How to grow and go easy on the hair?

[Rayjay]

Ok guys i could use a little help. I'm new to injectables now as I was just started on TRT for low T. I was going to stick with Test and take finasteride or dutasteride to stop hair loss, but have been strongly advised against it and don't want to go that route anymore.

EQ looks like a fairly hair-friendly compound, yes?
Would it be a bad idea to go with a TRT/cruise dose of 250mg/week Test and occasionally blast with EQ at maybe 500mg/week? Wouldn't that be easier on the hairline than blasting Test?

And with nandrolone being prescribed to women and children, could I use it at the lower dose end of the spectrum without destroying my hairline? I've always been attracted to Deca or NPP due to all the injuries I'm carrying from my days of gymnastics and motocross.
I would keep this at a cruise dose of 100-200mg/week

I appreciate any input or advise on this as I'm in need of some edumacation. I didn't know I was MPB prone because I had low T for so many years!

[WHC]

This probably isn't what you want to hear, but the best advice I can give you is to just stop caring about keeping it. For a number of years I worried about my hairline receding, and I finally stopped giving a shit. It was liberating.

[BBG]

Tocotrienols, nizoral shampoo and a conditioner that helps replenish hydration to your hair so it isn't dry and brittle from the nizoral.

[Rayjay]

Tocotrienols, nizoral shampoo and a conditioner that helps replenish hydration to your hair so it isn't dry and brittle from the nizoral.

^^k, I am doing these. Seems to help a bit, but I'm definitely still thinning and shedding some. Do you guys know where to buy Tocotrienols now that PP is gone? I'm almost out of Toco-8

[USN HM 350Z]

wicked supplements. They are a vendor on here. Look for a discount code.

Res100 TocoCaps (http://www.res100.com/tococaps/)

[USN HM 350Z]

As for the EQ. I am currently on a cycle and 13 weeks in and If you are not willing to run 800mg/week don't bother with it. At 400mg/week I was getting excellent cardio benefits, but nothing else.

I will probably cycle on and off at 400mg in the future for cardio endurance.

Also, I would say if you are going to run Deca, do it at 300mg.

What are your stats?

[Rayjay]

28, 5'8" 197lbs. 16%bf. and I feel like that's not terrible considering I have had low T for 6 years, starting at 250 when I was only 22 then and continuing down this year when I stupidly thought PH's were the answer.

Lifted hard through and after high school, couldn't lift at all for a few years due to surgeries and injury. Been lifting hard again for several years now.

I like cycling (road bike) and swimming but I don't know how I would handle the thickening of the blood from EQ. Not sure how to know when it's getting too thick either.

[pman42]

on the old forum "doc dan" had something about mixing zinc and saw palmetto. also there are other topicals, like minoxidil. nizoral is supposed to clean out sebum from the scalp and possibly inhibit DHT locally. you might want to join a hairloss forum-- maybe you can use the 5-AR inhibitors topically. i don't know

[burlyman30]

If you wanted to add something as an extra "kick" to your TRT, deca at 150-200/wk will add a bit of healing and anabolism and 300 would be substantially more noticeable. Double that for EQ and divide in half for Tren. In my experience, while deca is helpful for joints and connective tissue, tren will beat it for healing of injuries even at the low dose I recommended.

My recommendation would be to stay on your TRT dose and add one of the above compounds as suggested vs. blasting test. It will give you a good feel for what they can do for you while keeping your T levels in a range that will not alarm the doc. It will be better for the hairline, too.

As far as hairloss, I don't hear people complain about any of the above compounds for this reason.

[Rayjay]

Do endo's ever test for other anabolics like Deca? I hadn't really considered that, only making sure my T is in range

[O.N.]

^^k, I am doing these. Seems to help a bit, but I'm definitely still thinning and shedding some. Do you guys know where to buy Tocotrienols now that PP is gone? I'm almost out of Toco-8

Wicked Supplements - Res100 - Toco Caps (http://www.onlinenutrition.com.au/brands/Wicked-Supplements.html) use code SS10 to get 10% off

[burlyman30]

Do endo's ever test for other anabolics like Deca? I hadn't really considered that, only making sure my T is in range

No, they'll never test for that. I'm on TRT also, and right now I don't see when I'd even have a chance to "blast"... they have me in every 2-3 months for testing right now. Maybe when my endo is certain all is perfect they will go every 6 months... not sure. One thing to keep in mind, all the anabolic mentioned will affect your RBC/hemoglobin counts and you may end up giving blood regularly to compensate for this.

[pman42]

people have mentioned giving blood, and i wonder what this does to the person receiving it. all those hormones. can't be good

[burlyman30]

people have mentioned giving blood, and i wonder what this does to the person receiving it. all those hormones. can't be good

As far as TRT goes, the Red Cross allows donation from people on TRT. As for the other compounds, I cannot say with certainty, but I cannot imagine the amount contained in a single pint of blood would be a significant amount. One pint is 10% of what the human body holds, so it's 10% added to the recipients' 90%. Maybe USN HM 350Z can chime in, since he's in the medical field.

[pman42]

the red cross allows donations from people on TRT, but what about the guys who are blasting on 10x that amount and using blood donation to get rid of the extra RBCs? i have heard that discussion on this board. it just seems to me a bit shady, i mean say all that blood went to a child. i don't think it'd kill them but it just seems like a very self-centered approach to blood donation, which is supposed to be out of the good of one's heart but in this case done for selfish reasons with possible repercussions (there surely must be medical conditions out there that an infusion of androgens would aggravate)

[weekend]

I feel like donating blood on cycle is fine.. Only a small amount of blood is taken and so that's only a fraction of your blood concentration at one time being added to their body.. So wont it be metabolized quickly having almost no effect, considering you needed your whole blood concentration consistently for weeks to get any effect haha

[h2s]

I feel like donating blood on cycle is fine.. Only a small amount of blood is taken and so that's only a fraction of your blood concentration at one time being added to their body.. So wont it be metabolized quickly having almost no effect, considering you needed your whole blood concentration consistently for weeks to get any effect haha

Yeah there isn't much need to worry, the amount present in the blood taken would be fairly minimal, and wouldn't cause adverse effect.

[burlyman30]

the red cross allows donations from people on TRT, but what about the guys who are blasting on 10x that amount and using blood donation to get rid of the extra RBCs? i have heard that discussion on this board. it just seems to me a bit shady, i mean say all that blood went to a child. i don't think it'd kill them but it just seems like a very self-centered approach to blood donation, which is supposed to be out of the good of one's heart but in this case done for selfish reasons with possible repercussions (there surely must be medical conditions out there that an infusion of androgens would aggravate)

This is a worthwhile topic to investigate, I think. I have a blood donation coming up. I think I will ask someone at the Red Cross about this. Wondering if they have a blood filtration process to remove additional impurities/metabolites that do not belong.

[Freepressright]

Personally, I would not put the energy into obsessing over your hairline. If it's going to happen to you someday, it's going to happen. I know lots of guys with shaved heads that get plenty of action and attention from the ladies. I'm glad to see you didn't castrate yourself with finasteride or its sister compound, though. Sounds like the nizoral and tocotrienols might be your best bet.

[JM1000]

I was using a small amout of proscar ED while on cycle and still am now. It did great for me but some people get very bad libido loss. Maybe you could ask your doctor for a prescript, anyways good luck with that!

[Rayjay]

Yeah there isn't much need to worry, the amount present in the blood taken would be fairly minimal, and wouldn't cause adverse effect.

I thought it was in times of injury that anabolics were prescribed to women and children anyways, such as accident or burns, etc. At such a low concentration I can't imagine it having much effect, but if anything, maybe it could slightly improve their healing process from whatever required the use of a blood transfusion...?

[Freepressright]

I was using a small amout of proscar ED while on cycle and still am now. It did great for me but some people get very bad libido loss. Maybe you could ask your doctor for a prescript, anyways good luck with that!

I wouldn't. The risk isn't worth it.

You're among the lucky minority who didn't suffer irreparable damage. Even short-term use has demonstrated dangers. It isn't worth playing around with.

DHT is an important neurosteroid. More importantly, it's the very hormone that makes you male. It's why you have a deep voice, it's why you have body hair -- every adult 'male' element of you can be traced back in some way to DHT.

Suppressing DHT at the 5ar level as a means of saving hair is retarded. I liken it to cutting off your leg because of back pain.

And the emerging research on prostate issues is finding low testosterone and high estrogen are to blame, not high DHT.

OP, I ask again, what's more important to you, the prospect of losing some hair or the threat of losing your manhood?

I'm not trying to be an ass with my direct-to-the-point demeanor. I've seen the damage to a friend first hand. You want no part of it, trust me.

[olddawg]

issue is not the threat of losing your hair, only losing your hair sooner

[Fat Bill Dwyer]

One word: Comb-over.

It shows determination, and a stubborn unwillingness to quit, women admire that.

[longBallLima]

honestly, i dont even know why man have hair. to me its just something else to shave every 2 weeks. i had long hair a life ago and shaving that shit off was liberating.

that being said, i know a bunch of you are metros you dam queeeahs

[JM1000]

FPR, i understand what you are saying and agree with you, weird that the doc prescribed this then? Are you sure it is dangerous in very small doses, i was taking 1/6 of a pill a day wich is less then 1mg a day.. Just wondering

[DJM]

issue is not the threat of losing your hair, only losing your hair sooner

hair is over rated

[longBallLima]

FPR, i understand what you are saying and agree with you, weird that the doc prescribed this then? Are you sure it is dangerous in very small doses, i was taking 1/6 of a pill a day wich is less then 1mg a day.. Just wondering

docs prescribe useless and dangerous shit all the time. this one time, i had some annoying back pain and the motherfucker prescribed me vicodin, just cuz... i think my wife may have been been scripted vicodin for some shoulder pain too. we never filled it and i was like...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zvOy19gwAA

[Freepressright]

FPR, i understand what you are saying and agree with you, weird that the doc prescribed this then? Are you sure it is dangerous in very small doses, i was taking 1/6 of a pill a day wich is less then 1mg a day.. Just wondering

Yes, I'm absolutely certain. And like another poster mentioned, doctors regularly prescribe dangerous compounds. Just look at the dangers statin drugs present to the liver, muscle tissue, neurons and the brain -- yet they're some of the most prescribed drugs out there. Pain meds are another class of drugs widely prescribed.

Hundreds of thousands of people die each year from the correct use of prescription drugs. It happens.

Any 5-alpha reductase inhibitor has the propensity to cause you permanent issues, even at low doses. You're rolling the dice by taking them.

Take an hour or so and do some reading here: PROPECIAHELP: Persistent Finasteride Propecia Proscar side effects info forum (http://www.propeciahelp.com)

This site is the best compilation I can direct you to with regards to exposing you to the dangers of 5AR inhibitors.

[DJM]

jm1000, whats your dad do again? lol

[JM1000]

FPR , reading done, serious shit right there... Willdef go for another alternative although I dont even really care about the hair anymore lol...

DJ, he laughed at my face when I talked to him about my concerns :(

- - - Updated - - -

He's been on that for about 5 years without a side, i guess he's just lucky, but i told him to read on the sides..

[Cdsnuts]

The sides for alot of guys sneak up on them. It starts out as just not feeling yourself....you think you're having an off day, or that you just didn't get enough sleep, etc. You slowly lose interest in sex. You slowly start to get a creeping anxiety that was never there before, your personality changes. You become more childlike. I liken it to sand through an hour glass. Little by little, you start losing yourself. Until weeks or months, or depending on your make up, years go by and you're like WTF. You become a shadow of your former self. A shell of a man.

Not like you know me from any other dude, but take my advice and stay away from that fuckin poison. I shared that propecia site with the PP group a few years back (Thanks FPR for continuing to spread the word). I'm currently in litigation as a member of a class action lawsuit against Merck.

You really want to read some horror stories, my user name is the same on that site. I'm no longer an active member on those forums because after 8 long, debilitating and humiliating years, I'm back to 100%. It was a friggin horror. Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Losing PP really hit me hard because it was with that companies products and the help from the knowledgeable dudes on that site that I slowly recovered myself. Not saying it wouldn't have happened with other products, just that I found PP first and went from there. I had many long convo's with Eric going back to 08 and 09 that started my recovery process.

Bottom line, poison is poison no matter how small the dose. Just do yourself a favor and stay away. Shaving my head was one of the most freeing things I've ever done.

[Rayjay]

The sides for alot of guys sneak up on them. It starts out as just not feeling yourself....you think you're having an off day, or that you just didn't get enough sleep, etc. You slowly lose interest in sex. You slowly start to get a creeping anxiety that was never there before, your personality changes. You become more childlike. I liken it to sand through an hour glass. Little by little, you start losing yourself. Until weeks or months, or depending on your make up, years go by and you're like WTF. You become a shadow of your former self. A shell of a man.

Not like you know me from any other dude, but take my advice and stay away from that fuckin poison. I shared that propecia site with the PP group a few years back (Thanks FPR for continuing to spread the word). I'm currently in litigation as a member of a class action lawsuit against Merck.

You really want to read some horror stories, my user name is the same on that site. I'm no longer an active member on those forums because after 8 long, debilitating and humiliating years, I'm back to 100%. It was a friggin horror. Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Losing PP really hit me hard because it was with that companies products and the help from the knowledgeable dudes on that site that I slowly recovered myself. Not saying it wouldn't have happened with other products, just that I found PP first and went from there. I had many long convo's with Eric going back to 08 and 09 that started my recovery process.

Bottom line, poison is poison no matter how small the dose. Just do yourself a favor and stay away. Shaving my head was one of the most freeing things I've ever done.

I have to ask, as terrible as it was, can/did you find relief using DHT steroids like Masteron??? You mention PP products, and I assume that you got a DHT boost from it... I guess the point is not to eliminate DHT in the first place, but can DHT replacement work for these issues? Like TRT, but with Mast, proviron, etc?

Edit: NO I'm not saying I want to try it and rely on replacing with steroids if it turned out badly. I'm just trying to understand this a little better, and I'm curious if there are effective ways to treat it.

[DJM]

The sides for alot of guys sneak up on them. It starts out as just not feeling yourself....you think you're having an off day, or that you just didn't get enough sleep, etc. You slowly lose interest in sex. You slowly start to get a creeping anxiety that was never there before, your personality changes. You become more childlike. I liken it to sand through an hour glass. Little by little, you start losing yourself. Until weeks or months, or depending on your make up, years go by and you're like WTF. You become a shadow of your former self. A shell of a man.

Not like you know me from any other dude, but take my advice and stay away from that fuckin poison. I shared that propecia site with the PP group a few years back (Thanks FPR for continuing to spread the word). I'm currently in litigation as a member of a class action lawsuit against Merck.

You really want to read some horror stories, my user name is the same on that site. I'm no longer an active member on those forums because after 8 long, debilitating and humiliating years, I'm back to 100%. It was a friggin horror. Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Losing PP really hit me hard because it was with that companies products and the help from the knowledgeable dudes on that site that I slowly recovered myself. Not saying it wouldn't have happened with other products, just that I found PP first and went from there. I had many long convo's with Eric going back to 08 and 09 that started my recovery process.

Bottom line, poison is poison no matter how small the dose. Just do yourself a favor and stay away. Shaving my head was one of the most freeing things I've ever done.

good to ser you here and how youve overcome
good luck vs merck

[Cdsnuts]

I have to ask, as terrible as it was, can/did you find relief using DHT steroids like Masteron??? You mention PP products, and I assume that you got a DHT boost from it... I guess the point is not to eliminate DHT in the first place, but can DHT replacement work for these issues? Like TRT, but with Mast, proviron, etc?

Edit: NO I'm not saying I want to try it and rely on replacing with steroids if it turned out badly. I'm just trying to understand this a little better, and I'm curious if there are effective ways to treat it.

It's a complicated issue with not one straight forward answer. Your genetic make up has a HUGE part in the way you respond. The issue isn't just DHT related although that's a huge part of it. It's ALL 5-arII reduced steriods. The most important one being allopregnanolone. This potent neurosteroid is natures Xanax. It's reduced by the 5arII enzyme (the enzyme that propecia blocks...or destroys completely...the verdicts still out on that.) from pregnanolone. Without it, your a goddamn wreck. Can't sleep, completely anxious, can't think straight, cant focus....serenity is no longer a part of your existence. Horrific is the only way to describe it. We had guys on the site off themselves because of the state they were left in. Almost unbearable. For many, it IS unbearable.

So yeah, even though you can replace the DHT and test, It's not the same when your nerves are firing crazy because of lack of inhibition from Gaba-A. All the hormones in the world aren't gonna give you a woody if your nerves are in fight or flight mode. You NEED to be relaxed to be horny.(allopregnanolone modulates the gaba receptor to make it work/connect more efficiently to gaba.....think alcohol. Alcohol increases allopreg making Gaba inhibition more pronounced, thus the relaxing effect.)

Those are the main two, but there are more, smaller neurosteroids that are reduced by 5arII as well. You can't possibly replace all that is removed by inhibiting that enzyme. You just can't.

[Cdsnuts]

good to ser you here and how youve overcome
good luck vs merck

Thanks. I'm not holding my breath. it's been almost two years thus far. You know how deep those pharmaceutical company pockets are. They're never gonna give me back the time I lost, and I'm not one to sue, but a couple smart guys at the propecia site got it goin and if I can get something outta my misery caused by them, I will.

[O_RYAN_007]

Thanks. I'm not holding my breath. it's been almost two years thus far. You know how deep those pharmaceutical company pockets are. They're never gonna give me back the time I lost, and I'm not one to sue, but a couple smart guys at the propecia site got it goin and if I can get something outta my misery caused by them, I will.

Keep up the fight my man, and I'm glad you found your way over to Swolesource!

- - - Updated - - -


Tocotrienols, nizoral shampoo and a conditioner that helps replenish hydration to your hair so it isn't dry and brittle from the nizoral.

I do this, and its def helped tremendously! I bought like 14 toco-8 and 6 bottles of nizoral 2% keto... and its done a great trick!

[JM1000]

Cd, glad you are getting better, I would never had noticed I guess. I had been taking 1mg a day for about 6 months. Luckily I didn't get any sides from it but from here on out I will stop using it. Thanks for the heads up! and all the best for you...

[Rayjay]

It's a complicated issue with not one straight forward answer. Your genetic make up has a HUGE part in the way you respond. The issue isn't just DHT related although that's a huge part of it. It's ALL 5-arII reduced steriods. The most important one being allopregnanolone. This potent neurosteroid is natures Xanax. It's reduced by the 5arII enzyme (the enzyme that propecia blocks...or destroys completely...the verdicts still out on that.) from pregnanolone. Without it, your a goddamn wreck. Can't sleep, completely anxious, can't think straight, cant focus....serenity is no longer a part of your existence. Horrific is the only way to describe it. We had guys on the site off themselves because of the state they were left in. Almost unbearable. For many, it IS unbearable.

So yeah, even though you can replace the DHT and test, It's not the same when your nerves are firing crazy because of lack of inhibition from Gaba-A. All the hormones in the world aren't gonna give you a woody if your nerves are in fight or flight mode. You NEED to be relaxed to be horny.(allopregnanolone modulates the gaba receptor to make it work/connect more efficiently to gaba.....think alcohol. Alcohol increases allopreg making Gaba inhibition more pronounced, thus the relaxing effect.)

Those are the main two, but there are more, smaller neurosteroids that are reduced by 5arII as well. You can't possibly replace all that is removed by inhibiting that enzyme. You just can't.

This makes so much sense. I hadn't even considered all the other things that need the 5-AR enzyme. And I can be a bit of an anxious dude, have taken Xanax for panic attacks years ago and was on anti depressants for a while, so I can't even imagine trying to function that out of sorts.

Again, thank you thank you, THANK YOU! To everyone here who warned me away from taking that stuff. You may have literally saved my life as I could be one of the guys who not only reacts badly, but imagining living in that space I don't know if I would want to go on if my brain was that out of sorts. I've seen what depression and anxiety can be like and I want NONE of it

[Cdsnuts]

Cd, glad you are getting better, I would never had noticed I guess. I had been taking 1mg a day for about 6 months. Luckily I didn't get any sides from it but from here on out I will stop using it. Thanks for the heads up! and all the best for you...

You may have gone years without any problems at all. Some guys take it for ten years and then all of a sudden the shit hits the fan. Others have taken it for a few weeks and have been devastated for years after. It all boils down to individual make up. Admittedly, Merck sells tons of it, so it's obviously a smaller subset of men who get completely ruined by it. The point is, you don't know if you're gonna be one of em. Is it worth it? It's like playing Russian roulette with the gun pointed at your sack.

[Cdsnuts]

This makes so much sense. I hadn't even considered all the other things that need the 5-AR enzyme. And I can be a bit of an anxious dude, have taken Xanax for panic attacks years ago and was on anti depressants for a while, so I can't even imagine trying to function that out of sorts.

This is the problem. Nobody considers it. NONE of these mental side effects are listed as a possible outcome of the drug. This is why I thought I was losing my mind before I stumbled onto the propecia help site. More recently, as in the last few years, they were forced to update the product insert to include depression as a possible side effect. Depression....that's it. Depression would be the least of your worries should you be sensitive to 5ar inhibition.

But after being part of that site for years, I've learned that even if the warnings were listed clearly on the product insert, guys would still take it regardless. Vanity is a fucked up thing. It makes you believe what you want....it makes you pick and choose your relative reality.

I'm glad you've decided not to take it. It's literally depression and anxiety on steroids.

[burlyman30]

It's like playing Russian roulette with the gun pointed at your sack.

So is marrying a fat woman. One day, you don't know when, that lovey dovey feeling wears off. You wake up one morning and for the first time see her as she really is. Fat.

Nut sack, meet the end of my revolver's barrel.

[Rayjay]

So is marrying a fat woman. One day, you don't know when, that lovey dovey feeling wears off. You wake up one morning and for the first time see her as she really is. Fat.

It actually sounds worse than this. Not only did you marry a fat chick, but suddenly every other chick gets fat and there is no one to leave her for and no chance to have any pleasure looking at that hot girl as she walks by. Because there are none. They're all fat. And ugly... Or something like that

[Cdsnuts]

So is marrying a fat woman. One day, you don't know when, that lovey dovey feeling wears off. You wake up one morning and for the first time see her as she really is. Fat.

Nut sack, meet the end of my revolver's barrel.

Well....I guess in both cases your dick wouldn't work......

[Cdsnuts]

I feel like donating blood on cycle is fine.. Only a small amount of blood is taken and so that's only a fraction of your blood concentration at one time being added to their body.. So wont it be metabolized quickly having almost no effect, considering you needed your whole blood concentration consistently for weeks to get any effect haha

Now I know why my wife grew a thicker beard then me after a blood transfusion. Damn you guys.

[burlyman30]

Well....I guess in both cases your dick wouldn't work......

Well played.

[Coolazice]

So is marrying a fat woman. One day, you don't know when, that lovey dovey feeling wears off. You wake up one morning and for the first time see her as she really is. Fat.

Nut sack, meet the end of my revolver's barrel.

This could easily be its own epic thread.

[DJM]

http://www.justsaypictures.com/images/fat-girls-give-the-best-head.jpg

[TubZy]

It's a complicated issue with not one straight forward answer. Your genetic make up has a HUGE part in the way you respond. The issue isn't just DHT related although that's a huge part of it. It's ALL 5-arII reduced steriods. The most important one being allopregnanolone. This potent neurosteroid is natures Xanax. It's reduced by the 5arII enzyme (the enzyme that propecia blocks...or destroys completely...the verdicts still out on that.) from pregnanolone. Without it, your a goddamn wreck. Can't sleep, completely anxious, can't think straight, cant focus....serenity is no longer a part of your existence. Horrific is the only way to describe it. We had guys on the site off themselves because of the state they were left in. Almost unbearable. For many, it IS unbearable.

So yeah, even though you can replace the DHT and test, It's not the same when your nerves are firing crazy because of lack of inhibition from Gaba-A. All the hormones in the world aren't gonna give you a woody if your nerves are in fight or flight mode. You NEED to be relaxed to be horny.(allopregnanolone modulates the gaba receptor to make it work/connect more efficiently to gaba.....think alcohol. Alcohol increases allopreg making Gaba inhibition more pronounced, thus the relaxing effect.)

Those are the main two, but there are more, smaller neurosteroids that are reduced by 5arII as well. You can't possibly replace all that is removed by inhibiting that enzyme. You just can't.

I know this is an old thread but the one thing that helped me with the mental sides when I was at my worse (couldn't sleep for years, anxiety, stressed all the time etc.) was both glycine and gelatin. After I found this study I figured out why (specifically related to allopreg).

Regulation of neurosteroid allopregnanolone biosynthesis in the rat spinal cord by glycine and the alkaloidal analogs strychnine and gelsemine. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18367344)

Also this thread reassured me

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/glycine-strongly-upregulates-5-alpha-reductase-5-ar-activity.9361/

And also getting in relation to GABA receptors.

GABA and glycine as neurotransmitters: a brief history (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1760744/#!po=0.867052)

That is why I also take magnesium glyicnate too.

[Cdsnuts]

I know this is an old thread but the one thing that helped me with the mental sides when I was at my worse (couldn't sleep for years, anxiety, stressed all the time etc.) was both glycine and gelatin. After I found this study I figured out why (specifically related to allopreg).

Regulation of neurosteroid allopregnanolone biosynthesis in the rat spinal cord by glycine and the alkaloidal analogs strychnine and gelsemine. - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18367344)

Also this thread reassured me

https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/glycine-strongly-upregulates-5-alpha-reductase-5-ar-activity.9361/

And also getting in relation to GABA receptors.

GABA and glycine as neurotransmitters: a brief history (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1760744/#!po=0.867052)

That is why I also take magnesium glyicnate too.

Interesting. How much would you say it helped?

[TubZy]

Interesting. How much would you say it helped?

It helped me tremendously with sleep. Fin destroyed my sleep pattern and gave me insane anxiety (I never had a problem my entire life with anxiety and sleep). Except when you don't sleep you even have worse anxiety the next day than normal on top of just having normal anxiety from fin alone.

My sleep has normalized again about a few months ago so I use it occasionally sometimes but definitely not required anymore. The thing is once I got my sleep/gaba under some what control a lot of the other symptoms improved quickly. But glycine is the only thing that really helped me from an anti depressant, anxiety and sleep/stress side. I tried everything from melatonin to growth hormone.

Crazy how bad this drug really fucks up your GABA receptors.

[Maxout777]

It helped me tremendously with sleep. Fin destroyed my sleep pattern and gave me insane anxiety (I never had a problem my entire life with anxiety and sleep). Except when you don't sleep you even have worse anxiety the next day than normal on top of just having normal anxiety from fin alone.

My sleep has normalized again about a few months ago so I use it occasionally sometimes but definitely not required anymore. The thing is once I got my sleep/gaba under some what control a lot of the other symptoms improved quickly. But glycine is the only thing that really helped me from an anti depressant, anxiety and sleep/stress side. I tried everything from melatonin to growth hormone.

Crazy how bad this drug really fucks up your GABA receptors.

My sleep has been normalized for a few months now too, ironically was one of the first things to come back. And I too noticed the improvement of everything else soon after. Going to add glycine either way though, if it boosts 5AR it'll be a good add on to EndoAmp. Just take 1-2g a night for starters I guess.

Good heads up.

[TubZy]

My sleep has been normalized for a few months now too, ironically was one of the first things to come back. And I too noticed the improvement of everything else soon after. Going to add glycine either way though, if it boosts 5AR it'll be a good add on to EndoAmp. Just take 1-2g a night for starters I guess.

Good heads up.

Yup., and if you want a nice 1-2 punch try magnesium glycinate throughout the day (it is also the most bioavailble form of magnesium). So you get the free T boost from the magnesium plus the 5AR/allopreg- and boost from the glycinated chelate.

Then glycine before bed and gelatin in your morning shake/smoothie. Gelatin also contains high amounts of natural glycine and also good for joints.

Also, the sleep issue for me was first to arrive and also first to resolve.

[Maxout777]

Yup., and if you want a nice 1-2 punch try magnesium glycinate throughout the day (it is also the most bioavailble form of magnesium). So you get the free T boost from the magnesium plus the 5AR/allopreg- and boost from the glycinated chelate.

Then glycine before bed and gelatin in your morning shake/smoothie. Gelatin also contains high amounts of natural glycine and also good for joints.

Also, the sleep issue for me was first to arrive and also first to resolve.

Awesome tips man, can't wait to add these.

It's funny you mentioned that being the first to resolve. Seems like that was the same for myself, you, and entropy on this forum. Seems to be a somewhat similar path to this tackling the monster.

[DrivenToRecover]

Imo bone broth is probably the best way to get maximum bio-available gelatin/glycine, but it is a pain to make. Anddd Its sketchy to leave your stove top on overnight lol

So I've been considering getting some of this stuff:

Bone Broth Collagen | Dr. Axe (https://store.draxe.com/products/bone-broth-protein-collagen?gclid=Cj0KEQjwvIO_BRDt27qG3YX0w4wBEiQAsGu 3easDWNx22PAAS_iQx3NTr36rR68U3EwMuuGDSt2EI14aAnZu8 P8HAQ)

but who knows if its really much better than a normal supplement when its been powdered

Sleep issues and anxiety are pretty much resolved for me in that order too, but my thinking is still pretty cloudy.

Thanks for the tip! Will definitely put this in my routine as well.

Can you link the supps you use?

[Cdsnuts]

It helped me tremendously with sleep. Fin destroyed my sleep pattern and gave me insane anxiety (I never had a problem my entire life with anxiety and sleep). Except when you don't sleep you even have worse anxiety the next day than normal on top of just having normal anxiety from fin alone.

My sleep has normalized again about a few months ago so I use it occasionally sometimes but definitely not required anymore. The thing is once I got my sleep/gaba under some what control a lot of the other symptoms improved quickly. But glycine is the only thing that really helped me from an anti depressant, anxiety and sleep/stress side. I tried everything from melatonin to growth hormone.

Crazy how bad this drug really fucks up your GABA receptors.

Agree 100%. I've said time and time again that a HUGE part of the problem is neurological, and when I was having good days neurologically, everything else would fall into place. This is why the meditation helped me so much. I'm going to start recommending this to guys if it works as well as you say it works. I would try it, but I doubt I would notice anything anymore.

Great addition. Thanks Tubz.....

Can you PM me your source?

[TubZy]

Imo bone broth is probably the best way to get maximum bio-available gelatin/glycine, but it is a pain to make. Anddd Its sketchy to leave your stove top on overnight lol

So I've been considering getting some of this stuff:

Bone Broth Collagen | Dr. Axe (https://store.draxe.com/products/bone-broth-protein-collagen?gclid=Cj0KEQjwvIO_BRDt27qG3YX0w4wBEiQAsGu 3easDWNx22PAAS_iQx3NTr36rR68U3EwMuuGDSt2EI14aAnZu8 P8HAQ)

but who knows if its really any better than a normal supplement.

Sleep issues and anxiety are pretty much resolved for me in that order too, but my thinking is still pretty cloudy.

Thanks for the tip! Will definitely put this in my routine as well.

Can you link the supps you use?

Yes, I bought organic bone broth for a while, but now it so much easier just throwing organic free range gelatin in my green smoothies every morning. I use/used the pure glycine powder from NOW foods- it's cheap. I always prefer powders over caps/tabs..hits way quicker and absorbs better.

[DrivenToRecover]

Agree 100%. I've said time and time again that a HUGE part of the problem is neurological, and when I was having good days neurologically, everything else would fall into place. This is why the meditation helped me so much. I'm going to start recommending this to guys if it works as well as you say it works. I would try it, but I doubt I would notice anything anymore.

Great addition. Thanks Tubz.....

Can you PM me your source?

Down to be the guinea pig

[Maxout777]

Glycine arrived today. Going to try a dose of 3g before bed tonight.....will report back. But then again, I may not be able to tell much for you guys as my anxiety (as long as I don't high dose R-Andro) and sleep issues are long gone. But maybe I'll notice something, right?

[nate3993]

Have sleep issues and always to take some thing to make me sleep. After years of using natty stuff, my body built a tolerance....so if glycine is a great help, I'm happy to use it.

[Maxout777]

Have sleep issues and always to take some thing to make me sleep. After years of using natty stuff, my body built a tolerance....so if glycine is a great help, I'm happy to use it.

I used it last night, didn't tell a whole ton of difference but like I said, had been sleeping fine for awhile now. Definitely didn't hurt though and going to continue using.

[TubZy]

I used it last night, didn't tell a whole ton of difference but like I said, had been sleeping fine for awhile now. Definitely didn't hurt though and going to continue using.

You used 3 grams right? try 5 or 6 tonight and let us know.

[Cdsnuts]

I was going to just suggest the same

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[Maxout777]

Yeah I started at 3g to judge tolerance. I think I'm gonna push it up a notch tonight. Interested to see what's happening with that.

R-Andro has me sleeping like a baby right now anyway lol.


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[Maxout777]

Was out like a light last night and was really hard to wake up (like the old days) this morning.

Took 6g. Seems to be some refreshing ass sleep. Highly recommend.


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[TubZy]

Was out like a light last night and was really hard to wake up (like the old days) this morning.

Took 6g. Seems to be some refreshing ass sleep. Highly recommend.


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Awesome man. Yeah it knocks you out lol. What I do is take 1-2 tablespoons of gelatin in the AM in green smoothie and magnesium glycinate with each meal during the day. If I really have a rough or stressful day I may add in 5 grams of pure glycine powder before bed (I used to use it every night when I was really bad).

[Cdsnuts]

Was out like a light last night and was really hard to wake up (like the old days) this morning.

Took 6g. Seems to be some refreshing ass sleep. Highly recommend.


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Awesome. Good to know

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[Maxout777]

Awesome. Good to know

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I think this could be really beneficial for people when they start the recovery journey. I made my large stride back to normalcy when my sleep came back to normal. If this can enable people to sleep refreshingly and deeply while doing all the other aspects.....could really accelerate things.


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[Cdsnuts]

I think this could be really beneficial for people when they start the recovery journey. I made my large stride back to normalcy when my sleep came back to normal. If this can enable people to sleep refreshingly and deeply while doing all the other aspects.....could really accelerate things.


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Totally agree.

I'm going to try some tonight to see what happens. Amazon prime had it to me in two days. Just got it this morning. Sometimes if I over do the partying I get hit with the booze rooster waking me up early as hell and stopping me from going back to sleep. This may be just what the doctor ordered....

Not to mention I always like to come from a place of experience when recommending things to other people. I would never suggest something to someone unless I have personal experience with it.

[Maxout777]

Totally agree.

I'm going to try some tonight to see what happens. Amazon prime had it to me in two days. Just got it this morning. Sometimes if I over do the partying I get hit with the booze rooster waking me up early as hell and stopping me from going back to sleep. This may be just what the doctor ordered....

Not to mention I always like to come from a place of experience when recommending things to other people. I would never suggest something to someone unless I have personal experience with it.

I'll continue using this regardless of situation probably (off and on of course), because I like the idea of this better than melatonin. Don't like using what is actually a hormone (and exogenous at that) to sleep.

[DrivenToRecover]

I'll continue using this regardless of situation probably (off and on of course), because I like the idea of this better than melatonin. Don't like using what is actually a hormone (and exogenous at that) to sleep.

X2 on this. It was really hard for me to ween myself off melationin though...Might be mainly placebo, but I actually ended up doing a hard reset on my sleep schedule a few months back. I Pulled an all nigher and kept myself awake till 10 the next night.

Since then, its been asleep by 10 every night with meditation and blue blocking glasses. Definitely seen benefits from this.

[Cdsnuts]

Sometimes a hard reset is just what the doctor ordered... At least you were only up one night.

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[TubZy]

Way way better than melatonin, I even tried using up to 10mg of melatonin before and hated it. The thing about glycine is it actually helps support the underlying cause (increases GABA, allopreg and 5AR) - it's not just a band-aid (say for example xanax or ambien etc.)

If you read Ray Peat's work he mentions that people today are methionine dominant and glycine deficient which it should be the opposite, if you go back to how our early ancestors lived (they ate all the animal parts- bones, cartilage etc. which are rich in gelatin, which naturally contains high amounts of glycine)

[Cdsnuts]

Way way better than melatonin, I even tried using up to 10mg of melatonin before and hated it. The thing about glycine is it actually helps support the underlying cause (increases GABA, allopreg and 5AR) - it's not just a band-aid (say for example xanax or ambien etc.)

If you read Ray Peat's work he mentions that people today are methionine dominant and glycine deficient which it should be the opposite, if you go back to how our early ancestors lived (they ate all the animal parts- bones, cartilage etc. which are rich in gelatin, which naturally contains high amounts of glycine)

Everytime I high dosed melatonin I had CRAZY ass dreams then felt all shitty in the morning...not really refreshed at all.

[Maxout777]

Everytime I high dosed melatonin I had CRAZY ass dreams then felt all shitty in the morning...not really refreshed at all.

Melatonin does the exact same shit to me. It's like the deja vu supplement for me. Dreams and it's always some flashback to a past event (party, hookup, etc.) and it's so real it's a little scary lol.

Then I wake up in the AM feeling about as refreshed as a sewer waste treatment plant.


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[Cdsnuts]

Melatonin does the exact same shit to me. It's like the deja vu supplement for me. Dreams and it's always some flashback to a past event (party, hookup, etc.) and it's so real it's a little scary lol.

Then I wake up in the AM feeling about as refreshed as a sewer waste treatment plant.


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So I'm going to get banged up tonight...gonna dose the glycine tomorrow or Sunday...eh...probably Sunday because I'll probably get banged up on Saturday too.....

[Maxout777]

So I'm going to get banged up tonight...gonna dose the glycine tomorrow or Sunday...eh...probably Sunday because I'll probably get banged up on Saturday too.....

Get banged up for the both of us.....soon I'll be back in the game.


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[Cdsnuts]

I'll knock one back for the SS boys

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[Maxout777]

Glycine sent me into the deja vu dreams again last night but the sleep was refreshing. Top notch stuff.