Do steroids cause permanent gains in the User, even after discontinuation?

Eventually body will go to "baseline" size meaning that muscle weight gained by AAS will be lost- tough must be noted that person had stretched his muscles/fascia so he it will be somewhat easier to regain size, plus he may be able to surpass his pre-AAS genetic limits ( a little bit) with good training regime and lifestyle even if he does not use AAS- again not by much

I've seen lot of really big guys stop training because various reasons- and overweight ones were back to being overweight, skinny were skinny again
Also, personal my experience confirms this


AAS have very powerfull effect on brain, and difference in brain chemicals last for 5X longer than cycle, and are very addictive
and IMO thats main reason why majority of guys are using gear- they dont want to stop and be what they were before, they dont want to lose "feel"

Question (2 part question) -

1) Assuming a person trains to their absolute max both on and off cycle and their diet is also on point both on and off cycle does that persons genetic limit grow after each cycle? (basically do cycles allow you to hit new baselines for everything....strength/mass wise....even if it's minimal)

2) Assuming it does grow (even if it's just a bit) after each cycle....does this genetic limit extend to both body fat and muscle mass (meaning is the max LBM achievable/maintainable by your body after a cycle also allow you to stay at that level at a new lowest bf %)?

hope the questions make sense.

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Originally Posted by mrgodlike

1) Assuming a person trains to their absolute max both on and off cycle and their diet is also on point both on and off cycle does that persons genetic limit grow after each cycle? (basically do cycles allow you to hit new baselines for everything....strength/mass wise....even if it's minimal)

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The science about the genetic limit is a mixed bag and the term can be a little misleading. For those who believe the genetic limit is just that - a limit - then no, nothing short of modifying your dna will actually change that. However, if you think of it as a genetic predisposition or a genetic point of diminishing returns, then this kind of consistent effort won't really change that point, but will make it easier to bypass and stay past it. If/when that effort ceases, the clock starts ticking down toward your predisposed limit, but the more and longer you've pushed past that the slower your return to normalcy will be, since there are other mechanical factors involved beyond genetic disposition (e.g. the growth of satellite cells you didn't have before, fascial accommodation, cardiovascular support).

New cycles won't change the genetic factor but can help you adapt to the difficulty of holding a little bit past it. My genetic 'limit' is a lean 185. It was shockingly easy to get there and a huge struggle for every pound after. No amount of oil jammed into my leg is going to turn me into dorian yates, but doing what you've described above is how I can hold 200-210.

i would say that there is a genetic restriction to natty growth. and then an actual limit. the restricton for you may be 190 lb 8% bodyfat. and it would take a long time to get there, and only extremely persistent lifestyle would get you above this, towards the actual limit. the actual limit might be 225 lb 8%

i would say after cycling you could up your natty limit about 1/3 to half of the weight achieved on steroids, which to a point where you actually are limited. some huge amount of steroid may get you to 300 8%, but you will always shrink down to 225 8% after no matter how hard you try. then it could be easy to lose more muscle, but you could maybe hold it up in that area when you're on point.

so i think basically yes it increases genetic limit, but only to an extent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrgodlike

Question (2 part question) -

1) Assuming a person trains to their absolute max both on and off cycle and their diet is also on point both on and off cycle does that persons genetic limit grow after each cycle? (basically do cycles allow you to hit new baselines for everything....strength/mass wise....even if it's minimal)
2) Assuming it does grow (even if it's just a bit) after each cycle....does this genetic limit extend to both body fat and muscle mass (meaning is the max LBM achievable/maintainable by your body after a cycle also allow you to stay at that level at a new lowest bf %)?
hope the questions make sense.

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1. In some cases after first cycle person can increase their limit, but minimal- all their subsequent cycles will be in same category as typical cycle which is rent-a-car, or better said rent-a-muscles
So answer to question 1 is NO

2. Simply speaking- body is tightly controlling muscle mass as more muscles it means more expenses, more energy consumption- and body is trying to be very cost effective, on other hand fat itself does not require anything it is just sort of storage, so body is not worried about it- so basically if your baseline is 150 lb of LBM (non-fat tissue) you will always return to 150 lb of LBM, body fat can be 5% or it can be much higher- depending on many factors: training, diet, body type, basal metabolic rate etc...

J- what about if (1)you are able to maintain the higher energy intake necessary to support the muscle and/or (2) succeed in up-regulating your metabolism, which is implicit in (1).

Is it possible to permanently up-regulate one's metabolism. I feel like that's what I, in a completely uninformed, unplanned and random way, managed to do last Spring, when i leaned out and shed 25 pounds of fat. Since then i have put 25 pounds back on - but it's almost all LBM: still have a six pack, BF is only up ~ 5 pounds and i'm eating like a large draft animal while putting in less time but at MUCH greater intensity in the dungeon


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OK, what I said in my earlier posts is basically that eventually body will return to its baseline- now that does not neccessary mean very short time- with good diet, training strategy it can be kept for a long time,
other thing is that AAS are designed to be of medical use, and they do have a wide application and they do have benefits and AAS can sometimes treat some issue that was preventing person from progress, wheter it was muscle gain or muscle loss
Basically- my idea is that if persons basal metabolic rate increases, body has greater chance of repairing damage done to it or even resolve some issues which would than lead to improvement in performance, body composition improvements and wellbeing in general including libido improvements.
So yes, up-regulation ones metabolism is possible, and as a matter of fact- that is noble cause.

Has this article been mentioned at all? Interesting read. Testosterone propionate can have permanent effect on muscles, says animal study

TL;DR: Researchers gave some mice test prop, others no test prop. Groups exercised, then stopped. They were back down to pre-cycle size. Then they started making the rats exercise again and the ones who had previously taken the test prop grew faster.

It just seems to intuitively make sense that once the body reaches a point where it has built up so much muscle, it will be able to return to that point (or try to) because it remembers needing to be like that in the first place.

Sort of like someone who has learned a skill like juggling... even if they don't do it for a long time they can hop right back in to doing it with just a little practice.

Cycles give you permanent increased nuclei on the muscle allowing it to grow faster and bigger than had you never taken steroids. That is one way that they do have lasting effects. Androseries even touched upon this. I think I already stated this though earlier in the thread.