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burlyman30
11-06-2012, 12:16 AM
Those who want to learn about TRT in general can read up on some excellent articles that JeliseJ has posted and ask general questions there. This thread will be more specific to my own journey.

I have an appointment coming up soon with an endo... I'll chronicle that journey here in this thread.

EDIT: Thanks to BBG, all of the updates are listed chronologically in the links below. I'll try to keep these updated to make for easier navigating. Thanks again for your loyal following of this critical change in my life.


Burly's TRT journey (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey.html#post563)
Burly's TRT journey - Page 2 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-2.html#post752)
Burly's TRT journey - Page 4 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-4.html#post1435)
Burly's TRT journey - Page 6 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-6.html#post1778)
Burly's TRT journey - Page 8 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-8.html#post2364)
pics of test Burly's TRT journey - Page 10 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-10.html#post2718)
Burly's TRT journey - Page 10 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-10.html#post2725)
Burly's TRT journey - Page 11 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-11.html#post2727)
3 days post inj Burly's TRT journey - Page 13 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-13.html#post2984)
60hr post inj Burly's TRT journey - Page 13 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-13.html#post3175)
No libido change Burly's TRT journey - Page 15 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-15.html#post3279)
pics o' burly Burly's TRT journey - Page 16 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-16.html#post3518)
protocl changes Burly's TRT journey - Page 17 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-17.html#post3613)
Burly's TRT journey - Page 17 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-17.html#post3655)
weigh in Burly's TRT journey - Page 18 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-18.html#post3775)
target pins story Burly's TRT journey - Page 20 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-20.html#post4280)
100mg pin Burly's TRT journey - Page 21 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-21.html#post4302)
Oiler face/libido Burly's TRT journey - Page 24 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-24.html#post4453)
overall update Burly's TRT journey - Page 27 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-27.html#post4891)
Notable items Burly's TRT journey - Page 29 (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-29.html#post5812)
Quick update Burly's TRT journey (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/mens-health-ancillary-medication/83-burlys-trt-journey-8.html#post6457)

Jelisej
11-06-2012, 07:32 AM
I have an appointment coming up soon with an endo... I'll chronicle that journey here in this thread.

Good luck bro'! You have my support, I'll try to help as much as possible.

AresTS
11-06-2012, 08:47 AM
I have an appointment coming up soon with an endo... I'll chronicle that journey here in this thread.

What are your base line bloods to start, B?

- Valdez

h2s
11-06-2012, 09:02 AM
Good luck bro'! You have my support, I'll try to help as much as possible.

Very interested as well. I know you had been holding off, but I think it will be of great benefit.

burlyman30
11-06-2012, 10:59 AM
What are your base line bloods to start, B?

- Valdez

Tested at 67 about a month ago. Yikes. A couple years ago I was at 300, but that was with frequent use of otc test boosters.

A little background: I've been putting off TRT for several years. Libido dropped off significantly about 7 years ago and I did nothing about it until about 2.5 to 3 years ago, when I started back at the gym after an extended (many years) break. Having been a competitive BBer 20 years ago, muscle memory took affect and I made some quick gains, but also noticed that I gained a LOT of fat in the process. This was new to me, because in years past I had always stayed closer to 12-15% even in my "bulking mode". I knew my body had changed dramatically, so I fought against it with boosters, eating better, etc. Even with dietary changes, the bodyfat was/is pretty stubborn. Nothing like it used to be. Heck, when I would hit the treadmill in years past, the fat would just start melting off me. Not the case today.

As far as PHs... I think the last one I used was maybe in February or March. AndroBulk for about 12 weeks. I felt good on it. I made some gains, though I wasn't trying to "bulk" per se. These days I get fat too easily when I go that route (apparently my appetite far exceeds my metabolism). Post cycle, I was able to use boosters to get my test levels back up around the 300 level, but had not used any boosters since then. I have been dealing with chronic bronchitis since I caught a horrible virus in the summer and have not been able to work out because of the difficulty coughing/breathing. Apparently my test level has dropped quite a bit since then. So has my strength and muscle mass.

As for my bronchitis, I am finally getting referred to a pulmonologist to see what can be done.

BBG
11-06-2012, 11:04 AM
Jeeze.. 67?! Do you have baselines from when you were younger?

nate3993
11-06-2012, 11:13 AM
Tested at 67 about a month ago. Yikes. A couple years ago I was at 300, but that was with frequent use of otc test boosters.

A little background: I've been putting off TRT for several years. Libido dropped off significantly about 7 years ago and I did nothing about it until about 2.5 to 3 years ago, when I started back at the gym after an extended (many years) break. Having been a competitive BBer 20 years ago, muscle memory took affect and I made some quick gains, but also noticed that I gained a LOT of fat in the process. This was new to me, because in years past I had always stayed closer to 12-15% even in my "bulking mode". I knew my body had changed dramatically, so I fought against it with boosters, eating better, etc. Even with dietary changes, the bodyfat was/is pretty stubborn. Nothing like it used to be. Heck, when I would hit the treadmill in years past, the fat would just start melting off me. Not the case today.

As far as PHs... I think the last one I used was maybe in February or March. AndroBulk for about 12 weeks. I felt good on it. I made some gains, though I wasn't trying to "bulk" per se. These days I get fat too easily when I go that route (apparently my appetite far exceeds my metabolism). Post cycle, I was able to use boosters to get my test levels back up around the 300 level, but had not used any boosters since then. I have been dealing with chronic bronchitis since I caught a horrible virus in the summer and have not been able to work out because of the difficulty coughing/breathing. Apparently my test level has dropped quite a bit since then. So has my strength and muscle mass.

As for my bronchitis, I am finally getting referred to a pulmonologist to see what can be done.

jesus. don't put it off any longer man. unless u wanted to do what infamy does which is a scoop of toco8 and and some clomid every few days or "as needed" as he would say.

burlyman30
11-06-2012, 11:28 AM
Jeeze.. 67?! Do you have baselines from when you were younger?

I seem to remember something in the 700s back in my youth. I got tested back after some cycling when I was 19. Back when hCG was considered PCT.

burlyman30
11-06-2012, 11:34 AM
jesus. don't put it off any longer man. unless u wanted to do what infamy does which is a scoop of toco8 and and some clomid every few days or "as needed" as he would say.

I'll be discussing options and protocols with my Endo this afternoon. I'll see what "she" has to say and I guess we will go from there.

AresTS
11-06-2012, 12:06 PM
Tested at 67 about a month ago. Yikes. A couple years ago I was at 300, but that was with frequent use of otc test boosters.

A little background: I've been putting off TRT for several years. Libido dropped off significantly about 7 years ago and I did nothing about it until about 2.5 to 3 years ago, when I started back at the gym after an extended (many years) break. Having been a competitive BBer 20 years ago, muscle memory took affect and I made some quick gains, but also noticed that I gained a LOT of fat in the process. This was new to me, because in years past I had always stayed closer to 12-15% even in my "bulking mode". I knew my body had changed dramatically, so I fought against it with boosters, eating better, etc. Even with dietary changes, the bodyfat was/is pretty stubborn. Nothing like it used to be. Heck, when I would hit the treadmill in years past, the fat would just start melting off me. Not the case today.

As far as PHs... I think the last one I used was maybe in February or March. AndroBulk for about 12 weeks. I felt good on it. I made some gains, though I wasn't trying to "bulk" per se. These days I get fat too easily when I go that route (apparently my appetite far exceeds my metabolism). Post cycle, I was able to use boosters to get my test levels back up around the 300 level, but had not used any boosters since then. I have been dealing with chronic bronchitis since I caught a horrible virus in the summer and have not been able to work out because of the difficulty coughing/breathing. Apparently my test level has dropped quite a bit since then. So has my strength and muscle mass.

As for my bronchitis, I am finally getting referred to a pulmonologist to see what can be done.
Do me a favor and keep us updated on both the bronchitis and TRT? I've been in healthcare for a while and stuff like this interests me. If you don't mind me asking a few questions...

Are you a past smoker? Ever been exposed to TB? What was the virus?

I'm sorry to hear that man. Lets get those numbers back up, its admirable that you were still hitting the weight the way you were before the bronchitis hit. I work with a couple of dudes that I convinced to get off (my whole fire station is on TRT) being that they're in their early 20's and they don't want to do anything, they barely even hit the gym anymore, which to me is sad to see that they were that dependent on test injections.

They are both naturally high, they purposely crushed their numbers to get on therapy. They stayed up all night drinking to lower and they still were at 500 but the clinic they go to has 500 in the range for treatment so.... that was that.

Testosterone 'R' Us clinics are everywhere here in AZ due to the high geriatric population.

I'll be discussing options and protocols with my Endo this afternoon. I'll see what "she" has to say and I guess we will go from there.

Keep us posted big dog. Good luck with the appointment

- Valdez

burlyman30
11-06-2012, 12:24 PM
Do me a favor and keep us updated on both the bronchitis and TRT? I've been in healthcare for a while and stuff like this interests me. If you don't mind me asking a few questions...

Are you a past smoker? Ever been exposed to TB? What was the virus?


- Valdez

The virus was never identified. It was suspected that it may have been a fungal infection caught in caves, called histoplasmosis because I had been in some caves just a couple days previous and another friend of mine caught a horrible virus after going into the same cave just days later than me. Test turned out to be negative, however, many of the symptoms were dead-on for that diagnosis. Was tested for whooping cough. Negative. I had a bout with bronchitis 2 years ago that took 10 weeks to get rid of. This happened after a Beastdrol cycle. Yeah, yeah, I should have known better, right? lol Lesson learned, though. But that was my first ever bronchitis episode. This is my second, and I am about 4 months into it now.

Good question about the smoking-- I never smoked. However, every time I go into the doc's office, they always ask again if I'm a smoker. lol. It's a dry hack in the upper chest. Some days I barely cough, but other days, I'm coughing all day. Most days, I'm coughing until about mid-day and then it improves at night.

AresTS
11-06-2012, 12:32 PM
Hmmmmm....

Have they (I'm sure they have) thought about albuterol? Nebulizer treatments? Have they commented on the sounds your lungs are making (stridor, rales etc...)? Is the cough productive? I'm not trying to be your Dr man lol so don't think that just curious..

- Valdez

burlyman30
11-06-2012, 12:40 PM
Hmmmmm....

Have they (I'm sure they have) thought about albuterol? Nebulizer treatments? Have they commented on the sounds your lungs are making (stridor, rales etc...)? Is the cough productive? I'm not trying to be your Dr man lol so don't think that just curious..

- Valdez

I've used Albuterol and it doesn't help, except when I cough so hard that I start wheezing. Then it helps. I'm a on/off user of Albuterol for seasonal allergies, as the tree pollen gets me a little asthmatic in the spring. Nebulizer, no. Cough isn't productive. It's dry, mostly, with small amounts of flem only rarely. Doc always says my lungs sound good. Which is odd. Xrays, according to doc, look good. No worries on the questions. lol. I have, in years past, chemically burned my lungs with bleach and lye and other solvents. However, the Xrays showed no scarring according to the doc.

AresTS
11-06-2012, 12:51 PM
I've used Albuterol and it doesn't help, except when I cough so hard that I start wheezing. Then it helps. I'm a on/off user of Albuterol for seasonal allergies, as the tree pollen gets me a little asthmatic in the spring. Nebulizer, no. Cough isn't productive. It's dry, mostly, with small amounts of flem only rarely. Doc always says my lungs sound good. Which is odd. Xrays, according to doc, look good. No worries on the questions. lol. I have, in years past, chemically burned my lungs with bleach and lye and other solvents. However, the Xrays showed no scarring according to the doc.

So you're not presenting with any findings to support your symptoms... Where is house when you need him, right? I bet you have a parasite lodged in your brain which is responsible lmao!

- Valdez

burlyman30
11-06-2012, 12:55 PM
So you're not presenting with any findings to support your symptoms... Where is house when you need him, right? I bet you have a parasite lodged in your brain which is responsible lmao!

- Valdez

The good: No signs of my dying over this. The bad: It reduces my ability to work, workout, feel good, and enjoy life.

burlyman30
11-07-2012, 12:43 AM
As for my Endo appt today, she was seriously concerned. She checked my nutbag and said it was too small and too soft. I could have just stayed home and heard those insults. lol.

She was disturbed by my test results taken over the last month and insisted on retesting. So tomorrow morning I go in and get three consecutive blood draws, with a break in between each. She wants to see if the previous tests were just catching me on the low side of the variance. I'm guessing all 3 will come back quite low, regardless of any apparent variance. She also is getting approval to send me for an MRI of my pituitary gland, to make sure there is no tumor growing on it.

My RBC count is slightly elevated. She was concerned about this, knowing that exogenous testosterone will further raise this level. I have my appointment on Thursday with the Hemotologist and she wanted to make sure he felt ok about future TRT treatment, so I will have him communicate his findings with her.

Jelisej
11-07-2012, 07:33 AM
Elevated RBC is not good. It would be good if you post all your bloodworks etc. I'm also wondering what kind of TRT they have in mind?
And wheter you are primary or secondary?

h2s
11-07-2012, 08:36 AM
I am sure it sucks going through all of this, but hopefully it is a way to the light at the end of the tunnel.

Cobalt
11-07-2012, 08:46 AM
She checked my nutbag and said it was too small and too soft. I could have just stayed home and heard those insults.

Woooo, just finished a good hard laugh. I always look forward to your posts. Great quoting material too.

But seriously, hope things turn around for you.

AresTS
11-07-2012, 08:48 AM
As for my Endo appt today, she was seriously concerned. She checked my nutbag and said it was too small and too soft. I could have just stayed home and heard those insults. lol.

She was disturbed by my test results taken over the last month and insisted on retesting. So tomorrow morning I go in and get three consecutive blood draws, with a break in between each. She wants to see if the previous tests were just catching me on the low side of the variance. I'm guessing all 3 will come back quite low, regardless of any apparent variance. She also is getting approval to send me for an MRI of my pituitary gland, to make sure there is no tumor growing on it.

My RBC count is slightly elevated. She was concerned about this, knowing that exogenous testosterone will further raise this level. I have my appointment on Thursday with the Hemotologist and she wanted to make sure he felt ok about future TRT treatment, so I will have him communicate his findings with her.

That's great to hear that she's ordered an MRI of your pituitary. Too often they don't look into the actual problem and just throw some rx/test at the problem instead of getting at the source.

- Valdez

AresTS
11-07-2012, 08:53 AM
Elevated RBC is not good. It would be good if you post all your bloodworks etc. I'm also wondering what kind of TRT they have in mind?
And wheter you are primary or secondary?

I'm assuming injections? Due to the worry of RBC already being slightly elevated.

- Valdez

burlyman30
11-07-2012, 09:53 AM
I am sure it sucks going through all of this, but hopefully it is a way to the light at the end of the tunnel.

Thanks bud.

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Woooo, just finished a good hard laugh. I always look forward to your posts. Great quoting material too.

But seriously, hope things turn around for you.

Glad you enjoyed my attempt at humor. :D And thanks for the kind words.

burlyman30
11-07-2012, 09:55 AM
That's great to hear that she's ordered an MRI of your pituitary. Too often they don't look into the actual problem and just throw some rx/test at the problem instead of getting at the source.

- Valdez

I was really impressed with the amount of time she took with me, asked a lot of questions, and really tried to get to the core issue, while simultaneously "doing no harm" regarding the RBC.

And yes, injections are most likely as they are the cheapest on the wallet, though I do have good insurance.

burlyman30
11-07-2012, 09:58 AM
Elevated RBC is not good. It would be good if you post all your bloodworks etc. I'm also wondering what kind of TRT they have in mind?
And wheter you are primary or secondary?

I'll try to scan in my bw by later tonight. Assuming injections, and secondary.

longBallLima
11-07-2012, 10:48 AM
As for my Endo appt today, she was seriously concerned. She checked my nutbag and said it was too small and too soft. I could have just stayed home and heard those insults. lol.


maybe insensitive, but i got a good laugh out of this lol

following with great interest, hoping for great, healthy results, man.

markam
11-07-2012, 12:22 PM
Just to wish you good luck with all this.

burlyman30
11-07-2012, 02:40 PM
Just to wish you good luck with all this.

Thanks bud!

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maybe insensitive, but i got a good laugh out of this lol

following with great interest, hoping for great, healthy results, man.

Not insensitive at all, at least in my book anyway. Much of my commentary is for entertainment value. lol.

Jelisej
11-07-2012, 05:44 PM
I'll try to scan in my bw by later tonight. Assuming injections, and secondary.

So it seems that problem may be with pituary... As a secondary- you would be better of to start with HCG only (IMO) and then add testosterone as required. HCG is must have (IMO) as it will bring some other homones along.

O_RYAN_007
11-07-2012, 06:10 PM
I'm in for your journey, and I hope all turns out well my friend.

therealest77
11-07-2012, 06:31 PM
I was really impressed with the amount of time she took with me, asked a lot of questions, and really tried to get to the core issue, while simultaneously "doing no harm" regarding the RBC.

And yes, injections are most likely as they are the cheapest on the wallet, though I do have good insurance.

She probably took allot of time with you because she liked touching your balls. (I'm kidding)..I hope all goes well (I'm sure it will)

Rulk
11-07-2012, 06:51 PM
I'm following with close interest in this subject. Good luck Burly.

burlyman30
11-07-2012, 10:23 PM
She probably took allot of time with you because she liked touching your balls. (I'm kidding)..I hope all goes well (I'm sure it will)

You have no idea how much pleasure I took in telling my wife about another woman handling my package. I started telling her the doctor seemed romantically interested in me, etc. I've been married 20 years, and I just love to stir the pot and get a reaction out of her. It never gets old for me. lol.

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I'm following with close interest in this subject. Good luck Burly.

Glad to have you along for the ride, bud!

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So it seems that problem may be with pituary... As a secondary- you would be better of to start with HCG only (IMO) and then add testosterone as required. HCG is must have (IMO) as it will bring some other homones along.

I just got my approval for an MRI of the pituitary. I'll be calling to schedule that asap.

burlyman30
11-07-2012, 10:24 PM
I'm in for your journey, and I hope all turns out well my friend.

Thanks for following, Ryan!

naeydrin
11-08-2012, 11:26 AM
Always enjoy your threads so I am in for this ride, I pray all turns out well.

burlyman30
11-08-2012, 03:14 PM
Always enjoy your threads so I am in for this ride, I pray all turns out well.

Glad to have you along for the ride.

burlyman30
11-08-2012, 03:17 PM
I got blood drawn 3 separate times this morning, so they could check for any variance in testosterone levels.

This afternoon, I meet with the hematologist about my elevated RBC.

Tomorrow they perform an MRI to check if there is a tumor on my pituitary gland.

AresTS
11-08-2012, 05:35 PM
Keep us posted bud...

- Valdez

BBG
11-09-2012, 09:40 AM
Keep us posted bud...

- Valdez

x2. It would be great to see how high you can get your test levels with some therapy

burlyman30
11-10-2012, 10:03 AM
Ok... so the last couple of days, I have been running around between specialists and testing facilities.

They have taken a fair amount of blood, but not so much that I am light headed. Much of this was for the Endo to run her own set of tests after being unsatisfied with the previous tests I've done over the last month.

I had an MRI done yesterday, to make sure there was not a tumor on my pituitary. Dang, that thing gave me a freakin' headache. I asked the tech about that. He says "No, it doesn't cause headaches. But a lot of people complain of headaches when they get done." LOL. Idiot.

I had a kidney ultrasound done for the hematologist. Apparently, the kidney gives off a signal to the bone marrow to produce more RBCs and he wanted to make sure there wasn't anything abnormal going on there. I have 2 more blood tests coming up for this specialist, before he clears me. When he looked at my existing lab results, he was not overly concerned, but wanted to cover his bases. My levels were only a point over range, but my platelet levels were right in the middle and my WBCs were totally normal. He says this may just be baseline for me.

Sorry, nothing major to report at this time... just figured I would clue you in on my journey, and all that it entails for me. I'm thankful for some docs who really appear to know their field well and seem genuinely concerned about me as a patient instead of a number. Also thankful for good insurance, as all this must be costing a pretty penny. My cost is very low.

USN HM 350Z
11-10-2012, 11:03 AM
glad to see they are taking care of you. I have been on TRT for the better part of 6 years now I guess. My lowest was 150's. the positive side of things is you can run cycles for longer now and not worry about shut down lol

burlyman30
11-10-2012, 11:09 AM
glad to see they are taking care of you. I have been on TRT for the better part of 6 years now I guess. My lowest was 150's. the positive side of things is you can run cycles for longer now and not worry about shut down lol

I've not done injectable testosterone for over 20 years... but once everything is sorted out on the medical side, this could be the gateway to cycling TRT in a cruise/blast fashion... :rolleyes:

Being on TRT, do you monitor your own RBC levels and give blood as necessary? And what test level/dosage do you maintain?

AresTS
11-10-2012, 11:19 AM
I've not done injectable testosterone for over 20 years... but once everything is sorted out on the medical side, this could be the gateway to cycling TRT in a cruise/blast fashion... :rolleyes:

Being on TRT, do you monitor your own RBC levels and give blood as necessary? And what test level/dosage do you maintain?

Usually as far as the RBC goes you'll do a blood draw every so often and they'll check all your levels. Depending on the numbers you may have to do some blood letting.

As far as levels, that's all based on whoever prescribes it to you. The anti aging clinics tend to be on the higher side from what I've seen 700-1200. I've seen docs that are happy with just 500.

- Valdez

USN HM 350Z
11-10-2012, 11:34 AM
I do 200mg/week and usually range in the high 800's. I usually do a full blood draw every 3 months when not deployed. I do my TRT through my urologist, but I am going to get my Endo involved in it when I get back and try to add in HCG to the mix. I may try a restart at some point also with clomid for 3 months and see where I end up. I like being able to cruise and blast though. Makes things easy.

BBG
11-10-2012, 12:38 PM
I do 200mg/week and usually range in the high 800's. I usually do a full blood draw every 3 months when not deployed. I do my TRT through my urologist, but I am going to get my Endo involved in it when I get back and try to add in HCG to the mix. I may try a restart at some point also with clomid for 3 months and see where I end up. I like being able to cruise and blast though. Makes things easy.

Surprised it's not higher than 800. Guess it's pretty individual?

USN HM 350Z
11-10-2012, 12:43 PM
also on the day it is drawn I am sure. Before deployment I was doing my shots on Sundays and blood draws were done whenever during the week, usually Fridays since I had to leave work early and that was the best day to do it. Now since I have been deployed I am started sun/wed shots and I am sure they are elevated every day of the week. I feel much better also.

h2s
11-10-2012, 12:55 PM
Just had a draw today...bit fucked up. For those of you that dont know, i am prescribed to adderall (consider it bb poison, lol). Well like any strong stimulant one of the sides is extreme vasoconstriction. Blood flowed so slow during the draw that the nurse said she was mad at my vein for not working.

burlyman30
11-10-2012, 11:09 PM
Surprised it's not higher than 800. Guess it's pretty individual?

Sounds like a high dose to achieve those levels, but it will be interesting to see if that changes on your next draw with the twice weekly dosing.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Eden
11-11-2012, 12:00 AM
Just had a draw today...bit fucked up. For those of you that dont know, i am prescribed to adderall (consider it bb poison, lol). Well like any strong stimulant one of the sides is extreme vasoconstriction. Blood flowed so slow during the draw that the nurse said she was mad at my vein for not working.

That's no good, there anything they can do to loosen up your blood vessels?

Sperwer
11-11-2012, 04:22 AM
That's no good, there anything they can do to loosen up your blood vessels?

I take an Herbalife product called Night Works, which has rather amazing vasodilation effects. It was developed by the Nobel Prize winner whose work with nitric oxide laid the basis for the viagra revolution and, while it contains nitric oxide in its proprietary formula, it has none of the cazy stimulative effects of the bodybuilding world's NO boosters. When my BP spiked on tren, this stuff brought it right back down: 140/90 - 110/63. And, yeah, in my early 60s, i don't just having morning wood but morning TIMBER. It's spendy, but worth it in my experience.

- - - Updated - - -

In late for this, but in. I've been on trt for about 5 years now, and it's made a huge difference in my life. Hoping it does the same for you mate.

Cobalt
11-11-2012, 06:25 AM
Just had a draw today...bit fucked up. For those of you that dont know, i am prescribed to adderall (consider it bb poison, lol). Well like any strong stimulant one of the sides is extreme vasoconstriction. Blood flowed so slow during the draw that the nurse said she was mad at my vein for not working.

Wow, I had no idea that Adderall was a vasoconstrictor. I can easily get my doctor to prescribe me some, (I used to be on it myself) and take a low dose for the stim effects. Guess that idea is out the window.

burlyman30
11-11-2012, 03:13 PM
In late for this, but in. I've been on trt for about 5 years now, and it's made a huge difference in my life. Hoping it does the same for you mate.

Glad to have you in here. Thanks, Sperwer.

h2s
11-11-2012, 03:29 PM
That's no good, there anything they can do to loosen up your blood vessels?

It is really only at that level within close proximity of dosing it. I also take a relatively high dose which doesn't help. If it caused an issue for a longer period of time, I would be more concerned, but I just take it as a side of a medication I get alot more benefit from. Anything you take will always have the intended consequence and unintended consequences, an appropriate statement in a thread about TRT. Luckily it sounds like Burly has a good endo, which from everything I read, makes a world of a difference.


I take an Herbalife product called Night Works, which has rather amazing vasodilation effects. It was developed by the Nobel Prize winner whose work with nitric oxide laid the basis for the viagra revolution and, while it contains nitric oxide in its proprietary formula, it has none of the cazy stimulative effects of the bodybuilding world's NO boosters. When my BP spiked on tren, this stuff brought it right back down: 140/90 - 110/63. And, yeah, in my early 60s, i don't just having morning wood but morning TIMBER. It's spendy, but worth it in my experience.

Interesting, I will look into this.


Wow, I had no idea that Adderall was a vasoconstrictor. I can easily get my doctor to prescribe me some, (I used to be on it myself) and take a low dose for the stim effects. Guess that idea is out the window.

Every stimulant is. Adderall is just a really strong stimulant. It actually would have a perfect analogy to Infamy's comments on the lipid effects of Letro. Any AI will alter lipids, Letro is just a really effective AI, and thus all effects are more pronounced. Same thing to adderall and stimulants.

h2s
11-11-2012, 03:31 PM
Interesting, I will look into this.

Holy hell you were not kidding about cost. I will have to look into what ingredients it uses.

Edit:

115

If you take this long term, I would recommend just buying the ingredients. There is some major price gauging going on selling that for nearly $80.

burlyman30
11-11-2012, 04:15 PM
Holy hell you were not kidding about cost. I will have to look into what ingredients it uses.

Edit:

115

If you take this long term, I would recommend just buying the ingredients. There is some major price gauging going on selling that for nearly $80.
Since Arginines absorption and conversion to Nitric Oxide is terribly poor, I'd recommend bulk citrulline for pennies on the dollar in comparison. Just my initial 2 cents on the matter.


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Sperwer
11-11-2012, 07:00 PM
Holy hell you were not kidding about cost. I will have to look into what ingredients it uses.

Edit:

115

If you take this long term, I would recommend just buying the ingredients. There is some major price gauging going on selling that for nearly $80.

Yeah, i've tried to replicate the results by just gobbling NO and citrulline et al, but the effect is not the same. You can get a 20% discount i think by signing on as a distributor and then just buying for yourself without actually otherwise bring a distributor. I get it at company cost through a friend.

iron
11-11-2012, 11:09 PM
hey bman so whats all this gonna cost? was what is the price range for your weekly or bi weekly injections if you know? and btw its good to see all you guys again

burlyman30
11-12-2012, 12:16 AM
hey bman so whats all this gonna cost? was what is the price range for your weekly or bi weekly injections if you know? and btw its good to see all you guys again

Well, thanks to my wife's employment with a public agency, I am covered by pretty good insurance. Mostly $5 copayments after I payed the first $500 for the year. I'm not sure if there will be any unpaid portions for certain tests like the MRI, but those should be relatively low in comparison to full price.

I haven't even gotten to the part where a script is written, but vials of test are cheap and I'll be self administering once it gets to that point.

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Rulk
11-12-2012, 03:47 PM
Nice copay. Mine is 15$. I want to start a family, but i'm going to discuss that matter when I finally start looking into TRT more thoroughly. Need to keep my swimmers in healthy abundance.

burlyman30
11-12-2012, 04:08 PM
Nice copay. Mine is 15$. I want to start a family, but i'm going to discuss that matter when I finally start looking into TRT more thoroughly. Need to keep my swimmers in healthy abundance.

Have you had your levels tested to know if you are low?

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burlyman30
11-12-2012, 04:18 PM
Another blood draw today... just received insurance approval today for two tests related to my RBC levels so I worked that into my schedule. I am to wait a few days and the hematologist is supposed to call me and my endo with the results of those tests and my kidney ultrasound.

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Rulk
11-12-2012, 04:39 PM
Have you had your levels tested to know if you are low?

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I had test done back in June and everything looked great. Test ( free and total ) came back as acceptable. I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but I wanted a TRT physician's opinion- instead of my regular provider.

h2s
11-12-2012, 04:53 PM
I had test done back in June and everything looked great. Test ( free and total ) came back as acceptable. I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but I wanted a TRT physician's opinion- instead of my regular provider.

If you had the numbers we can probably save you the trip. Unless you are looking to purposely go on TRT, which at your age I would advise against, in range numbers are adequate as long as you feel well.

burlyman30
11-12-2012, 05:00 PM
I had test done back in June and everything looked great. Test ( free and total ) came back as acceptable. I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but I wanted a TRT physician's opinion- instead of my regular provider.

TRT clinics will often prescribe testosterone to you you even if your numbers are in the 500s, which I can't say I think is a good idea, since the body is still producing it's own testosterone quite well already at that point. The only thing I could see doing at those levels would be cycling clomid on/off to boost your own body's production. I'm not convinced that even that is needed while in the 500s, but am open to changing my mind on that for those who have been there and done that if they tell me differently.

Eden
11-12-2012, 05:22 PM
I know around my parts they won't give you TRT even if you're down at 250. They haven't a clue how to administer test here, I heard they put a dude on Test P 100mg bi-weekly, nothing else.

burlyman30
11-12-2012, 05:27 PM
I know around my parts they won't give you TRT even if you're down at 250. They haven't a clue how to administer test here, I heard they put a dude on Test P 100mg bi-weekly, nothing else.

Oklahoma. Say no more. ;)

AresTS
11-12-2012, 05:32 PM
I know around my parts they won't give you TRT even if you're down at 250. They haven't a clue how to administer test here, I heard they put a dude on Test P 100mg bi-weekly, nothing else.

No anti aging clinics?

- Valdez

Rulk
11-12-2012, 05:32 PM
If you had the numbers we can probably save you the trip. Unless you are looking to purposely go on TRT, which at your age I would advise against, in range numbers are adequate as long as you feel well.

I'll have to find it later, i'm at work. I'm not ready for TRT yet... but I do want to know more about it. I'll be 36 in January but as the more weight I drop, the better I feel. Plus me and the lady are trying to start a family- gotta get that done first.

Eden
11-12-2012, 05:33 PM
Yea I live in one of the largest cities, and most the time it's not that bad down here, way over exaggerated on the redneck part, but sometimes I just wonder WTF. I mean we have OU, and OSU's medical schools.

- - - Updated - - -


No anti aging clinics?

- Valdez

We do, but I was talking more about if you go to your regular doctor.

AresTS
11-12-2012, 06:06 PM
Anti aging clinics will gladly give you an rx for test at 250 man

- Valdez

Jelisej
11-12-2012, 06:53 PM
If you had the numbers we can probably save you the trip. Unless you are looking to purposely go on TRT, which at your age I would advise against, in range numbers are adequate as long as you feel well.

X2

Jelisej
11-12-2012, 07:02 PM
TRT clinics will often prescribe testosterone to you you even if your numbers are in the 500s, which I can't say I think is a good idea, since the body is still producing it's own testosterone quite well already at that point. The only thing I could see doing at those levels would be cycling clomid on/off to boost your own body's production. I'm not convinced that even that is needed while in the 500s, but am open to changing my mind on that for those who have been there and done that if they tell me differently.

Depending from symptoms, 500 should be treated somehow (IMO), usualy natural ways can increase test enough, if not then its HCG time. Clomid as TRT is not an option (IMO) as usualy people get numbers but nothing else, and estrogen on clomid is all over the place. I mean what does it mean if I have a piece of paper on which says TT 900 ng/dl if I feel like I have 300 ng/dl?
Also (IMO) bioavailable and free test are more interesting than TT, and most of endos accept this- Dr Romeo Marianco is one of the exceptions, but his patients have TT in pretty high numbers, so I guess they still have some decent free test.

burlyman30
11-12-2012, 08:49 PM
Depending from symptoms, 500 should be treated somehow (IMO), usualy natural ways can increase test enough, if not then its HCG time. Clomid as TRT is not an option (IMO) as usualy people get numbers but nothing else, and estrogen on clomid is all over the place. I mean what does it mean if I have a piece of paper on which says TT 900 ng/dl if I feel like I have 300 ng/dl?
Also (IMO) bioavailable and free test are more interesting than TT, and most of endos accept this- Dr Romeo Marianco is one of the exceptions, but his patients have TT in pretty high numbers, so I guess they still have some decent free test.

Good feedback on the clomid. I remember you've said this before. Are you aware of prescribed TRT protocol that included only HCG? I'm thinking it would require an AI at a minimum.

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Jelisej
11-13-2012, 06:15 AM
Good feedback on the clomid. I remember you've said this before. Are you aware of prescribed TRT protocol that included only HCG? I'm thinking it would require an AI at a minimum.

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Yes, there is so called HCG momotherapy- sometimes is used as a "restart protocol", but often is used as TRT for secondary guys; most of the top endos nowdays are pushing HCG first, but for some reasons ordinary docs are often very sceptical of HCG.
People do get nice numbers with HCG only, even top of the range- but it can be very difficult to find right dosage, and again it same thing can happen again- you may get numbers but not the "feel".
Best option (IMO) is to start with HCG and then take it from there, there will be lot of "tweaking" till you get into right place.
As for AI, it really depends from person to person- both HCG and "straight" testosterone shots aromatise, testosterone gel on other hand converts a lot to DHT, but people say its inconvinient and it seems that is more difficult to maintain stable levels.

AresTS
11-13-2012, 06:30 AM
I told my buddy to ask his endo about hcg because clomid is making him feel like death and she said "that's a really good idea, I'll have to look into that..." Its crazy to me how far behind some are. This is your specialty lady, lets get it going!!!

- Valdez

dirkwright
11-13-2012, 09:03 AM
Yes, there is so called HCG momotherapy- sometimes is used as a "restart protocol", but often is used as TRT for secondary guys; most of the top endos nowdays are pushing HCG first, but for some reasons ordinary docs are often very sceptical of HCG.
People do get nice numbers with HCG only, even top of the range- but it can be very difficult to find right dosage, and again it same thing can happen again- you may get numbers but not the "feel".
Best option (IMO) is to start with HCG and then take it from there, there will be lot of "tweaking" till you get into right place.
As for AI, it really depends from person to person- both HCG and "straight" testosterone shots aromatise, testosterone gel on other hand converts a lot to DHT, but people say its inconvinient and it seems that is more difficult to maintain stable levels.

I made the mistake of combining HCG and iodine supplements. I wound up with a very irritated thyroid gland. So, forewarned is fore armed. HCG stimulates the thyroid apparently.

My suggestion would be to make sure that an aromatase inhibitor is used when ever we try to boost test, but you probably know that already.

h2s
11-13-2012, 09:05 AM
I made the mistake of combining HCG and iodine supplements. I wound up with a very irritated thyroid gland. So, forewarned is fore armed. HCG stimulates the thyroid apparently.

My suggestion would be to make sure that an aromatase inhibitor is used when ever we try to boost test, but you probably know that already.

Human chorionic gonadotropin stimula... [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1994] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8045981)

dirkwright
11-13-2012, 11:03 AM
Human chorionic gonadotropin stimula... [J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1994] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8045981)

Thanks. I don't understand all of the article, but my endo doc said it was my fault for combining Hcg and Iodoral. I had to take beta blockers for about 4 months and it took me a total of about 6 months to recover. I'm still leery of taking Iodoral now.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience.

Jelisej
11-13-2012, 05:06 PM
Thanks. I don't understand all of the article, but my endo doc said it was my fault for combining Hcg and Iodoral. I had to take beta blockers for about 4 months and it took me a total of about 6 months to recover. I'm still leery of taking Iodoral now.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience.

Thanks for sharing info, bro'. More we share- more we learn.

burlyman30
11-13-2012, 05:35 PM
Thanks for sharing info, bro'. More we share- more we learn.

x2

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burlyman30
11-17-2012, 12:47 AM
Quick, but un-eventful update.

Just got referred to a pulmonologist for this blasted cough I have had since August. It's about time. This brings the count up to 3 specialists now.

However, I'm pretty sure the Hematologist will be done with me after next week, barring any surprises on the tests he ran. I am supposed to hear from him on Monday. Overall, (prior to tests being ran) he was not concerned with my RBC level, as the elevation was very slight and everything else looked good (WBC, platelets, etc).

Tuesday is my next appointment with the Endo. Provided we have good news from the Hematologist, I expect the Endo to discuss and maybe even begin a treatment protocol with me.

I'll update more on Tuesday.

AresTS
11-17-2012, 04:27 PM
Quick, but un-eventful update.

Just got referred to a pulmonologist for this blasted cough I have had since August. It's about time. This brings the count up to 3 specialists now.

However, I'm pretty sure the Hematologist will be done with me after next week, barring any surprises on the tests he ran. I am supposed to hear from him on Monday. Overall, (prior to tests being ran) he was not concerned with my RBC level, as the elevation was very slight and everything else looked good (WBC, platelets, etc).

Tuesday is my next appointment with the Endo. Provided we have good news from the Hematologist, I expect the Endo to discuss and maybe even begin a treatment protocol with me.

I'll update more on Tuesday.

That's all awesome news man and I'm glad to hear it! Rx T here you come!!

- Valdez

burlyman30
11-18-2012, 01:34 AM
That's all awesome news man and I'm glad to hear it! Rx T here you come!!

- Valdez

You are more excited about it than I am. lol. I have fought against TRT for years, using T boosters that had modest results.

People might ask "Why wouldn't you want to go on TRT?"

My answer is that once I go on, it is a lifelong commitment for me. Frankly, sticking myself every week for the next 40 years isn't really all that exciting to me. I don't mind it, but it does become an inconvenience after a while. I stuck myself plenty when I was young and the "excitement" of it wore off 20 years ago. If I do it again, it is for the sake of just taking my prescription so I can hopefully feel better and return back some of the vitality I had a few years ago.

One advantage, of course, is no PCT. If I cycle anything else alongside the TRT then that is one detail I do not have to be concerned with. Most of the regulars from PP's board know that I'm pretty conservative when it comes to usage anyway and I'd rather have a good natural test level and have to do PCT.

Anyway, that's my take on things.

Sperwer
11-18-2012, 06:52 AM
Of course, as you know, you don't necessarily have to stick yourself. In my jurisdiction, injectable T is not legally available, even with a scrip, so my TRT has been built around topicals. I guess I've tried 3 now, the latest being Bayer's Testogel, which is the best of the lot. It's a gel with what smells like a high alcohol content, and it dries very quickly - much, much faster than PP's most recent gels. I do 2 packets a day, one in the am, 1 in the pm - which is 100mg of T/day. No idea what the net absorption amount is, but my measured T level as of most recent bloodwork - 2 months ago - was 800. Not too shabby considering I tested at about 10 before going on TRT. It's made a huge difference, and not just or most importantly, in the gym, although the overall sense of vitality and positive mental energy of course has contributed there a lot too.

dirkwright
11-18-2012, 08:45 AM
I use Testogel when I am in Sweden. (my wife is from there) Swedish law is more strict than US law when it comes to steroids. They only allow a 14 day supply to brought in for personal use. So, if I'm there longer than that, I need a script from a Swedish doc, and the pharmacy only carries Testogel. Here's the dig: it's $75 for one month supply, full cost. My cost here in the US for Testim for one month is $164!!!. We are getting ripped off big time here in the US.

Here's a tip: shave your scrotum and penis. Put about 1/3 to 1/2 of the packet on there. Put the rest on your chest. The effect is tremendous. This is what I have done for 4 years now, and I'm still alive, though I have much more body hair now. haha. One down side is my cholesterol is highish, but good diet and lots of exercise help keep it below 200.

I also take Formadrol Extreme (1 cap per day) and nettle root extract to control E2. My GP is not very thorough about hormone testing. He just requires a total T once per 6 months, plus a complete blood workup also. So, from my experience, I know that E2 goes way up when on TRT, so I take precautions against that. I miss Novadex XT. That was good stuff.

So, that's some more of my personal experience, for what it's worth. I'm 53, I'm not huge or powerful, but sure do look a lot better than all of the other men my age. I'm 6'3", 200 lbs, size 36 pants waist (sometimes size 34).

good luck with your journey.

burlyman30
11-18-2012, 08:46 AM
Of course, as you know, you don't necessarily have to stick yourself. In my jurisdiction, injectable T is not legally available, even with a scrip, so my TRT has been built around topicals. I guess I've tried 3 now, the latest being Bayer's Testogel, which is the best of the lot. It's a gel with what smells like a high alcohol content, and it dries very quickly - much, much faster than PP's most recent gels. I do 2 packets a day, one in the am, 1 in the pm - which is 100mg of T/day. No idea what the net absorption amount is, but my measured T level as of most recent bloodwork - 2 months ago - was 800. Not too shabby considering I tested at about 10 before going on TRT. It's made a huge difference, and not just or most importantly, in the gym, although the overall sense of vitality and positive mental energy of course has contributed there a lot too.

Good feedback, Sperwer. A friend of mine is also doing the daily topical. Without his insurance he said it would cost him about $400 a month, but I think he pays about $120. He started with injections but had some kind of allergic reaction to the injectable and so he switched.

I don't "mind" injecting. I'm just not excited about it like some guys get. This isn't a moment for me of "oh, cool, I get to be on testosterone all the time". It has come down to a necessity. To be honest, though injecting weekly for the rest of my life will be a small inconvenience, I would rather do that instead of using a daily topical. The less it interferes with my life, the better it is for me. There are some days that I know I just wouldn't get around to applying a daily topical, which would interfere with my results.

Interesting about 100mg/day topical results in an 800 ng/dl test level. I would say that for most people, injectable test of 125mg/day would probably get them to that level. This indicates that less than 1/3 of that topical testosterone is absorbing. Hard to say, though, since your starting levels were so low. It may take significantly more for your body to get up to those levels.

In regards to your results... sounds like much of what I am looking for and have been missing. My mental acuity and memory has suffered, along with my overall vitality/well-being. Better recovery in the gym would be nice, too. Glad to hear things have gone well for you.

Do you use anything else along with your TRT protocol?

burlyman30
11-18-2012, 09:03 AM
I use Testogel when I am in Sweden. (my wife is from there) Swedish law is more strict than US law when it comes to steroids. They only allow a 14 day supply to brought in for personal use. So, if I'm there longer than that, I need a script from a Swedish doc, and the pharmacy only carries Testogel. Here's the dig: it's $75 for one month supply, full cost. My cost here in the US for Testim for one month is $164!!!. We are getting ripped off big time here in the US.

Here's a tip: shave your scrotum and penis. Put about 1/3 to 1/2 of the packet on there. Put the rest on your chest. The effect is tremendous. This is what I have done for 4 years now, and I'm still alive, though I have much more body hair now. haha. One down side is my cholesterol is highish, but good diet and lots of exercise help keep it below 200.

I also take Formadrol Extreme (1 cap per day) and nettle root extract to control E2. My GP is not very thorough about hormone testing. He just requires a total T once per 6 months, plus a complete blood workup also. So, from my experience, I know that E2 goes way up when on TRT, so I take precautions against that. I miss Novadex XT. That was good stuff.

So, that's some more of my personal experience, for what it's worth. I'm 53, I'm not huge or powerful, but sure do look a lot better than all of the other men my age. I'm 6'3", 200 lbs, size 36 pants waist (sometimes size 34).

good luck with your journey.

Good input, dirk.

Sounds like things have gone well for you. Glad to hear that. I would agree about your sentiments of Novadex XT. ATD (the main ingredient) is an effective AI. I've used it many times. I wish it was still legal. :(

AresTS
11-18-2012, 10:42 AM
You are more excited about it than I am. lol. I have fought against TRT for years, using T boosters that had modest results.

People might ask "Why wouldn't you want to go on TRT?"

My answer is that once I go on, it is a lifelong commitment for me. Frankly, sticking myself every week for the next 40 years isn't really all that exciting to me. I don't mind it, but it does become an inconvenience after a while. I stuck myself plenty when I was young and the "excitement" of it wore off 20 years ago. If I do it again, it is for the sake of just taking my prescription so I can hopefully feel better and return back some of the vitality I had a few years ago.

One advantage, of course, is no PCT. If I cycle anything else alongside the TRT then that is one detail I do not have to be concerned with. Most of the regulars from PP's board know that I'm pretty conservative when it comes to usage anyway and I'd rather have a good natural test level and have to do PCT.

Anyway, that's my take on things.

Here is the reason for my excitement - your likely going to feel MUCH better than the struggle you've currently been dealing with trying to boost natural levels. You're going to save yourself some trial and error time because you KNOW testosterone works!

As far as injections go don't be too sure that you're absolutely going to have to do that for the rest of your life. Compounding pharmacies have a whole plethora of different delivery methods that work just as well as injections these days. I've seen a few different new methods that have been giving people great success dude.

Pellets - you only have to deal with that every 6 months. They do test pellets, and estrogen control pellets.

Lotion - not t gel, not axiron, it's a straight up lotion. If you'd like I can get the specifics of it for you so that you can have the same made.

With both of these methods I've seen steady levels of 900-1200. No peaks and drops like with injections. Just steady cruising : )

You can get the Rx from your same Dr and then have it turned into a compounding pharmacy to be made.

While I understand your hesitation, I think ultimately quality of life should be considered. What sort of effects effects will this have on just your mood alone? Energy? Recovery? When these factors are considered a glass half full mentality might be seen.

For what it's worth, if it were me, I would be doing the same thing as you. From the sounds of it, you've been exhausting other options for years, might as well give the one you know works a try.

My 2 cents.

- Valdez

h2s
11-18-2012, 12:24 PM
^ Great post.

Don't forget the new deodorant application! haha

AresTS
11-18-2012, 02:46 PM
^ Great post.

Don't forget the new deodorant application! haha

Yea dude that's axiron, I just saw a commercial for that a few days ago. I laughed out loud

- Valdez

Sperwer
11-18-2012, 08:22 PM
Good feedback, Sperwer. ...
Do you use anything else along with your TRT protocol?

My doc is an endo with heavy-duty specializations in anti-aging and nutrition. Before we even started on the Test, he had me using various nutritional/vitamin strategies to boost test, thyroid function, control cholesterol, reduce fat, regulate E, etc. Those didn't produce any particularly significant improvements in Test (although it did generate some), but I've continued most of them since they seem to have had other desirable effects. Probably, the single biggest ongoing interventions other than the Test are DHEA, 100mg/day, and 2.5 mg letrozole once a week. Here's the rest of the list:

Multivitamin (I use 1 Animal Pak)
Kaneka Ubiquinol 200mgx2 ED
Vitamin C 2000mgx2ED
Alpha Lipoic Acid 300mgx2ED
Green Tea Catechin 500mgx2ED
Grape Skin Extract (Resveratrol) 300mgx2ED
D3 5000IU/ED
Selenomethione 200mcg/ED
Lecithin 1200mgx2ED
Betaine 1000mgx2ED
Calcium citrate 300mgx2ED
Magnesium 200mgX2ED
Folic Acid 1mg/ED
Methylcobalamine 400mcg/ED
Pyroxidine 50mg/ED
White Button Mushrooms 3 heads/day
High Lignan Flaxseed Powder, 1 TBSP/day
Sesame Seed Powder, 1 TBSP/day
Legalon (milk thistle extract) 140mgx3ED
Entelon (vitas vinefera extract) 150mgx2ED (more resveratrol)
Biotin 400mcg/ED
Red yeast rice 1200mg/ED

Last bloods, my E was a whopping 60; E2 14. Total Cholesterol was 195: LDL 130 HDL 50 TGLYC 94

burlyman30
11-19-2012, 11:43 AM
Thanks for the info, Valdez. I'm not aware of all the testosterone "potions", but it's funny that two of you mentioned the deodorant-style one, as I rarely watch tv, but just happened to see that same commercial in the last week. Though using a daily cream sounds like something easy to forget or get too busy to do, the deodorant one actually makes sense as it is a normal morning activity. I know one of my friends is using the pellet implants and another friend is getting his compounded.

Sperwer, wow, you have quite a regimen! You've done well with your cholesterol, too. Glad to see that.

Sperwer
11-19-2012, 06:27 PM
I use Testogel when I am in Sweden. ...
Here's a tip: shave your scrotum and penis. Put about 1/3 to 1/2 of the packet on there. Put the rest on your chest. The effect is tremendous. .

I do this sometime too - WTF is it with us guys? - but be forewarned: you will be walking around with a "hunka, hunka burning love" for a bit afterwards. And, of course, it's not advisable if you are expecting any action.

O_RYAN_007
11-19-2012, 06:32 PM
I know around my parts they won't give you TRT even if you're down at 250. They haven't a clue how to administer test here, I heard they put a dude on Test P 100mg bi-weekly, nothing else.

A buddy of mind got prescribed 180mg bi-weekly of Test P by a so-called Hormonal Specialist. :rolleyes:

O_RYAN_007
11-19-2012, 07:46 PM
I told my buddy to ask his endo about hcg because clomid is making him feel like death and she said "that's a really good idea, I'll have to look into that..." Its crazy to me how far behind some are. This is your specialty lady, lets get it going!!!

- Valdez
Same goes for my buddies doctor. She's also my primary care physician who specializes in Test recovery treatments... Yet, when I spoke to her about all this stuff and what I've taken, it didn't seem like she knew much.

O_RYAN_007
11-19-2012, 08:03 PM
Yea dude that's axiron, I just saw a commercial for that a few days ago. I laughed out loud

- Valdez

I see that damn commercial on ESPN all the time! They know their target audience.

AresTS
11-20-2012, 11:24 AM
Same goes for my buddies doctor. She's also my primary care physician who specializes in Test recovery treatments... Yet, when I spoke to her about all this stuff and what I've taken, it didn't seem like she knew much.

Right?! You'd think with medicine always changing due to new studies, that they would focus on becoming more progressive.


I see that damn commercial on ESPN all the time! They know their target audience.

Big Pharma - gotta make that money

- Valdez

burlyman30
11-20-2012, 03:40 PM
Update...

http://i.imgur.com/gu2M9.jpg http://i.imgur.com/hCcwf.jpg http://i.imgur.com/xzZG8.jpg http://i.imgur.com/BadVR.jpg http://i.imgur.com/3KGYH.jpg

h2s
11-20-2012, 03:47 PM
..and it's official. Here is to a better feeling you.

xxiv
11-20-2012, 03:48 PM
i hope you've found the relief you've been looking for, you deserve it.
good luck.

burlyman30
11-20-2012, 04:13 PM
...and it's official. Here is to a better feeling you.


i hope you've found the relief you've been looking for, you deserve it.
good luck.

Thanks guys.

Doc wants me to start at 200mg/e2weeks for now. In 3 months we will do a pre and post injection blood test and check levels. Dosage adjustment from there. I asked about injecting every week and she wanted to start with every two weeks and then change from there as needed in 3 months. She was open to weekly injections and says some of her patients inject weekly now. I will comply for now. Any increase will be good at this point.

You'll notice that my Test levels were higher than originally stated in this thread. The endo didn't believe the earlier results I had gotten, and did 3 consecutive tests early in the morning, rather than later morning as the original had been done. All 3 of the new tests came out nearly identical.

Hematologist cleared me and said that my RBC count was good to go and that this out of range (slightly) number might be normal for me and that all my other numbers looked great.

nate3993
11-20-2012, 04:23 PM
Thanks guys.

Doc wants me to start at 200mg/e2weeks for now. In 3 months we will do a pre and post injection blood test and check levels. Dosage adjustment from there. I asked about injecting every week and she wanted to start with every two weeks and then change from there as needed in 3 months. She was open to weekly injections and says some of her patients inject weekly now. I will comply for now. Any increase will be good at this point.

You'll notice that my Test levels were higher than originally stated in this thread. The endo didn't believe the earlier results I had gotten, and did 3 consecutive tests early in the morning, rather than later morning as the original had been done. All 3 of the new tests came out nearly identical.

Hematologist cleared me and said that my RBC count was good to go and that this out of range (slightly) number might be normal for me and that all my other numbers looked great.
so your gonna do 100 every week right? going more than a week between injections is ludicrous.

edit:just read everything. i'd just do 100 every week man. i've yet to read about people on trt feeling fine going over a week. in fact, a lot recommend every 6 days cuz by day 7, your level is pretty fukin low. i mean, we all know about esters and what not so it just seems way silly to not inject weekly.

burlyman30
11-20-2012, 04:33 PM
so your gonna do 100 every week right? going more than a week between injections is ludicrous.

I'll comply with her wishes for 3 months and once she adjusts dosage, I'll probably start injecting weekly. Here is my thought: She wants to see (in 3 months) what my total and free levels are at their lowest (two weeks after an injection) and then 24 hours after an injection. I need to show her those true numbers. If they are still on the low end or if I am not feeling much better, she will likely increase my dosage. If I start injecting weekly now, she will not see the low point she is looking for or is accustomed to seeing. I don't mind waiting 3 months at all. This whole thing has been a 7 year journey. What's 3 months?

burlyman30
11-20-2012, 04:36 PM
Oh, and by the way... the vial cost me $10. lol.

nate3993
11-20-2012, 04:37 PM
Oh, and by the way... the vial cost me $10. lol.

ok. your right. what's 3 months, and at least you'll feel somewhat better. and sweet. i hope you feel better man. you deserve it.

burlyman30
11-20-2012, 04:41 PM
ok. your right. what's 3 months, and at least you'll feel somewhat better. and sweet. i hope you feel better man. you deserve it.

Thanks for the support.

:cool:

weekend
11-20-2012, 05:41 PM
Could always run 100 weekly then wait 2 weeks before your test.. Number will be low. Then inject 100 and get bloods for the 24 hours after and say it was 200. My dad is on trt as of a year ago.

Doc wanted him to do 300 every 3 weeks lol. An endocrinologist.

He did what I said above and the doc told him to bump it to 600 every 3 weeks.

So now he does 2 shots of 100 a week and feels great!

Same vial as you and everything hah

burlyman30
11-20-2012, 06:03 PM
Could always run 100 weekly then wait 2 weeks before your test.. Number will be low. Then inject 100 and get bloods for the 24 hours after and say it was 200. My dad is on trt as of a year ago.

Doc wanted him to do 300 every 3 weeks lol. An endocrinologist.

He did what I said above and the doc told him to bump it to 600 every 3 weeks.

So now he does 2 shots of 100 a week and feels great!

Same vial as you and everything hah

Interesting.... TRT at 200 a week is high for most guys in TRT. Has he had his test levels or RBC/Hematocrit levels checked recently?

xxiv
11-20-2012, 07:14 PM
Oh, and by the way... the vial cost me $10. lol.

you bastard.

burlyman30
11-21-2012, 12:24 PM
you bastard.

Lol.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Jelisej
11-21-2012, 05:20 PM
Burly, what about your adrenals, thyroid? Also your IGF levels could be better. As for protocol- IMO more frequent injecting would be better. Also HCG should be used as well, IMO.
In the end, did they diagnose you as a primary or secondary?

burlyman30
11-21-2012, 05:30 PM
Burly, what about your adrenals, thyroid? Also your IGF levels could be better. As for protocol- IMO more frequent injecting would be better. Also HCG should be used as well, IMO.
In the end, did they diagnose you as a primary or secondary?

I agree on the more frequent dosing, and as I mentioned above, I plan to do so once the doc is happy with the dosage. In the end, I think 2x week would be even better, but for now I am giving the doc what she wants to see.

As far as the HCG, I was planning to approach that subject with her once my testicles shrivel up more. I'm sort of taking the "one thing at a time" approach. Once the shrinkage occurs, I think there will be a more valid reason for her to prescribe it.

As far as IGF levels... will TRT improve that? Or does that take HGH? That's an area where my knowledge is lacking.

Let me see if I can dig up the last thyroid test that was taken. Pretty sure the adrenals have never been tested unless that is tested with a thyroid test.

She diagnosed me with secondary hypogonadism.

burlyman30
11-21-2012, 06:06 PM
J...

The last thyroid test I can find record of is as follows:

Result Range
TSH .84 .34-4.82

This was dated August of 2010

Jelisej
11-21-2012, 06:10 PM
Thing with HCG is that it helps out a bit with thyroid and adrenals as well as maintaining testicular function. I'm bit worried how your body will cope with testosterone shots. IGF may improve with TRT and exercise if not then HGH or GHRP's may be an option- from my observation- it seems that few guys that had heart attack/and other issues had a relatively low IGF levels, and also GH/IGF help with lot of repairs and recovery in body.
As for adrenals- ACTH test seems on lowish side, but ACTH is not one of the things I know lot of anyway it may indicate that your pituary is not stimulating your adrenals enough, but I may be wrong here- anyway if you start feeling weak, sleepy, difficulties getting out of bed that may likely be adrenal issues. TSH looks good, but again it may be your underactive thyroid- so pay attention to your body temp. that will tell you story about thyroid and even bit about adrenals

Side note- reading about your RBC, I just remebered that people who were taking aspirin even if they had a stroke/heart attack it did not leave permanent damage to their heart/brain. Even if taken after stroke/attack it still had a huge benefits.

burlyman30
11-21-2012, 06:21 PM
I was unaware of HCGs stimulatory affect on thyroid and adrenals. Good info. I'm familiar with the aspirin studies. I'm wondering how TRT will affect the ACTH. At least now that we have a baseline, we can note future changes.

Jelisej
11-21-2012, 06:31 PM
Well, you have enough knowledge to pinpoint possible issues, but hopefully it wont come to that. Hopefully it will all go smooth, and your endocrine system picks up nicely.

burlyman30
11-21-2012, 07:37 PM
J, I know that thyroid can affect T levels, but can the opposite also be true when talking about exogenous T?

Rulk
11-21-2012, 09:29 PM
Very informative thread here. Lots of good food for thought.

Jelisej
11-22-2012, 07:34 AM
J, I know that thyroid can affect T levels, but can the opposite also be true when talking about exogenous T?

Of course, at the moment you are at "slow motion" your metabolic rate is low, and everything is slow- once you start adding T your adrenals needs to shift into higher gear and thyroid needs to pick up, and increase metabolic rate and to put you in "normal speed motion". If your thyroid fails to pick up, you'll crash. Hopefully that will not happen, actually I'm more worried about your adrenals, but will see, at the moment we dont have sufficient data.

Infamy
11-22-2012, 07:48 AM
A study done on rats using 2mg of test prop per day showed an increase in thyroid hormone secretion rate so you should see an improvement there.

I know tren can decrease t3 though so if you were for instance considering using tren with trt at some point as some people do you might find the improvement in your thyroid amelieorated by the tren. I do wonder though whether it matters because I wonder if the decrease in t3 is merely the body's way of balancing out your metabolism and so your overall energy expenditure and functionality is the same due to some other effect tren may have elsewhere on metabolism.


J, I know that thyroid can affect T levels, but can the opposite also be true when talking about exogenous T?

Sorrow
11-22-2012, 08:41 AM
Great thread. Just got caught up. I went through similar routes as you. I did everything I could to stay "natural" mostly for competitions and such. My test was 183 though, same testing scenario as you. IE multiple early morning tests to verify. Currently on a 150 test c. every 2 weeks schedule. Started at 200 a month for two months just to look for any side effects.

In my case probably the biggest gain has been in clarity of thought! I knew my energy was getting lower and I wasn't healing as fast as I should. But, the real shock was after the second injection, I literally felt like I woke up from a long nap! Still working with my doc to make adjustments but the quality of life change has been worth the effort. I need to discuss HCG with him when we meet next.

Hope everything works out well for you, I'm sure it will.

DJM
11-22-2012, 11:25 AM
Side note- reading about your RBC, I just remebered that people who were taking aspirin even if they had a stroke/heart attack it did not leave permanent damage to their heart/brain. Even if taken after stroke/attack it still had a huge benefits.

i take a baby aspirin each day on cycle for that reason, no issues yet

burlyman30
11-22-2012, 09:16 PM
Of course, at the moment you are at "slow motion" your metabolic rate is low, and everything is slow- once you start adding T your adrenals needs to shift into higher gear and thyroid needs to pick up, and increase metabolic rate and to put you in "normal speed motion". If your thyroid fails to pick up, you'll crash. Hopefully that will not happen, actually I'm more worried about your adrenals, but will see, at the moment we dont have sufficient data.


A study done on rats using 2mg of test prop per day showed an increase in thyroid hormone secretion rate so you should see an improvement there.

I know tren can decrease t3 though so if you were for instance considering using tren with trt at some point as some people do you might find the improvement in your thyroid amelieorated by the tren. I do wonder though whether it matters because I wonder if the decrease in t3 is merely the body's way of balancing out your metabolism and so your overall energy expenditure and functionality is the same due to some other effect tren may have elsewhere on metabolism.

Great feedback from both of you guys. Thanks for sharing your encyclopedias of knowledge with me. I have been around the anabolic game for many years, but TRT is a specialized subset of that, and frankly I am becoming aware that even with my basic understanding, I do have some knowledge gaps I need to fill.

Love that about this forum... I never stop learning. :cool:

burlyman30
11-22-2012, 09:50 PM
Great thread. Just got caught up. I went through similar routes as you. I did everything I could to stay "natural" mostly for competitions and such. My test was 183 though, same testing scenario as you. IE multiple early morning tests to verify. Currently on a 150 test c. every 2 weeks schedule. Started at 200 a month for two months just to look for any side effects.

In my case probably the biggest gain has been in clarity of thought! I knew my energy was getting lower and I wasn't healing as fast as I should. But, the real shock was after the second injection, I literally felt like I woke up from a long nap! Still working with my doc to make adjustments but the quality of life change has been worth the effort. I need to discuss HCG with him when we meet next.

Hope everything works out well for you, I'm sure it will.

Thanks for joining this thread! It's great to have your input in this, so thanks for sharing your situation and please feel free to continue to do so. We all learn from each other here.

Funny you should mention mental clarity. Clarity of thought has been one of the most driving reasons for TRT, actually. I find myself forgetting names, direction, or other important details that I SHOULD know and DO know, but just can't recall when prompted to do so. My mental clarity and memory has been something I really depend on with my business and it is troublesome to feel like you are losing part of your faculties.

Really glad to hear that things have been going well for you so far.

How long have you now been at 150mg every 2weeks? And have you had your test levels measured since being at that dosage?

Sorrow
11-23-2012, 08:15 AM
I've been on the two week schedule for about a month and a half, 3 injections. Be my fourth on monday. The follow up blood work was scheduled for january but may be february now. My health insurance is way more complicated then it needs to be, but oh well. Injections are roughly 15$ a dose. But the blood work comes out of a health fund I pay into that doesn't get much pro-rated. So I was trying to make sure I had funds left "just in case" I didn't feel so good.

Feels like way less of a roller coaster at every two weeks. The once a month was for 3 months and I knew when the shots kicked in, and when they fell off.

burlyman30
11-23-2012, 03:04 PM
You pay by the injection? My endo just prescribed me a vial and had me come in for injection training. Funny thing though, the medical assistant drew up about 3/4 of a ml and I had to correct him "Umm, are you planning to have me use a full dose or is there a reason you are shorting me on this dose?"

I can't believe they had you doing 200mg 1x/month. It's no wonder you could feel the high and low of that! I'm quite sure I'll be feeling it in between the 2 week gap.

Like you, I'll be getting levels re-tested in February.

burlyman30
11-23-2012, 03:19 PM
Update, 3 days after 200mg injection.

I was particularly thirsty all day on day 1 of the injection and by the end of the day I felt "puffy", retaining water from what I would guess is in an increase in aldosterone from the hormonal shift in my body.

Yesterday, my appetite seemed a little higher than usual, and I enjoyed the Thanksgiving meal at lunch and at dinner.

I would guess that I have gained about 3 lbs in water retentive weight.

Mentally, I seem to be more relaxed/mellow. Yesterday I had a transmission blow out on my truck on the way to a family dinner and the start of a week long vacation and was pretty relaxed about it, even though it cost me money, time, and inconvenience.

Sleep. My sleep patterns have been a little irregular. I often do not sleep a lot (4-7 hours is normal for me), but I went to sleep by about 9-930 (very early for me) and did not get out of bed until 1030 (much later than usual). It will be interesting to track this change.

Jelisej
11-23-2012, 07:02 PM
OK, I think from sypmtoms you described is that your adrenals are now engaged in "frontline battle", altough its early to say or conclude anything, I think its better to consider any potential danger.
From previous symptoms- bronchitis/constant cough which can be because of low adrenal output (without sufficient cortisol lungs cant fight of inflammation/allergy). Memory problems/ clarity of toughts/brain fog is typically connected to poor adrenals. "Brain fog" is textbook symptom of adrenal fatigue.

New symptoms- excessive thirst could be result of LOW aldosterone. As the body tries to hold on to electrolytes and fluid- it pushes fluid into tissues whic causes swelling. (altough swelling is often sign of high E2).
Sleep- if you continue to sleep too many hours, and especially if its hard to get up from bed- it another sign of adrenals exaustion.
Also very often person feels sleepy afternoon, especially between 2-5pm, sometimes get feeling of euphoria for no aparent reason or sometimes can be bit "detached" from reality or worries, almost as he is in other dimension.
Other symptoms: eyes getting bit sensitive to light, itchy eyes (your eyes feel like you did not sleep for days).
Dizzy when you get up suddenly, fatigue... Muscle weakness- muscles around legs are quite sensitive to it so sometimes person may even get back pain.

I think that from your ACTH was questionable wheter your body will be able to produce enough cortisol to sustain higher testosterone levels. Other thing that comes to my mind is what is happening to your pregnenolone?
Side note- aldosterone and pregnenolone tests are inaccurate.

burlyman30
11-23-2012, 07:31 PM
J, as you mentioned, it's a bit early to know for sure, but my thought is that the adrenals are being asked to kick into gear and it's a wait-and-see game to see if they will answer to the call. I'm not sure in what time frame I should expect them to answer this call and normalize. Or if they decide not to, what the next step might be.

I'll keep an eye out for some of the other symptoms you mentioned and make a note of them here in the log as they present themselves.

Very interesting input on the bronchitis/adrenal connection. Would have been nice if my Endo or my GP would have connected the dots and at least looked at this as a possibility.

On the memory/brain fog, I knew it was an associated symptom of low testosterone, but it makes a lot more sense that it is a problem with low adrenals that also coincides with low testosterone.

burlyman30
11-25-2012, 11:03 PM
Approx 60 hours past the 200mg injection:

Overall, I feel ok. Neither overly tired, nor overly energetic. I'm quite sure I have retained a bit more fluid, both intra and extracellular in nature. I am on a short vacation over at the Oregon coast, so I don't have a scale to weigh myself to indicate how many pounds I've gained. I'd guess somewhere around 5 or 6 total. Some of the gain could likely be dietary. Between family meals and vacation meals since Thursday, my carb intake is higher than my usual, and I would expect a certain amount of fluid gain. But not to this extent. Granted, I'm not overly puffy. Just a bit. Veins in my arms are clearly visible.

My blood sugar has remained stable and my appetite seems relatively normal, possibly elevated a bit.

Sleep... I continue to sleep more than usual, but being on vacation, this is more the norm. However, I think I slept 9.5 to 10 hours last night, which is still out of character for me. Mind you, it feels pretty good, but 7-8 is the most I would normally sleep even in these circumstances unless overly exhausted for another reason.

Attitude... pretty good considering I have 10 and 12 year old nephews (no wisecracks, DJ lol) with me and my wife for the last 2 days. I'm a little less patient than I was two days ago, but no temper flares. I think it's circumstantial, as I'd grow weary of them after a while, regardless of cycle or not.

h2s
11-25-2012, 11:13 PM
I am curious how the body composition changes will manifest over the course of this. Even with in-range testosterone being the goal, it will still be quite an improvement from the prior sub-range period.

burlyman30
11-25-2012, 11:28 PM
I am curious how the body composition changes will manifest over the course of this. Even with in-range testosterone being the goal, it will still be quite an improvement from the prior sub-range period.

I will definitely report on this. I am equally curious. Obviously it is too early to report any real improvements yet.

It is probably important to note that over the past couple of years, when I would do a "bulk", even while on anabolic compounds, I found I would easily put on excess bodyfat and when leaning out, I found it much more difficult to do than in years gone by. This was, in part, a metabolism that was 20 years older than it used to be. But I have no doubt that there were hormones (or lack thereof) fighting against my efforts as well.

Freepressright
11-26-2012, 08:42 AM
Good reading, Burly. Just caught up this morning. Best of luck to you in this journey.

burlyman30
11-26-2012, 11:57 AM
Good reading, Burly. Just caught up this morning. Best of luck to you in this journey.

Thanks bud. Good to have you along for the ride.

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Cobalt
11-26-2012, 01:29 PM
Is it bad that I just pictured fpr and burly cruising down the road in a convertible, with test vials and dermacrine in the back seat?

DJM
11-26-2012, 01:43 PM
Is it bad that I just pictured fpr and burly cruising down the road in a convertible, with test vials and dermacrine in the back seat?

i smell a brokeback mountain sequal

Freepressright
11-26-2012, 02:15 PM
Bahahahahahahhah!

burlyman30
11-26-2012, 03:05 PM
Hilarious. Cobalt, you're on my radar now. Lol.

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Rulk
11-26-2012, 05:19 PM
Bur.. While explorting TRT, are you watching your cholesterol and bp readings more closely? I'm curious to see if they are impacted in any way.

Sorrow
11-26-2012, 05:21 PM
You pay by the injection? My endo just prescribed me a vial and had me come in for injection training. Funny thing though, the medical assistant drew up about 3/4 of a ml and I had to correct him "Umm, are you planning to have me use a full dose or is there a reason you are shorting me on this dose?"

I can't believe they had you doing 200mg 1x/month. It's no wonder you could feel the high and low of that! I'm quite sure I'll be feeling it in between the 2 week gap.

Like you, I'll be getting levels re-tested in February.

Yep, I actually just got an injection today, currently they have me go into the office to get injected. Not too bad but I would still rather save the trip. Think they want to make sure I at least start out on the exact prescribed amount. Its a 5$ service fee and takes like 10min. Oh and I rechecked the test C is 15$. I was incorrect earlier.

I did notice some bloat at first as well, but it wasnt anything permanent. I think it was after the 3rd injection I felt everything level out, but that was also the point where I switched to every 2 weeks... Which you're starting at! lol I think this is a the difference between a family practitioner and an endocrenologist.

burlyman30
11-26-2012, 05:44 PM
Bur.. While explorting TRT, are you watching your cholesterol and bp readings more closely? I'm curious to see if they are impacted in any way.

I've been working on my cholesterol this past year and brought it down from 257 to 227. I'll be keeping an eye on this at least a couple times a year.

BP is always great, unless I'm on superdrol (bp was crazy high) or similar compound. It usually is between 110/70 and 120/80. Dad has high bp, so it looks like I've dodged this bullet.

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Jelisej
11-26-2012, 06:34 PM
Once your thyroid picks up (hopefully) that should sort out cholesterol, or better said- cholesterol should present no more problems in future.

burlyman30
11-26-2012, 08:08 PM
Once your thyroid picks up (hopefully) that should sort out cholesterol, or better said- cholesterol should present no more problems in future.

I've heard of several guys who's cholesterol dropped around ten percent after starting TRT. You are probably right that it is from an increase in metabolic function.

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burlyman30
11-26-2012, 08:12 PM
Yep, I actually just got an injection today, currently they have me go into the office to get injected. Not too bad but I would still rather save the trip. Think they want to make sure I at least start out on the exact prescribed amount. Its a 5$ service fee and takes like 10min. Oh and I rechecked the test C is 15$. I was incorrect earlier.

I did notice some bloat at first as well, but it wasnt anything permanent. I think it was after the 3rd injection I felt everything level out, but that was also the point where I switched to every 2 weeks... Which you're starting at! lol I think this is a the difference between a family practitioner and an endocrenologist.

Interesting to me still, about the once monthly injections. My GP was going to start me on twice monthly but when he saw the other oddities from my bloodwork he wisely referred me on to specialists. I'll look forward to the updates in your treatment as we are in similar circumstances.

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burlyman30
11-26-2012, 08:17 PM
One more thing I forgot to add on my update: little to no change in libido at this point. It would have been nice if there was an increase, as I am on a vacation celebrating my 20th anniversary this week. My wife is great, though, having no expectations. Good thing, because I will meet those expectations easily. :banghead:

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Coolazice
11-26-2012, 08:40 PM
One more thing I forgot to add on my update: little to no change in libido at this point. It would have been nice if there was an increase, as I am on a vacation celebrating my 20th anniversary this week. My wife is great, though, having no expectations. Good thing, because I will meet those expectations easily. :banghead:

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Happy Anniversary, B-Man!!!

Sorrow
11-26-2012, 08:48 PM
yeah, congrats on the 20th

Rulk
11-26-2012, 08:50 PM
Happy Anniversary, B-Man!!!

here here!

naeydrin
11-26-2012, 09:02 PM
Congrats on 20 years of Marriage!
Really loving this thread with all the great info.

h2s
11-26-2012, 09:20 PM
Congrats big guy. Very rare these days to stand the test of time.

O_RYAN_007
11-26-2012, 09:30 PM
I agree on the more frequent dosing, and as I mentioned above, I plan to do so once the doc is happy with the dosage. In the end, I think 2x week would be even better, but for now I am giving the doc what she wants to see.

As far as the HCG, I was planning to approach that subject with her once my testicles shrivel up more. I'm sort of taking the "one thing at a time" approach. Once the shrinkage occurs, I think there will be a more valid reason for her to prescribe it.

As far as IGF levels... will TRT improve that? Or does that take HGH? That's an area where my knowledge is lacking.

Let me see if I can dig up the last thyroid test that was taken. Pretty sure the adrenals have never been tested unless that is tested with a thyroid test.

She diagnosed me with secondary hypogonadism.

Hit up the ghrp-2/mod combo for the increase in igf-1 levels

burlyman30
11-26-2012, 10:50 PM
Hit up the ghrp-2/mod combo for the increase in igf-1 levels

Thanks for the suggestion. This (peptides) is an area I haven't been particularly interested in but who knows where my journey will take me? I'll get my igf levels measured again once I'm at a consistent prescribed dosage and see where I need to go from there.

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burlyman30
11-29-2012, 03:00 AM
Quick update:

I woke up this morning with what felt like the dreaded "blue balls". I didn't wake with any morning wood, but am suspicious that there may have been some sustained wood attained while I slept. I don't think I have ever had a case this uncomfortable in my life-- it lasted about 4-5 hours and felt like my nuts were in a vice.

Additional update:

H2S made mention of my body composition and the eventual changes from TRT. As embarrassing as the pics are, I decided to take pics this morning and post them here as a sort of record of baseline. I have to tell you guys that I have been out of the gym since June because of work commitments in the summer and then a 4 month illness that began in August. I've necessarily lost plenty of muscle because of this and I'm feeling pretty "average" physique-wise because of it.

The cough that has vexed me for months is nearly gone in a near miraculous fashion and it coincides with my very first injection of testosterone, so it seems to be related to the low test. Time will tell. This is great news to me-- I finally feel like I could breathe while working out and feel "healthy" enough to pursue this again.



http://i.imgur.com/fiXpc.jpg http://i.imgur.com/eYuPK.jpg

h2s
11-29-2012, 08:35 AM
The cough that has vexed me for months is nearly gone in a near miraculous fashion and it coincides with my very first injection of testosterone, so it seems to be related to the low test. Time will tell. This is great news to me-- I finally feel like I could breathe while working out and feel "healthy" enough to pursue this again.

I really hope that ^ is the case, and that it is now behind you. I have a feeling this transition will provide more overall benefit to you than you originally thought. Time will tell. Also nice to see a visual representation of the progress that will be made over the course of this log. Reps Inbound.

longBallLima
11-29-2012, 12:26 PM
got caught up this morning :)

personally, i feel this log is one of the most insightful, important pieces of information on this forum (not that everything else is not important). something tells me a number of us might be looking into TRT in a varying number of years from now. i say sticky it and bestow upon burly the title of royalty.

thanks for the great info, burly and other contributors!!

Freepressright
11-29-2012, 01:11 PM
Burly,

Your thread is very honest and informative and I applaud you for posting those pictures even at a time where you feel uncomfortable because conditions have rendered you unable to give it hell like you usually do. You will be back there in no time, without a doubt.

xxiv
11-29-2012, 01:41 PM
this is the best read on the site and it keeps getting better.
go burly.

nate3993
11-29-2012, 02:21 PM
dam burly. im not into older dudes, but ur a good looking guy. and ur pretty muscular. just thought i'd let u know. haha.

h2s
11-29-2012, 02:29 PM
dam burly. im not into older dudes, but ur a good looking guy. and ur pretty muscular. just thought i'd let u know. haha
You must be missing Rob.

Coolazice
11-29-2012, 02:33 PM
You must be missing Rob.
Isn't he state-side now? He shouldn't be that hard to track down. :rolleyes:

burlyman30
11-29-2012, 02:52 PM
dam burly. im not into older dudes, but ur a good looking guy. and ur pretty muscular. just thought i'd let u know. haha.

Funny you should comment about this. I almost added in my last post "I know you aren't into older dudes, but don't get any ideas Nate!" Lol.

Thanks so much for all your positive comments, guys. I really appreciate your support. It means a lot to me. It's been a tough road but I look forward to a better year ahead.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Rulk
11-29-2012, 04:35 PM
Looking forward to the progress pics B.

Jelisej
11-29-2012, 06:47 PM
Good news Burly, it seems that your endocrine system is coping well so far, next thing to watch is E2- I'm guessing that your estrogen levels are rising so probably you'll have full scale morning woods soon. Tough I would suggest you to have E2 control plan ready.
Other thing I would watch for is thyroid- pay attention to bowel movements, if you get easily startled, panick attack+ usual thyroid symptoms (falling hair from all over body especially legs and sides of eyebrows, heat in/tolerance) etc...
Hopefully all goes fine.

Coolazice
11-29-2012, 06:54 PM
Other thing I would watch for is thyroid- pay attention to bowel movements, if you get easily startled, panick attack+ usual thyroid symptoms (falling hair from all over body especially legs and sides of eyebrows, heat in/tolerance) etc...
Hopefully all goes fine.

Can you please elaborate here? Thanks, J.

Jelisej
11-29-2012, 07:13 PM
OK- obviously as his tt level is raising his metabolic rate should increase- his TSH level was lower than it should be (in healthy people TSH is between 1- 1.5 mIU/L) TSH levels tells us what his "brain" thinks about thyroid levels- if brain thinks its more than enough it will be lower if brain thinks it not enough it will be higher- in his case there are 2 options- 1. his pituary was underactive hence lower TSH or 2. because low tt level his body was ok operating at low speed aka low metabolic rate so his pituary was not sending much signal (TSH) to thyroid for that particular reason
Now- as his TT levels are raising and will continue to raise his pituary needs to send signal to thyroid to make more thyroid hormones-
this will result in overall faster metabolic rate- his brain and memory will be faster, his digestion and overall processes would be faster, and also number of his bowel movemenets should increase- if not he'll suffer from constipation and probably some more issues, people with low thyroid hormones get startled easily, they tend to get panick attacks (especially if E2 is high as well), their skin is dry, nails brittle, and hair all over body is sensitive to thyroid and starts falling out, for some reason hair on side of the brows is very sensitive).

burlyman30
11-29-2012, 07:15 PM
Good news Burly, it seems that your endocrine system is coping well so far, next thing to watch is E2- I'm guessing that your estrogen levels are rising so probably you'll have full scale morning woods soon. Tough I would suggest you to have E2 control plan ready.
Other thing I would watch for is thyroid- pay attention to bowel movements, if you get easily startled, panick attack+ usual thyroid symptoms (falling hair from all over body especially legs and sides of eyebrows, heat in/tolerance) etc...
Hopefully all goes fine.

Thank you for the input. As long as I don't notice any estrogen related problems, I wasn't planning to do bloodwork for at least 3 months, as both the test and estrogen levels would continue to rise up to this point. At my 3 month blood test, if my endo does not measure estrogen, I will get it measured separately. Open to your input if you think there is a compelling reason not to wait until then.

One other notable change in my protocol:

As suggested earlier in this thread, I decided (after beginning to feel better) that I did not want my test levels to significantly wane and thus "lose ground" on my improvements. So after one week, I injected an additional 100mg and will continue this dose every week. This should help not only with blood level stability, but also with lower rate of aromatization.

Here's an interesting observation: both days I injected, I was simply not tired at night. Each time, I had to force myself to go to bed around 3am and then only with assistance from sleep aids. I also woke the next morning feeling just fine, as if the additional rest was unneeded.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Coolazice
11-29-2012, 07:32 PM
OK- obviously as his tt level is raising his metabolic rate should increase- his TSH level was lower than it should be (in healthy people TSH is between 1- 1.5 mIU/L) TSH levels tells us what his "brain" thinks about thyroid levels- if brain thinks its more than enough it will be lower if brain thinks it not enough it will be higher- in his case there are 2 options- 1. his pituary was underactive hence lower TSH or 2. because low tt level his body was ok operating at low speed aka low metabolic rate so his pituary was not sending much signal (TSH) to thyroid for that particular reason
Now- as his TT levels are raising and will continue to raise his pituary needs to send signal to thyroid to make more thyroid hormones-
this will result in overall faster metabolic rate- his brain and memory will be faster, his digestion and overall processes would be faster, and also number of his bowel movemenets should increase- if not he'll suffer from constipation and probably some more issues, people with low thyroid hormones get startled easily, they tend to get panick attacks (especially if E2 is high as well), their skin is dry, nails brittle, and hair all over body is sensitive to thyroid and starts falling out, for some reason hair on side of the brows is very sensitive).

Thank you for taking the time to type all that out!!!!

Jelisej
11-29-2012, 07:47 PM
I dont think that there is need for measuring E2 at this point really, in future it may be needed as sometimes is reall hard to tell difference between to high and too low E2. I cant remeber exactly the name of company in USA that has accurate E2 readings- I'll check on that but I think that test is ultrasensitive by Labcorp, as it can be very difficult to get accurate readings especially on TRT guys.
In Europe also is only one bloody lab that gets right E2 reading- and it is situated in Belgium. Even guys from Scandinavia have to send their specimens there.

- - - Updated - - -


Thank you for taking the time to type all that out!!!!

No problem, bro'. Anytime!

burlyman30
11-30-2012, 01:26 AM
I dont think that there is need for measuring E2 at this point really, in future it may be needed as sometimes is reall hard to tell difference between to high and too low E2. I cant remeber exactly the name of company in USA that has accurate E2 readings- I'll check on that but I think that test is ultrasensitive by Labcorp, as it can be very difficult to get accurate readings especially on TRT guys.
In Europe also is only one bloody lab that gets right E2 reading- and it is situated in Belgium. Even guys from Scandinavia have to send their specimens there.


Interesting info on the e2. Good to know. So for now I'll judge it by other signs.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

burlyman30
11-30-2012, 01:40 AM
Was feeling really good today. Went to the gym for the first time since June. It felt really good. The workout was necessarily light and relatively easy.

I did 5 sets for chest, tris, bis, and calves using 30 rep sets for all but calves where I employed 60 rep sets. I bookended the session with a 20 minute brisk walk before and after.

The pump was good and still feels somewhat present even 4 hours post workout.

Baby steps. But important ones.

Oh, one more update: I'm noticing the skin on my forehead is a bit more oily today. This is new. Not greasy or shiny like a teenage boy's complexion. Just feels a bit oilier to the touch.

Cobalt
11-30-2012, 05:14 PM
I woke up this morning with what felt like the dreaded "blue balls". I didn't wake with any morning wood, but am suspicious that there may have been some sustained wood attained while I slept. I don't think I have ever had a case this uncomfortable in my life-- it lasted about 4-5 hours and felt like my nuts were in a vice.

290

So y'all need to hide yo kids, hide yo wife, and hide yo husband cause burly be shootn' them tests.

Rulk
11-30-2012, 05:36 PM
I dig the bookend cardio Burly. Sounds like it's already kicking in- pumps and oily skin.

iron
11-30-2012, 06:45 PM
Quick update:

I woke up this morning with what felt like the dreaded "blue balls". I didn't wake with any morning wood, but am suspicious that there may have been some sustained wood attained while I slept. I don't think I have ever had a case this uncomfortable in my life-- it lasted about 4-5 hours and felt like my nuts were in a vice.

Additional update:

H2S made mention of my body composition and the eventual changes from TRT. As embarrassing as the pics are, I decided to take pics this morning and post them here as a sort of record of baseline. I have to tell you guys that I have been out of the gym since June because of work commitments in the summer and then a 4 month illness that began in August. I've necessarily lost plenty of muscle because of this and I'm feeling pretty "average" physique-wise because of it.

The cough that has vexed me for months is nearly gone in a near miraculous fashion and it coincides with my very first injection of testosterone, so it seems to be related to the low test. Time will tell. This is great news to me-- I finally feel like I could breathe while working out and feel "healthy" enough to pursue this again.



http://i.imgur.com/fiXpc.jpg http://i.imgur.com/eYuPK.jpg

*this is where a harry and the henderson jpeg would come in handy ; )

iron
11-30-2012, 06:49 PM
Here's an interesting observation: both days I injected, I was simply not tired at night. Each time, I had to force myself to go to bed around 3am and then only with assistance from sleep aids. I also woke the next morning feeling just fine, as if the additional rest was unneeded.



*this is where burly becomes a motovational speaker and tells a bunch of tweekers to do testosterone instead of crank

DJM
11-30-2012, 06:50 PM
the towel is the only thing i noticed in that huge post.......sigh

BBG
11-30-2012, 08:09 PM
Was feeling really good today. Went to the gym for the first time since June. It felt really good. The workout was necessarily light and relatively easy.

I did 5 sets for chest, tris, bis, and calves using 30 rep sets for all but calves where I employed 60 rep sets. I bookended the session with a 20 minute brisk walk before and after.

The pump was good and still feels somewhat present even 4 hours post workout.

Baby steps. But important ones.

Oh, one more update: I'm noticing the skin on my forehead is a bit more oily today. This is new. Not greasy or shiny like a teenage boy's complexion. Just feels a bit oilier to the touch.

Nice update burly. Looking forward to following your journey.

burlyman30
12-01-2012, 01:11 AM
the towel is the only thing i noticed in that huge post.......sigh

Just can't stop thinkin' about the weapon underneath, eh? You better pray we never meet, cuz it would split you in two. :eek:

burlyman30
12-01-2012, 01:14 AM
I dig the bookend cardio Burly. Sounds like it's already kicking in- pumps and oily skin.

Still hate cardio and think treadmills are an invention of the Devil himself. Nevertheless, it was a good way to ease in and out of the training session. If the past is any indication of the future, I'll ditch that treadmill soon as my workouts pick up (and my knees beg for mercy).

burlyman30
12-01-2012, 01:28 AM
Quick add: Scale at gym put me at 184 yesterday. To put this into perspective, I think I was down at about 178 about 3 or 4 weeks ago, which is the lowest I have been in probably 2 years.

At least half of the 6 lbs I seem to have gained is water retention, my gut seemed to grow larger and softer nearly overnight, but doesn't seem to have advanced any further.

Normal trained weight over the past year is between 188-195, and just over a year ago, I was probably a bit over 2 bills but fatter.

Sperwer
12-01-2012, 02:13 AM
Here's an interesting observation: both days I injected, I was simply not tired at night. Each time, I had to force myself to go to bed around 3am and then only with assistance from sleep aids. I also woke the next morning feeling just fine, as if the additional rest was unneeded.



I am tempted to say that this effect will eventually subside, but I'm not sure given your injection schedule. When I first started TRT, the doc I was seeing then - a GP, who liked to experiment HRT-wise on himself - had me on quarterly, then bi-monthly, then monthly injections of Nebido. Every time I got a shot, I experienced a massive burst of vitality that lasted a few days, during which I didn't sleep much, and my wife started locking herself in another room at night until I'd calmed down after a few days. Then it would rapidly and progressively subside, until the next shot. Now, with the daily topical application I don't have these ups and downs, just a nice high altitude cruising. Wifey still sleeps in a different room, though, after our regular assignations, since I'm still pretty frisky afterwards - just no longer a potential rapist (or maybe it's the snoring?). Looking back on the Nebido experience, I'm glad I have unusually good impulse control - 12 years of parochial school, I guess.

burlyman30
12-01-2012, 02:44 AM
Great input, Sperwer. I was sure there was a correlation. Thank you for confirming it. I'm not chasing the wife around the bed yet, but time will tell if it gets to that point.

nate3993
12-01-2012, 05:16 AM
what's ur height and age if i may ask?

BBG
12-01-2012, 07:39 AM
what's ur height and age if i may ask?

He's 6'8" 360, get with the program Nate

Sperwer
12-01-2012, 09:55 AM
He's 6'8" 360, get with the program Nate

He's 360 years old??? Shit, i thought i was the geezer around here.

h2s
12-01-2012, 10:09 AM
He's 360 years old??? Shit, i thought i was the geezer around here.

The man practically started bodybuilding.

burlyman30
12-01-2012, 10:15 AM
what's ur height and age if i may ask?

2 pics and you've already forgotten about Rob.... :rolleyes:

5' 6" and 42 yrs.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Freepressright
12-02-2012, 11:43 AM
I don't mean to hijack your thread, Burly, but was wondering if you'd take a moment to comment on something for the members.

You had said in the past that you ran AndroHard v1 during PCT and felt it was either not suppressive or not suppressive to the degree that it would prevent recovery during post cycle therapy.

Since then, I've researched Proviron, which is an already-active DHT. Studies on this steroid show it is not suppressive, and in fact that it stimulates LH production. That said, do you feel like that androsterone is much the same in that respect?

burlyman30
12-02-2012, 06:22 PM
I don't mean to hijack your thread, Burly, but was wondering if you'd take a moment to comment on something for the members.

You had said in the past that you ran AndroHard v1 during PCT and felt it was either not suppressive or not suppressive to the degree that it would prevent recovery during post cycle therapy.

Since then, I've researched Proviron, which is an already-active DHT. Studies on this steroid show it is not suppressive, and in fact that it stimulates LH production. That said, do you feel like that androsterone is much the same in that respect?

Although androsterone and the conversion of adrosterone to dht could potentially have slightly different effects than dht itself, I have not experienced that to be the case. I feel safe in saying that its mild or lack of suppressive effects are similar or equal to what one would experience with proviron.

I personally was always able to get my test levels up in PCT while using Androhard/Stanodrol.

In another thread here on SS, JeliseJ and I concurred that there could be differences in how individuals would process this compound at a said dose and some could be very slightly suppressed where as others could see no suppression at all. That being said, it always leads us back to individual bloodwork to tell the true story.

For those wanting a look at the proviron studies, I posted a couple in the Advanced Enhancement database.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Rulk
12-02-2012, 06:30 PM
^ So much info from the logs over at PP that will be lost soon :( ( your old logs )

smtimelevi
12-02-2012, 07:20 PM
Thank you for posting this thread burly. This is great info and an amazing thread. I'm looking forward to hearing of your progress and wish you much luck brother!

Cobalt
12-02-2012, 07:36 PM
^ So much info from the logs over at PP that will be lost soon :( ( your old logs )
Ctrl+C
Ctrl+P

h2s
12-02-2012, 11:37 PM
Ctrl+C
Ctrl+P

I still have to spend some time doing some final scans to see what else I should bring over here.

burlyman30
12-03-2012, 12:19 AM
Thank you for posting this thread burly. This is great info and an amazing thread. I'm looking forward to hearing of your progress and wish you much luck brother!

Glad to have you along for the ride, levi. :)

burlyman30
12-03-2012, 12:47 AM
^ So much info from the logs over at PP that will be lost soon :( ( your old logs )

Were there any of my threads or logs that were of particular interest that you think need to be brought over to SS?

Rulk
12-03-2012, 02:10 AM
Were there any of my threads or logs that were of particular interest that you think need to be brought over to SS?

Anyone who stocked up on Androbulk would most likely appreciate your Androbulk log.

Freepressright
12-03-2012, 07:48 AM
Although androsterone and the conversion of adrosterone to dht could potentially have slightly different effects than dht itself, I have not experienced that to be the case. I feel safe in saying that its mild or lack of suppressive effects are similar or equal to what one would experience with proviron.

I personally was always able to get my test levels up in PCT while using Androhard/Stanodrol.

In another thread here on SS, JeliseJ and I concurred that there could be differences in how individuals would process this compound at a said dose and some could be very slightly suppressed where as others could see no suppression at all. That being said, it always leads us back to individual bloodwork to tell the true story.

For those wanting a look at the proviron studies, I posted a couple in the Advanced Enhancement database.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Burly, thank you for answering this. I had referenced you in the past in this context, remembering that you ran DHT precursors in PCT and came out OK. Appreciate the info. I'll leave this alone so we can get back on topic.

burlyman30
12-03-2012, 10:25 AM
Anyone who stocked up on Androbulk would most likely appreciate your Androbulk log.

Not sure anyone had a chance to "stock up", with the way things went. :(

Jelisej
12-03-2012, 05:09 PM
Burly, thank you for answering this. I had referenced you in the past in this context, remembering that you ran DHT precursors in PCT and came out OK. Appreciate the info. I'll leave this alone so we can get back on topic.

I'll just say that I'm against any hormone being used in PCT. I think earlier me and Burly agreed that DHT based supplements can be supressive- depending from person to person. Anyway, I'm tired repeating same things all over again and again... If you want to play lottery with your balls- good luck!

burlyman30
12-03-2012, 05:30 PM
I'll just say that I'm against any hormone being used in PCT. I think earlier me and Burly agreed that DHT based supplements can be supressive- depending from person to person. Anyway, I'm tired repeating same things all over again and again... If you want to play lottery with your balls- good luck!

Referenced our agreement in my answer to FPR. As always, only bloodwork will show what's really happening to an individual.

burlyman30
12-05-2012, 01:09 AM
The Saga of the Pins...

So I went to Target on Saturday and while there, I stopped at the pharmacy and asked for some 18g draw needles. The counterperson checked and said they had none, but would order me a box of 100 and would call me on Monday. Easy enough.

Monday. No call.

Today I called them. Sure enough, they were in. I went there to pick them up. I'm asked to wait 30 minutes, so I wander around the store for a half hour before I return. I wait my turn at the counter and when I go up, she tells me Oregon law requires a prescription for these. Well then why the hell didn't my doc write a script for pins when she wrote one for Test C ???

I'm pissed, so I get on the phone with my doc office and request a script and tell them I can't buy pins without one (shouldn't they know this?) I had to do another errand, so I return in an hour and wait my turn in line again. And am told that my Rx has not been called in. I call the doc office again to ask what's up with this and I'm told that I should expect a 72 hour wait after calling in an Rx. I've never heard of this in my life. She is "kind" to me and says we can make an exception this time, and she will make sure it is called in today. While she's on the phone, I tell her to get me a script for some 23g as well.

So I have to leave and take care of the stuff I've had to put off by waiting around for these ridiculous scripts.

After about 5 hours, I return and they tell me that the Rx came in, but they will need 30 minutes. Again, I walk around the store pretending to be interested in things. I return at the correct time and am told the 18g draw needles they have are 1" not 1.5" as prescribed. I tell them I don't care and just give them to me. Apparently it's not that simple. They have to retype the order and ask me to return in 10 minutes, which I do. At that time, I am told they have done nothing on my order and need 20 more minutes.

I'm pissed at this point, but figure I've burned this much time and I don't have time the rest of the week to come deal with this, so I wander around in a pissy mood and return in 20 minutes. She sees me and goes in the back and I hear her say "hes back and waiting for his order". Once again, they have done NOTHING. I see them scurrying around, but not addressing me. About 10 minutes later, they say "we are working on it. it will be ready soon." So I stand there waiting. 10 more minutes and they are done.

I'm about seeing red at this point and she tells me the bill, which is about 12 bucks. I think to myself "cool, my insurance is paying for half of the pins and syringes. I didn't really notice the weight or size of the bag they gave me until I was in the car. I knew it was too small to have boxes in there, so I assumed it was all flat-packed.

I get to the car and am in a bit of a rush to pick up my wife after they have taken yet another hour and a half of my night, but I quickly look in the bag...

But... there are no boxes, no string of flat-packs... no...

There is ONE 23g syringe and ONE 18g draw needle. The price: $5.99 EACH.

What the heck just happened?!?! I'm angered, confused, and downright flabbergasted that this could even be possible. So I scurry through the bag some more. Nope. Just those 2. Let's just say I wasn't in the best mood when I picked up my wife 5 minutes later.

So I said "screw Oregon law", got online tonight, and ordered 100 of each for about $35 total.

Oh, and get this... the packaging on both the 18 and the 23g say "Refills: 2". LOL Like I would ever pay that! Those pins are going back and I'll make sure I do something with that $12 that puts a smile on my face.

weekend
12-05-2012, 02:11 AM
this is such typical pharmacy bullshit. same thing happened to my dad when he started TRT. i was with him when he picked up his first script and they were like, "you don't already have needles, what the hell?" looking at him like he was crazy lol

- - - Updated - - -

except he got 15x 21 g for drawing and 15x 25 g all for $4.50

burlyman30
12-05-2012, 02:16 AM
except he got 15x 21 g for drawing and 15x 25 g all for $4.50

I would've been fine paying that. I can't believe how hard I got hosed. <shaking head>

Has your dad been re-tested on his test levels since he went to 200/wk?

BBG
12-05-2012, 02:55 AM
So funny how impossibly cheap they are online, but absurdly expensive through the pharmacy.

It's no wonder pharm grade meds like cialis cost insane amounts, but buying them on RC sites is so inexpensive.

weekend
12-05-2012, 03:49 AM
He manipulated his way to 200 a week by getting tested during the trough instead of midway between shots. Doc is an idiot and originally told him to do 300 mg cyp every 3 weeks.

He never did, always 100 a week then got tested like 6 days after an injection and came back at 380 (originally 260).

Then he got prescribed 600 mg every 3 weeks (LOL).

But he is doing 100 every Monday and Thursday now. He got tested after a while but instead of getting tested during the midway point he skipped an injection and got it tested the day after that (a Friday). But he had been on 200 a week consistently for 2 months already. Level came back at 590. So I figure his trough is 650ish and peak is prob 1000ish. One things for sure... He's definitely looking healthier and happier since switching to 200. He used to be 450 lb at 5'8. He got down to 210 before TRT, and now he's down to 185.

longBallLima
12-05-2012, 03:58 AM
I found them in pharmacies for about the same price as online. just not as much variety. got a few 25g and felt that was a waste of time, so i have a box of 25 needles just laying around. 23 is the way to go for me it seems.


He manipulated his way to 200 a week by getting tested during the trough instead of midway between shots. Doc is an idiot and originally told him to do 300 mg cyp every 3 weeks.

He never did, always 100 a week then got tested like 6 days after an injection and came back at 380 (originally 260).

Then he got prescribed 600 mg every 3 weeks (LOL).

But he is doing 100 every Monday and Thursday now. He got tested after a while but instead of getting tested during the midway point he skipped an injection and got it tested the day after that (a Friday). But he had been on 200 a week consistently for 2 months already. Level came back at 590. So I figure his trough is 650ish and peak is prob 1000ish. One things for sure... He's definitely looking healthier and happier since switching to 200. He used to be 450 lb at 5'8. He got down to 210 before TRT, and now he's down to 185.

HOLY SHIT!!

burlyman30
12-05-2012, 04:28 AM
I found them in pharmacies for about the same price as online. just not as much variety. got a few 25g and felt that was a waste of time, so i have a box of 25 needles just laying around. 23 is the way to go for me it seems.


I'd personally only use a 25 with either a water-base or an extremely thin oil. I'm in agreement with you on the time factor. I'll shoot it in 3-5 seconds. I really don't want it to take any longer. lol. 20 years ago, I started out with 21s. I really don't mind them and they empty immediately, but the 23s are noticeably smaller. Others here use another approach and use much much smaller pins... 27s, even 29s. I personally can't imagine spending minutes on an injection, but to each his own.

burlyman30
12-05-2012, 04:32 AM
He manipulated his way to 200 a week by getting tested during the trough instead of midway between shots. Doc is an idiot and originally told him to do 300 mg cyp every 3 weeks.

He never did, always 100 a week then got tested like 6 days after an injection and came back at 380 (originally 260).

Then he got prescribed 600 mg every 3 weeks (LOL).

But he is doing 100 every Monday and Thursday now. He got tested after a while but instead of getting tested during the midway point he skipped an injection and got it tested the day after that (a Friday). But he had been on 200 a week consistently for 2 months already. Level came back at 590. So I figure his trough is 650ish and peak is prob 1000ish. One things for sure... He's definitely looking healthier and happier since switching to 200. He used to be 450 lb at 5'8. He got down to 210 before TRT, and now he's down to 185.

Great information for me, weekend. Thanks.

Repped.

Cobalt
12-05-2012, 07:32 AM
Christ burly, $12 for TWO pins?
I thought the laws around here were bad, but holy shit.

I did immuno-therapy a couple years back (for allergies) and I gave myself shots at home. 29ga slin pins. I had a script for .5 inch 28ga, but the pharmacist was very flexible on what I ended up getting. I still needed the script, but I didn't have to get -exactly- what it said.

Oh, and I don't go to the Target pharmacy here anymore. They are a bunch of twats.

h2s
12-05-2012, 08:18 AM
I would laugh at the price, but I am sure there are a bunch of people paying that and knowing no better. I get boxes for what you would spend for 6-8.

burlyman30
12-05-2012, 10:48 AM
Pinned again today. 100mg. I have been jonesing for the shot since Sunday, to be honest. At this point, I cannot tell you if that was brought on by psychological or physiological reasons, or a combination of the two.

In two weeks I have a blood draw to test for polycythemia (RBCs too high). Those who have followed from the beginning of this thread know that my levels were just slightly beyond the high side of the range and there was some initial concern about that. If this current dosage shows signs of increasing this, then it is likely that I will begin donating blood in order to decrease this. The other alternative is to stop TRT and, well, if I didn't need it in the first place I wouldn't be here.

Started my workouts at the end of last week. I thought I started easy/light, but apparently my body didn't agree. I'm still too sore to continue working out at this point so far in the week. I may need a couple more days rest. I've been in a lot of pain, actually. Beyond the norm. So I'll go even easier next time. For the last few days I've kept thinking "I need some tren to heal up!" Nothing works better, in my experience.

I started a thread here on SS about intramuscular vs subcutaneous injection. The initial spark in interest was from a show on superhuman radio. The other reason, I had failed to mention on this log. When I went in for "injection training", the med assistant said this would be an intramuscular shot, which I had expected. However, the instruction he gave me for giving the shot was not consistent with intramuscular injection, but rather subcutaneous.

Let me explain. He told me to grab the skin on the top of my leg (while sitting) and squeeze it together. Doing so, creates a "lump" of flesh/fat about 1.5" high. Then he had me inject the 1" needle. I don't think his math is so good, as it is physically impossible to reach the muscle by injecting in this fashion.

However, I didn't argue. I just went along. After all, I had already embarrassed him when he drew the incorrect amount into the syringe and I had to point that out. I didn't want to have a field day with his confidence levels. I figured (remembering some of the show on SHR) I would just see how things went.

As reported here, all went well with that initial injection and so last week I decided to mimic that injection technique. Again, all went well, so I repeated again this morning.

I have 1.5" pins at my house currently that a buddy of mine sold me (box of 1" on order), so I simply put the pin 2/3 of the way in prior to depressing the plunger.

From the "early years" of injecting, I had a lot of hard nodules and scar tissue that formed in my glutes. The scar tissue is probably still there, but the nodules finally went away completely after about 10 years. Injecting into the fat appears to avoid/alleviate this problem, so I will likely continue this protocol unless an issue arises. One advantage to SubQ injections--no muscle soreness post injection. No PIP at all.

burlyman30
12-05-2012, 10:59 AM
Oh, and I don't go to the Target pharmacy here anymore. They are a bunch of twats.

It was chosen for 1) convenience, as it is nearby me and right off the freeway and 2) the one I go to is less busy than others and the lines are almost always short. This is the first problem I have had with them. It may not be the last, but let's hope it takes a while before the next blunder.

DJM
12-05-2012, 11:05 AM
I would laugh at the price, but I am sure there are a bunch of people paying that and knowing no better. I get boxes for what you would spend for 6-8.

online i grab 100 for $8

interesting pinning technique burly.....seeing it went well.....once or twice in my slin pinning i didnt go far enough it seemed pinning while, and id get redness and swelling in the area (quad), that subsided in 3days give or take....wasnt the oil seeing i rotated sites, always figured was not going IM..........then id ask, if all you do is pinch the skin, couldnt you slin it into the pinched fat?

burlyman30
12-05-2012, 11:25 AM
online i grab 100 for $8

interesting pinning technique burly.....seeing it went well.....once or twice in my slin pinning i didnt go far enough it seemed pinning while, and id get redness and swelling in the area (quad), that subsided in 3days give or take....wasnt the oil seeing i rotated sites, always figured was not going IM..........then id ask, if all you do is pinch the skin, couldnt you slin it into the pinched fat?

I think I paid $12 for 100 last night.

I'm sure slin pinning works, but how long does it take to get that through such a tiny needle? A couple minutes? The 23g I can barely feel. I remember trying 25g many years ago and abandoning it because it took too long to empty. 21g empties immediate, but I feel it more. I probably used a box of 21s when I first started pinning, before I found 23s more to my liking.

My other concern with subQ with slins: depth. If you were to inject 1cc+ of product at 1/2 to 5/8 depth, it seems a bit shallow for my liking, and I would think it would leave a bump that could be easily irritated prior to absorption of product. The 1" depth seems to work great so far.

Cobalt
12-05-2012, 11:41 AM
The 1" depth seems to work great so far.

Ever try 1.5"?

I use 1.5 25ga for my stuff. It goes deeeeeep (I've gone THROUGH veins before) and even though it takes a bit longer to push in, there is no pain. I seriously almost pass out at the doctors office when they hit me with whatever they use. I assume its a 23-21ga.
I've been thinking about going with a 1", but I still have some 1.5" to burn up.

DJM
12-05-2012, 11:43 AM
I think I paid $12 for 100 last night.

I'm sure slin pinning works, but how long does it take to get that through such a tiny needle? A couple minutes? The 23g I can barely feel. I remember trying 25g many years ago and abandoning it because it took too long to empty. 21g empties immediate, but I feel it more. I probably used a box of 21s when I first started pinning, before I found 23s more to my liking.

My other concern with subQ with slins: depth. If you were to inject 1cc+ of product at 1/2 to 5/8 depth, it seems a bit shallow for my liking, and I would think it would leave a bump that could be easily irritated prior to absorption of product. The 1" depth seems to work great so far.

25s are slower than slins in my exp, oil doesnt fkn move
23s are great after slins

the depth part i figured is solved seeing you are pinching up the skin anyway, youve just pulled it up.....when i slin i go straight in and it gets in the muscle, altho quads and delts are quite lean and my 3rd option is tris, but iv never pinned often enough or that much volume to need more than delts and quads......i guess my thinking is you pinching skin and going in sub q, or me slinning not deep enough, itll still end up sub q no? and if so, we've experienced different things afterwards

- - - Updated - - -


Ever try 1.5"?

I use 1.5 25ga for my stuff. It goes deeeeeep (I've gone THROUGH veins before) and even though it takes a bit longer to push in, there is no pain. I seriously almost pass out at the doctors office when they hit me with whatever they use. I assume its a 23-21ga.
I've been thinking about going with a 1", but I still have some 1.5" to burn up.
i wouldnt even use 1.5 inch for glutes, fkn dagger

burlyman30
12-05-2012, 11:46 AM
Ever try 1.5"?

I use 1.5 25ga for my stuff. It goes deeeeeep (I've gone THROUGH veins before) and even though it takes a bit longer to push in, there is no pain. I seriously almost pass out at the doctors office when they hit me with whatever they use. I assume its a 23-21ga.
I've been thinking about going with a 1", but I still have some 1.5" to burn up.

You missed earlier comments. I'm using 1.5 now, but only going 1" for subQ.

BBG
12-05-2012, 11:53 AM
I use 25s for injecting, 23s for drawing. D, I have no idea how you can use slinpins. Ive only ever done delt injections since I just hit test once or twice a week.

burlyman30
12-05-2012, 11:56 AM
25s are slower than slins in my exp, oil doesnt fkn move

Interesting. I thought slins were 29s. Maybe it has to do with the narrow barrel creating higher pressure to evacuate.


my thinking is you pinching skin and going in sub q, or me slinning not deep enough, itll still end up sub q no? and if so, we've experienced different things afterwards


Yes, if you aren't deep enough to be IM, then it would be subQ. I was suggesting that maybe the depth of the SubQ could be a factor. Your quads are lean, but mine are not, so I can go deeper there. I would think that the depth of the subq could be a factor in irritation. May want to try an area with more fat and go deeper just to see if irritation persists. If it does, then that is an individual difference in tolerance.

DJM
12-05-2012, 12:03 PM
Interesting. I thought slins were 29s. Maybe it has to do with the narrow barrel creating higher pressure to evacuate.



Yes, if you aren't deep enough to be IM, then it would be subQ. I was suggesting that maybe the depth of the SubQ could be a factor. Your quads are lean, but mine are not, so I can go deeper there. I would think that the depth of the subq could be a factor in irritation. May want to try an area with more fat and go deeper just to see if irritation persists. If it does, then that is an individual difference in tolerance.

29 is a slin, was saying 25g pin was slower to inject than the slin
ill pin glutes or the vaso with a slin, plenty fat there, and see what happens,no?

DJM
12-05-2012, 12:05 PM
I use 25s for injecting, 23s for drawing. D, I have no idea how you can use slinpins. Ive only ever done delt injections since I just hit test once or twice a week.

i actually dont like 25s, plunger goes sooooo slow i find, slins better, the pressure from the small barrel, 23 empties really quick, just im used to 29g .5inch so a 23 looks like a knife to me

you are just as lean as me, youd have no issue getting IM with a 29 .5inch

burlyman30
12-05-2012, 12:14 PM
29 is a slin, was saying 25g pin was slower to inject than the slin

Yes, I understood. I was saying I was surprised that a 29 would be faster, and assuming it was the higher pressure from the small barrel that made it that way


ill pin glutes or the vaso with a slin, plenty fat there, and see what happens,no?

.5 inch subQ in quad is same as .5 inch subQ in glutes as far as I'm concerned. If you have irritation at a shallow subQ depth, you'll likely have it elsewhere at the same depth. That's why I suggested more depth (i.e, 1"), but still subQ. So yes, try glutes, but try going deeper.

Cobalt
12-05-2012, 12:31 PM
so a 23 looks like a knife to me

This coming from the guy who had to pin some HGH with an 18ga cannon because he didn't have anything else.

longBallLima
12-05-2012, 12:37 PM
This coming from the guy who had to pin some HGH with an 18ga cannon because he didn't have anything else.

you prolly need stitches for that shit...

burlyman30
12-05-2012, 12:42 PM
This coming from the guy who had to pin some HGH with an 18ga cannon because he didn't have anything else.

I missed that story. lol.

AestheticOne
12-05-2012, 01:15 PM
uhhh... what the fuck, why have i never heard of people injecting test sub-q until now?

also if someone wouldnt mind tellling me the benefits of injecting it sub-q over IM that'd be much appreciated also

h2s
12-05-2012, 01:16 PM
uhhh... what the fuck, why have i never heard of people injecting test sub-q until now?

because it is not common at all for oils.

burlyman30
12-05-2012, 01:25 PM
uhhh... what the fuck, why have i never heard of people injecting test sub-q until now?

also if someone wouldnt mind tellling me the benefits of injecting it sub-q over IM that'd be much appreciated also

Started a thread over here. Intramuscular vs. Subcutaneous Injections (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/misc/366-intramuscular-vs-subcutaneous-injections.html)

AestheticOne
12-05-2012, 01:28 PM
Started a thread over here. Intramuscular vs. Subcutaneous Injections (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/misc/366-intramuscular-vs-subcutaneous-injections.html)

thanks, hope everything is going well with the TRT ride

DJM
12-05-2012, 02:30 PM
This coming from the guy who had to pin some HGH with an 18ga cannon because he didn't have anything else.
who me????? nah never used gh, or ever had an 18g in the house,wrong guy

h2s
12-05-2012, 02:41 PM
who me????? nah never used gh, or ever had an 18g in the house,wrong guy

Thats what I thought, and why I waited your response. I didn't think you would have an 18g, but I KNEW you had never used G.

Freepressright
12-05-2012, 02:48 PM
I missed that story. lol.

As did I

burlyman30
12-05-2012, 03:02 PM
who me????? nah never used gh, or ever had an 18g in the house,wrong guy

Maybe he was thinking about my encounter with a Revalor gun...

http://i.imgur.com/lBdTc.jpg

DJM
12-05-2012, 03:13 PM
maybe he was thinking about my encounter with a revalor gun...

http://i.imgur.com/lbdtc.jpg

jesus christ !!!!!

BBG
12-05-2012, 03:14 PM
i actually dont like 25s, plunger goes sooooo slow i find, slins better, the pressure from the small barrel, 23 empties really quick, just im used to 29g .5inch so a 23 looks like a knife to me

you are just as lean as me, youd have no issue getting IM with a 29 .5inch

Eh, 25 is fine. It's slow but literally no PIP unless I move around. I just sit down at my desk, rest elbows on the desk. Reduces tension in the muscle so it isn't flexing/moving while the pin is.

Cobalt
12-05-2012, 05:50 PM
Maybe he was thinking about my encounter with a Revalor gun...

http://i.imgur.com/lBdTc.jpg

Yeah, that's how I used to dose my Fina!

burlyman30
12-05-2012, 06:13 PM
Yeah, that's how I used to dose my Fina!

I got a free gun with a box of pellets... loaded in a strip of 10, and stared down the gun-barrel sized needle...

At 1/8 inch diameter, it won't just leave an injection mark... it will leave a crater. And possibly a trip to the Emergency Room.

Never did it, but I was 1/4 inch away from doing it. I started sweating profusely and either lost my nerve or came to my senses.

BBG
12-05-2012, 06:20 PM
I got a free gun with a box of pellets... loaded in a strip of 10, and stared down the gun-barrel sized needle...

At 1/8 inch diameter, it won't just leave an injection mark... it will leave a crater. And possibly a trip to the Emergency Room.

Never did it, but I was 1/4 inch away from doing it. I started sweating profusely and either lost my nerve or came to my senses.

Or you PUSSIED OUT old man. Call a spade a spade. Anything for the gains!

*3 years later BBG dies of liver poisoning. Tombstone reads: I bet my casket is HUGE!*

nate3993
12-05-2012, 07:18 PM
2 pics and you've already forgotten about Rob.... :rolleyes:

5' 6" and 42 yrs.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

lol. and daaaaaama. u shorter than me. i thought i was short at 5 7

xxiv
12-05-2012, 07:42 PM
At 1/8 inch diameter, it won't just leave an injection mark... it will leave a crater. And possibly a trip to the Emergency Room.


I have an 8ga (1/8 inch) piercing needle, it is no joke. I lost my nerve as well, it makes a great coffee table discussion piece though.

burlyman30
12-05-2012, 11:25 PM
I mentioned a few days ago, that my face felt a bit oilier. This has increased a bit. Not out of control, by any means. Not shiny-faced. No acne popping up.

Libido seemed up today... it's been slowly on the rise, but not really at a point where I am confident in performing yet. Wife has an (unfounded) fear of Viagra and similar compounds, so we've never gone that route. But I think I may get some for when that time comes--as a confidence booster of guaranteed performance, if nothing else. You guys may not have dealt with this, but not being capable to perform after many attempts makes a guy very "gun-shy" to try again, so it's been quite literally years for me.

I was reading another forum regarding TRT's onset of effects. Many were saying 2 weeks to begin feeling better, but 4 weeks for libido to fully return and 3 months for the physical effects, i.e. recomp, to occur. I'll continue to keep you posted. I am a full two weeks in at this point and I do feel better, but I am still at the "I need to feel more better" point.

DJM
12-06-2012, 06:47 AM
I mentioned a few days ago, that my face felt a bit oilier. This has increased a bit. Not out of control, by any means. Not shiny-faced. No acne popping up.

Libido seemed up today... it's been slowly on the rise, but not really at a point where I am confident in performing yet. Wife has an (unfounded) fear of Viagra and similar compounds, so we've never gone that route. But I think I may get some for when that time comes--as a confidence booster of guaranteed performance, if nothing else. You guys may not have dealt with this, but not being capable to perform after many attempts makes a guy very "gun-shy" to try again, so it's been quite literally years for me.

I was reading another forum regarding TRT's onset of effects. Many were saying 2 weeks to begin feeling better, but 4 weeks for libido to fully return and 3 months for the physical effects, i.e. recomp, to occur. I'll continue to keep you posted. I am a full two weeks in at this point and I do feel better, but I am still at the "I need to feel more better" point.

cialis

Jelisej
12-06-2012, 07:04 AM
I mentioned a few days ago, that my face felt a bit oilier. This has increased a bit. Not out of control, by any means. Not shiny-faced. No acne popping up.

Libido seemed up today... it's been slowly on the rise, but not really at a point where I am confident in performing yet. Wife has an (unfounded) fear of Viagra and similar compounds, so we've never gone that route. But I think I may get some for when that time comes--as a confidence booster of guaranteed performance, if nothing else. You guys may not have dealt with this, but not being capable to perform after many attempts makes a guy very "gun-shy" to try again, so it's been quite literally years for me.

I was reading another forum regarding TRT's onset of effects. Many were saying 2 weeks to begin feeling better, but 4 weeks for libido to fully return and 3 months for the physical effects, i.e. recomp, to occur. I'll continue to keep you posted. I am a full two weeks in at this point and I do feel better, but I am still at the "I need to feel more better" point.

Burly- citrulline l malate+ beet root is natural viagra, actually I poste an article on PP forum which proves that citruline l malate can actually cure erectile dysfunctions.

Freepressright
12-06-2012, 09:00 AM
I can attest to this. I have used a cocktail (hehe) of PrimaForce citrulline malate, Swanson's AAKG powder and L-ornithine and felt the erectile enhancement benefits.

I can't imagine how good CM would be with agmatine sulfate from over at PN. I am unfamiliar with beet root, though.

burlyman30
12-06-2012, 10:37 AM
J, I searched PP and found it. I wanted to get to it before the site shuts down. I copied and pasted it into the Supplement section here at SS so others can benefit from this information. Thank you for this.

Guys, I reposted the article here: Citrulline Cures Erectile Dysfunction (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/supplements/386-Citrulline-Cures-Erectile-Dysfunction.html)

Freepressright
12-06-2012, 10:42 AM
J, I searched PP and found it. I wanted to get to it before the site shuts down. I copied and pasted it into the Supplement section here at SS so others can benefit from this information. Thank you for this.

Guys, I reposted the article here: Citrulline Cures Erectile Dysfunction (http://www.swolesource.com/forum/supplements/386-Citrulline-Cures-Erectile-Dysfunction.html)

Burly, have you considered getting on Swanson and grabbing some PrimaForce CM powder and some AAKG powder and seeing what kinds of results you'd get 'downstairs?'

burlyman30
12-06-2012, 10:51 AM
Burly, have you considered getting on Swanson and grabbing some PrimaForce CM powder and some AAKG powder and seeing what kinds of results you'd get 'downstairs?'

This article has just made me consider it, actually. Are you saying that the AAKG has similar effects to the CM?

Freepressright
12-06-2012, 11:01 AM
AAKG - Enhanced arginine which provides the 'quick response' rush of NO
Citrulline Malate - An arginine precursor which produces a long-acting NO
L-ornithine - Slows the degradation of nitric oxide

This cocktail has a ton of erectile kick. I've tried it myself.

burlyman30
12-06-2012, 11:42 AM
AAKG - Enhanced arginine which provides the 'quick response' rush of NO
Citrulline Malate - An arginine precursor which produces a long-acting NO
L-ornithine - Slows the degradation of nitric oxide

This cocktail has a ton of erectile kick. I've tried it myself.

Interesting, because arginine is formed in vivo by citrulline consumption and ornithine is actually formed by arginine. L-arginine has typically had horrible oral absorption, but AAKG is formulated in an attempt to bypass that issue. Not sure about ornithine's oral absorption.

I can see how the addition of a quicker acting NO-increasing compound would put the effects of CM in "turbo mode". Thanks for the explanation and insight.

Curious... what would be your reason for recommending citrulline malate over L-citrulline?

markam
12-06-2012, 01:22 PM
Re AAKG; I'd use Agmatine instead. I recall there being some health issues with high doses of Arginine and you only need 1 gm of Agmatine ed. I think Citrulline Malate is superior to L-Citruline , maybe better uptake, can't remember.

Freepressright
12-06-2012, 01:25 PM
Interesting, because arginine is formed in vivo by citrulline consumption and ornithine is actually formed by arginine. L-arginine has typically had horrible oral absorption, but AAKG is formulated in an attempt to bypass that issue. Not sure about ornithine's oral absorption.

I can see how the addition of a quicker acting NO-increasing compound would put the effects of CM in "turbo mode". Thanks for the explanation and insight.

Curious... what would be your reason for recommending citrulline malate over L-citrulline?

Bioavailability is night and day between regular L-citrulline and malate. The malate is a compound of citrulline and malic acid. The malic acid enhances absorption to a significant degree. I have used regular L-citrulline and had no results at even high doses. There seems to be a consensus among users on the net regarding this. Always go for the malate version.

But yes, the AAKG gets things started, the CM continues and heightens it and the CM prolongs the life of the NO. Very synergistic trio. Quite effective, so much so that it makes your ears warm and you will get some head pressure similar to that of Viagra or Cialis.

A therapeutic dose of the CM for erectile enhancement is around 6g. AAKG's standard dose is 5g. Ornithine is about 1.5 to 2 grams.

- - - Updated - - -

I do agree with Markam in that if you are an agmatine sulfate responder, it would probably be superior to AAKG - but dollar for dollar, there isn't anything wrong with the AAKG powder from Swanson and it is quite effective in the trio I mentioned above.

burlyman30
12-06-2012, 02:39 PM
Agmatine...interesting. It just so happens I was sent a free bottle of agmatine by synthetic supplements a few months back. They were supposed to send me an entirely different product and I was going to report back. When I reported the error, I never heard back, so it has just sat in my cupboard collecting dust. 60, 500mg caps. Think this would work on it's own if I wanted to trial it prior to getting CM?