Need advice, didn't fully recover from PCT! please help

Hey guys i'm asking this question for my older brother who's 23 and finished his 2nd cycle 2 months ago.

His first cycle was 500mg test for 10 weeks with no orals.
standard nolva/clomid pct no hcg used and test levels were tested couple months after and were in the mid 600's

then he decided to run this cycle
600mg test e 1-10
400mg mast e 1-10
superdrol weeks 8-12 30mg ed
anavar weeks 13-16 40mg ed (the reason he extended the cycle was for a photoshoot never planned on adding the anavar but it worked to keep him from losing any size / definition)

PCT
10 days hcg blast
nolva 20mg 4 weeks
clomid 50mg 4 weeks

Anyways after running the PCT above, his total test came back at 368, free test at 68.8 range 35-155 pg/ml

Also his triglycerides were high and BUN / Creatinine were slightly elevated which is all probably from the orals.

Would you guys recommend he tries to run a 2nd pct? He ordered the Intimidate/tropinol stack, and was wondering if he should run that with clomid or torem to see if he could recover back to normal levels, or is he destined for HRT? Hope you guys can give some solid advice on the matter, thanks.

How long were blood test done after PCT? Its possible that his testicles were completely atrophied as it seems that he did not run HCG during cycle, so pct was not enough to recover him completely as "fully operating" testicles can produce only around 80 ng/dl per week, plus something gets spent.

He could try "restart protocol" which is basicaly siimilar to PCT. So he could try running clomid (or nolva) + little of AI for like 3 months and then slowly tapper down.

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Originally Posted by AestheticOne

Hey guys i'm asking this question for my older brother who's 23 and finished his 2nd cycle 2 months ago.

His first cycle was 500mg test for 10 weeks with no orals.
standard nolva/clomid pct no hcg used and test levels were tested couple months after and were in the mid 600's

then he decided to run this cycle
600mg test e 1-10
400mg mast e 1-10
superdrol weeks 8-12 30mg ed
anavar weeks 13-16 40mg ed (the reason he extended the cycle was for a photoshoot never planned on adding the anavar but it worked to keep him from losing any size / definition)

PCT
10 days hcg blast
nolva 20mg 4 weeks
clomid 50mg 4 weeks

Anyways after running the PCT above, his total test came back at 368, free test at 68.8 range 35-155 pg/ml

Also his triglycerides were high and BUN / Creatinine were slightly elevated which is all probably from the orals.

Would you guys recommend he tries to run a 2nd pct? He ordered the Intimidate/tropinol stack, and was wondering if he should run that with clomid or torem to see if he could recover back to normal levels, or is he destined for HRT? Hope you guys can give some solid advice on the matter, thanks.

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A few things stand out to me:

His second cycle was full of harsh compounds and for an extended duration.

He did not run HCG from the cycle start. HCG should be run from week 1 and going forward. HCG after a cycle like that won't do jack shit.

The Intimidate/Tropinol stack won't hurt anything at this point. I'm actually astonished to see his test in the 300s. He ought to be thankful it isn't in the zeros.

It is going to take time for him to rebound. Some natty products and waiting are about all he can do for now.

Running another PCT won't hurt anything. I've had to do it before, everything turned out well.

FreePress you're right on the HCG protocall however he didn't plan to run a cycle for that long he just had things come up that he needed to stay on for but HCG shouldve been implemented in the beginning like you said, anyways what do you guys think a good restart plan would be?

would 50mg of clomid ED for 4-6 weeks be best?
or what would give him the best shot at restarting his hpta?

Jelisej the blood test was taken aprox 4 weeks post PCT.

Jelisej is a smart dude. Follow his recommendations

to state the overstated, 23 and 2 cycles under his belt... a tad young

Jelisej can you be more specific as to exact dosages / length of time you recommend? Thanks

Just wanted to throw this into the discussion:
http://www.swolesource.com/forum/men...-t-levels.html

Without having bloods prior to his cycle, these numbers don't mean a tremendous amount. This may approximately what "normal" is for him.

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Originally Posted by AestheticOne

Would you guys recommend he tries to run a 2nd pct?

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If his #s are just a little on the low side of the normal range but he isn't experiencing any physical or emotional sides I would suggest letting nature take its course and retesting before his next cycle or in 9-12 months, which ever comes first.

How much HCG was used in the "blast" post cycle and how often were the injections?

as for 4 weeks post bloods you should be doing 6-8 weeks post as the long esters are just at their finishing points at the 4 week mark.

It sounds as though not enough HCG was used, it should be used on cycle as said or in large enough doses post cycle to restart the leydig cells, it's like trying to start an old car when using HCG post cycle you need to crank it over a few times before it will run on its own.

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Originally Posted by O.N.

How much HCG was used in the "blast" post cycle and how often were the injections?

as for 4 weeks post bloods you should be doing 6-8 weeks post as the long esters are just at their finishing points at the 4 week mark.

It sounds as though not enough HCG was used, it should be used on cycle as said or in large enough doses post cycle to restart the leydig cells, it's like trying to start an old car when using HCG post cycle you need to crank it over a few times before it will run on its own.

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500 iu ed for 10 days, clearly not enough.

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Originally Posted by AestheticOne

500 iu ed for 10 days, clearly not enough.

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typically People who use HCG post cycle will dose 2500IU eod for 16 days 8 injections in total i know this sounds like a boat load but it is proven and used by Dr Michael Scally in his PoWeR PCT program.

You are 15,000IU short.

Small doses are not enough to restart the system once it has become desensitized to LH this is why the big doses are needed, yes it works out you use a lot less HCG when used on cycle but if you dont use it you have to mega dose it like this during PCT.

Since it has been several weeks now you cannot run 2500IU as "some" of they leydig cells sensitivity will be returning however you can do small restart doses as used by Dr Shipping where you run 500IU mon-fri for 3 weeks after that point complete another blood test roughly 2 weeks post the restart. Be sure to test all parameters LH/FSH etc etc.

We have seen many people in the past assume they can get away with doses like you have run and each time we see the same results, it needs to be run correctly and you simply have not done that.

couple things. a-it's not him, and b-i thought hcg is by no means something to have in ur pct. it can raise estrogen. and at mega doses like that i would assume you'd have some major estro sides

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Originally Posted by nate3993

couple things. a-it's not him, and b-i thought hcg is by no means something to have in ur pct. it can raise estrogen. and at mega doses like that i would assume you'd have some major estro sides

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you would use an AI or a SERM with it as described in the protocol by Dr Michael Scally.

Scally's a smart dude - probably the only physician in the United States to ever extensively study AAS-induced hypogonadism. But I've seen more than a few people disagree with his Power PCT protocol.

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Originally Posted by Freepressright

Scally's a smart dude - probably the only physician in the United States to ever extensively study AAS-induced hypogonadism. But I've seen more than a few people disagree with his Power PCT protocol.

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I was on cycle once for 9 months without any HCG i stayed on for that long simply because HCG wasn't available these are my bloods after using the power PCT program: PoWeR PCT Program post #5

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Originally Posted by O.N.

I was on cycle once for 9 months without any HCG i stayed on for that long simply because HCG wasn't available these are my bloods after using the power PCT program: PoWeR PCT Program post #5

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Did you happen to do blood work 6 weeks later? I'd be more curious as to the long lasting effects.

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Originally Posted by AestheticOne

Jelisej can you be more specific as to exact dosages / length of time you recommend? Thanks

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He should run 13 weeks of 25mg of clomid every day or alternatively 50 mg every other day (some people react better on 50 mg every second day for some reason), then he should slowly start tappering down for another 4-8 weeks, (reducing on 75% for week or two, than 50% for couple of weeks, than 25% for week or two), in conjuction he should use AI (preferably irreversible/suicidal) like aromasin 12.5 mg 3X a week- he should run AI until 2-3 weeks after cesation of SERM.
Other thing he should eat mixed nuts every day (they will increase testicular sensitivity to LH- its actually same thing as tocco-8.
Vitamin d 5000 IU every day.
Viagra helps to utilise LH more efficiently.
He should not exercise too much. Must get enough sleep.

Now, important thing is not just recovery of HPTA- but what is also target here- to create better "set point"- we are hoping that his "body" will accept normal/higher levels of TT rather than return to 300-400 ng/dl which is far below.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by O.N.

typically People who use HCG post cycle will dose 2500IU eod for 16 days 8 injections in total i know this sounds like a boat load but it is proven and used by Dr Michael Scally in his PoWeR PCT program.

You are 15,000IU short.

Small doses are not enough to restart the system once it has become desensitized to LH this is why the big doses are needed, yes it works out you use a lot less HCG when used on cycle but if you dont use it you have to mega dose it like this during PCT.

Since it has been several weeks now you cannot run 2500IU as "some" of they leydig cells sensitivity will be returning however you can do small restart doses as used by Dr Shipping where you run 500IU mon-fri for 3 weeks after that point complete another blood test roughly 2 weeks post the restart. Be sure to test all parameters LH/FSH etc etc.

We have seen many people in the past assume they can get away with doses like you have run and each time we see the same results, it needs to be run correctly and you simply have not done that.

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Desensitation to LH should not happen, simply as that. Also HCG should not be used in more than 500 IU a time or more than 2000 IU per week.
Hipotalamus-pituary will not send signals to testes to start making testosterone untill HCG clears of the system.
BTW HCG half life is around 30 hrs.

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Originally Posted by Jelisej

He should run 13 weeks of 25mg of clomid every day or alternatively 50 mg every other day (some people react better on 50 mg every second day for some reason), then he should slowly start tappering down for another 4-8 weeks, (reducing on 75% for week or two, than 50% for couple of weeks, than 25% for week or two), in conjuction he should use AI (preferably irreversible/suicidal) like aromasin 12.5 mg 3X a week- he should run AI until 2-3 weeks after cesation of SERM.
Other thing he should eat mixed nuts every day (they will increase testicular sensitivity to LH- its actually same thing as tocco-8.
Vitamin d 1000 IU every day.
I'm not fan of DAA but in this situation its very helpful.
He should not exercise too much. Must get enough sleep.

Now, important thing is not just recovery of HPTA- but what target here is too create better "set point"- we are hoping that his "body" will accept normal/higher levels of TT rather than return to 300-400 ng/dl which is far below.

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I agree with everything you said except the 1,000 IU of D3 per day. I'd recommend 5,000 if he isn't exposed to a great deal of sunlight on a regular basis, otherwise 2,000. It's also good to take D3 alongside Vitamin K2 to increase absorption.

Just my $.02

I prefer moderate regular intervals of hcg throughout cycle as opposed to Scallys blasting. I am in no way discrediting his knowledge, he knows more than I could dream about on the topic, I just have consistently proven which method works for me.

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Originally Posted by h2s

I prefer moderate regular intervals of hcg throughout cycle as opposed to Scallys blasting. I am in no way discrediting his knowledge, he knows more than I could dream about on the topic, I just have consistently proven which method works for me.

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I am very much in agreement with this. The HCG blast that I did years ago still haunts me today with over sensitive nipples. Obviously I did not have sufficient conjunctive therapy, though. Maybe things would have been different if I did, but the whole blast method just leaves a bad taste in my mouth to this day.

More frequent HCG shots, less aromatisation. And its bit more natural. I would personaly recomend 125 IU every day, or alternatively 250 IU every other day on cycle. Maybe bit more if required.
Out of cycle- on so called HCG monotherapy even less than 125 can be ok. Its really up to person to find own best dose.

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Originally Posted by Jelisej

More frequent HCG shots, less aromatisation. And its bit more natural. I would personaly recomend 125 IU every day, or alternatively 250 IU every other day on cycle. Maybe bit more if required.
Out of cycle- on so called HCG monotherapy even less than 125 can be ok. Its really up to person to find own best dose.

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Jelisej, dont take my question as challenge,but more as respect to your vast knowledge. what's your educational/professional background?

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Originally Posted by longBallLima

Jelisej, dont take my question as challenge,but more as respect to your vast knowledge. what's your educational/professional background?

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he's just a straight up hormonal baller

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Originally Posted by longBallLima

Jelisej, dont take my question as challenge,but more as respect to your vast knowledge. what's your educational/professional background?

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I have no educational/professional background in medical field. Nate's description is a good one.

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Originally Posted by Jelisej

Desensitation to LH should not happen, simply as that. Also HCG should not be used in more than 500 IU a time or more than 2000 IU per week.
Hipotalamus-pituary will not send signals to testes to start making testosterone untill HCG clears of the system.
BTW HCG half life is around 30 hrs.

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Yes i understand this but if HCG has not been used on the cycle the they leydig cells need to be restored as said its like trying to start an old car you have to turn it over a few times before it will run on its own, once the HCG is not having any effect on testosterone production and testosterone level dip the brain will sense this drop in testosterone and LH/FSH will be released so there is basically little to no crash testosterone levels will go from synthetic testosterone to forced production from HCG to then dip slightly and then normal LH/FSH will take over as soon as those levels are not high enough anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jelisej

More frequent HCG shots, less aromatisation. And its bit more natural. I would personaly recomend 125 IU every day, or alternatively 250 IU every other day on cycle. Maybe bit more if required.
Out of cycle- on so called HCG monotherapy even less than 125 can be ok. Its really up to person to find own best dose.

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Actually once the compounded effect of over lapping doses 250IU 2 per week is actually equal to 94% of a normal males weekly LH production.

So a lower dose will not be enough and any higher dose "might" end up being too much and causing over stimulation of the leydig cells.

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Originally Posted by O.N.

Yes i understand this but if HCG has not been used on the cycle the they leydig cells need to be restored as said its like trying to start an old car you have to turn it over a few times before it will run on its own, once the HCG is not having any effect on testosterone production and testosterone level dip the brain will sense this drop in testosterone and LH/FSH will be released so there is basically little to no crash testosterone levels will go from synthetic testosterone to forced production from HCG to then dip slightly and then normal LH/FSH will take over as soon as those levels are not high enough anymore.
Actually once the compounded effect of over lapping doses 250IU 2 per week is actually equal to 94% of a normal males weekly LH production.
So a lower dose will not be enough and any higher dose "might" end up being too much and causing over stimulation of the leydig cells.

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I dont say that you're completely wrong, just that its much better to use HCG on cycle from day 1 and try to prevent testicular atrophy- sometimes its not possible and in that cases your practices are valid- though I would not recommend more than 500 IU per shot and more than 2000 IU per week.

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Originally Posted by Jelisej

I dont say that you're completely wrong, just that its much better to use HCG on cycle from day 1 and try to prevent testicular atrophy- sometimes its not possible and in that cases your practices are valid- though I would not recommend more than 500 IU per shot and more than 2000 IU per week.

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Dr Shippens method of 500IU mon-fri for 3 weeks is quite well, we have done this over here for people just like this situation many times now each with good success.

I have also helped several people who were diagnosed as needing HRT from a doctor to come off HRT and return natural levels.
have a look here: From HRT to natural testosterone with Res100

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Originally Posted by Jelisej

He should run 13 weeks of 25mg of clomid every day or alternatively 50 mg every other day (some people react better on 50 mg every second day for some reason), then he should slowly start tappering down for another 4-8 weeks, (reducing on 75% for week or two, than 50% for couple of weeks, than 25% for week or two), in conjuction he should use AI (preferably irreversible/suicidal) like aromasin 12.5 mg 3X a week- he should run AI until 2-3 weeks after cesation of SERM.
Other thing he should eat mixed nuts every day (they will increase testicular sensitivity to LH- its actually same thing as tocco-8.
Vitamin d 1000 IU every day.
I'm not fan of DAA but in this situation its very helpful.
He should not exercise too much. Must get enough sleep.

Now, important thing is not just recovery of HPTA- but what is also target here- to create better "set point"- we are hoping that his "body" will accept normal/higher levels of TT rather than return to 300-400 ng/dl which is far below.

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Should the AI be used through out this clomid reboot?

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Originally Posted by Macdon1588

Should the AI be used through out this clomid reboot?

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My buddy is doing this reboot as well, and I'm curious about the ai while on the clomid as well and at what dosage... Or should it only be used after the SERM clears the body.

It should be used together, but AI (preferably aromasin) dosage should be rather small, also AI should be run bit longer than SERM.
As for AI dosage it should be somewhat smaller dosage than person would be normaly using. On average I would say it should be between 12.5- 25mg of aromasin 3X a week, but again it depends from person to person and also some brands are more or less potent than others so that should be taken in account.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jelisej

It should be used together, but AI (preferably aromasin) dosage should be rather small, also AI should be run bit longer than SERM.
As for AI dosage it should be somewhat smaller dosage than person would be normaly using. On average I would say it should be between 12.5- 25mg of aromasin 3X a week, but again it depends from person to person and also some brands are more or less potent than others so that should be taken in account.

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Thank you.

thnx j!!!