Mainly through my own struggles. I would notice that when my brain was really off, so would my vision. So I did some research and sure enough Gaba is connected to sightQuote:
Originally Posted by Turnover25
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Mainly through my own struggles. I would notice that when my brain was really off, so would my vision. So I did some research and sure enough Gaba is connected to sightQuote:
Originally Posted by Turnover25
I know it’s frowned upon to talk about Phelp here, but there was a young man that recently recovered from neurological symptoms, primarily visual (I’m just like you Turn, mainly plagued with neuro symptoms - fishbowl feeling, head pressure, eye focus issues, etc) through bacopa, which impacts GABA receptors. It’s the most scientific explanation you will find and he actually had his CSF tested. You will be impressed with his post if you read it. But anyways CD seems to be right that the visual stuff is all GABA related. Anyways felt obligated to share in case it helps you in any way.
it's one of the recommended herbs in the protocol for this very reason. Add in Gotu Kola and you have a one two punch.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbbould
And, it's not frowned upon to talk about anything here. You guys can discuss anything you wish. I just do my best to keep it as positive as it can be given the situation you guys are in. You don't need anymore mental negativity. it serves no purpose other then to keep you down.
This forum is, now, for the most part, to discuss recovery through the method laid out on TMO. That is the point. IF it strays from that from time to time, I just bump it back in the right direction. The recoveries here are here for a reason. Simple as that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbbould
What's Phelp? And thanks man, I actually have Bacopa but I haven't been using it, I think I'll throw it in my stack from now on and see what happens. By the way, how are you doing lately man? I know the mental stuff is hard to deal with.
Edit: Nvm, Propecia Help. Definitely frowned upon haha. But I'm glad that guy has recovered. If you want to throw me a link, I'd be happy to read his post. But I'm definitely not going to go to that site and fish around for it.
Hey man - sorry for the late reply. I’m doing well. Slight improvements here and there, but nothing crazy. I can mentally handle this much better than early on, so grateful for that. Been off fin for a little over two years now. Took 2 pills. I’ve followed the protocol for a few months here and there but I always end up cheating by eating something shitty or having a few cocktails. My neurological stuff is pretty profound, so hopefully it’s fixable. I attribute most of it to neuro-visual issues, but I do have a feelIng it’s more profound. I plan on doing a fast and starting over again, so I will start my own thread once I do. There are some things that happen to your body that are just not fixable (even things that science can actually comprehend), so I’m willing to accept a recovery that isn’t 100%. Even if I get to 80, I’ll be super satisfied. I have no doubt I can get there, but I need to put in the work and listen to my body and make adjustments. Something this complex, won’t be a one size fits all, so I plan to take an approach where I make tweaks If necessary. I don’t think anyone here can say anything is one size fits all with such few data points (that’s just how science works). I’m going to do diet, herbs, etc. but I still haven’t decided on the pro-hormones. Will look to you guys for help when the time comes.
What do you think is "just not fixable"?Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbbould
Just accepting that not everything is fixable in life and that’s okay. Just because it was caused by Fin doesn’t all of sudden make it fixable. Lots of people live with eye floaters and tinnitus their whole lives (many difference causes). Some get lucky and it resolves. Deep wrinkles on your face are not going to disappear. I do believe most of my issues will resolve, but I won’t be back 100% to the person I was before this and that’s okay. I can live with that. Still be totally happy as long as the primary stuff resolves (neurological stuff).
Btw - @hulk how are things for you? You seem to be a vet, so absolutely value your opinion and experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbbould
I don't think the neurological stuff like brain fog/visual issues/eye floaters are permanent, I've had days where my fog lifts and I can think/remember better than I could before fin, then it comes back again. So my theory is that something is more likely "blocking" your bodies ability to work properly, instead of something is broken. If it were broken, it wouldn't be possible for me to slip in and out like I tend to do. Also, guys like japanther recovered fully from full blown brain fog, I'd say I'm recovering, other days I have doubts but today maybe not, also, I had this exact same thing happen years ago when I took an antacid medication called Nexium. Same brain fog/neorogical block and visual issues, only this time it stuck around. Also, anxiety and stress alone can cause the same symptoms, even though I know thats hard to believe. The vision where it looks like you're looking out of a window, eye floaters and weird visual disturbances are things people report with DPDR, which is an anxiety induced phenomenon.
2 years is nothing in the big picture of life, bro. You're not going to be thinking of finasteride 50 years from now, your body is gonna figure it out, just get out of its way and aid it in the healing process. Make sure you're getting your nutrients, sleep and exercise and you'll be good man.
Well said. I have days where the neuro stuff lasts all day and I think to myself how will this ever go away. PFS can feel so intrinsically involved with the brain and all its feelings and thoughts and moods and desires. It traps you in a mindset that you can't escape. The best you can do in those moments is meditate and try and think about nothing because thinking about anything will be muddled with your PFS feelings. But then...... All of a sudden.... I will have days where I am completely 100% neuro symptom free. I wake up in the morning and see the sun shining through the window and have beautiful normal thoughts. Ill get out of bed and make breakfast and turn the tv on and think normally. Ill go the whole day making plans and analyze life and situations and have zero blockage and feel happy and excited. Ill think maybe I am free. How could my brain ever go back to that trapped feeling again? I feel totally free. It's a mind boggling thing. Because eventually something triggers it, and it slips back into that PFS trapped mindset and the cycle repeats itself.
So the good news is: My brain does still know what normal is. I have logged many more normal days than bad days the last few months. I would put my worst days up against anyone as far as neurological symptoms. I would love to be able to actually compare with someone because I'm sure I would win. But I am getting to a point where it's slowly being defeated by the good days. My brain wants to be normal. And I'm giving it as much help as I can. Time+TMO=normal
Glad to hear it man! Even your objective indicators like vision resolve 100% as well on the good days?
When I first crashed a year and a half ago I had double vision and couldn't look at screens or people because I would see multiple images. I couldn't focus on anything. It was terrifying!!! I have completely recovered from that though. I still have eye floaters and my peripheral vision is still a little off. But it is all slowly improving. To answer your question though, no, even on the good days I still have eye floaters. But it's so unimportant to me that I still consider those days 100%.
A few weeks ago I tried to start taking turmeric for neuroinflammation and I began seeing double, especially while reading. It’s a 5ar inhibitor, not sure if that’s the reason but that’s the only time that’s ever happened to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphacfi
Makes sense! I had that in the beginning as well, but that naturally went away with time. I remember it felt completely out of body. Like life was slow motion. That vastly improved simply with time, but I’m still left with eye focusing issues, shaky vision, eye floaters, etc, but you’re point is the same one that I am making. Sometimes we have to accept that we won’t heal 100 percent, and that’s okay. Like you, I can live with some of the more minor stuff. Thanks for sharing!
Would anyone here say carb backloading is essential for recovery? I personally feel better eating carbs (oatmeal) in the AM and I haven’t been backloading in a while. Also doing great.
I'm just now seeing this - but yeah, I definitely had that pretty badly. Cold showers made my vision/neuro symptoms worse too. What motivated me was reading how English had similar issues and he just pushed through. They eventually went away for him. Mine got better during my first cycle, and completely went away after the cycle was finished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnover25
Thanks brother. I am going to jump on my first cycle in a few weeks, hoping that it does some wonders for me. I honestly feel like I would be recovered if this part went away.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxaleksi
Hey guys, little update. I have been doing better than ever before, a game changer for me was adding in methylfolate with methyl-B12 and a B complex twice a day, if you're like me and have MTHFR C677T, your body can't process folic acid (vitamin B9) and needs the methylated version. I saw some people who crashed by taking methyls on propeciahelp (I also did) and have studied their stories, every single one of them either only took methylB12 or Methylfolate by itself, this is going to cause you to crash HARD due to them needing to feed off of each other to work properly, eventually leading to nasty deficiencies, especially potassium. There was a study that showed fin users had methylated cells or something, due to my experience and crash back in March, I have a theory that fin causes your body to methylate and this creates massive vitamin or mineral deficiencies, which if it is a functional folate deficiency, or "methyl trap" it's not going to show up on any tests you do because the blood still has a lot of folate, but it was pushed out of the cells due to insufficient B12. If you have PFS, I HIGHLY suggest you test for MTHFR with 23 and me DNA tests, it has really changed my life so far honestly, and if you do have MTHFR and are taking a B complex with folic acid, you're going to make yourself worse. I did that for months and was noticeably worse after taking it, that's gone away with methylfolate. I've lived my whole life with a folate deficiency and never knew. I got methyl trapped back in march because I didn't take methylB12 with methylfolate, in turn I crashed and it was the EXACT same experience as my fin crash, and it stuck around indefinitely until I fixed the deficiencies through supplementation, so maybe there is a link. I also studied a lot of different DNA panels from propeciahelp and noticed most of them had the MTHFR gene mutation of some sort, which effects how your body metabolizes things, such as fin.
Before taking the methylated vitamins, I was dizzy a lot for no reason, that's gone now. I also couldn't handle eating vegetables due to being methyl trapped, and my DPDR was much worse. I've seen a lot of improvements in all of these areas.
Anyways, lately I've been fluctuating up and down, but my ups seem to be much better than my downs. Lately my long term memory has been better than ever before honestly, and I can remember things I did with other people and have conversations again. But this fluctuates and sometimes I nearly have dementia again. But I am functioning a whole lot better than a year ago. I've also been laughing a lot, I've always been the funny guy and it seems that is back for me. My anhedonia is also gone I believe, it still fluctuates but I don't feel as low constantly as I used to. I feel like I have emotions again whether good or bad. I've also been thinking about my future more, which is new, I never did that the past year, I look at pictures of cities and get excited that I could live there someday. Hard to explain, but I wasn't able to emotionally do that like 6 months ago. Also, I look at tattoos a lot lately also which is something I used to do every day, I have a sleeve and I've always wanted another one, so I think once I recover my first move is going to finally start my other sleeve. Definitely frustrating because I definitely don't think putting ink into your body during recovery is going to do you any good. But just the fact that I look at them again and have interest in them again shows that the rays of my long lost personality are starting to shine through the dark clouds of PFS.
Last night, I drank for the first time in 9 months. I decided fuck it, once in a great while isn't going to kill me, and I wanted to see how my body reacted to alcohol. Also, I was at a pool party and decided I didn't want to be sober at this cool party. A year ago, drinking a beer would cause crushing, dark weird anxiety and I would crash immediately, I'm happy to say that my body reacted absolutely great to alcohol and I had the time of my life. Didn't crash at all, and today I don't even feel any anxiety, just have a little headache due to my hangover. I look at this as a huge improvement, I honestly had the time of my life, just taking shots with my friends and laughing and partying, it was a nice release after a year of being strict and putting in work every day.
I'm feeling good about the future guys, I'm probably around 60-75 percent or so, but the final 30 percent is the toughest hurdle for me, and the spacey, high feeling type brain fog doesn't seem to want to go away. I can't imagine a life where I am free from it completely, but hopefully after jumping on my first Andro cycle I see some improvement in that aspect. I still also have light sensitivity and a mental block where it's hard to talk to people and I still forget where I am sometimes, but I feel it's improving.
Just moved into a cool ass house on a lake with my best friend for the summer, I kayak every day and am having a great time, I also have a couple motorcycles in my garage that keep my constantly busy and happy. I think above all, finding things you enjoy to fill your time is the best thing you can do for yourself during all of this. Laughter has honestly been the best medicine for me, alongside everything else I do on the protocol honestly. Which, is tough to follow once you feel decent, but I want to get back to being really strict now that I've had some fun. A little word of advice for someone just starting out on this journey, DO NOT ISOLATE YOURSELF. I spent the first 8 months isolated, it is the single worst thing you can do for yourself during this, get out of your house, find some friends and have fun. My condition is a million times better living with my best friend and doing fun stuff rather than lying my bed and living by myself like I did in the beginning.
Anyways, I'll update later on guys. I'm still not recovered but I feel much better in a lot of different areas. Keep pushing!
My man, glad to see you're living up to your name and turning this shit over!. Super inspiring to go through your thread and see the improvements in a relitavely short space of time especially considering how bad things seemed for you in the very beginning. Personally I'm going to redo my water fast for 5-7 days and really attack this thing with all I've got. Personally I've been hit more with physical sides instead of mental ones but all the same the protocol will lead us to the same destination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnover25
Personally although I'm yet to start the protocol officially I'm having up and downswings (down currently) but when I'm up your absolutely right it's tough to remain disciplined in my case food wise as I feel absolutely fine but being not far removed from the crash I don't want to go back to my absolute worst.
Looking at your symptoms I would of assumed you may have been in for the long run but seeing how far you've come so quickly from where you were shows the prior discipline we need to make this shit a thing of the past.
Keep pushing my dude!
Update, I’ve been drinking this month. I know it isn’t advised, but fuck man it has made picking up girls a lot easier. If you’ve been following my thread, you saw I was sober for 9 months. That was because alcohol used to mess me up bad. Now, it’s kinda just normal honestly. I’ll get hungover and have a memory lapse like anyone else. But man.... first time I drank I ended up getting with this hot chick from class. Also, there’s another smoking hot girl coming to my house to kayak on Monday. Maybe it’s the testosterone? 🙂😂 if you’re following my thread, I’m not recovered, I still struggle bad. But I’m doing a bit better, slowly. that’s my modest feedback. Keep at it brothers.
@Comewhatmay Huge inspiration to see your comment brother, I’ve been at this for awhile even though I don’t stuck to it religiously anymore (sadly), I’m glad guys like you can read my shit and realize your life isn’t over. Shit was terrifying in the beginning, and I still have my moments but now I’m a lot tougher than that. I think CD will vouch for this, the longer you go and the better you feel, the tougher it gets to follow the protocol as intensely as the beginning. Don’t listen to the dudes on those other forums. You’ll recover my man. My vision is still messed up and I have some brain fog but man.. it’s like we cracked the code to get better. Just keep at it.
One thing, be happy you got hit with physical sides. No matter what anyone says, you don’t have it that bad if it’s mostly physical. I’d trade with you in a heartbeat.
Also, sadly I’m still in this for the long run. I’m just very optimistic and my memory has returned a bit. But I don’t think I’ll be in that recovery thread for a bit yet. But also, I don’t fuck around with the protocol. I have discipline and it’s my foundation.
What brand of b vitamins and methylfolate do you take? Is there a problem taking them if you don't have that gene?
I take solger metafolin and country life methylB12. Also vitamin b complex with vitamin C without b12 or folate. All of those are required for methylation or you can screw yourself up. There’s no problem without the gene but if you don’t have MTHFR then your body can break down folic acid and there’s no need for methylfolate.
Small update, huge huge upswing in my general mood and feelings. I was wondering if/when this day would come. I was out grocery shopping and just noticed that I could just like.. feel. It's hard to explain, I just felt that normal summer day/evening feeling where you're content and happy, I could feel the breeze and smell the grass around me, I just felt happy. I haven't felt anything in so long it was almost euphoric. I noticed that my other symptoms are worse at the moment, which is weird, it's like I always trade one thing for one bad thing. I'm going to go outside and work on my motorcycle and just enjoy the upswing while it lasts, I'm sure I'll feel like shit tomorrow since that's usually how it goes for me and posting on this forum haha. But that's it, keep pushing boys.
Great stuff, T25! Sounds like you are making great strides. I totally remember those summer highs (though winter here right now). Looking forward to getting them back soon...
I feel like I am making slow but steady progress too. Getting back into the gym again after they re-opened here has been great. Working from home during COVID has really helped me to get more sleep too - even if I am up for an hour or so at night- I can sleep in a bit to catch up.
Keep on keeping on, brother!
Thanks brother. I’m glad to hear you’re seeing some progress, keep pushing my man!Quote:
Originally Posted by DefRecover
- - - Updated - - -
Currently doing some squats and deadlifts with a couple of 35 pound dumbbells in the sunshine, feeling awesome! Not necessarily heavy, but doing a little more reps than normal. I feel like I’ve gotten more jacked over quarantine even tho I haven’t been able to lift heavy. What kinds of workouts have you boys been doing while gyms are closed?
@Maxout777 received my honorable discharge certificate today from the Marines, left active 4 years ago. I'm a free man. I feel an odd sense of a weight lifted off my shoulders that I didn't know was there haha. Bitter sweet for sure.
Congratulations my man! I remember that like it was yesterday. Not sure about you, but I didn’t expect to have any feeling except joy when that finally hit and I too felt bittersweet. Kinda like high school, I couldn’t wait to get out but when the day came it set in that those I’d grown up with I might never see again. Crazy how life works - but again man, congrats! And as my dad says (also a vet), “sure beats the other kinda discharge!”Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnover25
Hey bro, I reading your post about MTHFR, and it sounds interesting. I was thinking of getting tested, but I wanted to try taking the methyl vitamins to see if they help my dizziness. I noticed there are several different dosages of the Metafolin and methyl B12. Also, what B complex, with vitamin C, are you taking?Quote:
Originally Posted by Turnover25
Jado, just curious.....how long have you been doing this? And at what percentage would you say you're sticking to it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jado
I've been at it for around 18 months, and I've seen some great results. I've done two 1-week juice feasts, and one 2-week juice feast, and I'm currently cycling 14 herbs. The only parts of the protocol I don't do is "sunning the boys" (I get plenty of sun, just not on the boys) and pumping (I don't have trouble getting erections). My diet is super clean, I'm lifting, doing yoga and surfing on a regular basis.. I feel like I'm getting close, and all the symptoms that remain are milder than when it first started, just still have this pesky dizziness intermittently. I do have some other symptoms hanging around, but I feel like, if the dizziness would stop, I would be totally recovered. It may just be, my body needs more time...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdsnuts
What type of dizziness? Like, when does it come on, and how often?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jado
So, it varies. Sometimes it's like a mild lightheadedness, and other times it's more severe, not quite room is spinning, but almost. It's not nearly as frequent as it was in the beginning, and it doesn't last as long. Also, I used to have horrible headaches almost everyday, and they seemed to be linked to the dizziness (obviously both neuro). Now the headaches have all but stopped. I may get a very mild one here and there, but they're not bad at all. Honestly, a couple months back I had about a 3 month stretch where I had no dizziness, and only very mild symptoms in general. I thought for sure I was gonna be posting in the recovery section in no time. Then this dizziness slowly started again. It's not daily, some days I don't have any. I would say it's happening like 2-3 days a week. Sometimes it last a couple hours, sometimes only 15-20 min. It seems like driving may it worse, actually. Almost like an equilibrium thing. Didn't really notice that early on, but noticing it now... I feel like it's just another downswing, and I know it will pass, just looking for ways to treat symptoms until my body finishes healing. Of course I also don't want to do something that makes it worse...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdsnuts
Can you link it to something that you're doing possibly? Like, does it happen after eating, working out, etc, or does it just happen when it happens? Could be something unrelated altogether....Quote:
Originally Posted by Jado
Have you checked your blood pressure?
And yeah, smart not jumping into taking something right away until you can narrow it down.
Yeah, I haven't been able to tie it to anything specific. Like I said, it kinda seems worse when I drive, but it could just be driving exacerbates very mild dizziness that I don't really notice till I drive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdsnuts
I'll start paying closer attention to see if eating has any effect. Eating cheese and a few other things use to give me headaches, but haven't noticed any correlation with dizziness. I'll really start paying closer attention. I mean, heck, this whole thing seems so unpredictable, it's hard to say. I'm stoked I'm doing better, just wanna post in that recovery section!
I don't have hypertension. My dad had it, so I always keep an eye on it.
We'll see, I really feel I'm close, and I know I'll get there, just want it now.
Lol....I hear you man, I do. And you WILL post in that recovery section sooner then later. I think it's safe to say the worst is behind you now at least. But yeah, please keep us posted. I haven't heard of this symptom so much, so I'm curious to know how it pans out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jado
You know what I just thought of...I've been spending a TON of time on my phone - searching, texting, etc. Maybe that has something to do with it...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdsnuts
I mean, it COULD be possible. There is alot of interesting (and horrifying) research on all of the cell phone radiation we are bathed in on a daily basis, especially with the new 5G technology being blasted out all over the place. You may have a sensitivity to certain electromagnetic fields. I mean, it's a stretch, but not out of the realm of possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jado
Read up on something called the Q-link pendant. Q-Link Pendant: What You Need to Know - EMF Empowerment
I've had one for about 15 years now, although I haven't worn it in quite sometime. Really since being recovered. There is alot of solid scientific research behind this. Give it a read and do your own research. I simply pulled the first article that came up when linking it here.
Thanks man, I'll check it out. I was thinking more related to blue light/eye strain...either way, I know tje worst is behind, and I'll keep pushing till I get there. Thanks again, manQuote:
Originally Posted by Cdsnuts
Hey @Turnover25, i saw your comment somewhere where you mentioned that your tinitus went away. I was interested to know how long did it take for it to go away? Did the protocol help with that?
Mine say ag ..... checking for the gene . Not sure what that means? 24.5 frequency huh?