What is out there...

[LBC-83]

...that is similar to Epi or perhaps better, but also legal?

[h2s]

Why not just use Epi, it is still legal?

[weekend]

Yeah I think Epi is pretty unique haha, most hormones aren't too similar in their effects

[LBC-83]

I ask because I haven't followed any of the new products that have come out. IBE is out of stock so I'll take a look into RPN I guess.

[SoCal-Nutrition]

I ask because I haven't followed any of the new products that have come out. IBE is out of stock so I'll take a look into RPN I guess.

RPN has been out of business for 2.5 years...

there are plenty of other good Epi clones, check out Brawn by IronFlex...15mg x 60 caps for like $25 ;)

IronFlex Brawn (http://socal-nutrition.com/IronFlex-Supplements/IronFlex-Supplements-Brawn)

[Grape Ape]

Epistane is way over hyped on here.

What's wrong with some Halodrol clones?

[Fat Bill Dwyer]

Epistane is way over hyped on here.

What's wrong with some Halodrol clones?

I think the attraction is that Epi is just so damn easy. PCT is a breeze with that stuff.

[HIXX504]

Is an AI necessary when running epi? How is it on the hair line ?

[burlyman30]

Epistane is way over hyped on here.

What's wrong with some Halodrol clones?

I'm with you. Tried it and got next to nothing from it. No sides... no results either at 60 mg.

On the AI.... shouldn't need one, many complain that epi dries out their joints. An AI would only worsen that.

[Fat Bill Dwyer]

*Edit
Epi is often touted as an AI, although this is innacurate. It may antagonize estrogen in certain tissues, specifically the breasts. Bro-lore states that Epi is so affective at controling estrogen that you need to worry about an E2 rebound occurring when you discontinue Epi.

Bro-lore advises running an AI at the end of an Epi cycle and then into PCT. What's more likely is that Epi, an external androgen, may raise aromatase levels that may result in estrogen related complications post-cycle.

*edit IME Epi has very few androgenic sides. It's easy on the bacne and the hairline.

[burlyman30]

From what I understand Epi IS an AI. The dry joints from Epi are supposedly because of this. However bro-lore states that you need to worry about an E2 rebound occurring when you discontinue Epi so right before you discontinue use, bro-lore says to run an AI and then into PCT. I've never experienced E2 rebound with Epi, even after 60 days at 50mg so even though it makes sense, I'm not sure this is the case.

*edit IME Epi has very few androgenic sides. It's easy on the bacne and the hairline.

Piggybacking on what Bill said, I'd actually run an AI during PCT, which helps you deal with the low natural androgens in your body at the end of a cycle.

[HIXX504]

Thanks guys.

[milehighguy]

I did see some results from Epi but my joints were screaming by the end. This was also with a test base so I believe the E2 lowering effect was very strong in my case. This alone will prevent me from running it again. I know everyone reacts differently but Epi is not for me.

[Devastatingdave]

From what I understand Epi IS an AI. The dry joints from Epi are supposedly because of this. However bro-lore states that you need to worry about an E2 rebound occurring when you discontinue Epi so right before you discontinue use, bro-lore says to run an AI and then into PCT. I've never experienced E2 rebound with Epi, even after 60 days at 50mg so even though it makes sense, I'm not sure this is the case.

*edit IME Epi has very few androgenic sides. It's easy on the bacne and the hairline.Epi is not an AI in any way. Ive seen bloodwork that showed estro to be high during epi cycles. Though, it may be an estrogen antagonist though because it is an androgen.

[jw390898]

Epi should not be considered treatment, preventative or cure to anything estrogen related.


OP - you could also consider H-Drol with the right diet if wanting a change from Epi perhaps.

[markam]

I didn't get much from Epi except dry joints. Although Mechabol is more suited to bulking, you can cut on it, and it feels great. There are some Mechabol clones out there, but get Antaeus if you still can.

[SoCal-Nutrition]

I didn't get much from Epi except dry joints. Although Mechabol is more suited to bulking, you can cut on it, and it feels great. There are some Mechabol clones out there, but get Antaeus if you still can.

we still have some AL Mecha for $30/bottle...

[Fat Bill Dwyer]

Consider me schooled, I put out some bad bro-lore. Epi has never been reported as an AI, it's been touted as an "anti-estrogen" more specifically it antagonizes estrogen in breast tissue. From what I gather these assertions are based on studies of the non-methylated parent compound 2α,3α-epithio-5a-androstan-17β-ol. The Japanese studied it in the 70's as an anti-gyno drug and anti-breast cancer drug and said it had utility as both.

Here's one of the originial gyno studies.
2α 3α-Epithio-5α-androstan-17β-ol in Treatment of Gynecomastia (http://jjco.oxfordjournals.org/content/3/2/99.short)

The epi sold as a dietary supplement has the addition of a 17a methyl group.

While we all know that this 17a methyl group addition increases oral bioavailability, we don't know empirically what other effects, if any, it may have. So it would be irresponsible to say it would have the same effects as Epitiostanol, even if this seems very likely.

Ancedotal reports (I.E. bro-lore) state that Epi is affective for some users in reducing Gyno pain and occasionally size.

So once again sorry for the bad info, I'm going to edit the original post so as to avoid propigating garbage info.

[Avl]

epi jacked my blood pressure to the point i was getting some pretty epic nose bleeds- well that and jack3d.

[DJM]

I think the attraction is that Epi is just so damn easy. PCT is a breeze with that stuff.

not for everyone, that shit hurt my lipids more than tren in half the time

[Devastatingdave]

Consider me schooled, I put out some bad bro-lore. Epi has never been reported as an AI, it's been touted as an "anti-estrogen" more specifically it antagonizes estrogen in breast tissue. From what I gather these assertions are based on studies of the non-methylated parent compound 2α,3α-epithio-5a-androstan-17β-ol. The Japanese studied it in the 70's as an anti-gyno drug and anti-breast cancer drug and said it had utility as both.

Here's one of the originial gyno studies.
2α 3α-Epithio-5α-androstan-17β-ol in Treatment of Gynecomastia (http://jjco.oxfordjournals.org/content/3/2/99.short)

The epi sold as a dietary supplement has the addition of a 17a methyl group.

While we all know that this 17a methyl group addition increases oral bioavailability, we don't know empirically what other effects, if any, it may have. So it would be irresponsible to say it would have the same effects as Epitiostanol, even if this seems very likely.

Ancedotal reports (I.E. bro-lore) state that Epi is affective for some users in reducing Gyno pain and occasionally size.

So once again sorry for the bad info, I'm going to edit the original post so as to avoid propigating garbage info.

For what its worth, non methyl epi is probably also not a very good AI. It also probably works as an antagonist rather than an AI, much in the same way that masteron works to reduce gyno. Mast and epithio are about the same as far as effectiveness in treating gyno, so one could reason that they work through a similar mechanism.

[Devastatingdave]

...that is similar to Epi or perhaps better, but also legal?

Check out IL Triumphalis. It is most likely just as toxic/not toxic as epi (depending on how you view things) and will certainly provide better results mg per mg while still retaining a dry and hard appearance. At least that is my experience with it.

[Avl]

Check out IL Triumphalis. It is most likely just as toxic/not toxic as epi (depending on how you view things) and will certainly provide better results mg per mg while still retaining a dry and hard appearance. At least that is my experience with it.

good mass builder? not like sd good, but how much like mecha?

[Broly]

I can't let Epi get bashed like this with nobody saying anything good about it lol. I loved it! Hard, dry, lean gains... my only complaint was I was very lethargic for the last 2 weeks of a 6 week run.

[nate3993]

I can't let Epi get bashed like this with nobody saying anything good about it lol. I loved it! Hard, dry, lean gains... my only complaint was I was very lethargic for the last 2 weeks of a 6 week run.

epi sounds like hdrol with more sides.

[ezjax]

Celtic Epi is pretty cheap..

[USN HM 350Z]

I love epi... halo is ok too

[JM1000]

Epi for me made 2nd half of the day impossible... Lethargy would hit me like a truck! other than that results are ok!

[DJM]

ANAVAR ftw
its legal if you dont get caught lol

[SoCal-Nutrition]

yeah, you pretty much gotta run it with Stano and/or Dermcrine...otherwise lethargy is a biatch.

[h2s]

yeah, you pretty much gotta run it with Stano and/or Dermcrine...otherwise lethargy is a biatch.

or test :)

[DJM]

or test :)

to further this, not being a bias, but, i dont get the 'legal' argument for users of these phs outside of job restrictions. real gear works much better and is safer, i have bloods that proved it in my case........if one is anxious over a needle i totally understand, but stuff like anavar and turinabol are orals that are truly mild and not 'epi mild', that elicit great effects......sources for quality stuff are everywhere, more so up here than the us from what i gather, but either way......anyone who has made the jump kicks themselves why they didnt do it earlier, if pinning is an issue google search slin pinning method

all these phs are one foot in the direction of illegal to begin with.....and when you account for the 3-4 bottles to accurately dose these new phs price argument is gone as well

phs have theyre place, but if one truly was asking what is out there comparable to hdrol and epi, anavar and tbol all day everyday
if someone wants bang for their buck, a slin of 250mg test 2xwk is dirt cheap and will be the easiest cleanest best cycle of your life....fkn ice the spot if need be, slide it in then, it becomes like brushing teeth after couple weeks, which also is about the time you start to feel all the goodness of test

[JM1000]

I used to freak only thinking about a needle, almost past out first time, DJ will agree, I almost lost it lol.. The rest was a piece of cake... As of pH's i've only used epi wich wasn't great for the side I got.. Test was a walk in the park

[olddawg]

fk you give dj a real 1 1/2" pin and he'll still faint :eek:

[DJM]

fk you give dj a real 1 1/2" pin and he'll still faint :eek:

i hate it, slins all the way
i had hg test and only 23s worked, fkn sucked

[olddawg]

lol, I have 2 cases and a half of slins left, not sure if i'll ever use them and the peptides I have or not. I just went to a local drug store though and got a 100 count of 1" for $20, no shipping or nothing

[SoCal-Nutrition]

I'm heavy, most people can't pick me up after I pass out...no needles for me

[JM1000]

I get the needle anxiety though, took me everything, almost pussed out. Once the needle was in, i lost all vision, couldn`t see shit it was all black, could only here him saying ''wooow duude you ok'' .. took me everything to stay...

[DJM]

I get the needle anxiety though, took me everything, almost pussed out. Once the needle was in, i lost all vision, couldn`t see shit it was all black, could only here him saying ''wooow duude you ok'' .. took me everything to stay...

it WAS our secret lol

[Broly]

I get closer and closer to making the jump to pinning with each day... It really is the best route when health is the concern. And from what I hear nothing beats real test.

[burlyman30]

i hate it, slins all the way
i had hg test and only 23s worked, fkn sucked

lol, can you still call it pinning if you can't even feel it go in? 23s are all I ever use. Thinking about using a 5" needle... <DJ's head hits the floor as he passes out from the thought>

[USN HM 350Z]

I use 23g when I do my delts and 22g when I stick it in my butt.......

[Sorrow]

yeah I guess I'm one foot in the door, one foot in the grave. I have no needle anxiety, did growing up something fierce then army and about 10 hours of tattoos killed that. Ironically my current doc for some ungodly reason wont let me do home pin and wont check E levels which is pissing me off.

Before that I didn't use PH or think about "gear" as I went to drug tested meets (that actually did have testing) so I had a reason not to. Now though even though the HRT is just supposed to get me to normal levels you get the stigma associated with you. And I've found I'm not invited back to some of those meets (most) which prompted the recent PH cycles. And "guest" lifter status as I respect that its intended to be as natural as possible and I don't want to stomp somebody who may be following the rules. BEsides theres lots of guys who are way better then me and I prefer to be at those meets. I just feel the competition brings out the best in me.

A few of the guys have tren, which it would be between tren, or just straight test. Possibly trest in there as well. With some kind of AI. I still need to learn some more and I know my composition isnt optimal. Plus I'm still making good strength gains without so... we shall see.

[JM1000]

lol, can you still call it pinning if you can't even feel it go in? 23s are all I ever use. Thinking about using a 5" needle... <DJ's head hits the floor as he passes out from the thought>

that just gave me the chills

[burlyman30]

A few of the guys have tren, which it would be between tren, or just straight test. Possibly trest in there as well. With some kind of AI. I still need to learn some more and I know my composition isnt optimal. Plus I'm still making good strength gains without so... we shall see.

If you get blood tests regularly for testosterone levels, then blasting test isn't a likely option because it will show up on the test. In my opinion, you could choose between many different compounds to complement your TRT, tren being one of the more effective ones for adding strength and increasing recovery time.

[Sorrow]

Not really tested regularly, guess thats the pit fall of it being a family doc, even though he does specialize in internal medicine. I don't think he's covering all the bases. And we haven't really checked it that regularly. This last time was at my request so I know where I am at. An actual Endo I think would be more thorough. But low dose tren would be my choice. Not sure what variety just yet but I'm thinking it would have more then enough kick to support me on my quest.

Sorry for thread jacking.

[Halogenix]

Consider me schooled, I put out some bad bro-lore. Epi has never been reported as an AI, it's been touted as an "anti-estrogen" more specifically it antagonizes estrogen in breast tissue. From what I gather these assertions are based on studies of the non-methylated parent compound 2α,3α-epithio-5a-androstan-17β-ol. The Japanese studied it in the 70's as an anti-gyno drug and anti-breast cancer drug and said it had utility as both.

Here's one of the originial gyno studies.
2α 3α-Epithio-5α-androstan-17β-ol in Treatment of Gynecomastia (http://jjco.oxfordjournals.org/content/3/2/99.short)

The epi sold as a dietary supplement has the addition of a 17a methyl group.

While we all know that this 17a methyl group addition increases oral bioavailability, we don't know empirically what other effects, if any, it may have. So it would be irresponsible to say it would have the same effects as Epitiostanol, even if this seems very likely.

Ancedotal reports (I.E. bro-lore) state that Epi is affective for some users in reducing Gyno pain and occasionally size.

So once again sorry for the bad info, I'm going to edit the original post so as to avoid propigating garbage info.
Just out of curiosity but does anyone know if unmethylated Epi is scheduled?

[Halogenix]

Mechabol (or IF Mbol) is a much better alternative than Epi IMO. Nice pumps, strength goes up, and gains are lean and cut. No shitty sides other than slight liver enzyme elevation (with a moderate dose @ 75mg).

[h2s]

Mechabol (or IF Mbol) is a much better alternative than Epi IMO. Nice pumps, strength goes up, and gains are lean and cut. No shitty sides other than slight liver enzyme elevation (with a moderate dose @ 75mg).

I think the hardening/vascularity is stronger with epi.

[Devastatingdave]

good mass builder? not like sd good, but how much like mecha?

Hard to say because I have never used mecha. But it has a similar AA ratio to superdrol. Mg per Mg it would be stronger than mecha, and I can say from personal experience that the gains from Triumphalis are pretty lean and hard.

Also if you like mecha, it might interest you to know that the same creative mind is responsible for the release of both. You can expect the same quality.

[Halogenix]

I think the hardening/vascularity is stronger with epi.

That may be true (much higher androgenic ratio, for whatever its worth). Nonetheless, more androgenic symptoms like low HDL and shedding do come with it for many people. This is my second run of Mecha and no shedding with minimal increase of LDL (on the last run).