I know you liked PPs AHv1 but have tried IML's Epi Andro RX?
I think you'd be the man to compare the 2 since you had cases of PPs AHv1.
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I've often thought about that, I'd bet my left nut that there is some dude out there who hasn't been to the gym in a few years, has lots of other priorities now, not interested in internet forums who has a box of V1 PP products that would blow your mind. Kinda like the guy with a Gretzky rookie card sitting in a shoe box in his closet. It's funny how this stuff is now considered to be hidden treasure, dudes asking $600 for a bottle of AHV3....
I have 2 full bottles of PP Turinabol but I'm not counting on them to be my retirement fund lol
I have fat in my belly because I'm with hormonal problems I think I don't have much fat in my arms so do you guys think epiandro will help me to reduce the body fat in my belly? I want to use it to see if I get a libido boost, morning wood and the second thing I'd like to notice with it is a reduction in my body fat.
I had/have some fat in my midsection as well, but I think it's due to a carb and dairy problem (reads beer and pizza), not a hormonal problem, though I guess if you have enough adipose tissue it could become hormonal as well.
Anyway, is your diet in check? Gym routine? All that stuff first, then hormones man.
Though I guess if you were gonna jump right into stuff then epiandro wouldn't be the worst one to choose.
PS- If I come of as dickish, I'm not trying to be a dick
My diet and gym routine is ok. The problem is that I don't wake up with morning wood, have no libido, etc. I think this is the main reason I can't get rid off my midsection body fat it is like my muscle don't get dense or hard. That's why I want to try epiandro-hard (because it has more mg per capsule) from PN and see if I can get libido back, morning wood etc. My muscle hardness I think it is correlated with my issues but solving my issues is the main objective by running epiandro-hard. I used proviron 50mg per day and didn't notice much. Just clear mind and more energy through the day no libido increase or morning wood I'm affraid that taking epiandro-hard will give me the same thing proviron did. But I read proviron is not much androgenic it is just strong to attach into the androgen receptor even woman take proviron and don't get any masculine signs like more hair, deeper voice etc.
Have you had a hormone panel lately? That would probably provide more insight into whats going on, rather than trying to negate symptoms with more hormones.
Epiandro may provide some temporary relief but when you come off it you may go back to having the same issues because you have some underlying issue.
Get some bloods and throw them up in the Men's Health section, I'm sure someone (probably Jelsie) will chime in and give some better advice.
ok so i made up my mind..........i am gonna do iml epi andro solo at 6 caps per day.
what else should i get for on cycle and pct?
So far I have seen clients Bloodwork on about 3-400mgs ED at highest.
Epi Andro has shown in all of the users to be very mild and not liver toxic, according to labs. This would correlate with the theory. Long term, I can't say, but these are 60 day runs.
Def have heard some people claim that by end of cycle, they feel like prostate may be swollen, or irritated slightly, nothing horrific, but after long term use, weakened urine stream, loss of ejaculatory volume (which is common on AAS/PH regardless), etc..
DHT levels def high. So the biggest concern I see using these compounds would be potential hair loss or thinning for anyone predisposed to Male Pattern Baldness.
What I have my clients run is this exact protocol as a base. Should they choose more products, that is their call.
Epi andro by Iron Mag Labs or Prescription Nutrition are the top 2 versions IMO.
Liv52 by Himalaya
Nizoral 2%- topical shampoo to protect the hairline.
Cabaser aka dostinex at .5mgs E3d **optional**
Vitamin C
The biggest dispute that is going on right now, which I will admit I began this issue on IML last year, is that I personally believe that saw palmetto reduces the effectiveness of Epi andro. Not 'Eliminate" but "reduce". I do not have month to month labs to prove this, simply medical theory.
What I have found is that the people that argue with me about Saw Palmetto is a bad idea while using epi andro are those forums who retail products with saw palmetto in their organ support. For example on forums where IML products are, alot of guys fought me tooth and nail on this. Why? Because Advanced Cycle Support (ACS) their support product, has saw palmetto in it. So imo, this is a conservative attempt to save sales. $$$$. And don't get me wrong, I love the guys there, IML is awesome, products are good, company is good..ACS is great..but I am not going to give wrong information in order to preserve sales for ANY company. That's just what it is..
Now mind you, the potential for prostate being "temporarily enlarged" I would say is a 100% "possibility". I have not seen this in younger users, more so in older experienced athletes who have long term AAS use/abuse and PH use/abuse. This would show itself in weak urine streams, painful urination, weak ejaculatory volume, painful ejaculation, etc, etc..
Also remember, DHT is used to treat BPH, or prostate enlargement. Prostate enlargement and cancer is actually linked to high estrogen levels in users who are in the 2nd stage of growth. Users with long term increased hormonal levels are more at risk.
This would make sense because most likely these users are already on HRT, dosing AAS, other PH's, and they likely already have either some enlargment, possibly some damage pre-existing, etc, etc, etc...so an increase in DHT would very quickly manifest itself in the form of changes to urine stream, changes to sexual abilities and volume, etc, etc..
So my thought is this, unless you have a pre-existing issue, or your prostate is already enlarged, you should not use any type of DHT blocker such as Finasteride, Saw Palmetto while on. These are in alot of organ supports, that you may not be aware of..but this is a good thing, saw palmetto is a very good product.
This is why I have them use Nizoral 2%, because it is topically used on the scalp and targeting that area. People argue that it is systemic. Nizoral 2% is not strong enough to remotely compare to use of Saw Palmetto or Finasteride which are taken orally and intentionally systemic blocking as much DHT as possible. "IF" ketocanzole enters the blood stream through topical application to the scalp, it is minimally intrusive at best. This is the best option to have optimal DHT levels, minus hair loss.
What I would rather see my clients do is to do a 45-60 day run, without it. Deal with the minimal enlargment if it occurs and then during PCT introduce saw palmetto and other products at that time. 45-60 days IMO is not going to cause permanent damage to someone that does not have a pre-existing condition. It is very temporary.
Think of testicle atrophy for example. This is a common accepted potential side effect that is easily reversible. It just goes with the territory.
Cabaser as an option, why?
As men age, their prolactin levels can increase, and this produces 5 alpha reeducates. Essentially this converts testosterone into even more DHT..so if you are supplementing with AAS/HRT, on top of EPI ANDRO one has to realize that you are getting even more DHT then you think, since you have the synthetic form being consumed daily and then your body is converting a percentage of the additional testosterone (AAS/HRT) into it.
Solution, Cabaser. Eliminate prolactin. Also lowering prolactin levels also increases DHT. Cabaser has also been shown to improve libido and sexual ability, so this is a good thing. Since high prolactin levels reduce gnrh and lh, etc..which you don't want to happen.
Keeping your prolactin levels low on any cycle is important, but may be even more beneficial while using DHT and Testosterone combined.
Anti-Estrogen??
I say NO. Why? Well DHT is an anti estrogen. If you have ever run epi andro or stanolone, or other versions of DHT, and you had a small nodule, or pre-gyno, you will notice it can shrink and make it go away.
DHT does NOT convert to estrogen.
PCT-
Depends. Some users have experienced pretty mild shutdown based simply on a pretty quick return to natural Testosterone levels, 2-3 months after discontinuation..but truthfully there is not enough long term data to prove this.
Primarily the users I have seen with Epi andro are using AAS or other compounds, so I cannot say effectively speculate what is shutting them down the most, their epi andro or the 2-3 other compounds they are running.
That or they are remaining on AAS/HRT after the epi andro cessation, so PCT is not a requirement at that time.
I'd always suggest a strong PCT for any PH/AAS use, regardless. It's relatively safe,not super expensive, etc..
I have seen alot of guys just going back to Clomid and Nolva for PCT, or HCG/Nolva clomid.. I won't get into the argument of "PCT", not even in the least. I am of the belief there are dozens of effective ways to return HPTA. Something I don't personally like to discuss is PCT protocols, because alot of people will just argue to argue on forums, and 100% of the time i have given a protocol on a forum, someone else says to run it a different way, or the person getting the advice questions it. "well on bodybuilding.com, an 18 year old experts says you should take Ralox and this and this and that.."Attachment 1144
I will not take the stance that one version is better then others. Often on forums you will see people claiming there way is the "only" way, or studies show this, studies show that. Stick with what you have found works for you. If you do not have a current protocol, go with a basic Clomid and Nolva protocol. We have seen in the past 15-20 years Bodybuilders on the internet,showing blood work that would validate that basic Clomid/Nolva protocol "can" be very effective.
Hope this helps :)
I was under the impression that Epi Andro and similiar compounds were already 5ar reduced? The way Saw palmetto works to block DHT is by inhibiting this enzyme, so the T to DHT conversion never happens. With these compounds,(epi, androhard, etc.) you're already past that point, so technically Saw palmetto wouldn't do anything to the exogenous production of DHT, only the endogenous production, which if you're running these compounds, wouldn't really matter much at that point.
Yes, this is scientific fact. I was being polite and not trying to "call anyone out." And the reason I know it's fact is because of my own miserable experiences fucking with the 5ar enzyme. Alot of us guys over at the propecia site had to become weekend warrior scientists/endocrinologists so we could get our lives back. This is also how I know that Saw Palmetto extract can be just as dangerous to certain predisposed individuals as propecia. They both inhibit 5ar. This is how they illicit their DHT lowering effects.
I also had alot of back and forth with Eric concerning this issue years ago. I still have his emails somewhere.
You can just do a simple search to find this, or, you can actually just look right at the white papers for Epi Andro which is linked to their website.
This excerpt is from page 3:
"Epiandrosterone is 5a-reduced, like DHT, meaning it will not 5a-reduce in androgen-sensitive
tissues of the body (because it is 5a-reduced already), therefore the use of a 5a-r inhibitor to
reduce androgenic side-effects (like hair-loss or acne) is futile. Moreover, its inability to reduce
might enable more selective interaction in tissues which express 5a-r heavily (like the skin and
scalp) to reduce certain delta-4 steroids. It will also not aromatize.
http://www.ironmaglabs.com/pdf/Epi-A...0Explained.pdf
So how does one deal with BPH while avoiding 5a-r inhibitors?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That question has lots of answers depending on the individual. Just know, if your taking these compounds, your 5ar inhibitor isn't going to do anything. It's a matter of "having your cake and eating it too." Typically it just can't be done.
But then their is evidence that prostate swelling is actually caused by too much Estrogen, which would make sense, seeing as the prostate is the male equivalent of the uterus. When the human "template" is created, the sex organs are just non-descript masses. These masses are turned into the target organ by hormone signaling. When estro hits this mass (prostate/uterus), well, it turns into a uterus, whereas when test/DHT hits, it turns into the prostate. When estrogen rises in a man, the prostate is just doing what the hormones tell it to do, which is swell up, like a uterus, which is much, much bigger then the prostate. Even though it's been a prostate for the mans whole life, it's been that way because of his hormones.
I've never dealt with BPH, but I know alot of guys on the propecia site have had it bad because of out of control E. Most if not all of these guys got it under control by lowering their Estro load.
But, like most things concerning hormones, you need an accurate picture of what yours are doing at any given point to make a determination as to the correct course of action.
Still though, this doesn't explain why people complain of prostate issues after running DHT cycles? From my research, I suspect is has less to do with the DHT and more to do with another cause. That cause, I just don't know what it is. But seeing as DHT antagonizes Estrogen, I can't see how DHT in and of itself could cause prostate issues, rather then fix any issues someone may have had.
I thought:
High DHT + Low Estrogen reverses BPH
Low DHT + Any Estrogen levels stops BPH (doesn't reverse it)
High DHT + High Estrogen increases BPH
gotdamn.............this is why i love swolesource.
If they complain of prostate issues AFTER running DHT compounds rather than during, it makes perfect sense. If you stop running a dht compound, your androgen levels are low. At this point, even a normal amount of estrogen can/will aggravate the prostate. DHT does not lower estrogen, it simply is an androgen. With high androgen and moderate estrogen in the body, the androgen's effects simply "overpowers" the estrogen. But it doesnt eliminate or lower the estrogen. Go off the androgen and the rebound effect will occur if you do not have an AI/serm in place. Think of it in terms of two people on each end of a tug o war rope... and suddenly one guy lets go.
So you're saying 'in laymans terms; running Saw Palmetto won't weaken the effect of Androhard or similar. This is of particular importance to me as Saw P really helps re peeing at night. I take it all year round.
I would tend to agree with this. Although I'm on the fence about Low DHT + Any estrogen, as if DHT was low antagonization of Estro wouldn't be balanced correctly, which could lead to issues. We all know that we need some Estrogen for things to work correctly, but that is some estrogen in a correctly balanced hormonal environment. I don't have facts to back that last statement up, just my opinion based on my studies.
This^^^^^^^^^yes. What I should have said was DURING the cycle, not after. That is what I don't understand. Based on all of this, how could someone have prostate issues during the DHT cycle.
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That is correct. It is simply past the point of being able to do anything to exogenous substances. UNLESS there is some other mechanism of action that is unknown or undocumented. (with saw palmetto) You are your best guinea pig.
sounds good
In all fairness, I was expecting to hear disagreement..not calling me or anyone out, we are all a close knit group, so I'd rather think of it as a friendly discussion to try and figure out what the deal is...no one here, myself included can say for a 100% fact what it is..we can simply give our beliefs and experiences as to why :)
For one, this is so complex of an understanding and for 2 there is such a lack of research in the area, that likely if and when it is determined it will be trial and error by a bunch of bodybuilders LOL..which is the way it often has happened.
So why do I believe based on the above information that Saw Palmetto will reduce the effectiveness of EPI ANDRO compounds?
Saw Palmetto contains fatty acids that can inhibit the spread of testosterone. This can deter testosterone from converting into DHT. Saw Palmetto hinders the binding of DHT to androgen receptors
DHT also binds to other receptors, for example at the hair follicle, and this is why it is theorized to weaken, etc..
So in lamens terms..lets say your body is getting DHT from a shot, a pill, a transdermal, or your body was making it on its own. The structure, even if Epi andro is (5-AR) reduced (which I cannot say is true or not) is still considered a DHT molecule..no matter when where or how it happens.
If the theory that it binds to a receptor is true, then when saw palmetto or finasteride enter the system, they also work by adhering to dht that is present at the receptor and eliminating it.
The issue with people having prostate issues while on DHT, again, to me I would theorize that it is in men with existing issues, enlargement or past abuses of AAS...and it's simply becoming inflammed once again, and/or estrogen levels being high are also part of the mix.
None of the younger guys or new guys to AAS/PH have once told me of weak urine streams/sexual issues, etc..but 75% or more of the guys who have abused AAS for years, or PH's, or that were even on long term HRT have told me of some of these issues.
It is very very difficult to make full sense of.
As another example, look at Epistane (Havoc)...in theory that is used to treat and prevent gyno in normal males, or in males using AAS, etc..Now in theory, it is said that it cannot convert, etc, etc..but I can tell you for a fact I have run probably 20+ guys on Epistane and maybe in 25-50% they had issues with pregyno etc...
What I will say is that this is certainly a great topic to discuss with all of you, since we can respectfully go back and forth..
If we were anywhere else, people would be rude, name calling, etc, etc...
What I will say is my theory,is my "belief" of how the mechanism works from my understanding of DHT and it's application. I can't say for a fact I am 100% correct :) :) But I absolutely believe that saw palmetto and finasteride weaken the effects of the Epiandro compound aka stanolone aka DHT. To what extent?? I cannot say.
ok my last time saying it
love this forum
:) Absolutely CD :) Everyone here is amazing..you as well.
This is why I'd much rather bring up this topic here..and get some good back and forth going..I think their is sufficient info on both our views for someone to choose :) I don't even care if anyone agrees with me, but at least consider it as an option. I do want to know about the idea that epi andro is (5-AR) reduced..I know nothing about that. I am not saying it is not possible..I seriously don't know. Please feel free to post that info up..I'm all ears and want to know!!
Like CTAL said, this forum is the best. Much respect to you CDS :) and everyone at SS :)