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BBG
11-05-2012, 02:17 AM
Has anyone here run a calorie deficit while running tren?

I'm thinking sometime in December running test+tren approx 300mg and 300mg per week, maybe throw in some winny if i tolerate the tren well.

I would be running at a small deficit to lean up and probably add some stims towards the ends. I wanted dermatherm but... guess not.

I don't see myself getting too much bigger (realistically, it would just be too much of an investment to get bigger and stay that big) so I'm just looking to lean out and maintain my condition as best as possible without steroids (though that doesnt mean on PEDs are out).

burlyman30
11-05-2012, 02:29 AM
Test P and Tren A, I assume? Tren is one of those compounds that you can still grow on, even with a slight caloric deficit. Winny works, too, but my main concern with it is it's affects on the connective tissue, so a short run is all I could ever recommend.

BBG
11-05-2012, 02:38 AM
Yes, Prop and Acetate. I was hoping you would say that, as that's sort of what I'm going for. I think starting at 300 and 300 per week is fine, if I tolerate tren I'll up the dose. I know my source has some very legit stuff so it won't be underdosed.

I'm hoping achilles from AL will help alleviate the issues with the winstrol and the new heart health supp should help with cardio support a ton as well. Those are my two main concerns (I also use aegis with hepatotoxic orals but, yeah, heart+connective tissue on winny can take big beating).

Did you run tren for precontest?

h2s
11-05-2012, 02:45 AM
Yes, Prop and Acetate. I was hoping you would say that, as that's sort of what I'm going for. I think starting at 300 and 300 per week is fine, if I tolerate tren I'll up the dose. I know my source has some very legit stuff so it won't be underdosed.

I'm hoping achilles from AL will help alleviate the issues with the winstrol and the new heart health supp should help with cardio support a ton as well. Those are my two main concerns (I also use aegis with hepatotoxic orals but, yeah, heart+connective tissue on winny can take big beating).

Did you run tren for precontest?

We might be having a very similar cycle coming up. I am including Mast if I go that route, however.

burlyman30
11-05-2012, 02:48 AM
Yes, Prop and Acetate. I was hoping you would say that, as that's sort of what I'm going for. I think starting at 300 and 300 per week is fine, if I tolerate tren I'll up the dose. I know my source has some very legit stuff so it won't be underdosed.

I'm hoping achilles from AL will help alleviate the issues with the winstrol and the new heart health supp should help with cardio support a ton as well. Those are my two main concerns (I also use aegis with hepatotoxic orals but, yeah, heart+connective tissue on winny can take big beating).

Did you run tren for precontest?

Winny made me tight as a drum, muscle-wise, but also reduced my flexibility dramatically. However, my understanding of winny's effect on connective tissue is that it will not be undone by any products, as good as Antaeus is. Here's the reason: Winny thickens connective tissue, which sounds like a good thing, however, the way it "folds" as it is created ends up making the connective tissue more brittle, less elastic. 4 weeks max, in my opinion.

In my competitive days, I ran some Parabolan, but could never get it around contest time which was regrettable based on it's anabolic properties. Loved Parabolan.

BBG
11-05-2012, 02:49 AM
Thanks for the info Burly. I may instead go with mast as that was my original plan, but it can be pretty expensive.


We might be having a very similar cycle coming up. I am including Mast if I go that route, however.

I wanted to go Test/Tren/Mast but again, it would be mad expensive in comparison. But I would love the mast.

burlyman30
11-05-2012, 02:53 AM
Mast is a better choice in my view. You may still get some joint stiffness from long term usage, but not the same issues as with winny.




Thanks for the info Burly. I may instead go with mast as that was my original plan, but it can be pretty expensive.

longBallLima
11-05-2012, 11:47 AM
did any of you guys ever do the finaplix -> transdermal tren conversion thing? is that a myth? forgive the noob

h2s
11-05-2012, 11:50 AM
did any of you guys ever do the finaplix -> transdermal tren conversion thing? is that a myth? forgive the noob

Not a myth. You can fina -> tren, and you can apply transdermally.

DJM
11-05-2012, 12:00 PM
Thanks for the info Burly. I may instead go with mast as that was my original plan, but it can be pretty expensive.



I wanted to go Test/Tren/Mast but again, it would be mad expensive in comparison. But I would love the mast.

in my exp, test/tren/mast and test/tren , only difference was a minor lethargy mental fog without the mast that came n went, libido was fine (250test/350tren), aggression obviously fine, and pretty side free besides appetite issues and a slight bp raise (138/90 at its worse).....so budget wise, test/tren or a tnt blend is economical , i did 1cc tren 200mg and 1 cc tnt (250test/150tren), worked well...mast is like a bill around here for prop, not cheap

- - - Updated - - -


Yes, Prop and Acetate. I was hoping you would say that, as that's sort of what I'm going for. I think starting at 300 and 300 per week is fine, if I tolerate tren I'll up the dose. I know my source has some very legit stuff so it won't be underdosed.

I'm hoping achilles from AL will help alleviate the issues with the winstrol and the new heart health supp should help with cardio support a ton as well. Those are my two main concerns (I also use aegis with hepatotoxic orals but, yeah, heart+connective tissue on winny can take big beating).

Did you run tren for precontest?

a heart product, that id be interested in for sure......ill be bugging you


Has anyone here run a calorie deficit while running tren?

I'm thinking sometime in December running test+tren approx 300mg and 300mg per week, maybe throw in some winny if i tolerate the tren well.

I would be running at a small deficit to lean up and probably add some stims towards the ends. I wanted dermatherm but... guess not.

I don't see myself getting too much bigger (realistically, it would just be too much of an investment to get bigger and stay that big) so I'm just looking to lean out and maintain my condition as best as possible without steroids (though that doesnt mean on PEDs are out).

1 - no stims with tren trust me.........heart wise, and really you could be dead tired, but once you put the iron in your hands the tren takes over

2 - i did the test/tren calorie deficit this past summer, like burly said you can add a bit of size eating fkn bird seed, prob how it interacts with igf, you will lean out a ton, i dont get the sweats, only heat up when eating, and yeah it does wonders....strength will be there, maybe not a sick increase because lack of cals, but one workout a week or two in and boom the 50g carbs you had all day wont matter as youll be super setting side lats with front raises for 12s with 60lbs, after your pressing

i agree on the size stuff, i cant eat to be 240, just not in me and groceries would be bad

longBallLima
11-05-2012, 12:06 PM
Not a myth. You can fina -> tren, and you can apply transdermally.

between fina pellets and DMSO, isn't that a much safer (as far as bunk) and cheaper option than UGL? am i missing something? lol

EDIT-

the basskiller fella crushes the pellets and mixes it to DMSO. do you need to convert before or just powdering the pellets is enough?

h2s
11-05-2012, 12:09 PM
between fina pellets and DMSO, isn't that a much safer (as far as bunk) and cheaper option than UGL? am i missing something? lol

EDIT-

the basskiller fella crushes the pellets and mixes it to DMSO. do you need to convert before or just powdering the pellets is enough?

I have not done it, but I know most guys link to basskiller, so I would assume he is on point. Others may be able to chime in.

longBallLima
11-05-2012, 12:14 PM
I have not done it, but I know most guys link to basskiller, so I would assume he is on point. Others may be able to chime in.

all that being said, im too much of a wuss to run tren. planning a 1st cycle for the near future, and although tren seems to offer the best results (for my goals), the mental sides sort of scare me. i like being sound of mind lol

burlyman30
11-05-2012, 12:14 PM
I was doing fina pellets transdermally a lonnnnnng time before it became popular (I'm old). It works, for sure. It's also a pain in the butt. However, you can order the fina "legally". If I was to choose between them, though, I'd rather pin as long as I had a trusted UGL.


between fina pellets and DMSO, isn't that a much safer (as far as bunk) and cheaper option than UGL? am i missing something? lol

EDIT-

the basskiller fella crushes the pellets and mixes it to DMSO. do you need to convert before or just powdering the pellets is enough?

longBallLima
11-05-2012, 12:16 PM
I was doing fina pellets transdermally a lonnnnnng time before it became popular (I'm old). It works, for sure. It's also a pain in the butt. However, you can order the fina "legally". If I was to choose between them, though, I'd rather pin as long as I had a trusted UGL.

hah. what makes it a pain if you dont mind my asking? too much carrier, crushing is a pain?

burlyman30
11-05-2012, 12:33 PM
hah. what makes it a pain if you dont mind my asking? too much carrier, crushing is a pain?

It takes time to do, and I'm impatient. lol. I'd rather draw it from a vial in inject. Takes 1 minute or less.

Comparatively, after crushing pellets, which you'll spend a little time doing, you then must chemically remove the binders then separate them prior to transdermal application. DMSO will irritate the skin causing you to rotate application sites, and pretty much give you garlic/fishy breath non-stop for the entire length of your cycle. And you'll need to apply daily, which means cleaning the application site prior to application and then waiting 30 minutes for the site to dry prior to applying clothing or anything else against the skin. It's a lot of time involvement. Also, if you have skin to skin contact with another person, you can still transfer small amounts to them.

longBallLima
11-05-2012, 12:57 PM
It takes time to do, and I'm impatient. lol. I'd rather draw it from a vial in inject. Takes 1 minute or less.

Comparatively, after crushing pellets, which you'll spend a little time doing, you then must chemically remove the binders then separate them prior to transdermal application. DMSO will irritate the skin causing you to rotate application sites, and pretty much give you garlic/fishy breath non-stop for the entire length of your cycle. And you'll need to apply daily, which means cleaning the application site prior to application and then waiting 30 minutes for the site to dry prior to applying clothing or anything else against the skin. It's a lot of time involvement. Also, if you have skin to skin contact with another person, you can still transfer small amounts to them.

yeah, i would imagine transfer as an issue. didn't know you needed to remove the binders (acetone?)

good info, thanks burly!

burlyman30
11-05-2012, 12:59 PM
It's been 20 years, so I'm a little rusty on the details, but I think methanol was the correct solvent for that particular binder.


yeah, i would imagine transfer as an issue. didn't know you needed to remove the binders (acetone?)

good info, thanks burly!

BBG
11-05-2012, 02:34 PM
in my exp, test/tren/mast and test/tren , only difference was a minor lethargy mental fog without the mast that came n went, libido was fine (250test/350tren), aggression obviously fine, and pretty side free besides appetite issues and a slight bp raise (138/90 at its worse).....so budget wise, test/tren or a tnt blend is economical , i did 1cc tren 200mg and 1 cc tnt (250test/150tren), worked well...mast is like a bill around here for prop, not cheap

Good stuff, I won't run the mast then. I pay pretty similar for mast. But I know it's good stuff.



a heart product, that id be interested in for sure......ill be bugging you

It's going to be the best, without a doubt. Just looking at the ingredients, I wish I was running it right now.



1 - no stims with tren trust me.........heart wise, and really you could be dead tired, but once you put the iron in your hands the tren takes over

I see. I'll definitely assess my tolerance and if I can steer clear of BP issues, I'll probably use stims the last 4 weeks of my 8-10 week run with tren. Assuming the tren doesn't destroy me outright.


2 - i did the test/tren calorie deficit this past summer, like burly said you can add a bit of size eating fkn bird seed, prob how it interacts with igf, you will lean out a ton, i dont get the sweats, only heat up when eating, and yeah it does wonders....strength will be there, maybe not a sick increase because lack of cals, but one workout a week or two in and boom the 50g carbs you had all day wont matter as youll be super setting side lats with front raises for 12s with 60lbs, after your pressing

Good stuff. Glad you've run something similar before.


i agree on the size stuff, i cant eat to be 240, just not in me and groceries would be bad

Yep, I think a 9% bf, 190 lb is my ideal. I don't like the idea of weighing less than 200, but I'd rather have 10 lbs less fat than not.

Infamy
11-08-2012, 08:25 AM
I run tren a at 700mg a week with little or no test. I do deficit 5 days a week and refeed at the weekends and I can grow and lose bf.

What's your goal, for all out bulk obviously a calorie deficit isnt great.

I would seriously consider using less test and upping the tren though for a number of reasons.

1. Tren has a great ability to reduce and stop the creating of fat cells. This action is blocked by estrogen.

2. Tren of itself raises estrogen. Testosterone obviously converts to estrogen. Even with a high AI dose I think your estrogen will be too high. I firmly believe high estrogen on tren cycles is responsible for almost all of the common sides. Eg hot flushes = estrogen, anxiety =estrogen, gyno = estrogen.

I use at most 250mg of test every 2 weeks but tend to drop that in the cycle for reasons of bloat and those things above.

3, tren is about the best widely available aas so why have your tren competing with the androgen receptors with something less powerful ie testosterone.

DJM
11-08-2012, 08:32 AM
^look who joined the party!

h2s
11-08-2012, 08:33 AM
I run tren a at 700mg a week with little or no test. I do deficit 5 days a week and refeed at the weekends and I can grow and lose bf.

What's your goal, for all out bulk obviously a calorie deficit isnt great.

I would seriously consider using less test and upping the tren though for a number of reasons.

1. Tren has a great ability to reduce and stop the creating of fat cells. This action is blocked by estrogen.

2. Tren of itself raises estrogen. Testosterone obviously converts to estrogen. Even with a high AI dose I think your estrogen will be too high. I firmly believe high estrogen on tren cycles is responsible for almost all of the common sides. Eg hot flushes = estrogen, anxiety =estrogen, gyno = estrogen.

I use at most 250mg of test every 2 weeks but tend to drop that in the cycle for reasons of bloat and those things above.

3, tren is about the best widely available aas so why have your tren competing with the androgen receptors with something less powerful ie testosterone.

First off:

Thank you for joining.

Now:

How is sexual function when running tren solo? I believe in the high Tren low Test route, but I worry about using no test in regards to sexual function/libido. I had planned on 250mg/wk.

Infamy
11-08-2012, 10:41 AM
Told you if get here eventually! And I've got a username of just infamy here rather than infamy733667886!

I use hcg always so I have some natural test (not much though). But I also tend to use masteron with it so sexual function is great! After all people often mistakenly believe its test which creates the sexual function but it's really dht and since masteron is very similar to dht in effects it works great!

Not sure how sexual function would be without the masteron though. I've not tried.

Infamy
11-08-2012, 10:47 AM
Just to add to my post above, I think with no test and good estrogen control sexual function on tren would probably be good.

Going back to my earlier argument about it being estrogen responsible for many of trens sides rather than tren itself, think about it, the main cause of sexual dysfunction is estrogen. So it does add superficial weight to my argument for keeping estrogen well in check and not using much, If any test with it.

Tren by itself should be able to maintain sexual function as it has been shown to keep prostate size and weight up despite not being affected by 5ar. So I wouldn't have a problem using tren solo (no masteron).

I do use Letro dosed high even on tren no test by the way.

h2s
11-08-2012, 11:08 AM
I should have mentioned that Mast was currently included as well.

AestheticOne
11-08-2012, 12:25 PM
Just to add to my post above, I think with no test and good estrogen control sexual function on tren would probably be good.

Going back to my earlier argument about it being estrogen responsible for many of trens sides rather than tren itself, think about it, the main cause of sexual dysfunction is estrogen. So it does add superficial weight to my argument for keeping estrogen well in check and not using much, If any test with it.

Tren by itself should be able to maintain sexual function as it has been shown to keep prostate size and weight up despite not being affected by 5ar. So I wouldn't have a problem using tren solo (no masteron).

I do use Letro dosed high even on tren no test by the way.

any reason you use letro instead of .5 caber e3d?

DJM
11-08-2012, 01:01 PM
they dont do the same thing, like infamy i think caber is used without being needed, and if estrogen is controlled via letro, how could you have progestinal activity, which would lead to no libido, something no one ever reports when they post they have tren gyno and need caber........bro-lore

caber can be frustrating sex wise, you just cant fkn finish

AestheticOne
11-08-2012, 01:25 PM
they dont do the same thing, like infamy i think caber is used without being needed, and if estrogen is controlled via letro, how could you have progestinal activity, which would lead to no libido, something no one ever reports when they post they have tren gyno and need caber........bro-lore

caber can be frustrating sex wise, you just cant fkn finish
makes complete sense, thanks for the info djm

burlyman30
11-08-2012, 03:25 PM
People confuse progestin with prolactin and end up spreading the word that caber is needed. How long will this bad information go on?!?! lol

BBG
11-08-2012, 04:16 PM
Glad you're here Infamy.

So would you go so far as to say high dose letro + tren at 500mg a week may play out better than test+tren 300/300mg a week? I simply can't justify the cost of the mast.

Infamy
11-09-2012, 02:53 AM
For me, without a doubt the higher tren run will be better. Tren is the only steroid I know that can lose fat (diet depending) and gain muscle at the same time.

Don't forget to use hcg or recovery will be a bitch.

I would be tempted to get maybe 1 vial of test though and, use a real low dose - like 250mg every 2-3 weeks. I think it adds a little something.

BBG
11-09-2012, 05:19 AM
Alrighty so looks like I'll be stacking methyltrienolone, trenbolone and testosterone. All in for the -one.

h2s
11-09-2012, 07:23 AM
For me, without a doubt the higher tren run will be better. Tren is the only steroid I know that can lose fat (diet depending) and gain muscle at the same time.

Don't forget to use hcg or recovery will be a bitch.

I would be tempted to get maybe 1 vial of test though and, use a real low dose - like 250mg every 2-3 weeks. I think it adds a little something.
Just when i thought i had my plan together...what do you like to run the mast at?

BBG
11-09-2012, 07:25 AM
Just when i thought i had my plan together...what do you like to run the mast at?

And hcg. What is your recommendation dosing wise, Infamy?

Should have named the site "Cult of Infamy".

- - - Updated - - -


Alrighty so looks like I'll be stacking methyltrienolone, trenbolone and testosterone. All in for the -one.

Also, the methyl tren is a joke. I'd be looking at just tren + test. Possibly trenbolone at 500mg a week and test at 100 a week (or 200 every 2 weeks).

Infamy
11-09-2012, 11:08 AM
I use 100mg of mast prop eod. Dont get mast e the stuff is crap and doesn't have the same kick at all.

I use 350iu hcg eod. Be prepared to use 0.625 Letro ed from the start and double it after 4/5 weeks. It might seem overkill but believe me it's not. You need to be dam hard on e2 on tren as it rises quick and high.

burlyman30
11-09-2012, 11:15 AM
And hcg. What is your recommendation dosing wise, Infamy?

Should have named the site "Cult of Infamy"

Also, the methyl tren is a joke. I'd be looking at just tren + test. Possibly trenbolone at 500mg a week and test at 100 a week (or 200 every 2 weeks).

Just about crapped my pants when I saw the mTren+Tren combo. lol.

Cult of Infamy... I like it. lol

h2s
11-09-2012, 11:32 AM
I use 100mg of mast prop eod. Dont get mast e the stuff is crap and doesn't have the same kick at all.

I use 350iu hcg eod. Be prepared to use 0.625 Letro ed from the start and double it after 4/5 weeks. It might seem overkill but believe me it's not. You need to be dam hard on e2 on tren as it rises quick and high.

What is the MOA for it, if it isn't the tren directly?

It is always so strange how different peoples views on AIs with Tren is. Matt is the "have an AI on hand, but you should be fine" type, while you are very strict on using the letro right off the bat. Not saying either one is right, just showing what a pain in the ass the compound can be.

h2s
11-09-2012, 11:36 AM
Just about crapped my pants when I saw the mTren+Tren combo. lol.

I nearly did the same, just figured he was going balls to the wall, lol.

burlyman30
11-09-2012, 11:49 AM
What is the MOA for it, if it isn't the tren directly?

It is always so strange how different peoples views on AIs with Tren is. Matt is the "have an AI on hand, but you should be fine" type, while you are very strict on using the letro right off the bat. Not saying either one is right, just showing what a pain in the ass the compound can be.

Some guys are lucky, and gyno isn't much of a problem on tren. I think much of what it comes down to is dosage tolerance. I would be gyno free if I used tren 150mg/week. But anything 300 and up will be a problem for me. Other guys are fine at much higher doses. Same with side from other compounds.

Anadrol was a dream for me between 50 and 100mg, but splitting headaches and bloody noses came at 150. I've heard of other guys who have used 300mg of Anadrol and it works great for them, where it would probably given me an aneurism.

There is a "tipping point" when the bad sides begin to spill over, and then you either have to decide to fight the sides with another compound, or lower the dosage and decide if that lower dosage is enough to give you the effects you desire.

Infamy
11-09-2012, 12:27 PM
What is the MOA for it, if it isn't the tren directly?

It is always so strange how different peoples views on AIs with Tren is. Matt is the "have an AI on hand, but you should be fine" type, while you are very strict on using the letro right off the bat. Not saying either one is right, just showing what a pain in the ass the compound can be.

Not totally sure. Possibly fat -> estrone -> estradiol, possibly upregulating aromatase. Either way there was a study showing a direct relationship between tren dose and estrogen increase. I can't post the study as in on iPhone.

The estrogen is definitely dose dependant which is probably why burly gets no gyno at low doses.

And burly, you used 150mg a day of anadrol?!! You the man!

I'm liking the cult by the way!

h2s
11-09-2012, 12:38 PM
Not totally sure. Possibly fat -> estrone -> estradiol, possibly upregulating aromatase. Either way there was a study showing a direct relationship between tren dose and estrogen increase. I can't post the study as in on iPhone.

The estrogen is definitely dose dependant which is probably why burly gets no gyno at low doses.

And burly, you used 150mg a day of anadrol?!! You the man!

I'm liking the cult by the way!

Interesting, Ill probably look for it this weekend.

DJM
11-09-2012, 12:54 PM
What is the MOA for it, if it isn't the tren directly?

It is always so strange how different peoples views on AIs with Tren is. Matt is the "have an AI on hand, but you should be fine" type, while you are very strict on using the letro right off the bat. Not saying either one is right, just showing what a pain in the ass the compound can be.

im with infamy, letro and forget about it.....only ran 350mg, but its enough, letro e3d 1.25mg.....not even a tingle (i know you like the tingle btw so sorry), test was 250........pretty smooth ride, if anything id up the tren 100mg next time

USN HM 350Z
11-09-2012, 01:02 PM
so glad this thread is going. I get home in dec and plan to cut for 3 months and then run a 4 month Test/Tren/Mast cycle. Now I can follow and get all the issues ironed out early.

h2s
11-09-2012, 01:09 PM
im with infamy, letro and forget about it.....only ran 350mg, but its enough, letro e3d 1.25mg.....not even a tingle (i know you like the tingle btw so sorry), test was 250........pretty smooth ride, if anything id up the tren 100mg next time


Haha

burlyman30
11-09-2012, 02:03 PM
Not totally sure. Possibly fat -> estrone -> estradiol, possibly upregulating aromatase. Either way there was a study showing a direct relationship between tren dose and estrogen increase. I can't post the study as in on iPhone.

The estrogen is definitely dose dependant which is probably why burly gets no gyno at low doses.

And burly, you used 150mg a day of anadrol?!! You the man!



First time I used it, I did a week at 50, 2 weeks at 100, then a week at 150 when I thought my head was going to literally explode but I (stupidly) toughed it out and then went back to 100 for the rest of the cycle until tapering down (everybody tapered down in the 80s).

- - - Updated - - -


Haha

x2. Nicely played, D.

DJM
11-09-2012, 02:16 PM
so glad this thread is going. I get home in dec and plan to cut for 3 months and then run a 4 month Test/Tren/Mast cycle. Now I can follow and get all the issues ironed out early.

you should stay off till 2015, and let some of us catch up

burlyman30
11-09-2012, 02:32 PM
you should stay off till 2015, and let some of us catch up

If you spent more time working out in the gym, and less time looking at your bad self in the mirror, you wouldn't be so far behind.

DJM
11-09-2012, 03:39 PM
If you spent more time working out in the gym, and less time looking at your bad self in the mirror, you wouldn't be so far behind.

hahahahh jokes burlyman, i repsect you, and will consider your advises, REPS! people are actually amazed and stare at my intense workouts,so intense, i literally sweat much!!! i do whole body olympic inspired by the great
anatoli zurechekmov, so beautiful physique, id would oral him...i will train extremely hard with zero hydration to prepare for my tren/mtren/deca cycle that bbg advises, and then will impress you bro

h2s
11-09-2012, 03:42 PM
hahahahh jokes burlyman, i repsect you, and will consider your advises, REPS! people are actually amazed and stare at my intense workouts,so intense, i literally sweat much!!! i do whole body olympic inspired by the great
anatoli zurechekmov, so beautiful physique, id would oral him...i will train extremely hard with zero hydration to prepare for my tren/mtren/deca cycle that bbg advises, and then will impress you bro

...and everyone stares at me for laughing at work.

burlyman30
11-09-2012, 05:38 PM
...and everyone stares at me for laughing at work.

I think he just channelled The Great Keagle Spirit.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

BBG
11-09-2012, 05:57 PM
hahahahh jokes burlyman, i repsect you, and will consider your advises, REPS! people are actually amazed and stare at my intense workouts,so intense, i literally sweat much!!! i do whole body olympic inspired by the great
anatoli zurechekmov, so beautiful physique, id would oral him...i will train extremely hard with zero hydration to prepare for my tren/mtren/deca cycle that bbg advises, and then will impress you bro

I only recommend tren, mtren and deca for ippy. He's too hardcore for anything else.

DJM
11-09-2012, 06:20 PM
^^^sd is fkn candy as he says

BBG
11-09-2012, 06:28 PM
^^^sd is fkn candy as he says

I just realized... roguevampire is ippats from the future.

h2s
11-09-2012, 07:04 PM
I just realized... roguevampire is ippats from the future.

Mind fucking Blown.

Infamy
11-10-2012, 04:00 AM
First time I used it, I did a week at 50, 2 weeks at 100, then a week at 150 when I thought my head was going to literally explode but I (stupidly) toughed it out and then went back to 100 for the rest of the cycle until tapering down (everybody tapered down in the 80s).

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You know it's interesting you say that because recently i've been looking at the liver toxicity of the "standard" orals, winstol, anavar, anadrol, dbol etc and found something unexpected.

My interest started after I did 2 weeks of winstrol at 80mg a day. I had my liver function done a week or so after finishing it. I used no liver support between finishing it and the liver function test. The result I was fully expecting was one of a large increase in the transaminases and a real messed up liver function. It was, after all 80mg of what many of the "bro" websites claim to be extremely hepatotoxic steroid. Instead, my liver enzymes were barely above the upper limit of normal (I think it was 58 with the Upper limit of normal being 50). Not only that but I couldnt be 100% sure that the winstrol even caused all of that as I had been using tren A and masteron. Both of which may in some people raise liver enzymes slightly. To avoid doubt, the winstrol was definitely legit!!!

So I did some research. It seems there are almost no reported cases of liver damage or jaundice from winstrol. There was one of a man who had an extreme sensitivity to it but I think he can be discounted as he is definitely the exception rather than the rule.

There was also one of a powerlifter injecting 125mg twice a week for one month. But im inclined to have my doubts over this one due to the fact that the report says he had an "exceptionally muscular physique". Winstrol may be good but it doesnt do that for you so I have reason to believe he takes other things too so I take this with a pinch of salt. Especially when there are so few other reports which show similar results. If that damage was standard after that dose for that long, I would have expected my liver function tests to be terrible. They werent. They were almost normal.

There are also cases of people being prescribed winstrol at 5-10mg a day for years without even causing an increase in liver function tests!! Now I know that dose is well below the BBing dose but even so it's interesting.

Furthermore, bear in mind that winstrol has been around and has been abused by bodybuilders for decades so it wouldnt be unexpected to see some sort of reports of liver damage from it. But I couldnt find any which directly related to the winstrol use. There was one of a BBer who did have jaundice from using winstrol but then you cant blame the winstrol solely as he was using dbol at the same time at large doses.

In fact the only evidence I found of real liver damage was when used on liver cells at a dose of 400 times the therapeutic dose which caused large scale damage. But, 400 times the therapeutic dose would be over 200mg a day so again, not really relevant to bbing unless you are trying to kill yourself.

So I went one step further and looked for halotestin (the one which most "bro" sites claim is the most toxic oral ever and if you take it you will die etc etc). Again, very little reports of liver damage. There were a couple but not many considering this has been used and abused for decades. The one I did see was of an old lady prescribed it for over 2 years and died of liver failure but given the length of time she took it for and her age and decreased capacity for removing toxins by the liver, this doesnt translate well to normal bbing usage.

Now compare this to modern designer steroids like superdrol. A quick google search gives you quite a few examples of liver damage. Bear in mind sdrol is probably only 10 years old too!

Now im not trying to say that the traditional orals are safe to take a large doses for life. Undoubtedly if you take them high enough for long enough you will get liver damage, thats a fact. But it seems that some of the traditional ones really arent that liver toxic - especially when compared to the new stuff today which is just crazy toxic (methyl sten, sdrol diendione etc etc). This seems to contradict everything you read on steroid websites I know but dont just take my word for it, take a look for yourself.

Sorry for the thread jack but seemed relevant after burly's post.

Jelisej
11-11-2012, 07:18 PM
I use 100mg of mast prop eod. Dont get mast e the stuff is crap and doesn't have the same kick at all.

I use 350iu hcg eod. Be prepared to use 0.625 Letro ed from the start and double it after 4/5 weeks. It might seem overkill but believe me it's not. You need to be dam hard on e2 on tren as it rises quick and high.

I tought that thats more-less same thing, difference being ester?
What is difference in "kick"?
How would results compare?
Cheers!

Infamy
11-12-2012, 04:43 AM
It's the same steroid yes. Just different ester but that does make a difference IMO.

My effects with mast e were so so. But drostanolone prop was much better. I felt an increase in libido and sexual function about 8 hours or so after the inject. I never got that with the enanthate ester.

Drostanolone prop gives me better sexual fuction (like a Viagra type effect). It gives me a perceived lowering of body fat. I say perceived as I am cautious that the improvements in bf seen in the mirror are not necessarily a loss of bf but more a loss of some subcutaneous water. Strong androgens in my experience have a type of diuretic effect (and I think some confuse that with fat loss). Either way I look better in the mirror. Slight strength increase and an improvement in mood. I think tren solo can make you more cynical and selfish but the masteron counteracts that and puts me back to normal mood wise (I think there was something I read about androgens being able to regulate seratonin receptors so maybe that's the mechanism).

I won't lie, masteron won't make you huge but it does give some nice lean quality muscle gains. I just use it for its supplementary effects which makes any steroid cycle more pleasant both mentally and aesthetically.

Going back to masteron e, I didn't really see or feel any of the above benefits on masteron e. it was legit stuff but just didn't give the same benefits. Hence why I'd never use masteron e.

The other great thing is that, aside from the usual steroid side effects (stopping natural test production, lipid profile worsening etc) it hasn't got any to speak of. I get a very slight increase in liver enzymes (not sure if that's the masteron or tren though), but I am probably the exception in that.

It does depend on what type of cycle you want to run though. On an all out bulk with test, it'd probably be a waste. On a cut with calorie deficit though it adds something.

I think masteron is one of those steroids which may seem like a luxury on paper but after you run it, you'll know why so many vets like to use it with their cycles. It really is one of my favourite steroids.

Izzetmaster
11-12-2012, 09:56 AM
hahahahh jokes burlyman, i repsect you, and will consider your advises, REPS! people are actually amazed and stare at my intense workouts,so intense, i literally sweat much!!! i do whole body olympic inspired by the great
anatoli zurechekmov, so beautiful physique, id would oral him...i will train extremely hard with zero hydration to prepare for my tren/mtren/deca cycle that bbg advises, and then will impress you bro

I just about pissed myself from laughter. Oh, it's good to see nothing has changed.

Jelisej
11-12-2012, 07:08 PM
It's the same steroid yes. Just different ester but that does make a difference IMO.

My effects with mast e were so so. But drostanolone prop was much better. I felt an increase in libido and sexual function about 8 hours or so after the inject. I never got that with the enanthate ester.

Drostanolone prop gives me better sexual fuction (like a Viagra type effect). It gives me a perceived lowering of body fat. I say perceived as I am cautious that the improvements in bf seen in the mirror are not necessarily a loss of bf but more a loss of some subcutaneous water. Strong androgens in my experience have a type of diuretic effect (and I think some confuse that with fat loss). Either way I look better in the mirror. Slight strength increase and an improvement in mood. I think tren solo can make you more cynical and selfish but the masteron counteracts that and puts me back to normal mood wise (I think there was something I read about androgens being able to regulate seratonin receptors so maybe that's the mechanism).

I won't lie, masteron won't make you huge but it does give some nice lean quality muscle gains. I just use it for its supplementary effects which makes any steroid cycle more pleasant both mentally and aesthetically.

Going back to masteron e, I didn't really see or feel any of the above benefits on masteron e. it was legit stuff but just didn't give the same benefits. Hence why I'd never use masteron e.

The other great thing is that, aside from the usual steroid side effects (stopping natural test production, lipid profile worsening etc) it hasn't got any to speak of. I get a very slight increase in liver enzymes (not sure if that's the masteron or tren though), but I am probably the exception in that.

It does depend on what type of cycle you want to run though. On an all out bulk with test, it'd probably be a waste. On a cut with calorie deficit though it adds something.

I think masteron is one of those steroids which may seem like a luxury on paper but after you run it, you'll know why so many vets like to use it with their cycles. It really is one of my favourite steroids.

I think you may be fast metabolizer or how else to name it- meaning you need more frequent injections/doses.

h2s
11-12-2012, 07:28 PM
I think you may be fast metabolizer or how else to name it- meaning you need more frequent injections/doses.

Are you saying that in terms of why mast e doesnt hit hm the same way? I dont know if i agree. If that were true he would notice it with any enanthate ester, but he hasnt mentioned that previously. I actually have heard similar before with masteron specifically, i am more curious if the body just responds better to it in a pulastile manner. Because really all esters "should" be equal given appropriate administration.

Jelisej
11-12-2012, 07:33 PM
Are you saying that in terms of why mast e doesnt hit hm the same way? I dont know if i agree. If that were true he would notice it with any enanthate ester, but he hasnt mentioned that previously. I actually have heard similar before with masteron specifically, i am more curious if the body just responds better to it in a pulastile manner. Because really all esters "should" be equal given appropriate administration.

I'm guess that short esters work better for him, and more frequent doses are more suitable for him (as it is for any fast metabolizers.
As I said- I'm guessing, I like to guess things- just to see if I "connect things right". It is easy to be general after the battle.

h2s
11-12-2012, 07:36 PM
I'm guess that short esters work better for him, and more frequent doses are more suitable for him (as it is for any fast metabolizers.
As I said- I'm guessing, I like to guess things- just to see if I "connect things right". It is easy to be general after the battle.

Oh it could be, I am never one to attack the hypothesis, just giving food for thought.

DJM
11-12-2012, 07:39 PM
from guys that use, short esthers always seem to be a bit better than their long esthered counterparts, npp, tren ace, mast prop ect.....

Jelisej
11-12-2012, 07:42 PM
from guys that use, short esthers always seem to be a bit better than their long esthered counterparts, npp, tren ace, mast prop ect.....

Yes, but difference is that "slow metabolisers" are doing ok with long esters and they can enjoy convinience of less frequent injections, while "fast metabolizers" will have far less effect.
Again, this is bit mixture of science and broscience, thats why I would not post this in TRT section, even though this idea comes from that side.

Infamy
11-13-2012, 06:38 AM
I've never heard of slow or fast metabolisers. But if I'm anything I think I'm more likley to be slow. I'm an old man at age 35 and I don't think my liver is made of steel for sure!

I think it's more to do with short esters give a bigger peak on a mg for mg basis (even ignoring water weight). So if you inject short esters you get a higher blood level for the same steroid than the longer ester.

Also the shorter esters give more steroid per 100mg.

There may be other reasons too but in my experience, shorter esters = better. They may be more inconvenient but they kick in quicker and harder than their longer ester counterparts and they give me better results. For example tren a is better than tren e, mast p is better than mast e.

I don't think im alone in this though. Just read a few boards of the vets or guys who compete and they almost always use shorter esters. the longer esters are used by newbies and guys who can't comit to ed or eod injects.

Jelisej
11-13-2012, 07:04 AM
I've never heard of slow or fast metabolisers. But if I'm anything I think I'm more likley to be slow. I'm an old man at age 35 and I don't think my liver is made of steel for sure!

I think it's more to do with short esters give a bigger peak on a mg for mg basis (even ignoring water weight). So if you inject short esters you get a higher blood level for the same steroid than the longer ester.

Also the shorter esters give more steroid per 100mg.

There may be other reasons too but in my experience, shorter esters = better. They may be more inconvenient but they kick in quicker and harder than their longer ester counterparts and they give me better results. For example tren a is better than tren e, mast p is better than mast e.

I don't think im alone in this though. Just read a few boards of the vets or guys who compete and they almost always use shorter esters. the longer esters are used by newbies and guys who can't comit to ed or eod injects.

Well, as for slow-fast metabolisers its not the age its how body proccess hormones, for example ectomorph as he ages and his hormones go down will not be ectomorph anymore- but if he goes to TRT he will became ectomorph again.
Ectomorphs need more "juice" to grow, and more frequent shots, so I think that majority of ectos are fast metabolisers.
What happens with "fast metaboliser" is that level of injected hormone peaks rather quickly and then goes low- for example on testosterone injections "fast metaboliser" would have a high level on day 1 and day 2 but on day 3 would aprobably be low- with "slow metaboliser" it would not go down that quickly.
I dont say that short esters are not bit more effective, just that for slow-metabolisers it would make far less difference if it short or long ester.

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