Burly's TRT journey

[markam]

Agmatine...interesting. It just so happens I was sent a free bottle of agmatine by synthetic supplements a few months back. They were supposed to send me an entirely different product and I was going to report back. When I reported the error, I never heard back, so it has just sat in my cupboard collecting dust. 60, 500mg caps. Think this would work on it's own if I wanted to trial it prior to getting CM?

Standard dosing is 1g, either 500mg before breakfast then again 40 minutes before workout or 1gm 40mins before workout. I copied a 'health type' product called Juven which was 7.5g Glutamine, 7.5g Arginine, 2.5g HMB and some B6 with a fizzy orange vit C to mask the taste, and the pumps were very good, but I've read that the production of Nitric oxide elicits free radicals, so it's wise to supplement with anti-oxidants. As usual, hard to really know the facts, but if I can get the same effect from 1gm of Agmatine, I'd rather do that. 6g Citruilline Malate and 1 gm Agmatine works pretty good.

Back to your question, 1g Agmatine on it's own should work, take with plenty of water.

[burlyman30]

^^^ good input, thanks.

[nate3993]

I keep seeing people say 6 grams. The study for ED cites 1.5 grams of l citrulline malate 2x a day. 6 sounds like a lot. Not that there's anything wrong with 6, just if u can get effects at 3, why do 6.

[burlyman30]

I keep seeing people say 6 grams. The study for ED cites 1.5 grams of l citrulline malate 2x a day. 6 sounds like a lot. Not that there's anything wrong with 6, just if u can get effects at 3, why do 6.

I looked at that too. Found out the citrulline malate is 54% citrulline and 46% malic acid, so you have to take double to get the same amount of citrulline.

[Jelisej]

Beet root is a both antioxidant and NO donor, that is why some folks combine it with citruline l malate.

[Freepressright]

Agmatine...interesting. It just so happens I was sent a free bottle of agmatine by synthetic supplements a few months back. They were supposed to send me an entirely different product and I was going to report back. When I reported the error, I never heard back, so it has just sat in my cupboard collecting dust. 60, 500mg caps. Think this would work on it's own if I wanted to trial it prior to getting CM?

Burly, if the dose is adequate, I would hypothesize that it would be worth your while to give it a try. But definitely get some CM. It's great stuff. It will also help with BP and arterial health.

[burlyman30]

Burly, if the dose is adequate, I would hypothesize that it would be worth your while to give it a try. But definitely get some CM. It's great stuff. It will also help with BP and arterial health.

CM will be on my next order from rxwhey. Just waiting for our forum/holiday discount code!

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Scope75]

Who isn't waiting for that code???

[Freepressright]

CM will be on my next order from rxwhey. Just waiting for our forum/holiday discount code!

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

We are expecting a full, detailed report of your progress!

Well, maybe not a FULL report, but it'd be cool knowing if it helped or not. :)

[burlyman30]

We are expecting a full, detailed report of your progress!

Well, maybe not a FULL report, but it'd be cool knowing if it helped or not. :)

Lol... I'll keep the graphic details to a minimum. :rolleyes:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Sperwer]

Lol... I'll keep the graphic details to a minimum. :rolleyes:

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

ok, you can leave out the graphs, but we want the pics AND the vid, Rocco

[burlyman30]

ok, you can leave out the graphs, but we want the pics AND the vid, Rocco

Lol. I'll leave that to the pros. You will all be grateful, I promise.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Scope75]

There's enough short films out already!! Lol

[burlyman30]

There's enough short films out already!! Lol

That could have a double meaning. Lol

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Scope75]

Lol!!
Now its a fetish film too.

[burlyman30]

Ok... just to get things back on track for a minute, I am currently about 2.5 weeks into my TRT treatment.

Just wanted to update on a couple of things I've noticed in regards to sweating.

First off, it is increasing a bit overall. Not excessive, but I notice after walking around in the same shirt for several hours, I'm pitted out a bit and change shirts.

Secondly, night sweats. Again, they are not severe. I'm not waking up in a puddle. But when I wake up, I'm not dry as a bone anymore. My tshirt is damp.

The night time sweating is new over the past two days, and the daily sweating has been over the last week.

Recap of other items:

No morning wood yet. Libido seems to have increased, but is spotty and not high enough to make any attempts.
Somewhat oilier skin.
Brain fog has lifted quite a bit, but still have some memory issues.
Appetite is up, but only very slightly.
Still have some extracellular bloat, feel a little puffy.
Slightly more vascularity in my arms.
Bodyfat seems slightly higher, but could be from the bloat.
Feeling a bit more "vibrant" and "alive", but feel like I'm "not there yet".
The chronic bronchitis is GONE. This happened the first week, and seems to be gone entirely.
Energy level seems to be up. Not to a high degree. But it's there.

Those are the things that come to mind. Feel free to ask questions.

[Sorrow]

Sounds like everything is on the right track! The bloating will probably go down after another 2 or 3 weeks, mine did anyways. But that was also when they brought my injections closer and lowered the dosage. It may be an effect of the 200 vs 150 dose. Either way I'm sure thats temporary while your body adjusts.

Glad the fog lifted. Thats the exact same experience I had! Not necessarily better memory but much easier focus, critical thinking. I would suggest that has more to do with the way we generate memories though. IE what condition you are in when you make the memory makes them easier to recall when in that particular state.

All in all man sounds like you are on the right path! I think another month or two and you'll look back and wonder why you didnt do this sooner! I know we all have our reasons but this is a positive move.

Thanks for the update

[Jelisej]

I would say that all this is more-less expected. Sweating can be increased for number of reasons, so at the moment I guess its impossible to tell. Other thing is night sweats- there are also number of factors and its normal to some extent- I'm wondering though if you wake up in middle night covered in sweat- that could mean E2/adrenal/thyroid issues; but it also very often happens if blood sugar drop during the night.

[burlyman30]

Sorrow, it's great to be parallel to your journey and get your input. You mentioned "we all have our reasons" for TRT. I'd say that the mental fog was actually far more troublesome to me than my disappearing libido. Wife and I are good, no matter what happens with libido (unless it gets too high, then she may not like it). The feeling of well-being and repeated illnesses has been a factor, too. I'd say, though, that the mental fog/memory issues has been the most troubling. It just kept getting worse over a period of years and it was quite concerning for a guy who is normally quite the opposite. On the training side of things, losing fat was by far harder than it ever was, as was building/maintaining muscle. Certainly noticeable to a guy who has been training most of his life.

J, night sweats are things that I have had in the past. I do not wake up in a cold sweat, though. I am pretty sure it has to do with my metabolism cranking up. When I was young/teen/twenties, this happened most every night. Any time I was on an anabolic compound and increasing my caloric intake, this would happen. It's something I most recently experienced 8 or 10 months ago on Trenazone. In the old days, tren was also the worst offender of creating night sweats.

[Jelisej]

If its not yoo bad than its ok. Other thing is there is always logic and everything happens for reason- for example one explanation could be tren does afect thyroid a lot, (if I'm correct), so these things can tell a lot. Also it would be good to monitor body temperature.
You need to be Spetsnaz, ready for anything. And be ready with kalashnikov in hand.:)
Metabolic Temperature Graph (http://www.drrind.com/therapies/metabolic-temperature-graph)

[burlyman30]

^^^ Great resource! Reps forthcoming when the system will allow me. :-)

[Sperwer]

Ok... just to get things back on track for a minute, I am currently about 2.5 weeks into my TRT treatment.

Just wanted to update on a couple of things I've noticed in regards to sweating.

First off, it is increasing a bit overall. Not excessive, but I notice after walking around in the same shirt for several hours, I'm pitted out a bit and change shirts.

Secondly, night sweats. Again, they are not severe. I'm not waking up in a puddle. But when I wake up, I'm not dry as a bone anymore. My tshirt is damp.

The night time sweating is new over the past two days, and the daily sweating has been over the last week.

Recap of other items:

No morning wood yet. Libido seems to have increased, but is spotty and not high enough to make any attempts.
Somewhat oilier skin.
Brain fog has lifted quite a bit, but still have some memory issues.
Appetite is up, but only very slightly.
Still have some extracellular bloat, feel a little puffy.
Slightly more vascularity in my arms.
Bodyfat seems slightly higher, but could be from the bloat.
Feeling a bit more "vibrant" and "alive", but feel like I'm "not there yet".
The chronic bronchitis is GONE. This happened the first week, and seems to be gone entirely.
Energy level seems to be up. Not to a high degree. But it's there.

Those are the things that come to mind. Feel free to ask questions.

My experience is that the sweating and night sweats will diminish and disappear after a few months - although you may, like me, find that your thermostat has been reset and that you now run a bit "hot" all the time.

Bloat also goes away after a bit.

I just don't get "sick" any more, i.e., I don't get all the annoying symptoms of flu, bronchitis, colds, even if I get the infection; I just feel tired. I often don't realize I've even got something until it's gone and the lethargy lifts; recently eg. I had an unsuspected respiratory infection of which I wasn't really aware until it was over and I expectorated a glob of green stuff one morning and the lethargy I had been feeling and that I had attributed to overtraining evaporated.

Bodyfat should start going down.

Anyway, sounds like your ride is going well so far. Enjoy

[burlyman30]

Great input from someone who has already been through all the initial stages of this process. Thanks a ton!
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[Rulk]

Digging the rundown of what your observing Burly. Not neccesarily looking forward to TRT, but this log will make me feel more comfortable when and if go this route.

[Freepressright]

Wife and I are good, no matter what happens with libido (unless it gets too high, then she may not like it).

You may be surprised at how renewing she finds it when your mojo returns. It might be like a new discovery and she may dig the return in passion and intimate attention more than what you think.
alt
Case in point: My soon to be ex-wife. Her sex drive had essentially died on the vine. She never sought it out from me. I had to get it from her and there was zero passion, zero energy and it was akin to using a sex doll (I can assume, never actually done that). But when I was amped up on Dermacrine and Epi, I was very alpha and my level of libido and passion was greatly altered and different enough from the norm that she responded to me differently during that timeframe. It seemed to 'fix' her to a certain degree.

Sadly, the libido issues for her got worse and it was a major impediment for our marriage, but I think you may be surprised at how she takes the new you, so to speak.

[burlyman30]

You may be surprised at how renewing she finds it when your mojo returns. It might be like a new discovery and she may dig the return in passion and intimate attention more than what you think.
alt
Case in point: My soon to be ex-wife. Her sex drive had essentially died on the vine. She never sought it out from me. I had to get it from her and there was zero passion, zero energy and it was akin to using a sex doll (I can assume, never actually done that). But when I was amped up on Dermacrine and Epi, I was very alpha and my level of libido and passion was greatly altered and different enough from the norm that she responded to me differently during that timeframe. It seemed to 'fix' her to a certain degree.

Sadly, the libido issues for her got worse and it was a major impediment for our marriage, but I think you may be surprised at how she takes the new you, so to speak.

No doubt, it would add in a new element to our relationship. Her drive was very low, even when we first married. As she got older and into her mid 40s, that changed around. By then it was too late for me to perform. I'm fortunate that we have good communication and though we hope for an improvement in that area, we know that if it doesn't arrive, we will be ok. We've already survived the current circumstance in our marriage.

[h2s]

Burley, i am similar to you in that any exo hormone seems to give me increased sweating, especially at night. I have never explored the reasons why, but probably because i spent my time more wisely, like saying sorry to the gf for having her wake up in it lol.

Oddly enough, alcohol does the same to me, maybe even worse. After a big night out i will often wake up soaked in a cold sweat.

[burlyman30]

Burley, i am similar to you in that any exo hormone seems to give me increased sweating, especially at night. I have never explored the reasons why, but probably because i spent my time more wisely, like saying sorry to the gf for having her wake up in it lol.

Oddly enough, alcohol does the same to me, maybe even worse. After a big night out i will often wake up soaked in a cold sweat.

I never have to apologize to her, since my 100+ lb rottweiler sleeps in between the two of him. And he doesn't seem to mind. lol.

As far as sweating, in the past I have often experienced (even without any hormonal products) what I've always believed to be a metabolic "ramping up" upon sleeping. Sometimes this also happens if I am only taking a nap. I will wake up very warm, and sometimes sweating. It also seems to happen most frequently when I have eaten a large meal prior to sleeping. I always eat before bed, but the size of the meal will vary.

[BBG]

I want to add to this, but I don't know enough about TRT. So I'll just sit and quietly read your updates.

[burlyman30]

I want to add to this, but I don't know enough about TRT. So I'll just sit and quietly read your updates.

Instead, maybe you could give us your insights on things you know a lot about, like knitting, shampoos, makeup, and feminine hygiene products. :D

[Rulk]

I always start burning up right after I eat. Sleeping I am always cold and never sweat.

[Scope75]

I sweat like crazy when I sleep.
I'll soak one side of the bed then the other. Lol
Sucks when its cold because as soon as you get out of bed your freezing and your bed is going to be cold and wet.

[Rulk]

Scope, do you eat right before bed?

[Jelisej]

I always start burning up right after I eat. Sleeping I am always cold and never sweat.

Possible insulin issues. And probably low metabolic rate- your body is operating at lower speed- probably due to low hormone levels, there are many possible causes there, hypogonadism, hypothyroidism etc.

[Jelisej]

I sweat like crazy when I sleep.
I'll soak one side of the bed then the other. Lol
Sucks when its cold because as soon as you get out of bed your freezing and your bed is going to be cold and wet.

Many possibilities there- maybe too high E2, maybe issues with cortisol, thyroid etc... If you wake up suddenly in sweat than it coul low sugar as well- in any case you should investigate this. When my hormoes are in check- this never happens. When it happens I know that something is out if whack.
People say this is normal on cycle- thats because during cycle hormone level are shifting.

Guys- there is always reason why is something happening. And you need to observe bigger hormonal picture, most of benefits even on TRT comes from lot of different hormones, not just testosterone- for example testosterone bound by SHBG is doing nothing really, it cant enter the cells, only free testosterone can do some action. There are cases of people with med-high tt levels suffering from symptoms of low testosterone (all basically inactive bound with SHBG, which shoul really be released in case of need- but sometimes it does not happen) So, its neccecary to look at hormonal panel as whole- otherwise you'll never get where you want to be.

[burlyman30]

Not a major update, but just wanted to let you know what I'm up to. Physical symptoms are the same as on my most recent update. I am in the gym again this week, but again, extremely light with high reps and a fast pace. Superset back/chest today with calves afterward. Again, I bookended my training with 20 minutes light cardio before and after training, keeping my heart rate between 120 and 140. Total gym time was less than 1.5 hours. I'm very weak, but it just feels good to get some blood pumping. I'm on no deadline. I know it will all come back in time.

[Rulk]

Slow and steady wins the motherfucking race.

[Scope75]

Scope, do you eat right before bed?
Sometimes but I usually stop eating around 8 but lately I've been hungry late at night so I eat. The sweating happens more when I eat but I also sweat when I haven't ate.


Many possibilities there- maybe too high E2, maybe issues with cortisol, thyroid etc... If you wake up suddenly in sweat than it coul low sugar as well- in any case you should investigate this. When my hormoes are in check- this never happens. When it happens I know that something is out if whack.
People say this is normal on cycle- thats because during cycle hormone level are shifting.

Guys- there is always reason why is something happening. And you need to observe bigger hormonal picture, most of benefits even on TRT comes from lot of different hormones, not just testosterone- for example testosterone bound by SHBG is doing nothing really, it cant enter the cells, only free testosterone can do some action. There are cases of people with med-high tt levels suffering from symptoms of low testosterone (all basically inactive bound with SHBG, which shoul really be released in case of need- but sometimes it does not happen) So, its neccecary to look at hormonal panel as whole- otherwise you'll never get where you want to be.

I'll be getting bloods done tomorrow and I'll post them in my log.
I plan to get the complete female panel.

What you mentioned above makes me think it could be low blood sugar because I sometimes take slinsane or something like that before I eat a before bed snack or meal.
Could also be any of the other things to so hopefully the bloods will shed some light into why I sweat so much at night.

[burlyman30]

A couple of notable items I wanted to bring up.

It seems my estrogen is too high. I am starting to get some tenderness and minor swelling under the nipples. I've noticed this for the past 3-4 days, but wanted to make sure I wasn't just being paranoid. I put in a call to the Endo today, hoping to ask if they wanted to see me for this, or just prescribe an AI. Unfortunately, their office was closed today. I will call them back on Monday. The pre-gyno is not severe, but it is present. A few more days won't hurt me. I have some OTC stuff I could take, but if they want me in for a blood test I do not want to skew those results. So I will wait it out.

Over the past two or three weeks, I have hovered between 182 and 184 lbs. Today I weighed 186. Things are trending upward. Bodyfat is the same. I think muscle memory is taking effect. I'm noticing a little thickening of some muscle bellies. It's slight, but I can tell.

My weights continue to be extremely light and high rep. I am easing into this. The burn from the high reps (15-30) is a great pump. I'm not concerned at all with the amount of weight I am moving. I'll have time for that later.

My libido is up just a bit, but nothing major. A little more than none at all is still not enough. But it's at least trending in the right direction.

Energy/vitality is about the same as the previous week. It's not bad, but I feel like there is more to be had.

Mental clarity seems to be just a bit better. It's been ages since I had the clarity of thought to do the kind of writing that I have been doing in my "I Love Steroids" thread. I think the memory seems a bit better, but the jury is still out on that one.

That's all I can think of at the moment. Feel free to ask questions.

[Rulk]

The mental clarity issue... Now you notice some "clarity", but when you didn't, was the "non-clarity" an issue, and were you aware of it? I wonder if I have some "brain-fog", and if one day I will be like, "wow, what a difference", after taking something.

[burlyman30]

The mental clarity issue... Now you notice some "clarity", but when you didn't, was the "non-clarity" an issue, and were you aware of it? I wonder if I have some "brain-fog", and if one day I will be like, "wow, what a difference", after taking something.

I was very aware of my brain fog and poor memory. It was one of the biggest reasons for starting TRT. If you have it to any degree, you know it.

[Coolazice]

Yep!!! :(

[Rulk]

I was very aware of my brain fog and poor memory. It was one of the biggest reasons for starting TRT. If you have it to any degree, you know it.

Most days I feel great and don't really notice any type of brain-fog, but before I started using my cpap, oh hell yes I had brain-fog! The cpap machine has worked wonders for me though. Just checking off my list to see how ready or close I am to talking to a TRT doc...

[burlyman30]

Just checking off my list to see how ready or close I am to talking to a TRT doc...


Pretty much all you have to do is get a blood test, bud. That tells most of the story right there. At your age, it's not likely what you need. It's a 50 year commitment. Don't enter into it lightly or without real cause. It's not the "holy grail" to making things better if you don't really need it.

I have a friend who is now on TRT for the last 5 months. His levels were well within range (500+), but he went through an expensive TRT clinic to raise them. He pays them a lot of money to implant testosterone surgically about every 12 weeks. He spent a couple thousand to get the process started. I asked him tonight what changes he has seen. His answer: "Libido is higher than before, but I never had a problem with that anyway. I recomped a little. And I seem to be in a better mood."

If it were me, I would be severely let down if that was the only difference. His results aren't remarkable because he didn't really need it. The same results he got could have come from a walk in the sunshine, a glass of wine, and a little more cardio.

On the other side of things, I have a friend who tested at 200, uses the topical gel daily, and after 5 months of treatment he feels 35 instead of 45. It's pretty clear his levels warranted usage. His results confirm it.

[burlyman30]

before I started using my cpap, oh hell yes I had brain-fog! The cpap machine has worked wonders for me though.

My friend lost 80 lbs and was able to get off his CPAP completely. I know one of your goals is to lean up. Maybe you can kill two birds with one stone.

[Rulk]

Pretty much all you have to do is get a blood test, bud. That tells most of the story right there. At your age, it's not likely what you need. It's a 50 year commitment. Don't enter into it lightly or without real cause. It's not the "holy grail" to making things better if you don't really need it.

I have a friend who is now on TRT for the last 5 months. His levels were well within range (500+), but he went through an expensive TRT clinic to raise them. He pays them a lot of money to implant testosterone surgically about every 12 weeks. He spent a couple thousand to get the process started. I asked him tonight what changes he has seen. His answer: "Libido is higher than before, but I never had a problem with that anyway. I recomped a little. And I seem to be in a better mood."

If it were me, I would be severely let down if that was the only difference. His results aren't remarkable because he didn't really need it. The same results he got could have come from a walk in the sunshine, a glass of wine, and a little more cardio.

On the other side of things, I have a friend who tested at 200, uses the topical gel daily, and after 5 months of treatment he feels 35 instead of 45. It's pretty clear his levels warranted usage. His results confirm it.


My friend lost 80 lbs and was able to get off his CPAP completely. I know one of your goals is to lean up. Maybe you can kill two birds with one stone.

Damn... When you put it that way ( 50 year commitment ), it definetly makes me realize there is so much I have to look into. I'm just mentally getting everything lined up though, as I think in 4 years I may look more seriously into TRT ( I'll be 40 by then ). Yes, when I weighed 240lbs, my snoring was completely gone and I slept great. I plan on dropping below 240lbs as well.

What do you think about running a low dose test cycle, ( thereputic dosage ), just to test the waters and see how big of a difference it could be?

[burlyman30]

What do you think about running a low dose test cycle, ( thereputic dosage ), just to test the waters and see how big of a difference it could be?

I think you keep putting the cart before the horse. You are lining up things to be ready for trt before you've even had blood work done or are showing symptoms of andropause. Seriously, you either need to have some apparent signs of low test prior to seeing a doc about this who will then test you or you need to do bloodwork on your own to see if you should continue to entertain the idea of trt.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Rulk]

I think you keep putting the cart before the horse. You are lining up things to be ready for trt before you've even had blood work done or are showing symptoms of andropause. Seriously, you either need to have some apparent signs of low test prior to seeing a doc about this who will then test you or you need to do bloodwork on your own to see if you should continue to entertain the idea of trt.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2 I'm just entertaining the idea of doing my first real cycle of aas, for overall condition purposes and jits. I figure I may see a big difference in overall well being and mood, which might suggest that I am getting closer to needing trt. To avoid confusion, i'm asking questions now about TRT, but I think realistically i'm 4 to 5 years away from actually asking a physician about it and getting tests done. That's what I mean when I talk about getting mentally ready for it- I tend to think far into the future for some things.

When you say "apparent signs", I don't think i'm showing any real tell tale signs to pursue trt currently. I'll be getting bloodwork done this winter or spring, as i'm getting ready to run some type of assistance, but it's not for the purpose of finding out where I stand when it comes to trt.

[burlyman30]

I'm just entertaining the idea of doing my first real cycle of aas, for overall condition purposes and jits. I figure I may see a big difference in overall well being and mood, which might suggest that I am getting closer to needing trt. To avoid confusion, i'm asking questions now about TRT, but I think realistically i'm 4 to 5 years away from actually asking a physician about it and getting tests done. That's what I mean when I talk about getting mentally ready for it- I tend to think far into the future for some things.

When you say "apparent signs", I don't think i'm showing any real tell tale signs to pursue trt currently. I'll be getting bloodwork done this winter or spring, as i'm getting ready to run some type of assistance, but it's not for the purpose of finding out where I stand when it comes to trt.

Finding out your baseline stats is the first step, whether you are looking at TRT or just running a cycle. I'm glad to hear you are planning to get that done since you are entertaining some AAS usage in the future.

[Rulk]

Finding out your baseline stats is the first step, whether you are looking at TRT or just running a cycle. I'm glad to hear you are planning to get that done since you are entertaining some AAS usage in the future.

I'll post what I find when I do, and as always, i'll appreciate your feedback.

[BBG]

Burly, I put together all your posts that you have updates on:

Burly's TRT journey (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey.html#post563)
Burly's TRT journey - Page 2 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-2.html#post752)
Burly's TRT journey - Page 4 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-4.html#post1435)
Burly's TRT journey - Page 6 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-6.html#post1778)
Burly's TRT journey - Page 8 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-8.html#post2364)
pics of test Burly's TRT journey - Page 10 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-10.html#post2718)
Burly's TRT journey - Page 10 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-10.html#post2725)
Burly's TRT journey - Page 11 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-11.html#post2727)
3 days post inj Burly's TRT journey - Page 13 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-13.html#post2984)
60hr post inj Burly's TRT journey - Page 13 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-13.html#post3175)
No libido change Burly's TRT journey - Page 15 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-15.html#post3279)
pics o' burly Burly's TRT journey - Page 16 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-16.html#post3518)
protocl changes Burly's TRT journey - Page 17 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-17.html#post3613)
Burly's TRT journey - Page 17 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-17.html#post3655)
weigh in Burly's TRT journey - Page 18 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-18.html#post3775)
target pins story Burly's TRT journey - Page 20 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-20.html#post4280)
100mg pin Burly's TRT journey - Page 21 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-21.html#post4302)
Oiler face/libido Burly's TRT journey - Page 24 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-24.html#post4453)
overall update Burly's TRT journey - Page 27 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-27.html#post4891)
Notable items Burly's TRT journey - Page 29 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-29.html#post5812)

- - - Updated - - -

I figure if you update your first post, people can follow along the whole thing a bit easier.

[Scope75]

Thanks BBG!!
That makes finding things way easier.

[BBG]

Yup, I think for something like this it's pretty important to be able to track the whole progress from beginning to end. Can't wait to see where you're at in another 2-3 months Burly!

[Scope75]

Completely agree and I've tried to read this thread but its so damn long its hard but the timeline and link solve that problem.
Another epic burly thread..

[burlyman30]

Yup, I think for something like this it's pretty important to be able to track the whole progress from beginning to end. Can't wait to see where you're at in another 2-3 months Burly!

Thanks bud. Great idea.

[Scope75]

Thanks bud. Great idea.

Now you have time to write part 9 of I Love Steroids!! Lol

[burlyman30]

Quick update:

Night sweats are mild some nights, and non existent on other nights. I thought they might be trending upwards, but they seem to have calmed down at this point.

Libido, up slightly. At this point, though, I don't think I could make it through a whole session, so unless this increases drastically, or I have some citrulline or a pde5 inhibitor, I'm not making any moves on the wife yet.

Oily skin is still present, but it's not severe. My face doesn't look shiny. No more pimples than the odd one I might get right before I am supposed to be in an important picture.

Gyno/nipple sensitivity is mildly present. I talked with the endo's assistant today, who thinks it will subside, but they want me to update them in another week if it remains. I have noticed this symptom for about a week now.

Blood test happens tomorrow. This is for another RBC count. Endo wants to make sure it does not rise too high, since it was already above the normal range by a hair.

Unless anything else presents itself, I will update again when the blood test comes back.

As always, feel free to ask questions or for clarification.

[Rulk]

Anything of note on performance, gym wise?

Oh I got a video up on FB. Don't know how to get it here at SS.

[burlyman30]

Anything of note on performance, gym wise?


Good question. Right now I am extremely weak from such a longstanding illness and inactivity. However, I have learned over the years to not hurry myself back to high intensity or maximum poundages. In this instance, I am taking that even further. I am doing 5-6 sets of around 30 reps for most bodyparts. This necessitates light weights, good form, and muscular endurance.

I figure that if I can't be strong (strong for me, I mean) at this point, that I should focus on just moving the muscle, pumping the blood, and creating that mitochondrial growth for oxygen and nutrient-carrying as a precursor to future training that will explore the higher weights and the lower reps and will require the muscles to be fed by said mitochondria.

I believe this is my 3rd week back at the gym, and though it doesn't take much to tire me out endurance-wise or weight-wise, I noticed a slight increase in muscle strength today and upped my previous poundages very slightly. I plan to follow this pattern for a while, letting my body be the guide. This might be another month or even two before I have any real urges to start pushing myself.

I know I will get there. I always do. Patience is key right now, as well as observing my body. Currently, I am having some left shoulder issues, which cause pain during chest exercises. Even at low weights, I can feel it. Fortunately for me, these high reps are forcing blood into that area and I hope for some healing in this area. I don't even know how I hurt it. But it hurts, nonetheless.

[Sperwer]

I know I will get there. I always do. Patience is key right now, as well as observing my body.

Good to see you doing this right. Patience is the wisdom (and necessity) of age (he - i.e., me - said, self-justifyingly :D).

[Scope75]

Slow and steady is always better than injured and heavy...

[Jelisej]

All seems good to me, I always tought that nipple sensitivity is due to estrogen/prolactin but I was told that this happens a lot on TRT and nipples sometimes get sensitive to testosterone as well, so if you dont get gyno don worry to much about it. Your current dosing is rather low so sides should be low as well, and so far there is no strain on your endocrine system.

[burlyman30]

All seems good to me, I always tought that nipple sensitivity is due to estrogen/prolactin but I was told that this happens a lot on TRT and nipples sometimes get sensitive to testosterone as well, so if you dont get gyno don worry to much about it. Your current dosing is rather low so sides should be low as well, and so far there is no strain on your endocrine system.

There is some swelling of tissue under the nipple. It is my thought that I will have to attack this with an anti-gyno protocol. I know I can get rid of it, but if it is a case where my body is aromatizing too much all the time, I will have to get on a long term maintenance protocol (AI). I am biding my time and waiting a week before I report back to the endo, as instructed. Who knows? Maybe my body will find a way to balance itself out. But having had gyno previously, I don't expect to be able to let this go untreated forever. I'll keep you all posted on this.

[Jelisej]

I just came across this interesting research, interesting charts showing testosterone levels on people treated with testosterone:
The Androgen-Deficient Aging Male: Current Treatment Options (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1502321/)

[burlyman30]

I just came across this interesting research, interesting charts showing testosterone levels on people treated with testosterone:
The Androgen-Deficient Aging Male: Current Treatment Options (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1502321/)

Great find. Repped and thanks.

I have a 1 friend using pellets and another using the daily gel. Ultimately, I think I should attempt injections twice weekly for the best, most even testosterone levels. I had already thought about using this protocol quite a bit, and these charts confirm the severe drop in blood levels after just 7 days. I can see the nicely maintained levels of a daily gel, which is superior to the transdermal patch--quicker onset, and good stability throughout the day.

I spoke with Eric P. this past week and he suggested I use the gel and apply it to the scrotum for the maximum release of DHT. While I agree this may be most beneficial, I still do not see a daily application of anything working well for me in a logistical sense. I don't even shave daily, let alone see myself taking the time to apply creams/gels every day for the rest of my life.

[Rulk]

I hear ya on being ( not as you put it though ) uncomfortable with having to apply something everyday. Only way I can relate is with my cpap machine, for sleep apnea, which I should and have to use everyday, for the rest of my life. I can miss it for a day or two, or hell, my whole life without it, but I understand the benefit of of using it everyday. Not much else i'm comfortable administering everyday that I know of though. I like the idea of shots or maybe even pellets.

[Scope75]

I don't think I could do the daily application of a gel or anything like that.
My dad is is currently on that Testim gel and I don't think he like it to much. Plus I don't think his endo is all that sharp or doesn't really do it but is dabbling in it now. That's just the way it seems but I could be wrong.
I don't see much point in rubbing 350-400mgs worth of test gel every week when 2 simple injection will leave you feeling about the same.

[Jelisej]

I agree with idea of more frequent injections, as it does keep tt levels more stable- one of the reason for that is due to less aromatisation on more frequent injections which also helps keep tt levels more steady. Applying t gel to scrotum does increase DHT levels big time, but this way is hard to keep steady levels of both testosterone and DHT which makes life more difficult, so IMO it is easier just to supplement with DHT if there is need for it.

[burlyman30]

I agree with idea of more frequent injections, as it does keep tt levels more stable- one of the reason for that is due to less aromatisation on more frequent injections which also helps keep tt levels more steady. Applying t gel to scrotum does increase DHT levels big time, but this way is hard to keep steady levels of both testosterone and DHT which makes life more difficult, so IMO it is easier just to supplement with DHT if there is need for it.

I think getting my endo to prescribe proviron would be a hard sell. I'm not sure if it has any current legitimate medicinal usage.

One thing I found interesting about the charts in that study... notice the steep drop in testosterone from the injection and then notice the less steep drop in estradiol. So there is a point after each injection where the t/e balance gets a bit off kilter. Not drastically, but it does seem to occur.

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[nate3993]

I think getting my endo to prescribe proviron would be a hard sell. I'm not sure if it has any current legitimate medicinal usage.

One thing I found interesting about the charts in that study... notice the steep drop in testosterone from the injection and then notice the less steep drop in estradiol. So there is a point after each injection where the t/e balance gets a bit off kilter. Not drastically, but it does seem to occur.

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i got a question. i know u said u like to stay on the side of uber legal, and don't even like buying rc chems, but why not go get a lil proviron to help ya out? is it job reasons? or just your own personal preference if i may ask.

[burlyman30]

i got a question. i know u said u like to stay on the side of uber legal, and don't even like buying rc chems, but why not go get a lil proviron to help ya out? is it job reasons? or just your own personal preference if i may ask.

I spent some of my early years skirting legalities with purchases of AAS and always felt like I was looking over my shoulder. Its not without reason, either. My original source was caught and prosecuted. Another friend of mine narrowly escaped the same.

I'm at a place in my life where getting caught for something like this is simply not worth the risk, no matter how slim. The legal fees would be financially crippling. And my reputation with family and community would be irreparably damaged.

That being said, if someone I knew well and trusted was to stop by and drop off a "care package" and no purchases could be tracked or proven... ;)

Additionally, I now have a prescription for testosterone, so if I ended up having a stockpile of it, there's really no legal barrier crossed.

My precautions may seem overboard, but with my previous experiences and observations, I am most comfortable by the approach I have chosen.

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[Freepressright]

I think getting my endo to prescribe proviron would be a hard sell. I'm not sure if it has any current legitimate medicinal usage.

One thing I found interesting about the charts in that study... notice the steep drop in testosterone from the injection and then notice the less steep drop in estradiol. So there is a point after each injection where the t/e balance gets a bit off kilter. Not drastically, but it does seem to occur.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Proviron has been used medically to treat both depression and sexual dysfunction. It's always worth asking. The worst thing your doc can say is no.

[burlyman30]

I called the endo Wednesday to follow up with them. On my last call, I reported emergent gyno and they wanted me to wait a week and report back. Gyno symptoms were the same or might have worsened since last week, so I reported this. They asked me to come in for a blood test, which I did today.

I was already scheduled for a 1 month follow up appointment next week. Doing the blood test now is a great thing. It means that I can do the scheduled follow up and have more information from the bloodwork to present to the doctor at the same time. Effectively killing 2 birds with one stone.

I will update all of you next week regarding the results of the new bloodwork (also still waiting for results for the RBC test from 2 weeks ago) and what direction we will be taking regarding gyno and the overall conversation.

[burlyman30]

Quick update:

On a range of 39 being the high mark for estradiol, mine was at 48. It's no wonder gyno is forming.

We talked about lowering my bodyfat to help with aromatization, but I explained to her that I've gained bodyfat because of the aromatization on a relatively good diet and training protocol.

We talked about AIs and I asked her if she ever used SERMs in conjuction with AIs. She had not and asked why I would think it would help. I explained it to her and she looked it up on her computer. Sure enough, there was info on combining AIs and SERMs.

We talked about options and I suggested letro and ralox. She said she would prescribe it and I would be her guinea pig since she has never done anything like that before.

All was good until I got to the pharmacy. Apparently my insurance wants justification for these drugs. So pharm is sending the forms to my doc, who will send them off to insurance. Pharmacy told me this is a 2-3 week process.

While I had them on the phone, I asked the tech how much the drugs would cost without insurance. $192 and $258. A month. Ouch.

So, overall, things are looking up and moving forward, if a bit slow. At least we are on the right track.

Libido is still very weak most of the time. I get short bursts of interest in sexual activity, but nothing that I could sustain for any length of time at this point.

Since my e2 was in normal range while my testosterone levels were anemic, it doesn't surprise me that they are now out of range with the additional exogenous testosterone.

I still do not know where my test levels are. We will be doing a test for that by the end of February. I would guess them to be between 400 and 500 based on how I feel. I would anticipate an increased dosage prescribed in March. Time will tell if my predictions are correct.

I'll keep you updated regarding the upcoming insurance/rx issue. As always, feel free to ask questions or make comments. Thanks for following along.

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[Sperwer]

Ouch on the letro price. I pay about USD15/month for eight full doses thanks to the local govt medical insurance scheme. I never had any discernible gyno since starting TRT, but the E levels started going up, so the doc put me on a maintenance dose as a preventive measure.

[burlyman30]

Ouch on the letro price. I pay about USD15/month for eight full doses thanks to the local govt medical insurance scheme. I never had any discernible gyno since starting TRT, but the E levels started going up, so the doc put me on a maintenance dose as a preventive measure.

What is your letro dose, if you don't mind me asking? She prescribed 1mg/day for me. And 60 mg/day of Ralox.

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[nate3993]

Quick update:

On a range of 39 being the high mark for estradiol, mine was at 48. It's no wonder gyno is forming.

We talked about lowering my bodyfat to help with aromatization, but I explained to her that I've gained bodyfat because of the aromatization on a relatively good diet and training protocol.

We talked about AIs and I asked her if she ever used SERMs in conjuction with AIs. She had not and asked why I would think it would help. I explained it to her and she looked it up on her computer. Sure enough, there was info on combining AIs and SERMs.

We talked about options and I suggested letro and ralox. She said she would prescribe it and I would be her guinea pig since she has never done anything like that before.

All was good until I got to the pharmacy. Apparently my insurance wants justification for these drugs. So pharm is sending the forms to my doc, who will send them off to insurance. Pharmacy told me this is a 2-3 week process.

While I had them on the phone, I asked the tech how much the drugs would cost without insurance. $192 and $258. A month. Ouch.

So, overall, things are looking up and moving forward, if a bit slow. At least we are on the right track.

Libido is still very weak most of the time. I get short bursts of interest in sexual activity, but nothing that I could sustain for any length of time at this point.

Since my e2 was in normal range while my testosterone levels were anemic, it doesn't surprise me that they are now out of range with the additional exogenous testosterone.

I still do not know where my test levels are. We will be doing a test for that by the end of February. I would guess them to be between 400 and 500 based on how I feel. I would anticipate an increased dosage prescribed in March. Time will tell if my predictions are correct.

I'll keep you updated regarding the upcoming insurance/rx issue. As always, feel free to ask questions or make comments. Thanks for following along.

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man. what a load of bs. they should just let you get your shit. healthcare sure is fuked up a lot of the time.

[xxiv]

it's unfortunate that the wheels move slowly but at least you have a dr that is willing to listen and work with you.

Have you called other pharms to see if they could offer you a better out of pocket price? The dr could scrip you 2 weeks to get you through till insurance kick in.... or have her write it for your wife....

[burlyman30]

man. what a load of bs. they should just let you get your shit. healthcare sure is fuked up a lot of the time.

Oh, they would let me buy it... but I'm not interested in spending $450 a month for it. Insurance companies have to watch their backs too, so I have no issue with it. Just gotta go through the process. I'll be on this for the next 40 years, so waiting a couple weeks is not a big deal to me.

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[burlyman30]

it's unfortunate that the wheels move slowly but at least you have a dr that is willing to listen and work with you.

Have you called other pharms to see if they could offer you a better out of pocket price? The dr could scrip you 2 weeks to get you through till insurance kick in.... or have her write it for your wife....

I could always shop online and get a better price. I'll wait to see what insurance says and go from there.

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[nate3993]

Oh, they would let me buy it... but I'm not interested in spending $450 a month for it. Insurance companies have to watch their backs too, so I have no issue with it. Just gotta go through the process. I'll be on this for the next 40 years, so waiting a couple weeks is not a big deal to me.

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gotcha. ur def more patient than me. comes with a little extra age i suppose.

[Sperwer]

What is your letro dose, if you don't mind me asking? She prescribed 1mg/day for me. And 60 mg/day of Ralox.

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2.5mg every three days. We are now considering cutting back to 2.5mg/week, since my E now is quite low.

[burlyman30]

2.5mg every three days. We are now considering cutting back to 2.5mg/week, since my E now is quite low.

Interesting... I know guys who tank their estrogen levels usually suffer with the lipid profile. How's your cholesterol been through this?

[Sperwer]

Interesting... I know guys who tank their estrogen levels usually suffer with the lipid profile. How's your cholesterol been through this?

Remarkably good:
Total: 195
LDL: 125
HDL: 53
TriG: 94

E Levels are

Total Estrogen 40 (on a 40-119 scale)
Estradiol: 13 (on a 7.63-42.6 scale)

[Jelisej]

Burly, in your case I doubt that reducing body fat would have significant impact on E2 levels, at this point its obvious that you need an AI- that should also help with gyno.

Sperwer- your estrogens are just slightly below good range, and you are probably taking lot of other hormones and supps (on top of decent diet and training regime) so I beleive there is no danger for cholesterol issues or bone loss.

[burlyman30]

Gyno continues to be bothersome. I may be waiting 2-3 weeks before the insurance company approves my Rx for the ralox and letro. Since the bloodwork is already done and the scripts have been written, I decided to begin self treatment with an OTC AI made by PES called Erase. I've had this in my stash for a couple of years and never tried it before, so I will be interested in how it compares with my usual go to OTC product which was ATD. I still have some ATD, but it is no longer on the market, so I thought I'd hold on to it a bit longer unless the Erase proves ineffective (which I doubt, too many good reviews). I'll provide a review of the Erase once I have some usage under my belt.

[Rulk]

Burly, if erase works well for you, are you still going to go the Rx?

[markam]

Gyno continues to be bothersome. I may be waiting 2-3 weeks before the insurance company approves my Rx for the ralox and letro. Since the bloodwork is already done and the scripts have been written, I decided to begin self treatment with an OTC AI made by PES called Erase. I've had this in my stash for a couple of years and never tried it before, so I will be interested in how it compares with my usual go to OTC product which was ATD. I still have some ATD, but it is no longer on the market, so I thought I'd hold on to it a bit longer unless the Erase proves ineffective (which I doubt, too many good reviews). I'll provide a review of the Erase once I have some usage under my belt.

Anymore than two caps of Erase and many people (myself included) suffer painful joints, but that's the nature of the product. I had no such issues with DS Triazole and it has been said to be very effective for dealing with gyno. The new Erase is like 3 caps of the og erase plus some other stuff and I had to dose that eod as it was so strong.

[Infamy]

That's harsh about having to wait for the raloxifene and Letro. I think starting now with erase is probably a good idea.

Regarding libido, with an estrogen level that high its no wonder you aren't getting much improvement there. I think when you get it into line with Letro and raloxifene you might see things pick up a little there. Although I should say libido is also mental as well as hormonal and so is a difficult thing to treat.

Fwiw I use Letro and raloxifene after my tren runs to clear up any starting of gyno (tren always seems to start it no matter what AI I use!) it's probably the best option.

Have you thought about putting in an order for some raloxifene and Letro online now just in case the insurance takes longer than expected? At least that way you can know with certainty that you'll have the stuff in a few weeks.

[Scope75]

Like markam said erase is hello nthe joints and I can only handle 2 pills a day for a few days then I have to drop it to 1 a day.
After my first time using erase I'll never use more than 1 pill a day. Stuff works great but a little to much will leave you dry and cracking.

[burlyman30]

Like markam said erase is hello nthe joints and I can only handle 2 pills a day for a few days then I have to drop it to 1 a day.
After my first time using erase I'll never use more than 1 pill a day. Stuff works great but a little to much will leave you dry and cracking.

Dry joints is the nature of the beast when you drive estrogen too low. But my levels are over double the norm. It'll take more than two pills a day to get this under control.

Normal strategy for me is to get myself to the dry joints, back things off a bit, and maintain dose until symptoms disappear.

Infamy... funny you should mention the online stuff. I was looking around for things last night, actually. :)

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[Scope75]

Dry joints is the nature of the beast when you drive estrogen too low. But my levels are over double the norm. It'll take more than two pills a day to get this under control.

Normal strategy for me is to get myself to the dry joints, back things off a bit, and maintain dose until symptoms disappear.

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Was just letting you know erase works good an I use the same strategy as you when using it.
Last time I had bloods ran my estrogen was like 1 point over the high mark and it would get me cracking in 12-14 days at 2-3 pills a day.

[h2s]

Infamy... funny you should mention the online stuff. I was looking around for things last night, actually. :)


The return of the beast. Too much tren talk on this forum finally got to you.

[burlyman30]

Was just letting you know erase works good an I use the same strategy as you when using it.
Last time I had bloods ran my estrogen was like 1 point over the high mark and it would get me cracking in 12-14 days at 2-3 pills a day.

Good input, thanks. What do you think the reason was for your estrogen level being that high?

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[burlyman30]

The return of the beast. Too much tren talk on this forum finally got to you.

Lol

Amazing what you can buy online, actually. I wasn't looking for gear, but there it was staring me in the face. I have to say, my injection hand started to tremble a bit at the thought of it. lol.

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[Scope75]

Good input, thanks. What do you think the reason was for your estrogen level being that high?

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Not really sure, just had the bloods done before a AH/AL run and I was courious to see what my levels where at.
Before my next cycle I'll get a full panel and post it up.

[markam]

Dry joints is the nature of the beast when you drive estrogen too low. But my levels are over double the norm. It'll take more than two pills a day to get this under control.

Normal strategy for me is to get myself to the dry joints, back things off a bit, and maintain dose until symptoms disappear.

Infamy... funny you should mention the online stuff. I was looking around for things last night, actually. :)

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Erase also lowers cortisol very effectively, not sure if it was Erase's effect on estrogen or cortisol, but come to think of it, probably cortisol as other AIs haven't caused comparable joint pain. I've suffered joint pain from Endoamp, (still a fantastic product), the new latest incarnation of DS lean extreme and Erase and Erase pro. Jeez I should just give up. Lol.The cortisol control supps that haven't caused joint pain are SNS Reduce xt and ibe x-lean. For the record, I'm not the only one that finds this. Of course, you can just back down the dosage, (erase), but then estrogen might still be higher than you'd like. This is why I now stick to separate supps for controlling estrogen and cortisol.

[burlyman30]

Erase also lowers cortisol very effectively, not sure if it was Erase's effect on estrogen or cortisol, but come to think of it, probably cortisol as other AIs haven't caused comparable joint pain. I've suffered joint pain from Endoamp, (still a fantastic product), the new latest incarnation of DS lean extreme and Erase and Erase pro. Jeez I should just give up. Lol.The cortisol control supps that haven't caused joint pain are SNS Reduce xt and ibe x-lean. For the record, I'm not the only one that finds this. Of course, you can just back down the dosage, (erase), but then estrogen might still be higher than you'd like. This is why I now stick to separate supps for controlling estrogen and cortisol.

This is great info. To be honest, I never really considered cortisol as a factor in joint pain. Your experimentation with all of the different estrogen and cortisol blockers has given me an education. That's what I love about these forums... Always learning something new.

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[Scope75]

This is great info. To be honest, I never really considered cortisol as a factor in joint pain. Your experimentation with all of the different estrogen and cortisol blockers has given me an education. That's what I love about these forums... Always learning something new.

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Same here!! Never thought about cortisol being factor of my joint pain.

[burlyman30]

I checked with my endo's office today, to make sure the pharmacy sent over the message and form for the pre-authorization on the 2 drugs and in doing so I found out two things:

1) Letrozole was not actually prescribed. Anastrozole was. Letro was part of our conversation, and so was anastrozole... thought she had prescribed the former, not the latter. It's not as strong, but I think for my purposes it will be fine. As always, I welcome your input if you know much about either. I know a little, but am not as well versed as some of you guys.

2) The doc's office never received the form from the pharmacy, or a call, or any notification. Thankfully I called to check today. My endo goes on a one month long vacation to India later this week and I wanted that paperwork filled out and sent in so it can be processed while she is away. If it is processed in 2-3 weeks, I will be just getting started on them by the time she gets back.

While scanning some anastrozole facts quickly (this is the AI that I know the least about), I came upon this study about the IGF-1 increase: Short-term effects of anastrozole... [J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11983488) . I'm going to guess that other AIs have affects on IGF-1, but I haven't looked into it yet. Learning new stuff every day.

[Sperwer]

Given your experiences with this pharmacy, I think it's time for you to find another.

[burlyman30]

Given your experiences with this pharmacy, I think it's time for you to find another.

Haha. True. There are others nearby, but they are either not any better or significantly worse in service. Every pharmacy nearby is in a chain store (Walmart, Walgreens, rite aid, target, etc.). I think they squeezed out all the independent ones in the area.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Sperwer]

That's too bad. Here most of the pharmacies are independents; there's a lot of competition; so service generally is high. Besides my test gel (which is an import item), my endo has me on a variety of unusual local specialty items. I told the pharmacy in the doc's building that I would be filling the same scrip on a monthly basis, and they make it a point to have my stuff in stock every month so I don't have to wait for them to get it every month but just pick it up leaving the doc's. One time we had a scheduling miscommunication, and the next day they sent a messenger with my stuff 30 miles to my house - gratis. One nice thing about living here is that there still is a lot of old-fashioned service on offer.

[markam]

Might be worth reading. Don't know how legit it is, though.

anastrozole vs letrozole (http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/pct-post-steroid-cycle-therapy/anastrozole-vs-letrozole-613680.html)

[Infamy]

I'd love to see burly on the real stuff again giving advice based on years of experience!

You know you're tempted by the tren! I might have some npp going spare at the end of this week too!

Regarding anastrazole and igf-1 I think the elevations are going to be insignificant for body modification purposes sadly. But anastrazole is a fine choice for an AI in trt. It'll be plenty. Personally I prefer aromasin but you are unlikely to get that as its way more expensive.

For gyno treatment it does leave you with a quandary - do you buy Letro separately knowing that it may lower your estrogen too much and so cause your doc to stop the script for anastrazole or do you try anastrazole and raloxifene to get rid of the gyno.

Given that you are tested so much I'd probably see if raloxifene and anastrazole can beat the gyno. The raloxifene is the real work horse in that combo anyway.

[burlyman30]

I'd love to see burly on the real stuff again giving advice based on years of experience!

You know you're tempted by the tren! I might have some npp going spare at the end of this week too!

LOL... first h2s talking about me getting excited about all the tren talk in another log... and now you. My Endo seems pretty easy to work with so far, taking my suggestions for Rx... but since tren doesn't have any current medical uses, I'm pretty sure the "T" in TRT will remain testosterone, not tren. haha.



Regarding anastrazole and igf-1 I think the elevations are going to be insignificant for body modification purposes sadly. But anastrazole is a fine choice for an AI in trt. It'll be plenty. Personally I prefer aromasin but you are unlikely to get that as its way more expensive.

For gyno treatment it does leave you with a quandary - do you buy Letro separately knowing that it may lower your estrogen too much and so cause your doc to stop the script for anastrazole or do you try anastrazole and raloxifene to get rid of the gyno.

Given that you are tested so much I'd probably see if raloxifene and anastrazole can beat the gyno. The raloxifene is the real work horse in that combo anyway.

I will give the anastrozole/ralox a shot. I think it will work fine. If I was in the middle of a tren cycle, this may not be the case, but with just a trt dose, I think it is sufficient.

If I do end up using additional compounds to lower estrogen more, I'm not too worried about the doc getting concerned. It didn't sound like she planned to continue testing for estrogen levels, as long as I was happy with the results. I got the impression that as long as I saw improvement and didn't have terrible low estrogen sides, that she was just going to let it go untested and be part of the therapy. I'll know more as I continue on. I don't see a need for continuing Ralox once the gyno is gone as long as I continue on anastrozole and it is sufficient to keep my estrogen levels in check. However, if she continues to prescribe it after I no longer need it, I may stockpile some of it. You never know what you might need it for... ;)

My next test is at the end of February. It is for the peak and trough (high/low) testosterone levels. No other tests are scheduled at this time. If she decides to increase my dosage of testosterone, I imagine that there will be another peak and trough test done 3 months after said dosage change. I have an idea that she will have no issues with increasing dosage as long as I am in the mid to mid-low range. She mentioned to me "I can't increase your dosage until we get the tests done", so it sounds like increases are typical for her as long as I am still within reasonable range for it.

[burlyman30]

Just a heads up. I started taking Erase a couple nights ago. Taking 2 caps, 3x/day. If I wasn't on something that was aromatizing constantly, I wouldn't go that high, of course. But it is working. I shed about a pound of water, I'd say. I have the same feeling I get on other AIs... a little bit sleepy, and my skin feels differently... hard to explain... a little numb/tingly, I guess. All evidence of it working, though. I plan to stay on this dose until: 1) my ralox/anastrozole come in, 2) my joints dry up and hurt, necessitating lower doses, or 3) I run out and have to dip into my last bottle of ATD.

With the hormonal shift I am creating, I noticed that I have been sweating considerably more over the last 24 hours. And for no apparent reason. Just sitting down and doing nothing, I will suddenly feel sweat forming. Changed shirts an extra time yesterday because of it.

[Sperwer]

With the hormonal shift I am creating, I noticed that I have been sweating considerably more over the last 24 hours. And for no apparent reason. Just sitting down and doing nothing, I will suddenly feel sweat forming. Changed shirts an extra time yesterday because of it.

Par for the course. If my experience is not just idiosyncratic, the sweating will cease once you've finished crossing over to the dark side.

[Scope75]

My joints dried out from reading your dosesge. Lol
Glad it's working for you and it shows that erase is the real deal.

[burlyman30]

Par for the course. If my experience is not just idiosyncratic, the sweating will cease once you've finished crossing over to the dark side.

I'm sure you are correct. I sweated a bit more when I first started the testosterone, too, and then it balanced out. I'm sure once my body gets to the point where it needs to be, it will stop. I anticipate that this may occur again if she increases my testosterone dosage in March.

[Cobalt]

I've used Erase before, and it works really well. I feel your pain on the sweating, lol.

Are you using the normal Erase, or the Erase Pro?

[iron]

erase is my favorite, x1 a day is more than enough the x2 a day is like a gang rape on my E levels...plus i find the stress at work seems less while i am on it

[nate3993]

erase at 2 a day never destroyed my estrogen as a lot of you speak about.

[burlyman30]

I've used Erase before, and it works really well. I feel your pain on the sweating, lol.

Are you using the normal Erase, or the Erase Pro?


I'm using regular Erase. It was bought a couple years ago, before there was an Erase Pro available.

And yeah... I bet you are sweating, Mr. Tren.

[burlyman30]

Appetite has dropped a bit the last couple of days. I'm not sure if that.is related to lower estrogen or hormonal fluctuations in general, or something completely different.

Sweating continues, but is irregular. I've been getting tired earlier the past two nights, which is odd for me.

[nate3993]

maybe supressing cortisol too much is the tiredness? you still doing the crazy high dose of 2 pills, 3x a day?

[burlyman30]

maybe supressing cortisol too much is the tiredness? you still doing the crazy high dose of 2 pills, 3x a day?

I actually missed the mid day dose yesterday because of a wrinkle in my schedule, so only 4 pills yesterday. I think it's too soon to tell what the culprit is. But on the positive side... I nearly got 8 hours of sleep, which is rare for me.

The severity of the pain in the nipples has lessened a bit. They still hurt, but aren't quite as inflamed. Nodules haven't changed in size. It's too early for anything dramatic to have changed, but I figured I'd give an update that yes, Erase is helping.

[h2s]

I actually missed the mid day dose yesterday because of a wrinkle in my schedule, so only 4 pills yesterday. I think it's too soon to tell what the culprit is. But on the positive side... I nearly got 8 hours of sleep, which is rare for me.

The severity of the pain in the nipples has lessened a bit. They still hurt, but aren't quite as inflamed. Nodules haven't changed in size. It's too early for anything dramatic to have changed, but I figured I'd give an update that yes, Erase is helping.

Good to hear.

[Scope75]

Good to hear.

Really good..
Glad erase is working out for you and its doing its job. Will you still be on erase when you get bloods done?
Would be interesting to see just how well it worked.

[burlyman30]

Really good..
Glad erase is working out for you and its doing its job. Will you still be on erase when you get bloods done?
Would be interesting to see just how well it worked.

Chances are that in the next couple of weeks, that the insurance company should approve my scripts and I will no longer need the erase or any other OTC AIs. So, I should be on the scripts by the time the next blood draw happens.

However, they will NOT be doing a blood test for estrogen levels at my next blood draw (late Feb). They will only be testing for peak and trough (high/low) levels of testosterone (pre injection and 24 hours post injection). I do not believe she will order another estrogen test unless I have more complaints.

[burlyman30]

No update yet on the scripts. Erase has helped me drop a fair amount of bloat. Probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 3-4 lbs. I'm using the term bloat because it looks like bodyfat loss to me, but I know that wouldn't be possible. But I look better in the mirror. From my baseline pics I posted near the beginning of this thread, I would say my bodyfat is slightly higher, but only nominally. But a week ago, I was looking quite a bit fattier all across my torso. I hadn't realized it was that much bloat. I had gained what looked like a lot of fat (to me). It's nice to get some of the bloat off. I feel better and look better. I'm thinking that sometime around month 3 on TRT, that I will put up some comparison pics, for better or for worse.

Gyno is still present and painful, but not quite as inflamed. I'm patient, though, and know how to reverse it. Just a matter of time.

Libido fluctuates... some sexual interest to none in a short span of time.

I'll add to this if I think of anything else.

[Cobalt]

Any clue what is causing the flux in libido?

[burlyman30]

Any clue what is causing the flux in libido?

Estrogen fluctuations is what I would presume. I think the erase drops it into a good range and then too low for good libido and then it begins wearing off and estrogen rises into normal range again, or above normal.

Estrogen has as much to do with libido as testosterone does. Either one out of range will mess you up.

[burlyman30]

Still have plenty of fat on me, and I tend to carry more fat on my legs than a lot of guys, but I was at the gym today and took a shot of the wheels. Sorry bout the quality. Between zooming in and my hands being all shaky, this was the best I could do.

And before anyone makes a comment about them... yes, I DID work my calves today. lol.

http://i.imgur.com/KcpuW.jpg

[Scope75]

What's your current weight?
Wish I carried fat on my legs instead of my chest and stomach.

[burlyman30]

What's your current weight?

Weighing 186-188 with what I'm wearing in the pic.

[Scope75]

Weighing 186-188 with what I'm wearing in the pic.

What's the goal when you get this TRT deal all ironed out?
165-175lbs

[burlyman30]

What's the goal when you get this TRT deal all ironed out?
165-175lbs

Probably the same weight, or in that range. Just leaner. I don't see myself getting down to 170 again unless I am very ill or dieting down for a contest, and right now I don't have an interest in either. lol. Trying to keep under 200 for the sake of my joints, mostly.

[Cobalt]

Still have plenty of fat on me, and I tend to carry more fat on my legs than a lot of guys, but I was at the gym today and took a shot of the wheels. Sorry bout the quality. Between zooming in and my hands being all shaky, this was the best I could do.

And before anyone makes a comment about them... yes, I DID work my calves today. lol.

http://i.imgur.com/KcpuW.jpg

I thought you wore pink :confused:

[Scope75]

Probably the same weight, or in that range. Just leaner. I don't see myself getting down to 170 again unless I am very ill or dieting down for a contest, and right now I don't have an interest in either. lol. Trying to keep under 200 for the sake of my joints, mostly.

Hopefully you'll see a nice recomp when your test and estro are right.
Or maybe add a something with your test.

[burlyman30]

Hopefully you'll see a nice recomp when your test and estro are right.
Or maybe add a something with your test.

I anticipate some recomp with the right hormone levels and ratios. I think my test dosage will go up in March based on test results I get next month. We will see. If so, I think that will speed up any recomp efforts.

I should state that I don't expect the drug/drugs to do all the work. Dietarily, I am fairly consistent on a weekly basis. Pretty low carb, no starches during the week with a little loosening of that on the weekend. Carbs generally come from fruits and veggies during the week and occasionally the weekend includes something bready or potatoey.

My cardio is 5-6 days a week, between 30-40 minutes each day. Weights are currently 5-6 days a week, 45-60 minutes each session. Still continuing sets of 30 reps with 30-60 seconds between sets.

[burlyman30]

I thought you wore pink :confused:

Just for you, Big Boy!

[Freepressright]

You order your citrulline malate yet?

[burlyman30]

You order your citrulline malate yet?

Funny you should ask... I just got my order of citrulline today. I put 5g in a shaker with 3 g of agmatine and 30 g peptopro and I'm drinking it now.

Curious... how long do you experience effects from the citrulline?

[Freepressright]

Just clarifying, do you mean how long do the effects remain present, or how long does it take to feel them?

[Freepressright]

Just to fill you in on a few things, at the 3g dose of agmatine and the 5g of CM, you are likely to feel some head pressure, maybe some temporary nasal congestion or even warm ears as a result of the increased blood flow from nitric oxide. This is perfectly normal.

A high dose of CM and AAKG did that to me, much the same as a PDE-5 inhibitor would.

Agmatine, from what I can ascertain from research, is a long-acting compound that delivers quick effects. The CM is more of a long-acting NO compound. Therapeutic doses of the CM are usually recommended at 6g each, but 5g with the 3g of agmatine is probably just fine.

The effects of a single dose of CM can be felt for several hours. I never timed it out, but it's definitely long acting.

[burlyman30]

Just clarifying, do you mean how long do the effects remain present, or how long does it take to feel them?

Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant to ask how long do you find that the effects stay present in the body. Viagra has an effect that last several hours from what I know, so I was trying to get your feedback on the window of effectiveness in regard to erectile function.

- - - Updated - - -


Just to fill you in on a few things, at the 3g dose of agmatine and the 5g of CM, you are likely to feel some head pressure, maybe some temporary nasal congestion or even warm ears as a result of the increased blood flow from nitric oxide. This is perfectly normal.

A high dose of CM and AAKG did that to me, much the same as a PDE-5 inhibitor would.

Agmatine, from what I can ascertain from research, is a long-acting compound that delivers quick effects. The CM is more of a long-acting NO compound. Therapeutic doses of the CM are usually recommended at 6g each, but 5g with the 3g of agmatine is probably just fine.

The effects of a single dose of CM can be felt for several hours. I never timed it out, but it's definitely long acting.

Great feedback, thanks!

[burlyman30]

Got an update on my Raloxifene and Anastrozole scripts. The insurance company has denied coverage of them, stating that the reasons for their use is non-FDA approved. I called the insurance company up to ask if there were any similar drugs that would have been approved. The answer was "No, there are no FDA approved drugs for these conditions".

There is an appeals process, which I will go through. Basically, I have to prove that these drugs have been successfully and safely used previously for this condition. PubMed will be my friend in this. I asked them if I can use studies to prove my case and she said that's exactly what they will need, along with more substantiation of my case from my doctor. So I will be including my estradiol test. My doctor is out of the country until mid-February, so I will likely go the first round of appeals without her help. There is a second round of appeals as well.

In the mean time, it looks like I will order some Ralox and anastrozole online. The gyno is bothersome enough for me to take the next step and send it packing. I have the scripts, so I'm not breaking any laws by doing so. It's likely going to cost me more going this route than if insurance was paying for the majority of the drug. But hopefully, this won't be much more than a month of waiting for things to go through.

[h2s]

That sucks. I used to work in health insurance. Hate the industry, ity is amazing that they find themselves more qualified than doctors to state what is and what isn't ok to take.

[Scope75]

That sucks. I used to work in health insurance. Hate the industry, ity is amazing that they find themselves more qualified than doctors to state what is and what isn't ok to take.

Its all about the money!!!
The items burly wanted was going to cost them a good amount so they will make him jump threw rings and other shit to get what he needs because they know most wont take the time to fight it.
I'm glad to read that burly is going to fight it and I'm sure he'll have plenty of studies to back himself up.

[burlyman30]

Its all about the money!!!
The items burly wanted was going to cost them a good amount so they will make him jump threw rings and other shit to get what he needs because they know most wont take the time to fight it.
I'm glad to read that burly is going to fight it and I'm sure he'll have plenty of studies to back himself up.

Truth. It will cost the insurance company over $400 a month to provide these. I clearly understand their position and I'm not upset, really. I am a little surprised at the denial after the doc gave reason, but this is the reason they have an appeals process. Maybe it's my well seasoned (old) mind, but I'm patient enough to just walk through the process. It takes rime, though, to put everything together. And I'm in the middle of something more pressing this week. So next week I will put it together.

[Scope75]

Yeah the insurance company doesn't want to spend 5k a year so you'll be able to treat your problems correctly.
They'd much rather you get some junk that gives more sides than a product to help things out.
Good luck and I hope you get what you need and stick it to the company. Lol

[longBallLima]

Truth. It will cost the insurance company over $400 a month to provide these. I clearly understand their position and I'm not upset, really. I am a little surprised at the denial after the doc gave reason, but this is the reason they have an appeals process. Maybe it's my well seasoned (old) mind, but I'm patient enough to just walk through the process. It takes rime, though, to put everything together. And I'm in the middle of something more pressing this week. So next week I will put it together.


good thing it's not a life threatening condition though. healthcare is a joke in this country. it's what happens when you let private companies regulate what is a public interest.

[Cobalt]

My wife had an insurance company that flat out lied to us when she signed up.

She takes a medication that runs about $500 a month without insurance.
She signed up for a plan and the guy on the phone flat out said that they covered her medication, specifically her medicine and dose, name brand no less.
After jumping through all of their hoops to get it (and there were a LOT) they finally started to cover it. They only did 2 weeks at a time, so we were paying two copays a month, but it was still cheaper than getting it out of pocket.
They then decided to just stop covering it after 5 months or so, and said that they don't cover that medication. They said the only reason they paid for it before was because of a glitch in the system :mad:
Luckily, they had to record the session where my wife signed up over the phone, which included the sales person saying it was covered.

One big lawsuit later, we were refunded all of her premiums and got a different insurance company that has been covering her for the past 3 years with no issue.

[Jelisej]

Burly, I beleive that one of the reasons for high E2 is low cortisol, unfortunately there is no bloodwork to see what is really going on. Your endo seems unconcerned and you seems to be leaning toward self-medication- If I were you I would do full hormonal panel (even if I had to pay for it) and then get a proper diagnose. Make sure your bloodworks are not screwed, at the moment apart of T-shots its OK to use AI- but leave other stuff as it is for time being.


446

[burlyman30]

it's what happens when you let private companies regulate what is a public interest.

It will become even more prevalent once we are under the healthcare system of the government. I've already talked with some doctors about the system that is being put in place for allowable and non allowable procedures and medications. The government will have to manage costs also. And it's going to get ugly.

They will burn through their budget much faster than anticipated. Government has never been a better manager of costs than private industry because they don't actually have to make a profit. Compare the postal service to FedEx or UPS. The private companies are competitive with the government in price and still make a profit. The postal service, on the other hand, is in the red year after year.

My wife runs the state health care system for Oregon, so I get to see quite a bit of the action. They are currently integrating with Obama care.

[burlyman30]

Burly, I beleive that one of the reasons for high E2 is low cortisol, unfortunately there is no bloodwork to see what is really going on. Your endo seems unconcerned and you seems to be leaning toward self-medication- If I were you I would do full hormonal panel (even if I had to pay for it) and then get a proper diagnose. Make sure your bloodworks are not screwed, at the moment apart of T-shots its OK to use AI- but leave other stuff as it is for time being.

Interesting chart! So while testosterone increases cortisol and estrogen reduces cortisol, cortisol can either stimulate or inhibit testosterone or estrogen output. At least that is how I am reading the chart.

I have another explanation for my estrogen woes, but I would like to get your feedback on it. When my testosterone level was at 110-120, my estrogen level was at around 20. I was not getting any gyno symptoms at around 6 to 1 ratio. After testosterone supplementation, let's say I tripled (still waiting for actual test results) my testosterone levels, or a bit more. At the same conversion ratio, a testosterone level of 360 would result in a estrogen level of 60. My level was 48, I believe. So while my testosterone increased around 300% (my unsubstantiated projection), my estrogen levels increased around 250%. It seems like a pretty direct correlation to me.

I fear that the estrogen and cortisol lowering effects of my current usage of erase would skew the tests at this point, so I'm not sure that we could get any accurate reading of where natural levels would be on solo T-therapy.

[Coolazice]

Do you notice yourself being a little short-tempered or even moody since you started using erase, Burly?

[burlyman30]

Do you notice yourself being a little short-tempered or even moody since you started using erase, Burly?

NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS!!!!

Oh... I mean.. err... no.. what do you mean short tempered or moody? lol

Truth be told, I may be a bit more short tempered, but not drastically. I get annoyed when my wife switches subjects mid sentence and I have no idea what she is talking about. I get annoyed that she has to talk out every scenario at work with me when she gets home. Those scenarios are not new, nor is my annoyance with them. However, my patience level seems to have gone down a notch. Could be other factors though.

[Jelisej]

I dont know much about erase- but it seems that would be wise to get off it for a bit and then get tests. Also dont use ATD either as you get false readings on TT, so try to use some "straight" AI.
T-shots are part of your "normal regimen" so basically- you dont want to see your baseline levels but which is right dosage for you and where you feel best- though your draws must be done on specific day (like day before or after injection- dont know really).
Same thing with other hormones- once you establish baseline you can then see what else needs to be done and then find right medication and dosage.

Short temper can be caused by few things- low cortisol is suspect, but can be E2 as well.

[Coolazice]

NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS!!!!

Oh... I mean.. err... no.. what do you mean short tempered or moody? lol

Truth be told, I may be a bit more short tempered, but not drastically. I get annoyed when my wife switches subjects mid sentence and I have no idea what she is talking about. I get annoyed that she has to talk out every scenario at work with me when she gets home. Those scenarios are not new, nor is my annoyance with them. However, my patience level seems to have gone down a notch. Could be other factors though.

LOL

I tend to get a little more short-tempered (snappy) when I take Erase for a few days or so in a row. I was wondering if it was just me, or what. Any idea why it happens?

I too get annoyed easily when listening to long-winded stories and scenarios about my girlfriend's day. She seems to have the same annoying habit of jumping subjects without notice too. lol... (sort of)

[longBallLima]

It will become even more prevalent once we are under the healthcare system of the government. I've already talked with some doctors about the system that is being put in place for allowable and non allowable procedures and medications. The government will have to manage costs also. And it's going to get ugly.

They will burn through their budget much faster than anticipated. Government has never been a better manager of costs than private industry because they don't actually have to make a profit. Compare the postal service to FedEx or UPS. The private companies are competitive with the government in price and still make a profit. The postal service, on the other hand, is in the red year after year.

My wife runs the state health care system for Oregon, so I get to see quite a bit of the action. They are currently integrating with Obama care.

The Govt health care is gonna be a joke too because of the amount of compromises made to make the health care private industry somewhat happy. So when I say health care here is a joke, I don't mean it's gonna get better with this shitty version of Govt ran healthcare. The whole world does it different, and even coming from a third world country, I can say, probably better. at least in my limited experience.

I know govt doesn't manage cost very well. I wish cost of food for our kids and health of the citizens weren't so managed. Maybe there could be more management in the hefty contracts with private defense companies dedicated to making brown people overseas miserable. That might allow the nation to spend a little bit on making sure its citizens are getting proper treatment, instead of the cheapest.

[burlyman30]

Maybe there could be more management in the hefty contracts with private defense companies dedicated to making brown people overseas miserable. That might allow the nation to spend a little bit on making sure its citizens are getting proper treatment, instead of the cheapest.

Indeed. Between having 900 military bases in 136 countries, the NASA trips to mars, and incredible defense contract spending, we could end the annual deficit, feed the hungry, and provide healthcare without raising taxes to do it.

[longBallLima]

Indeed. Between having 900 military bases in 136 countries, the NASA trips to mars, and incredible defense contract spending, we could end the annual deficit, feed the hungry, and provide healthcare without raising taxes to do it.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread, I'm just one of those guys who's always going on about some stupid politics thing.

But hey, keep the mars thing! Maybe I'll go?? a guy can dream!! :P

[burlyman30]

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread, I'm just one of those guys who's always going on about some stupid politics thing.


No problem. The political/medical stuff is not far out of line with this thread's intent. It is all related.

[burlyman30]

Ok... here's something. Preworkout: Citrulline Malate, 7 grams + Agmatine 3.5 grams... Good pump in the gym. Got home to see if there was any more "life" in Little Burly. Nope. 3 hours after the initial dose, I repeated test. No effect on erection. :(

I don't know if it's a good or a bad sign, but I got a serious lower back pump today. Pretty painful. Makes it seem like the products are working, but not working everywhere. Odd.

[Sperwer]

Ok... here's something. Preworkout: Citrulline Malate, 7 grams + Agmatine 3.5 grams... Good pump in the gym. Got home to see if there was any more "life" in Little Burly. Nope. 3 hours after the initial dose, I repeated test. No effect on erection. :(

I don't know if it's a good or a bad sign, but I got a serious lower back pump today. Pretty painful. Makes it seem like the products are working, but not working everywhere. Odd.

I've lately been doing the agmatine and citrulline malate in similar doses, together with a couple other things in a homebrew detailed in my training log, and getting good results pump wise in the gym. As for its effect on the principal wedding vegetable, I've found that the brew does nothing to get it going but it does seem to prevent or delay premature wilting.

[AresTS]

NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS!!!!

Oh... I mean.. err... no.. what do you mean short tempered or moody? lol

Truth be told, I may be a bit more short tempered, but not drastically. I get annoyed when my wife switches subjects mid sentence and I have no idea what she is talking about. I get annoyed that she has to talk out every scenario at work with me when she gets home. Those scenarios are not new, nor is my annoyance with them. However, my patience level seems to have gone down a notch. Could be other factors though.

Lmfao!!!!!!

I have the same conversations with my chick!!

- Valdez

[Jelisej]

Citrulline+ antioxidant+ NO donor- (lot of people suggest beet root as it provides both). It takes couple weeks for real results to kick in, though some effect can be felt after first dose.
Obviously, citruline cannot fix libido issues, just quality of erections.

[burlyman30]

Citrulline+ antioxidant+ NO donor- (lot of people suggest beet root as it provides both). It takes couple weeks for real results to kick in, though some effect can be felt after first dose.
Obviously, citruline cannot fix libido issues, just quality of erections.

I thought citrulline WAS a donor. I was sure I read that. Can you give me an example of other donors? I've never seen beet root for sale before, but then I cant say I was really looking for it.

[Jelisej]

Citrulline is a donor, but it seems that adding another+ antoxidant makes things better (beetroot is both).
Every shop has a beetroot ;), apart of NO it has betaine and lot of other stuff in it, and is antioxidant.
From on of my previous posts: "beet root combined with viagra can cause serious drop in blood pressure"


From that thread about citrulline:
Supplementation with the NO-boosting substances, L-citrulline and L-arginine, along with antioxidants, has been demonstrated to delay endothelial senescence despite high glucose levels or a high-cholesterol diet. This delay in endothelial senescence through NO and/or eNOS activation may have clinical utility in the prevention and treatment of atherosclerosis associated with menopause and diabetes, and with aging.

[nate3993]

skyward tada. 5mg a day. that'll do it

[Scope75]

skyward tada. 5mg a day. that'll do it
He's not looking for a crutch.

[burlyman30]

skyward tada. 5mg a day. that'll do it


He's not looking for a crutch.

If I could fix, or even improve matters, then I would much rather do that. In the absence of notable results with the above protocols, I may have to go the route of the pde5 inhibitor.

I guess I'll go look for beetroot!

[longBallLima]

If I could fix, or even improve matters, then I would much rather do that. In the absence of notable results with the above protocols, I may have to go the route of the pde5 inhibitor.

I guess I'll go look for beetroot!

i thihk popping some tada to see how it treats you is a good way to go...

[burlyman30]

i thihk popping some tada to see how it treats you is a good way to go...

I may, at some point. Maybe sooner than planned if the beetroot doesn't do the trick.

[burlyman30]

i thihk popping some tada to see how it treats you is a good way to go...

Funny thing happened at the online drugstore... some tada fell into my shopping cart while I was getting ralox and anastrozole.

I still have to get some beetroot and try that along with the citrulline/agmatine. I'll run that stuff til I run out and evaluate whether or not ill want more for future usage.

At this point in my life, ED is half physical and half mental. If I'm worried whether or not I'll rise to the occasion and stay risen, chances are I won't. I need a sure thing for confidence in going forward. If the beetroot works out, then great. If not, its good to have a plan B.

[markam]

Just want to mention that I've been running DAA (Testforce 2) and added in some BPS Endosurge at half dosage (3 caps instead of 6 ed), and let's just say that 'things are looking up' a lot! In fact I'm very surprised at how well this has worked, but maybe it's the combination of 3,4-Divanillyltetrahydrofuran and DAA, I dunno, but it's just ridiculous!

EndoSurge Supplement Facts:
Serving Size: 2 Capsules
Servings per container: 90
Amount per serving %DV
Wide Spectrum Stinging nettle root
Extract for 3,4-Divanillyltetrahydrofuran 533mg **
Mucuna pruriens 75% L-Dopa 83mg **
Mucuna pruriens 25% L-Dopa 100mg **

[burlyman30]

Good info, markam. All those compounds make sense for libido. I have some leftover testforce but being on trt, I doubt it has any application for me now. I've used divanyl in another formulation a couple years back and it was a good libido increaser. Never tried the l-dopa supplement before.

[markam]

Good info, markam. All those compounds make sense for libido. I have some leftover testforce but being on trt, I doubt it has any application for me now. I've used divanyl in another formulation a couple years back and it was a good libido increaser. Never tried the l-dopa supplement before.

Apparently divanyl is useful in PCT providing you don't take too much of it, and L-Dopa can help with protolactin sides. There's some info at Datbtrue regarding divanyl usage in PCT. All I know is that it def gives me a rise.

[AresTS]

How long have you been using the agmatine and citrulline? The citrulline usually takes about 2 weeks to a month for proper build up

- Valdez

[burlyman30]

How long have you been using the agmatine and citrulline? The citrulline usually takes about 2 weeks to a month for proper build up

- Valdez

Good info... I didn't know about the build up time... started on Wednesday, so only a few days so far. If I would have known that, I would have taken it yesterday as well. I didn't work out, so thought it unnecessary.

[AresTS]

Good info... I didn't know about the build up time... started on Wednesday, so only a few days so far. If I would have known that, I would have taken it yesterday as well. I didn't work out, so thought it unnecessary.

Agmatine and Citrulline both have a cumulative effect and take a little bit to work their magic. Stick with it, I'm confident you'll notice the effects you desire. Hardness is definitely a plus I have noticed from that stack.

I also noticed you were looking for beetroot. Just so you know they make beetroot juice as well. It can be found in most health food stores. The positive effect that beetroot will elicit outside of the antioxidant benefit is from the nitrate content. Consuming beetroot juice and beetroot juice for the nitrates may get a little expensive. If that happens you could possibly look into supplementing with KNO3 which is potassium nitrate.

Stick with the Agmatine and Citrulline Malate for a bit and I think you'll notice some effect. Also, not a shameless plug BUT I have noticed different qualities and results in Agmatine across brands. I have consistently seen the best results with SNS agmatine even prior to repping for them.

- Valdez

[BigCLS]

Agmatine and Citrulline both have a cumulative effect and take a little bit to work their magic. Stick with it, I'm confident you'll notice the effects you desire. Hardness is definitely a plus I have noticed from that stack.

I also noticed you were looking for beetroot. Just so you know they make beetroot juice as well. It can be found in most health food stores. The positive effect that beetroot will elicit outside of the antioxidant benefit is from the nitrate content. Consuming beetroot juice and beetroot juice for the nitrates may get a little expensive. If that happens you could possibly look into supplementing with KNO3 which is potassium nitrate.

Stick with the Agmatine and Citrulline Malate for a bit and I think you'll notice some effect. Also, not a shameless plug BUT I have noticed different qualities and results in Agmatine across brands. I have consistently seen the best results with SNS agmatine even prior to repping for them.

- Valdez

I am thoroughly enjoy the sns citrulline at 9g a day.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

[AresTS]

I am thoroughly enjoy the sns citrulline at 9g a day.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

You and me both my man!

- Valdez

[Freepressright]

Burly, I would agree with your assessment that mental ED is probably at least 50 percent of your problem, maybe even more. When I was 23, I had sex with a woman when I was drunk, and was so drunk I couldn't stay hard. That experience haunted me for a few years thereafter. Although I was perfectly able, I was so scared of death of not being able to perform, that I'd have to seriously calm myself down enough to perform.

You may want to just bite the bullet, take some tadalifil and get a couple of sure fire experiences rocking her world back under your belt to fix your confidence. I believe you need that as much as anything at this point.

[burlyman30]

Burly, I would agree with your assessment that mental ED is probably at least 50 percent of your problem, maybe even more. When I was 23, I had sex with a woman when I was drunk, and was so drunk I couldn't stay hard. That experience haunted me for a few years thereafter. Although I was perfectly able, I was so scared of death of not being able to perform, that I'd have to seriously calm myself down enough to perform.

You may want to just bite the bullet, take some tadalifil and get a couple of sure fire experiences rocking her world back under your belt to fix your confidence. I believe you need that as much as anything at this point.

Thanks for your input. Mental is definitely a part of it. But physically, things definitely aren't right. Sometimes, when alone, I can get hard... but even with my assistance, it just won't stay hard. It's unreliable and inconsistent. Talked to my wife about this, who suggested we not even try until erections could get stronger and be reliable. I'm sure she doesn't want to get worked up and then disappointed any more than I do.

[Jelisej]

Thanks for your input. Mental is definitely a part of it. But physically, things definitely aren't right. Sometimes, when alone, I can get hard... but even with my assistance, it just won't stay hard. It's unreliable and inconsistent. Talked to my wife about this, who suggested we not even try until erections could get stronger and be reliable. I'm sure she doesn't want to get worked up and then disappointed any more than I do.

It's going to be difficult for a while- so dont stress yourself too much about it, you'll get there eventually. With your hormonal profile- its miracle that you can get any kind of response, nevermind rock-hard erections. Eventually when your hormones are bit more tuned up, with some help of citrulline, you'll be ok.

[dirkwright]

Good input, dirk.

Sounds like things have gone well for you. Glad to hear that. I would agree about your sentiments of Novadex XT. ATD (the main ingredient) is an effective AI. I've used it many times. I wish it was still legal. :(

Thanks.

I have a new problem now. It seems the lab I've been using has changed the acceptable ranges for Hemoglobin and Hematocrit. For years now, I've tested around 16 for Hemo and about 48 for Hematocrit. The lab lowered the range a little bit which now puts me over. I feel great though.

So, I read up on it. I could donate blood and/or eat grapefruit. The Red Cross doesn't want my blood because they think I have mad cow disease since I was in England for a year in 1980-81. So, I don't know how to get rid of a pint of blood before my retest. Anyone have any suggestions? I read that grapefruit will lower the readings also, so I'm doing that now but I think a simple blood draw would be a more direct way.

[dirkwright]

Funny thing happened at the online drugstore... some tada fell into my shopping cart while I was getting ralox and anastrozole.

I still have to get some beetroot and try that along with the citrulline/agmatine. I'll run that stuff til I run out and evaluate whether or not ill want more for future usage.

At this point in my life, ED is half physical and half mental. If I'm worried whether or not I'll rise to the occasion and stay risen, chances are I won't. I need a sure thing for confidence in going forward. If the beetroot works out, then great. If not, its good to have a plan B.

ED is a horrible thing for a man to deal with. I've struggled with it for many years now (I'm 53), both emotionally and physically. The pde-5 inhibitors seem to do much more than just provide a good erection. They seem to improve control and sensitivity also. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is icariin. It has helped me, but it's not as good as the drugs. Icariin 60 is available here:
Icariin 60â„¢ Horny Goat Weed Extract (Epimedium) HIGH STRENGTH (http://worldabs.com/products/horny-goat-weed-icariin-epimedium)
I take one per day in the morning, just because I think it's good for me. My blood pressure is nice and low.

[burlyman30]

Thanks.

I have a new problem now. It seems the lab I've been using has changed the acceptable ranges for Hemoglobin and Hematocrit. For years now, I've tested around 16 for Hemo and about 48 for Hematocrit. The lab lowered the range a little bit which now puts me over. I feel great though.

So, I read up on it. I could donate blood and/or eat grapefruit. The Red Cross doesn't want my blood because they think I have mad cow disease since I was in England for a year in 1980-81. So, I don't know how to get rid of a pint of blood before my retest. Anyone have any suggestions? I read that grapefruit will lower the readings also, so I'm doing that now but I think a simple blood draw would be a more direct way.

Go to a plasma center. Make $20 for your blood. That and Red Cross are on my radar for the future.

[Jelisej]

Go to a plasma center. Make $20 for your blood. That and Red Cross are on my radar for the future.

Agree on this. Phlebotomy is an option as well.

Burly- regarding ATD which was a potent AI really, at reasonable price- Aromasin is very similar and is related to ATD, only thing with Aromasin is that it lowers SHBG a lot as well- which may be unwanted in your case.

[DJM]

Go to a plasma center. Make $20 for your blood. That and Red Cross are on my radar for the future.

baby aspirin
grapefruit
celery seed
all can help

[burlyman30]

Agree on this. Phlebotomy is an option as well.

Burly- regarding ATD which was a potent AI really, at reasonable price- Aromasin is very similar and is related to ATD, only thing with Aromasin is that it lowers SHBG a lot as well- which may be unwanted in your case.

Interesting about the SHBG... arimidex have the same side effect? Because that's what was prescribed. (Still working on getting insurance approval).

[burlyman30]

Last day of Erase. The past week I lowered my dose from 6 pills/day to 4 a day and added 6 pills a day of AH3. I had some AH3 left over from a while ago and thought I would finish off the bottle.

Results have been good. Much better than with 6 erase. Nipple tenderness has decreased by 75% in the past week with the altered protocol.

Tomorrow I will dose ATD at 50mg/day while finishing off the androhard (just a few days left) and adjust the ATD up or down based on symptoms.

Ralox/anastrozole ahould be here within a week or so. When it arrives, I will shelf the ATD and use the ralox/anastrozole combo.

[markam]

I found that ATD wasn't good for my libido, whereas 6-Bromo didn't cause any negative effects and also was a lot kinder on my joints.

I'm curious as to what Jelisej thinks about adding in some nettle root extract.

[burlyman30]

I found that ATD wasn't good for my libido, whereas 6-Bromo didn't cause any negative effects and also was a lot kinder on my joints.

Interesting feedback! Do you think that was just because 6 bromo is not as strong an AI? That's what it sounds like, unless there are other biological factors at play that I am unaware of.

[markam]

Interesting feedback! Do you think that was just because 6 bromo is not as strong an AI? That's what it sounds like, unless there are other biological factors at play that I am unaware of.

You'd really have to ask an expert for that question, but from my experience, Bromo works pretty damn good, but at higher doses it can be suppressive, same as ATD. Before ATD and Bromo became restricted in the U.S, Iforce made a PCT product, Reversitol which if memory serves correct, contained 12.5mg ATD and 12.5mg 6-Bromo plus some other stuff, (scientific,eh), and was dosed at 3 caps ed week 1, 2 caps ed week 2&3, and 1 cap ed week 4, and was very popular. The current version is different and not that popular.
After my very mild AL/AH cycle, I used my own version based on that formula, and was very happy with the result. I know everyone raves about erase, but I much prefer a mix of low dose ATD and Bromo for cycles that aren't so suppressive.

Basically ATD made me not care about sex, whereas Bromo had the opposite effect. (Much to the wife's dismay. LOL)

[Freepressright]

I found that ATD wasn't good for my libido, whereas 6-Bromo didn't cause any negative effects and also was a lot kinder on my joints.

I'm curious as to what Jelisej thinks about adding in some nettle root extract.

I ran ATD in a PCT years ago. That stuff was hell on my libido.

[markam]

I ran ATD in a PCT years ago. That stuff was hell on my libido.

Agreed. Last thing Burly needs at the moment.

[Jelisej]

ATD is very potent AI, 25 mg a day is overkill for majority.

Arimidex does not reduce SHBG as much as aromasin does.

Stinging nettle is temporary solution- at least thats what I was told.

[burlyman30]

Agreed. Last thing Burly needs at the moment.

LOL. True. It's a stop-gap while I wait for the anastrozole. Should be interesting to see the difference in effect between the two.

On a side note... my joints are feeling decent... all except for my left knee. It started bothering me 2 days ago. Gyno continues to improve dramatically (in my mind) since the addition of the AH3. The size may not have reduced yet, but the pain of inflammation is down dramatically. I'll see what I can do about the knee in the meantime. Plan is to start hyaluronic acid today (assuming I still have some left over), ice it nightly, and take some ibuprofen to get swelling down.

[burlyman30]

ATD is very potent AI, 25 mg a day is overkill for majority.

Arimidex does not reduce SHBG as much as aromasin does.

Stinging nettle is temporary solution- at least thats what I was told.

Good info on aromasin/arimidex. Stinging nettle does work, but yes, it's temporary.

When I've used ATD in the past, 25mg was the usual dose and 50mg was too high. I figured with all the apparent aromatization I'm getting, and the high amount of Erase I've had to take to get things under control, that 50mg is where I would start... if I start getting "crackly" I'll back it down right away.

[markam]

E-Pharm Joint Force

Just used this today on my knees. Instant relief. Haven't used it for quite a while and it always surprises me when it works almost immediately. Very good stuff.

I remember that Beatheart was impressed with this also.

[Infamy]

I'm not surprised you felt like that on atd. It's a substrate for the 5-alpha reductase enzyme so ties it up and leaves some people washed out and with a low sex drive thanks to destroying dht levels. Formestane does the same thing and both are best avoided from my experience.

6-bromo on the other hand doesn't seem to affect the 5ar enzyme. Although pat Arnold thinks it may convert to a suppressive steroid but even he isn't positive about that.


I found that ATD wasn't good for my libido, whereas 6-Bromo didn't cause any negative effects and also was a lot kinder on my joints.

I'm curious as to what Jelisej thinks about adding in some nettle root extract.

[markam]

I'm not surprised you felt like that on atd. It's a substrate for the 5-alpha reductase enzyme so ties it up and leaves some people washed out and with a low sex drive thanks to destroying dht levels. Formestane does the same thing and both are best avoided from my experience.

6-bromo on the other hand doesn't seem to affect the 5ar enzyme. Although pat Arnold thinks it may convert to a suppressive steroid but even he isn't positive about that. yep, and he was pushing his 6-oxo product around this time, if I remember correctly.

[burlyman30]

Great info on the 5ar, Infamy. Learning new stuff all the time. To your knowledge does aromasin or arimidex have an effect on the 5ar?

[Infamy]

Great info on the 5ar, Infamy. Learning new stuff all the time. To your knowledge does aromasin or arimidex have an effect on the 5ar?

Nope. Neither of them do and nor does letro (if you were interested).

[burlyman30]

Nope. Neither of them do and nor does letro (if you were interested).

Thanks. Good info. The ATD info was a surprise, but I knew about the formestane.

[Freepressright]

yep, and he was pushing his 6-oxo product around this time, if I remember correctly.

Fuck that stuff. It was also horrible on my sex drive, my joints hurt and I became instantly enraged with even the smallest inconveniences.

[Avl]

E-Pharm Joint Force

Just used this today on my knees. Instant relief. Haven't used it for quite a while and it always surprises me when it works almost immediately. Very good stuff.

I remember that Beatheart was impressed with this also.


i really liked this for my elbows- good stuff, you just dont get alot of it.

[markam]

i really liked this for my elbows- good stuff, you just dont get alot of it.

My impression also, but it does seem to last quite a time.

[Avl]

yeah- looking back, i think i got a month out of it so i guess i cant complain. i just remember thinking ' wtf, is this the sample size?"

[burlyman30]

Update:

Sorry for the lack of updates, guys. I haven't had a lot to report lately, but I will try to play catch up now.

I was running Erase to help with Estro sides and that helped, but I was using a high dose (4-6) caps to do it. It helped, but while reducing bloat and some gyno pain, it also worsened one of my knee joints.

When I ran out of Erase, I began using ATD, at 50mg/day. I felt overall the same as far as well-being, and the knee seemed a bit improved. At the same time, I seemed to get a bit more reduction of gyno swelling, though the lumps were still present.

About 4 days ago my mail order of ralox and anastrozole arrived. Also a trial of 16 tadalafil (20mg) came with that for experimentation purposes.

Currently taking 1mg/day of anastrozole and 60mg/day of ralox. Currently no adverse effects from this combination. Joints are feeling pretty good so far. Left knee is a little hinky, but not popping and crackling all the time. No shrinkage of gyno lump, but it's too early for that. Gyno inflammation and pain is non-existent at this point, though.

The other night, I tested the tadalafil (20mg) solo... only slight improvement over baseline, so a bit disappointed. However, I was exhausted that night from a strenuous work day. I will try it again solo another night or if opportunity arises, maybe double it and try for something on the weekend.

I also received my powdered beet root and started it last night in conjunction with citrulline malate. Should be interesting.

At the end of this month, I get testosterone levels checked and have a follow up appointment the first week of March. I anticipate the endo raising the dosage, but we will see.

[BBG]

Beet root?

[Freepressright]

It's an N.O. donor and antioxidant

[burlyman30]

Well, I took my last dose of testosterone on Wednesday before my blood tests on Wednesday the 27th... I have been injecting 1/2 the prescribed dose weekly, but the endo wanted 2 week clearance time for the trough (low) test.

I'm not going to like skipping my injection this coming week, since I've been feeling better in general.

The anastrozole and raloxifene seem to be doing their jobs. The estrogen bloat I was dealing with early on remains gone. The gyno pain is gone and there may be a slight reversal of the lumps, but it's hard to say. At the very least, it's growth is halted. Joints are still feeling decent... just the one knee bugs me on occasion.

I'm at the three month mark of TRT at this point and think I should point out that I am feeling substantially better. I am glad that I pursued TRT finally, after avoiding it for years. It was time. I haven't regretted my decision. I think as I get things fine tuned that I will be that much more pleased.

Unless something major occurs, my next update in this thread will be in about 2 weeks, when I should have some more info from the endo.

[Rulk]

Did your appetite increase?

[burlyman30]

Did your appetite increase?

Lol... no, it's always been quite impressive for a guy of my small stature.

[nate3993]

whose tada did u try? i mean, 5mg a day split in 2 doses was enough to elicit pretty good effects after just a couple days for me.

[burlyman30]

whose tada did u try? i mean, 5mg a day split in 2 doses was enough to elicit pretty good effects after just a couple days for me.

ADC.

[Fat Bill Dwyer]

Since you're on a bit of a break I was hoping I could throw in my two cents.

First off, this thread is a delight, and I enjoyed finally catching up on it. It is loaded with interesting stuff and I wish you the best on your TRT journey.

The more I hear about TRT the more it paints this picture in my head as a sort of second puberty; what with its magical and mysterious changes to the body that leave you anxious and confused and never really knowing when you're quite ready to take that next step into physical intimacy.

With that in mind: An old meme for your consideration.
552

[burlyman30]

Lol. Nice post, Bill. Thanks for chiming in and being along for the ride.

Quick update for you guys. I took my peak and trough blood tests and had an appointment scheduled for the endo today, but the test results had not come back in time for the appointment so I rescheduled for a week from today.

Anastrozole and raloxifene are doing their job and keeping excess bloat down. Gyno lumps present, but slowly shrinking. We are headed in the right direction.

Training has been difficult the last 3 weeks. My dad's health got worse and I spent a lot of time at his bedside. He died last week and I've been juggling 4 work projects plus all the funeral plans for the past week. Memorial service was today.

This next month will probably include some fractured consistency with training as well. It's good to have work, but this time everything hit all at once.

Thanks for staying tuned in, and I will have more news from the endo in about a week.

[Coolazice]

Sorry to hear about the passing of your dad, Burly. I dread the day when I'm in a similar situation.

[longBallLima]

My condolences burly. I hope you and your family find the necessary comfort :(

[Sperwer]

Sorry to hear of your father's death, Burly. I went through this with my own Dad a few years ago; he spent a year struggling back from a devastating stroke, then - just as he was almost completely recovered - had another. It took the heart right out of him and he told me he just didn't have another recovery in him. Work was the only thing that kept me going at the time. All the best with keeping it together. I know you will!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jelisej]

My condolences Burly.

[markam]

It's a hard painful time, but you will endure.

Condolences.

[Bucks]

My condolences Burly.

[DJM]

sorry to hear big guy, im sure hes at peace now

[h2s]

My condolences as well.

[nate3993]

My condolences as well.

x2

[Cobalt]

Really sorry to hear about your dad, at least hes resting well now.

[burlyman30]

Blood tests came back. And I have to say, I was a bit surprised by the results. Prior to the tests, I was sure my testosterone levels were still on the lower side of normal and was predicting and increase in medication. However, they were quite high. This leads to more questions about my poor libido. I was assuming my testosterone level was low because my libido was still too low.

They ended up doing more than just peak and trough (low) testosterone. They did an (almost) complete workup on me. Here are the results below:


Testosterone (trough): 836 (241-827)
Testosterone (peak): 2050 (241-827)

Estradiol: 15 (<39)

PSA: 0.47 (0-4.0)

AST: 25 (15-37)
ALT: 62 (30-65)

RBC: 6.13 (4.0-6.0)
HGB: 19 (14.0-18.0)
HCT: 56.2 (42-52)
Platelets: 194 (130-400)

There were many other things tested, but all were in normal levels and I did not see the point of including all of them. Thyroid and ACTH were not tested this time around. Feel free to ask if you want info on a specific test not listed here

RBC/HGB was slightly higher than when I started TRT, but not remarkably. HCT has gone up a bit more. It was at 53, just a point out of range, to now 56. These numbers bothered the endo, but she was also bothered by the initial test which the hemotologist looked at and was fine with. I do think I will probably need to begin doing a monthly blood draw, just to make the endo happy.

She was a bit concerned about my high testosterone levels and asked if I have been irritable. I told her just the opposite, that I have felt better and been happier. We discussed that my libido was still not too good, and she thought that was odd, but had not recommendations for me.

Here's the funny thing: she decided to change my dosage from 200mg every 2 weeks to 100 mg every week. She thought that this would keep that peak level of testosterone from being so high. What I didn't tell her is that I only injected 100 mg the day before the test for my peak levels. The trough test was taken after I had not injected for 2 weeks, and the last injection that I had prior to that test was 100 mg. Had I injected the 200mg prior to the peak test, I can almost put money on the fact that she would have lowered my dosage.

The endo prescribed me another vial of test c and wants me to get retested levels in 60 days. I think between now and then, I will try to have blood drawn two times to see if my blood counts improve a bit.

I look forward to your comments and will try to answer any questions you may have.

As always, thanks again for joining me for this interesting journey. It's great to have you all be a part of it.

[Jelisej]

You should definitely increase frequency of T shots, try doasages of like 40mg. Adrenals should be tested, so thyroid as well. Higher testosterone usualy downregulates both thyroid and adrenals. Thyroid has a big impact on libido, and many people said that from all HRT meds if they had to choose one they would choose thyroid meds.
You should always look at hormonal panel as one big picture, treatments that are based on 2-3 numbers usualy dont give good results.

Also because your thick blood, you should start magnesium citrate
Signs and Symptoms of Magnesium Deficiency - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3wtUn1gWgaw#t=0s)

Magnesium – the Ultimate Heart Medicine | Dr. Sircus (http://drsircus.com/medicine/magnesium/magnesium-the-ultimate-heart-medicine)

Magnesium and Its Health Benefits
(http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/12/17/magnesium-benefits.aspx)

Other thing is- SHBG is missing, and that can tell big story as well.
Also E2 values are suspicious. As far as I know standard E2 tests for people on TRT gives very inaccurate results, and on top of that you are using SERM if I'm not wrong which could also mess up result (altough I dont know to what extent).

[Freepressright]

Something's definitely amiss, as your low libido suggests. With T levels as high as yours, and the fact that you tried 20mg of tadalafil, you should have and should be walking around knocking stuff off of end tables as you pass by. Follow jelisej's advice and have your adrenals and thyroid checked.

[burlyman30]

Hey guys, I wanted to get back with you on some things I have changed and added in my TRT protocol. Some of this may surprise you, given my stance on legalities.

First off, I have changed my dosing structure. Instead of doing the 200mg every 2 weeks like the endo wanted, I had been doing 100mg/week. After my last appointment she recommended going to 100/week to keep the peaks and valleys closer together. So, I actually decided to do 50mg, 2x/week. This has been working out very well, actually, and I no longer feel the peaks and valleys that I could feel during a week. It used to be noticeable after 5 days and I was jonesing for another shot.

Another major change that I made I while ago but waited to go public with was the addition of low dose complementary compound. It just so happened that a friend of mine realllllly wanted some of my Turinabol-LV and offered me some Deca in trade. Having "old man" joint pains from both age and heavy lifting, I took him up on it. I actually added this quite a while ago, but didn't know if it would be something to continue with, so I kept it quiet.

I was dosing Deca at 150mg/week, so mostly to help with joints and connective tissue and I was hoping it would help with some shoulder injuries that had been nagging me. It did add a bit of anabolism, just a bit though. Pumps in the gym increased as well. It was a nice addition to TRT and will use it again.

The shoulder was still not healing very well. A little, but very slowly. Which is where things get a bit more interesting...

My friend realllly likes my Turinabol-LV. He wanted more. It just so happens that I still had (and have) a stash. So he traded me some Tren E about 4 or 5 weeks ago...

I began to use that at a very low dose (75-100mg/wk) instead of the Deca. It did everything the Deca did, but much much more. The shoulder began to heal up, the anabolism was much higher, and my energy levels are much much better. I feel like THIS is what TRT should feel like. I've been missing the energy and motivation and vibrancy factor and this brought it together for me. I feel better in every way.

And get this, FINALLY my libido has picked up. Yes, on a progestin compound. It did improve just slightly on the Deca and would have moreso if the dose was higher (yes, Deca at normal doses gives me good wood). But on the Tren, over the last couple weeks, I've begun to have conversations with the wife about utilizing said wood. Our schedules have been so topsy turvy that we've hardly seen each other the last couple weeks, but at least a conversation is a start.

I should add that I spent probably a month doing research on low dose deca effects, both with and without TRT prior to starting that protocol and probably 2 months of research prior to starting the tren e. Ultimately, increasing my health is the goal, not compromising it.

So there you have it. I may have stirred the pot a little with this news. Feel free to ask questions.

[h2s]

Fucking a, good update :)

[weekend]

Cool, seems strange someone would trade good real gear for tbol lv... Having used both do you consider tbol lv better than tbol in any way??

[burlyman30]

Cool, seems strange someone would trade good real gear for tbol lv... Having used both do you consider tbol lv better than tbol in any way??

The guy didn't want to pay the prices for OT. I told him this was as close as he would get to it for half the price. He has nothing to compare it to (real OT) and loves it. On a side note, he used dbol earlier this year, but still prefers the tbol-lv for gains that stick around. As far as OT, I've never used it (wasn't readily available through my channels in the late 80s to early 90s), but I can confidently say based on those who have used both that OT is superior. Just 2x the price or more.

[DJM]

The guy didn't want to pay the prices for OT. I told him this was as close as he would get to it for half the price. He has nothing to compare it to (real OT) and loves it. On a side note, he used dbol earlier this year, but still prefers the tbol-lv for gains that stick around. As far as OT, I've never used it (wasn't readily available through my channels in the late 80s to early 90s), but I can confidently say based on those who have used both that OT is superior. Just 2x the price or more.

iv used both
tbol lv 90-120mg
oral turinabol 50mg
not even close, as long as the ot is legit and not something else repackaged
50/50 var/ot is as good as tren or better but methylated :(

also great update, i posted an article a while back about research into tren for trt as opposed to test

[olddawg]

In Borat's voice:

Yes, I have a couple of questions,
1. The conversations with your wife on using your new wood, is she going to allow this, and with how many partners? Or, did you mean on her? wow wa wee wa

OD's voice
-wondering if the new compounds initiated a dhea conversion and this level is now what is helping you
-how were the joints once you came off the deca? I know it's not much but did they ache?

[USN HM 350Z]

nice. I am wondering if I should even bother with the Deca I have and just go to low dose Tren E? I want some anabolism, but I am not long working on getting big, but working to improve athletic performance and heal injuries.

Quit talking with the wife and just jump her bones one night!

[burlyman30]

-wondering if the new compounds initiated a dhea conversion and this level is now what is helping you
-how were the joints once you came off the deca? I know it's not much but did they ache?

Joints have been as good or better when I switched from deca to tren. DOMS reduced in both intensity and in length. I can retrain a muscle in 48-72 hours. Tren, historically, is the only anabolic that will speed healing this much for me.

[burlyman30]

nice. I am wondering if I should even bother with the Deca I have and just go to low dose Tren E? I want some anabolism, but I am not long working on getting big, but working to improve athletic performance and heal injuries.

Quit talking with the wife and just jump her bones one night!

Deca has its merits, for sure, and I think I may swap between the two once my injuries are fully healed up. Probably 10 weeks of one followed by 10 weeks of another. For the injuries you mentioned, tren is far superior in taking care of those without a doubt.

It's probably been 15 or more years since I was on tren (cattle pellets), but using trenazone about a year ago reminded me of why I liked it. Injury healing, strength, fast recovery between workouts and muscle retention in low calorie situation.

[longBallLima]

Deca has its merits, for sure, and I think I may swap between the two once my injuries are fully healed up. Probably 10 weeks of one followed by 10 weeks of another. For the injuries you mentioned, tren is far superior in taking care of those without a doubt.

It's probably been 15 or more years since I was on tren (cattle pellets), but using trenazone about a year ago reminded me of why I liked it. Injury healing, strength, fast recovery between workouts and muscle retention in low calorie situation.

holy monkey fuck, cattle pellets. balls the size of basketballs to get a motherfucking tren implant, it must hurt like hell!! lol

[Cobalt]

If deca was all it took to part you with your tren lv, i could have helped you out, lol.

- - - Updated - - -

You actually extract the tren from the pellets and make an injectable oil. Thats how I first did tren.

[longBallLima]

If deca was all it took to part you with your tren lv, i could have helped you out, lol.

- - - Updated - - -

You actually extract the tren from the pellets and make an injectable oil. Thats how I first did tren.

right, some people DMSO it too, right? but i heard of some insane old schoolers injecting the pellets, i thought that was what burly was talking about lol

[DJM]

If deca was all it took to part you with your tren lv, i could have helped you out, lol.

- - - Updated - - -

You actually extract the tren from the pellets and make an injectable oil. Thats how I first did tren.
HG?

[Cobalt]

HG?
What is HG?

[weekend]

Human grade

[burlyman30]

If deca was all it took to part you with your tren lv, i could have helped you out, lol.

- - - Updated - - -

You actually extract the tren from the pellets and make an injectable oil. Thats how I first did tren.

It was turinabol-lv, not tren-lv. I came back to the PH game too late to get or try any of the tren stuff until trenazone came along.

And I did the trans dermal, not injectable with the pellets.

[burlyman30]

right, some people DMSO it too, right? but i heard of some insane old schoolers injecting the pellets, i thought that was what burly was talking about lol

DMSO is what I did, although I got dangerously close to using the cattle injection tool. I would have bled like a stuck pig if I used it... it was about 1/8" in diameter. I had the tip of the needle at my abdomen and broke into a cold panicky sweat. Couldn't go through with it.

[h2s]

DMSO is what I did, although I got dangerously close to using the cattle injection tool. I would have bled like a stuck pig if I used it... it was about 1/8" in diameter. I had the tip of the needle at my abdomen and broke into a cold panicky sweat. Couldn't go through with it.

I get chills just thinking about it.

[Cobalt]

It was turinabol-lv, not tren-lv. I came back to the PH game too late to get or try any of the tren stuff until trenazone came along.

And I did the trans dermal, not injectable with the pellets.

I meant turinabol-lv, dunno why I typed tren...

Everything I used for the conversion was human grade, except the Fina, but it wasn't designed for humans, lol.
It was some goooooood stuff. Felt it fast and never had to use a pre-wo stim when I used it. I would pin it at the gym before hitting the weights. It would always fire me up, I would feel like a god when I used it.

Unless I clipped a blood vessel and it got into my blood stream. Tren cough is no joke.

[burlyman30]

Just one more thing I forgot to mention the other day... with the TRT solo, I was not really noticing fat burning off all that well. Maybe a small percentage better. And at least I wasn't getting fatter. I should clarify that: once I got my aromatization under control I wasn't getting fatter, and maybe just a touch leaner. I have cut calories back to at or below maintenance and some of the initial weight I gained with TRT has dropped.

Adding deca did not seem to affect my results in either direction. However, with tren , I have been recomping. I'm getting leaner and maintaining the same bodyweight. I'm currently 182-185. Around a year ago I was about 10 lbs heavier. At that time I was a little bigger, a little stronger, and a little fatter.

[olddawg]

all with 0 cardio or are you walking?

[burlyman30]

all with 0 cardio or are you walking?

Zero cardio... BUT I'm working 14-16 hour days. Not all physical labor, but some. Today I loaded and unloaded about 3000 lbs of barn wood... large posts, beams, etc for a coffeeshop I'm doing the interior for. Got a good pump doing that. I was doing monkey moves climbing up on the rack of my truck, balancing on beams, etc. Finished the work day about 730pm and hit the gym. Was tired, but the motivation was still there and was stronger this week than I was last week. 6 months ago I could not have done anything approaching this workload, and especially wanting to hit the gym afterwards. Thank you TRT+Tren.

[olddawg]

you sneak 10 min a day hiit a few times a week and you'll light up the fatburning, don't take much, maybe the new wood will do it--if you can last 10 min

[olddawg]

of course I'm thinkin,,,you know when you start back at cardio you have to take it easy and can't go too long at first