problem. So IMO dont bombard yourself with different supps/phs... be patient. I would not risk going on TRT because gyno.
Once your hormones are ok, if there is no improvement you may take more aggressive aproach.

Jelisej
03-15-2013, 02:50 PM
I agree to that last point - - prolactin is inflammatory and therefore could be induced locally by simply harassing your nipples, marathon runners get even male lactation on high prolactin and low testosterone , both as results of exhaustion.

Any kind of stress raises prolactin, getting stuck in traffic can make prolactin levels increase like 3X. Even nervous patients afraid of injections very often get high prolactin reading.
Consistently high prolactin levels are most common result of either underactive thyroid (when TRH stimulates TSH it also increases PRL) or prolactinoma (tumor on pituary).

weekend
03-15-2013, 03:30 PM
How can I tell if its fibrous? I have lumps that are almost like not smooth but lumpy. Hard. I have a band of fat in an ellipse around my nipple... And I have some gland like lumps on the sides of each pec by the armpit if I pinch around.

What is "ductal threading"?

Jelisej
03-16-2013, 04:05 AM
Sometimes tissue in gyno if it does not go on its own and is left untreated becomes hard to treat with medication and surgery is best option- that gyno becames like dense fiber. but there is a long time before it happens 1 or 2 years or in worst case bit more than 6 months (I think)- so not too worry too much, you have many options till then. At the moment keep your E2 under control, continue with some kind of PCT- and as your natural androgens levels are quite good, it should fix itself, really once you are back into balance.

I dont know what "ductal threading"- they probably refer to swollen milk ducts (part of glands), but that is almost always case with gyno- these glands around nipples are very sensitive- In some folks they are like radar they pick up lot of different hormones shifting, even some folks reported that increase in TT levels (trt for example) they could feel in nipples.
Sometimes these glands can react to some kind of inflammation.

weekend
03-16-2013, 01:13 PM
I will see what my hormones are like once I get my bloods back on Monday...

What do you mean by continue pct? I finished clomid...

I'm still taking toco-8, endoamp, creatine, raloxifene and anastrozole. That's it. But I feel like since my cycle ended 6 weeks ago now pct is over and this is just supplementation/gyno treatment? Eh?

weekend
03-18-2013, 01:29 AM
does anyone think i could see improvement by adding cabergoline or pramipexole?

the reason i ask is because i was just reading about prolactin being involved in stopping sexual arousal, and dopamine (which creates arousal) causes prolactin to lower.

i've noticed whenever i become aroused (sorry if TMI), my nipples look way better and if i do feel them the lumps are super constricted like blood flow is cut off...

then, within a mere minute or so after climax, the nipples become puffy as hell!

i dunno. just a thought.

szary
03-18-2013, 08:55 AM
does anyone think i could see improvement by adding cabergoline or pramipexole?

the reason i ask is because i was just reading about prolactin being involved in stopping sexual arousal, and dopamine (which creates arousal) causes prolactin to lower.

i've noticed whenever i become aroused (sorry if TMI), my nipples look way better and if i do feel them the lumps are super constricted like blood flow is cut off...

then, within a mere minute or so after climax, the nipples become puffy as hell!

i dunno. just a thought.
well I was talking about stimulating dopamine/inhibiting prolactin from the beginning
On the other hand in men dopamine is indeed highly involved in anything sexual - even confidence to pick up a girl is dopamine based , some people with to much prolactin lack inhibition of their moral action as result of to high and to long levodopa administration

Fat Bill Dwyer
03-18-2013, 10:56 AM
does anyone think i could see improvement by adding cabergoline or pramipexole?



brolore says yup.

weekend
03-18-2013, 11:42 AM
i'm a bit surprised by my bloods.. here they are. 577578

- - - Updated - - -

HERE ARE MY PRE CYCLE BLOODS:

Pre-Cycle Bloods:

329330

Jelisej
03-19-2013, 09:55 AM
Your bloods are still influenced by clomid, as it has a long half life.
You should take magnesium citrate, I think 500mg a day is ok- it will ease your hearts job as at the moment your blood is quite thick.

h2s
03-19-2013, 12:43 PM
Nothing on there seems to shock me, the bloodwork looks fine as Jel implied for recently coming off clomid.

szary
03-19-2013, 05:41 PM
You can deal with this alt/ ast problems with some TUDCA there are plenty of some not only liver related benefits of it and now as it gaining popularity it becoming cheaper and cheaper still well below $30 USD for 25 grams.soon it will be as cheap as creatine.

BBG
03-20-2013, 06:12 PM
Oh hey what up, looks like skyward came through for you bro, deserves a thread of its own called "skyward restored my balls, now im a silverback gorilla"

;)

weekend
03-21-2013, 05:41 PM
haha, seems like the anastrozole is working from my bloods, and the ralox tastes legit..

but my balls probably recovered already from the human grade clomid and PP TRS... :rolleyes: