My story and road to recovery - Mojo

Hi everyone,

My story on Finasteride
Took it for 1 month, dosing 1mg every 3 days. Finally felt ecstatic about doing something about my hair loss. Started shedding at 25, I'm 31 now.
2 weeks in I noticed my sleep deteriorating rapidly for no reason and started having creeping anxiety issues and feelings of doom.
Googled fin side effects after a month and god help me I ended up on PH, entering the worst period of my life.
Stopped cold turkey and dreaded so much about a coming crash that I basically walked myself into a major panic attack about a week after my last dose.

First 3 months
A complete roller coaster of mental issues. Intense anxiety attacks followed up by major depressive episodes and suicidal ideation every single day. In between I'd have days of weird brain pressure and a strange feeling of "empty eye sockets".
My digestion was shot to hell and I couldn't feel my member let alone gain erections. My hands would go cold and numb at times and my heart was pounding in my chest, keeping me up at night. If I did get sleep it was never longer than 2 hours.
From time to time I felt as if I was coming down with a major flu, more on that later.
Erections actually came back after a few weeks but at this point I could not care less as my brain was a pitch black pit.
For some reason my body was in a constant state of high energy. I walked 20km a day and never felt that soothing feeling of calmness or tiredness. Sleep felt more like falling unconscious than comfortably dosing off.
After reading about PFS, and the stigma it carried with it, I never made the effort of trying specialized doctors. I'm lucky my GP is very compassionate and assisted me all the way to check me up and just listen to my story.

My first blood work was done in the first few weeks post crash. Everything came back normal, although we didn't check hormonals as, by his words, they would not clarify much having no baseline to begin with.
I geared myself up for recovery by moving around a lot, eating healthy (I was on keto even before fin) and seeing my parents / friends often. I cut out all gluten, remaining sugars and caffeine.
I did get obsessed by finding that magical cure and spent a few hundred euros on supplements I didn't need, but at least I did no further damage to my body.

Month 3-6
My severe anxiety attacks settled into a general feeling of constant moderate to strong anxiety paired with an elevated heart rate. A feeling of despair and hopelessness followed me around all this time.
I asked my GP for a psychiatrist referral, who then put me on 15mg of mirtazapine to help me fix my sleep. I'm not allowed to be on SSRI's due to my job and he agreed to assist me in a "more natural" recovery.
Mirtazapine didn't do that much it seemed at first but my sleep did improve slowly, being able to sleep 4-5 hours uninterrupted at this point.
My libido came back to it's original state around month 4, which did help me further chip away at my anxiety.
I developed a stable baseline, which was still bad, but at least less so than being on this hellish brain roller coaster.
Anxiety attacks gave way to sporadic adrenaline rushes and feelings I can't otherwise describe as tiny heart orgasms.

Second blood work ordered by my psych came back with a few surprises:
- Cholesterol shot up dramatically, but so did my good cholesterol so at least no real issues there yet
- My TSH shot up from 3 to 5.5, well out of normal range
- I had recent antibodies to CMV, a virus I had during my childhood. Probably due to a weakened immune system it flared back up, most definitely explaining why I felt sick often post crash

Near the end of month 6, a few weeks before arriving here, my situation was as followed: constant moderate anxiety, light to moderate depression, broken unrefreshing sleep, and loose stool.

My situation now
Let me start of that finding this forum and the prevailing air of optimism and big dick energy was extremely refreshing after lurking PH for a few months. (I will never set foot in that place again)
Immediately after reading some topics I felt I had positive thoughts about my condition and renewed energy.
I don't like expressing my state in percentages as it feels a bit obsessive (maybe people with obsessive tendencies lean into "PFS" more often?) but here goes:
I'm at a good 75% now, my low being 30%, now gearing up to give it everything to go well past 100%!

My followup blood work to check up my thyroids for subclinical hypothyroidism came back with another surprise: my TSH is now back down to 2.9. So my body is giving me the green light for full recovery :-)

Just finished a 3 day water fast and started a 7 day juice fast. Getting used to cold showers and meditating more often. Got some herbs ordered to cycle after and just keep doing what I was doing.

Some thoughts
During my first few months my mother told me she had a major hypochondrial episode at the age of 30 (around my age). She was convinced she had cancer and was dying. This was caused by bottled up anxiety concerning her mothers fight and death to cancer at a young age.
She expressed many of the same symptoms I was going through. She even had CMV flare up again just like me.
This makes me echo the thought that a lot of what I'm going through is at least partly due to severe health anxiety.
Finasteride may have rocked the boat in a brutal way, but convincing myself I was going to drown 24/7 did not do me any favors.

I've been living inside my own head for months and PFS has been taking center stage for too long now. This post has been therapeutic but I most likely wont be a very active poster.
I do promise I'll return to post about a full recovery. Maybe that will help others with my symptoms find a bit of calm and hope.

Keep that big dick energy going, and thanks for that extra bit of motivation and optimism I dearly needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojo

Hi everyone,

My story on Finasteride
Took it for 1 month, dosing 1mg every 3 days. Finally felt ecstatic about doing something about my hair loss. Started shedding at 25, I'm 31 now.
2 weeks in I noticed my sleep deteriorating rapidly for no reason and started having creeping anxiety issues and feelings of doom.
Googled fin side effects after a month and god help me I ended up on PH, entering the worst period of my life.
Stopped cold turkey and dreaded so much about a coming crash that I basically walked myself into a major panic attack about a week after my last dose.

First 3 months
A complete roller coaster of mental issues. Intense anxiety attacks followed up by major depressive episodes and suicidal ideation every single day. In between I'd have days of weird brain pressure and a strange feeling of "empty eye sockets".
My digestion was shot to hell and I couldn't feel my member let alone gain erections. My hands would go cold and numb at times and my heart was pounding in my chest, keeping me up at night. If I did get sleep it was never longer than 2 hours.
From time to time I felt as if I was coming down with a major flu, more on that later.
Erections actually came back after a few weeks but at this point I could not care less as my brain was a pitch black pit.
For some reason my body was in a constant state of high energy. I walked 20km a day and never felt that soothing feeling of calmness or tiredness. Sleep felt more like falling unconscious than comfortably dosing off.
After reading about PFS, and the stigma it carried with it, I never made the effort of trying specialized doctors. I'm lucky my GP is very compassionate and assisted me all the way to check me up and just listen to my story.

My first blood work was done in the first few weeks post crash. Everything came back normal, although we didn't check hormonals as, by his words, they would not clarify much having no baseline to begin with.
I geared myself up for recovery by moving around a lot, eating healthy (I was on keto even before fin) and seeing my parents / friends often. I cut out all gluten, remaining sugars and caffeine.
I did get obsessed by finding that magical cure and spent a few hundred euros on supplements I didn't need, but at least I did no further damage to my body.

Month 3-6
My severe anxiety attacks settled into a general feeling of constant moderate to strong anxiety paired with an elevated heart rate. A feeling of despair and hopelessness followed me around all this time.
I asked my GP for a psychiatrist referral, who then put me on 15mg of mirtazapine to help me fix my sleep. I'm not allowed to be on SSRI's due to my job and he agreed to assist me in a "more natural" recovery.
Mirtazapine didn't do that much it seemed at first but my sleep did improve slowly, being able to sleep 4-5 hours uninterrupted at this point.
My libido came back to it's original state around month 4, which did help me further chip away at my anxiety.
I developed a stable baseline, which was still bad, but at least less so than being on this hellish brain roller coaster.
Anxiety attacks gave way to sporadic adrenaline rushes and feelings I can't otherwise describe as tiny heart orgasms.

Second blood work ordered by my psych came back with a few surprises:
- Cholesterol shot up dramatically, but so did my good cholesterol so at least no real issues there yet
- My TSH shot up from 3 to 5.5, well out of normal range
- I had recent antibodies to CMV, a virus I had during my childhood. Probably due to a weakened immune system it flared back up, most definitely explaining why I felt sick often post crash

Near the end of month 6, a few weeks before arriving here, my situation was as followed: constant moderate anxiety, light to moderate depression, broken unrefreshing sleep, and loose stool.

My situation now
Let me start of that finding this forum and the prevailing air of optimism and big dick energy was extremely refreshing after lurking PH for a few months. (I will never set foot in that place again)
Immediately after reading some topics I felt I had positive thoughts about my condition and renewed energy.
I don't like expressing my state in percentages as it feels a bit obsessive (maybe people with obsessive tendencies lean into "PFS" more often?) but here goes:
I'm at a good 75% now, my low being 30%, now gearing up to give it everything to go well past 100%!

My followup blood work to check up my thyroids for subclinical hypothyroidism came back with another surprise: my TSH is now back down to 2.9. So my body is giving me the green light for full recovery :-)

Just finished a 3 day water fast and started a 7 day juice fast. Getting used to cold showers and meditating more often. Got some herbs ordered to cycle after and just keep doing what I was doing.

Some thoughts
During my first few months my mother told me she had a major hypochondrial episode at the age of 30 (around my age). She was convinced she had cancer and was dying. This was caused by bottled up anxiety concerning her mothers fight and death to cancer at a young age.
She expressed many of the same symptoms I was going through. She even had CMV flare up again just like me.
This makes me echo the thought that a lot of what I'm going through is at least partly due to severe health anxiety.
Finasteride may have rocked the boat in a brutal way, but convincing myself I was going to drown 24/7 did not do me any favors.

I've been living inside my own head for months and PFS has been taking center stage for too long now. This post has been therapeutic but I most likely wont be a very active poster.
I do promise I'll return to post about a full recovery. Maybe that will help others with my symptoms find a bit of calm and hope.

Keep that big dick energy going, and thanks for that extra bit of motivation and optimism I dearly needed.

---

Your story basically mirrors mine, you'll be fine bud. We'll be here if you need support, but follow what's outlined and be patient.

3 week update

My fast fixed my intestinal problems. Also, juicing was a fun thing to do and I'll do it again in the future.
Near the end of my fast my sleep got a lot worse and I had a very bad downswing that lasted a small week. Anxiety shot up drastically and started feeling feverish.
I noticed Mirtazapine pooped out on me and started causing severe lethargy in the morning together with some weird phenomenon called Hypnagogia, where you start dreaming immediately upon closing the eyes near the onset of sleep, basically inhibiting sleep as the brain is too active.
Started tapering down for 1 week from 15mg to 7.5mg and then stopped altogether. I've been off Mirtazapine for a week now and seem to have avoided any symptoms of withdrawal.
Sleep was gone for a day or 2, probably due to psychosomatic effects, but it has returned to 5-7 hours of fairly unrefreshing sleep.
Had a very nice upswing lasting a few days where I felt energetic and even happy (which has not happened a whole lot this last half a year).

The protocol:
- Cold showers are the best. I instantly feel the anxiety and depression lifting. Unfortunately its summer and pipe water isn't really that cold so the cold shock wears off after just a few seconds.
- Skin brushing feels nice, especially with the cold water.
- Started doing breathing exercises throughout the day. Especially helps when feeling anxious at work. The Wim Hoff method feels a bit weird to me, so I'm sticking with the 4-7-8 for now.
- Still not meditating enough, even though I can definitely tell it helps when I do it. Should do this more.
- Cycling 8 herbs and taking pine pollen daily. Off them all I feel MACA gives me the best boost.
- Lifting 3 days a week, sometimes go running in between.

What I should improve
- Meditate more often
- Cut down on masturbation
- Reduce screen time before bed
- Cut down nicotine usage. I stopped altogether after my first crash but picked it up again few months ago as it helped me through strong bouts of anxiety.
- Need to do something about my right hamstring that has been causing me pain for 4 months now. Maybe stretching or yoga.

Situation right now
Feeling optimistic! Apart from a strong downswing I feel like I have already improved on the protocol.
My anxiety is still present, in a mild to moderate form. Irritability and stress resilience had improved a bit.
Went down from 17 to 10 on the Hamilton depression scale these last months.
Thoughts of suicide have dissipated mostly and only coming up as an afterthought during difficult moments.
Sleep still sucks but at least its a bad 7-8 hours opposed to a bad 4-5 hours it used to be. I tend to wake up often and sleep remains shallow.

I'm very happy I kicked the Mirtazapine. I would love to go through life drug free and the motivation to do so and end up better than before PFS is giving me a lot of mental energy.

Sounds like great progress already buddy! Keep it up and you will get to your destination in no time...

Ill chime in later but just did that hamilton scale and it showed 25"Severe depression" ahahaha I don't think I even feel that depressed LOL XDD

So about a week after stopping Mirtazapine, anxiety and insomnia unfortunately decided to rear its ugly head. Last 4 days I've been getting 4 hours of sleep maximum, usually consisting of a stretch of 2 hours of nightmare fueled dreams followed by getting half an hour here and there between waking up.
Stress has been unbearable and daytime napping is completely out of the question. My last mirtazapine dose was 15 days ago now and it is extremely discouraging to be back at initial crash levels of sleep. Wish I could know whether it is a PFS downswing or mirtazapine withdrawal and the vagueness of it all is slowly driving me insane.
I have some left over .5MG XR xanax laying around and they usually ensured me to have a full night sleep in the past but that seemed to stop working now.
One upside is my mood is still relatively good if I can look past the sleep deprivation symptoms and I'm having no intense anxiety / fear / panic episodes like I did post crash.

My sleep stack consists of:
- magnesium citrate
- glycine
- zizyphus extract
- melatonin drops
- CBD drops

Honestly the psychological aspect of this is running me down. I know for a fact that I've been doing better and better every month, especially this last month on the protocol, but when I go down I'm always ending up second guessing my recovery and telling me I was just fooling myself.
Wish I had never taken mirtazapine. At least then I'd be able to track my PFS recovery without muddying the waters.

I'm giving it a month. But after that I don't know if I'm strong enough to deny myself going back on a lower dose of mirtazapine.

My sleep also got back to bad after quitting mirtazapine so it's probably your real pfs sleep your experiencing now.

Ehh I’d say my sleep was a lot better than whatever this is just before I got on the mirt. I was usually able to knock out an hour or 4-5 in one go. Waking up after 2 and then tossing and turning through terrible anxiety is something I had in the first 1 or 2 months of PFS. You sure you didn’t get some rebound anxiety from withdrawing? The withdrawal duration seems to be all over the place for different people. Some get a few nights of bad sleep, others experience crushing anxiety and insomnia for months.

In all honesty mirtazapine never seemed to do much for me, apart from some unwanted side effects. (Unless my progress these last 3 months was due to mirt, in which case I don’t know if it might be better to go back on and withdraw later when I feel PFS is under control). It feels as if my brain decided mirt wasn’t going to be very helpful but at the same time primed me up for withdrawal either way. Very frustrating.

Yeah right off mirtazapine sleep was very bad so yeah it's got a bit better i would say and its easier to get up in the morning now. It didn't give me much anxiety or depression relief i feel pretty much the same off it.

Nearing 2 months into protocol,

Getting off Mirtazapine was quite something. First week was ok, even felt slightly better. Second week I was a complete insomniac. Third - fourth week sleep started to return but I had intense episodes of fear and anxiety.
Right now that is starting to slowly dissipate but I'm left with a racing mind that makes breathwork or meditating from very challenging to near impossible. Not really sure how to deal with this apart from going for long walks.
I'm having rare nights where I manage to sleep for 5 hours, wake up and knock out another 2-3, waking up fresh and feeling almost symptom free the entire day. Most other nights I sleep for 2-3 hours and wake up to heart palpitations and anxiety, get up for an hour, get back in etc etc..

The weird thing is I feel my anxiety now is different from my anxiety at the start of this whole PFS business. Is there anyone who can relate? It's almost as if my current issues are more like a post trauma aftermath.
Like I'm almost ready to say I don't have PFS at all and all I'm left with is some form of PTSD after 150% worrying about my health and experiencing severe anxiety / insomnia for months on end.

I'll continue with the protocol, as it's healthy and most elements are prime for dealing with anxiety disorders anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojo

Nearing 2 months into protocol,

Getting off Mirtazapine was quite something. First week was ok, even felt slightly better. Second week I was a complete insomniac. Third - fourth week sleep started to return but I had intense episodes of fear and anxiety.
Right now that is starting to slowly dissipate but I'm left with a racing mind that makes breathwork or meditating from very challenging to near impossible. Not really sure how to deal with this apart from going for long walks.
I'm having rare nights where I manage to sleep for 5 hours, wake up and knock out another 2-3, waking up fresh and feeling almost symptom free the entire day. Most other nights I sleep for 2-3 hours and wake up to heart palpitations and anxiety, get up for an hour, get back in etc etc..

The weird thing is I feel my anxiety now is different from my anxiety at the start of this whole PFS business. Is there anyone who can relate? It's almost as if my current issues are more like a post trauma aftermath.
Like I'm almost ready to say I don't have PFS at all and all I'm left with is some form of PTSD after 150% worrying about my health and experiencing severe anxiety / insomnia for months on end.

I'll continue with the protocol, as it's healthy and most elements are prime for dealing with anxiety disorders anyway.

---

"Big dick energy" lol.....I like it.

Listen...regardless of what you are suffering from, this protocol, if given enough time and consistency, will bring your body and mind back into homeostasis. At this point, it doesn't matter what you're suffering from, what matters is stopping the suffering and bringing yourself into a more livable reality. Then, and only then can you start to pin point different angles. For now though, you need to focus on the big picture. Get your outline laid out and colors situated. Once the picture starts to come together, you can then worry about the shading.

Follow the instructions 100% for the next six months before making any other decisions. By that time you'll see that everything you need is here.

Good luck.

Just a quick check in. I started doing the wim hoff method after breakfast instead of conventional breath work and it manages to bring my head in a calm enough state to get back into meditating, feels awesome.

I can definitely tell I’m making progress again after the mirtazapine withdrawal. Just had 3 days of feeling calm and composed. Had a good quality 5 hours every night, followed by some nightly tea sipping and another 3 hours of heavy non-nightmare dreaming. Waking up refreshed and calm is such a blessing.

Getting stronger in the gym. Listening and enjoying music again. Having plans for the future. Chatting up a girl. Truly a new wave of energy and I’m grabbing on with both hands. Even if it gets worse again, I know for a fact I can get better. Thanks for the guidance CD.

I ordered some quality Kava to maybe help take the edge off from time to time. Lets see how that goes.

One other thing: after being in this hole for 8 months now, I’ve learned so much about myself and learned to appreciate simple things much more. I truly believe going through this and coming out at the end will change me as a human being. This is going to sound weird but: this was and still is hell from time to time. But when I finally get out of this I would not want anyone to take this experience away from me. I will own this and it will make me stronger than ever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mojo

I will own this and it will make me stronger than ever.

---

It most certainly will, in more ways then you can now imagine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojo

One other thing: after being in this hole for 8 months now, I’ve learned so much about myself and learned to appreciate simple things much more. I truly believe going through this and coming out at the end will change me as a human being. This is going to sound weird but: this was and still is hell from time to time. But when I finally get out of this I would not want anyone to take this experience away from me. I will own this and it will make me stronger than ever.

---

Well said brother.

Checking in 4 months on the protocol.

Unfortunately my road is a rocky one. I had to withdraw on mirtazapine during recovery which is now 3 months ago, and on top of that I kicked xanax off the list as well as of 1 month ago now. I used a light dose of xanax for half a year to alleviate anxiety.
However at some point in the last month of use I noticed my dose not doing anything for me anymore and became convinced that at least some of my anxiety was attributed to inter dose withdrawals. I can only imagine what stopping a higher, more long term dose would feel like. It would definitely be up there with the most hardcore PFS caused anxiety/depression.

Anyway, my sleep is returning at a glacial pace. Falling asleep is no longer a real problem apart from some freak days where anxiety will just keep me up forever, where I spend more time on the way to the bathroom than in my bed. Staying asleep is still a problem but I have broken a milestone of getting an average of 4 hours before wakeup, for which I'm already grateful.
There are days where my anxiety and depression seem to almost fully lift, but will usually be omnipresent in a soft constant uncomfortable state. Overall it does feel as if the whole package is improving slowly. Cold showers, exercise and meditation remain key here. I notice being mindful is getting easier and more spontaneous. I often have moments throughout the day where I just pause at the thought of just being, feeling the wind or the weight of my body. This helps me break the cycle of racing thoughts and reinforces a positive feeling of improvements. The thing that kills me most about the mental side effects is that moment where you do down again after a good spell and your brain convinces me any upswing didn’t really happen and that I will be stuck in this hole forever. A complete mindfuck.

I had my run with Kava. Unfortunately I never really got the relaxing effect of it and it just ended up making my mouth numb and my kidneys hurt.
Got a small bag of Kratom now to test out. However, it acts as an opiate so no need to explain the dangers there.
I still smoke cigarettes from time to time. It helps cope with anxiety. I told myself I'd quit one thing at a time, first the anti depressant, then the xanax, and nicotine for last. It's been quite the battle and it keeps making me postpone quitting.
While releasing so many free radicals into my body will most likely hinder reaching proper homeostasis, I keep telling myself it's probably not that bad. Cigarettes suck lmao

My libido department is no longer lacking at all. It's becoming a struggle to not wanting to relieve myself at least once a day. It puts me in an awkward spot as I urge for a new sexual partner, but on the other hand don't feel ready for it mentally quite just yet. Usually libido vanished when entering a strong downswing, but I haven't felt it leave for quite a while now.

I'm on the fence about ordering some andro gel. I keep thinking it will fuck over my sleep and cause anxiety. In 2 months I'll be half a year in and will probably bite the bullet.

Some tips if anyone would be interested:

- Drink loads of water during the day but stop drinking anything a few hours before bed so you don't have to wake up to pee all the time.
- Eat animal organ meats like liver. They are probably the most nutritional thing on this planet and loaded with the entire range of B vitamins.
- If you have an extreme problem with racing thoughts before bed, I found smoking a light dose of high CBD cannabis helped me calm my thoughts down.
- In case you are like me and anxiety/depression is your main symptom, chances are you are getting slight PTSD triggers from your surroundings, especially during covid lockdown. I found that redecorating or rearranging my apartment, and changing up routines mitigates some of the anxiety. I might plan to stay over with my parents for a few weeks in the future to completely overhaul my perspective on things for a bit.
- If you have problems with cold showers try starting hot and then lower the temperature to minimum slowly. Then stand under the cold water long enough to start feeling numb or wobbly. Burst yourself with a wave of hot water right after and more often than not you can feel the surge of dopamine hitting you.

Guess that's it for now. It's funny how I keep thinking of ways to adhere to the protocol better, but in the end it's just not that complicated. When it becomes routine I end up thinking I'm not doing enough because it doesn't really seem like that big of an investment. Oh well, I'm still struggling mentally, quite hard from time to time, but it does feel like every month is a little better than the previous one.

Slowly trucking along. At this pace I'd expect to write a recovery story in like half a year or so. Keep your chin up everybody and keep grinding away.

My last post of the year! Nearing 1 year of fighting and 6 months on TMO.

After reading some more about UltraHard, I decided to bite the bullet and prepare for a cycle so I ordered a bottle. I wanted to make sure I have the best base possible before I cycle so I did another 5day water fast and 3 day juice about a month ago.

Immediately after the fast I slept a whole night for the first time in a year without pharmaceutical aids. I snuck in a B complex in my stack but after a few days I started experiencing severe anxiety and insomnia again. No idea if it is related to B’s but I have read about similar experiences so I binned them. Got better relatively soon after.

My last blood test came up with:

- elevated cholesterol
- severely elevated ferritin
- borderline out of high range Estrone
- some kidney marker out of range

Unfortunately I need to get tested now for Hemochromatosis. Got a genetics test lined up in januari to check if its hereditary or systemic inflammation. Some Hemo symptoms include bad sleep, depression, loss of libido and painful joints / muscles. Remedy is simple: donate blood or have it drained. Went for an initial blood donation and no idea if it is coincidence but afterwards my anxiety lessened and my baseline sleep improved to about 5 hours before wakeup.

I got back into Kava to calm down winded evenings, seems to work on and off.

Tried Kratom. It most definitely helps with anxiety and depression. But, its a drug. And it definitely feels like one. I’ve woken up after surgery once in a warm cozy glowy daze, which I assume was caused by opiates, and after my first kratom dose I felt the same. Didn’t help me sleep for shit but I did not give a shit as I felt amazing. This stuff is downright powerful and most certainly dangerously addictive. And it comes with it’s own withdrawals so dabble on your own discretion. I plan on using it once or twice a week to relieve depression when needed.

Looking forward to 2021. I’ve made a lot of progress this last half a year I’ve been on TMO. During this time I have now kicked mirtazapine, xanax and smoking. I’m certain this following year is the one where I recover.
(If they open the goddamn gyms that is..)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojo

My last post of the year! Nearing 1 year of fighting and 6 months on TMO.

After reading some more about UltraHard, I decided to bite the bullet and prepare for a cycle so I ordered a bottle. I wanted to make sure I have the best base possible before I cycle so I did another 5day water fast and 3 day juice about a month ago.

Immediately after the fast I slept a whole night for the first time in a year without pharmaceutical aids. I snuck in a B complex in my stack but after a few days I started experiencing severe anxiety and insomnia again. No idea if it is related to B’s but I have read about similar experiences so I binned them. Got better relatively soon after.

My last blood test came up with:

- elevated cholesterol
- severely elevated ferritin
- borderline out of high range Estrone
- some kidney marker out of range

Unfortunately I need to get tested now for Hemochromatosis. Got a genetics test lined up in januari to check if its hereditary or systemic inflammation. Some Hemo symptoms include bad sleep, depression, loss of libido and painful joints / muscles. Remedy is simple: donate blood or have it drained. Went for an initial blood donation and no idea if it is coincidence but afterwards my anxiety lessened and my baseline sleep improved to about 5 hours before wakeup.

I got back into Kava to calm down winded evenings, seems to work on and off.

Tried Kratom. It most definitely helps with anxiety and depression. But, its a drug. And it definitely feels like one. I’ve woken up after surgery once in a warm cozy glowy daze, which I assume was caused by opiates, and after my first kratom dose I felt the same. Didn’t help me sleep for shit but I did not give a shit as I felt amazing. This stuff is downright powerful and most certainly dangerously addictive. And it comes with it’s own withdrawals so dabble on your own discretion. I plan on using it once or twice a week to relieve depression when needed.

Looking forward to 2021. I’ve made a lot of progress this last half a year I’ve been on TMO. During this time I have now kicked mirtazapine, xanax and smoking. I’m certain this following year is the one where I recover.
(If they open the goddamn gyms that is..)

---

Congrats on your progress and kicking the stuff you did bro

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojo

My last post of the year! Nearing 1 year of fighting and 6 months on TMO.

After reading some more about UltraHard, I decided to bite the bullet and prepare for a cycle so I ordered a bottle. I wanted to make sure I have the best base possible before I cycle so I did another 5day water fast and 3 day juice about a month ago.

Immediately after the fast I slept a whole night for the first time in a year without pharmaceutical aids. I snuck in a B complex in my stack but after a few days I started experiencing severe anxiety and insomnia again. No idea if it is related to B’s but I have read about similar experiences so I binned them. Got better relatively soon after.

My last blood test came up with:

- elevated cholesterol
- severely elevated ferritin
- borderline out of high range Estrone
- some kidney marker out of range

Unfortunately I need to get tested now for Hemochromatosis. Got a genetics test lined up in januari to check if its hereditary or systemic inflammation. Some Hemo symptoms include bad sleep, depression, loss of libido and painful joints / muscles. Remedy is simple: donate blood or have it drained. Went for an initial blood donation and no idea if it is coincidence but afterwards my anxiety lessened and my baseline sleep improved to about 5 hours before wakeup.

I got back into Kava to calm down winded evenings, seems to work on and off.

Tried Kratom. It most definitely helps with anxiety and depression. But, its a drug. And it definitely feels like one. I’ve woken up after surgery once in a warm cozy glowy daze, which I assume was caused by opiates, and after my first kratom dose I felt the same. Didn’t help me sleep for shit but I did not give a shit as I felt amazing. This stuff is downright powerful and most certainly dangerously addictive. And it comes with it’s own withdrawals so dabble on your own discretion. I plan on using it once or twice a week to relieve depression when needed.

Looking forward to 2021. I’ve made a lot of progress this last half a year I’ve been on TMO. During this time I have now kicked mirtazapine, xanax and smoking. I’m certain this following year is the one where I recover.
(If they open the goddamn gyms that is..)

---

Congrat's on getting off the pharms, that's a feat in it's own right, but a word of advice, stay away from the kratom. Not only is it very addictive, it lowers testosterone, as do all things the tickle the opiate receptor. Your best bet is to just power through, stay true to the protocol as much as possible and the depression and anxiety will eventually work themselves out, as will everything else.

Also, you want to stay away from any pharms for sleep. As a matter of fact, ALL pharms in general will simply slow down your progress on the protocol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cdsnuts

Congrat's on getting off the pharms, that's a feat in it's own right, but a word of advice, stay away from the kratom. Not only is it very addictive, it lowers testosterone, as do all things the tickle the opiate receptor. Your best bet is to just power through, stay true to the protocol as much as possible and the depression and anxiety will eventually work themselves out, as will everything else.

Also, you want to stay away from any pharms for sleep. As a matter of fact, ALL pharms in general will simply slow down your progress on the protocol.

---

Point taken. I have been sporadically using it for a little less than a month now and I can tell it is lowering my drive a bit. It has however helped a ton in the anxiety department. My dose was very mild (2-3 grams few hours before sleep, few times a week). It put me in a state that elevated meditation to another level and made sleeping so much easier. Haven’t used any for 4 days now and my drive is bouncing back. I have like a hundred ish grams left and just knowing its there in my closet gives me some mental reassurance that I’ve got some deus ex machina hidden away in case I’m hit with some drastic anxiety. It’s serving more as a mental help right now than an actual substance.

But yea, my SHBG was high on my last test along with low T and high E. So I do have to watch out with that stuff.

I had some DIM and boron coming to me in the mail but apparently that got lost somewhere. Planned on supplementing those 2 to lower SHBG a bit. Just a bit worried that decreasing SHBG will cause my E to rise as its elevated to inhibit the excess E from binding if I understood correctly.

I’ve been feeling really well this last week. A lot better than I would have come to expect. I feel like my progress has shifted into a higher gear. I’ve got a bottle of ultrahard on hand, which I was planning to cycle a few months from now. But right now I’m not thinking about it and just enjoying some sunny anxiety free days.

Gonna see what the blood doc says about my iron. If I have to donate blood I can’t be using prohormones, so that is something I have to take into consideration.

Small update,

I wolfed down on a cheezy pizza for the first time in a year. The craving was just too much. Woke up that night after a few hours with heart palpitations, sweat and nightmares. So note to self to not do that again for the time being.

Other than that I'm doing prime. Only remaining issues I have is waking up unrefreshed with some annoying brain fog even after 7 hours of sleep, some minor anxiety / panicky feelings at random points during the day and since my last fast my libido has been lowered a bit.

My central heating broke down apparently. Took me a while to notice as I take cold showers anyway and generally don't turn on the heating much. Funny how this just doesn't feel like a big problem. Covid is preventing from a technician coming by on a speedy notice but I don't really care that much.

Waiting for my genetics test to see if I have hereditary Hemochromatosis. My bet is that I don't have it and my ferritin is elevated due to system wide inflammation. I do wonder whether the ferritin is messing with my sleep.

Added a day of DIM to my herb rotation. Together with some additional Boron supplementation to attempt to lower my high SHBG / E.

My order of a near infrared red light therapy LED box arrived yday. I ordered it because I have had 0 opportunities to sun my boys. Like this I get to bask them in glorious 600nm-850 nm light for about 20 minutes daily. I'll let you know how that goes.
If you are interested, this is the one I ordered: NCCTRW 300W 500W 1000W Red Light Therapy Lamp 660nm Haushalt

This has been the biggest and longest upswing I've had since starting TMO. Let's hope it's my new baseline.

I'm incredibly happy with this progress and it just fills me with hope and good vibes.

Best wished for you all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojo

Small update,

I wolfed down on a cheezy pizza for the first time in a year. The craving was just too much. Woke up that night after a few hours with heart palpitations, sweat and nightmares. So note to self to not do that again for the time being.

Other than that I'm doing prime. Only remaining issues I have is waking up unrefreshed with some annoying brain fog even after 7 hours of sleep, some minor anxiety / panicky feelings at random points during the day and since my last fast my libido has been lowered a bit.

My central heating broke down apparently. Took me a while to notice as I take cold showers anyway and generally don't turn on the heating much. Funny how this just doesn't feel like a big problem. Covid is preventing from a technician coming by on a speedy notice but I don't really care that much.

Waiting for my genetics test to see if I have hereditary Hemochromatosis. My bet is that I don't have it and my ferritin is elevated due to system wide inflammation. I do wonder whether the ferritin is messing with my sleep.

Added a day of DIM to my herb rotation. Together with some additional Boron supplementation to attempt to lower my high SHBG / E.

My order of a near infrared red light therapy LED box arrived yday. I ordered it because I have had 0 opportunities to sun my boys. Like this I get to bask them in glorious 600nm-850 nm light for about 20 minutes daily. I'll let you know how that goes.
If you are interested, this is the one I ordered: NCCTRW 300W 500W 1000W Red Light Therapy Lamp 660nm Haushalt

This has been the biggest and longest upswing I've had since starting TMO. Let's hope it's my new baseline.

I'm incredibly happy with this progress and it just fills me with hope and good vibes.

Best wished for you all.

---

Keep it up and you'll be making a recovery post sooner rather then later. Good job.

Hemo test came back. Seems it’s inflammation and not iron disease. Ferritin levels dropped sharply as well. Seems to coincide with having a fairly good upswing and doing better generally.

Had a very good 4 weeks. Some anxiety here and there, some bad nights, some sleepless still. But overall best month I’ve had since crashing. Unfortunately I’ve been hit hard by an anxiety wave last few days where I just can’t seem to catch a break. Sleep is terrible, mind is racing, I can’t even meditate without freaking out. Like, even with my eyes closed they can’t stop moving around and thoughts race through my head so fast I can’t even tell what I’m thinking off. Having these extremely intense feelings of terror and fear that prick my heart for like a fraction of a second. Not enough to send me into a panic attack, but enough to leave me unsettled and make sleep impossible. Saved some kratom for this exact scenario and it helps me cope. Wish I had some weed left over for the racing thoughts but I need to make a trip to the netherlands soon. I know it’s just a wave I have to ride out so I’m not too depressed about it.

Been eating more sugar lately. Might be that.

Libido has been good. I can’t tell for sure if the lamp is rubbing off on me but I’m having sex dreams again and waking up to boners p much every morning.

Gym’s still closed and it’s pissing me off. I need to get under a weight and into a sauna. Still sitting on this damn ultrahard bottle. I only want to break it out when I’m lifting again.

Sorry for the negative tone, thought I’d try and reverse jinx myself for once 😅

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojo

Hemo test came back. Seems it’s inflammation and not iron disease. Ferritin levels dropped sharply as well. Seems to coincide with having a fairly good upswing and doing better generally.

Had a very good 4 weeks. Some anxiety here and there, some bad nights, some sleepless still. But overall best month I’ve had since crashing. Unfortunately I’ve been hit hard by an anxiety wave last few days where I just can’t seem to catch a break. Sleep is terrible, mind is racing, I can’t even meditate without freaking out. Like, even with my eyes closed they can’t stop moving around and thoughts race through my head so fast I can’t even tell what I’m thinking off. Having these extremely intense feelings of terror and fear that prick my heart for like a fraction of a second. Not enough to send me into a panic attack, but enough to leave me unsettled and make sleep impossible. Saved some kratom for this exact scenario and it helps me cope. Wish I had some weed left over for the racing thoughts but I need to make a trip to the netherlands soon. I know it’s just a wave I have to ride out so I’m not too depressed about it.

Been eating more sugar lately. Might be that.

Libido has been good. I can’t tell for sure if the lamp is rubbing off on me but I’m having sex dreams again and waking up to boners p much every morning.

Gym’s still closed and it’s pissing me off. I need to get under a weight and into a sauna. Still sitting on this damn ultrahard bottle. I only want to break it out when I’m lifting again.

Sorry for the negative tone, thought I’d try and reverse jinx myself for once ��

---

Stay away from the kratom. It's just a bandaid and it will cause you to reach for it every time you have anxiety. This isn't a good scenario.

When you get like that........take a cold shower......breathe......try and meditate.....or, force yourself to do calisthenics to burn off the nervous energy. Or you could always take some of this Blue Vervain | Total Male Optimization

You just have to make it through those times without taking anything that's going to set you back. You'll be better for it when you do.

I hear you. Was taking a tiny single dose of 1g in the afternoon, but I understand it’s bad conditioning. The belief I can tackle this without bandaids will help me in the long run. I just wish it didn’t work so goddamn well, it’s like an instant fix. Nature can be cruel.

Bag is finished anyway now so it was a nice run. Thanks for the input.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mojo

I hear you. Was taking a tiny single dose of 1g in the afternoon, but I understand it’s bad conditioning. The belief I can tackle this without bandaids will help me in the long run. I just wish it didn’t work so goddamn well, it’s like an instant fix. Nature can be cruel.

Bag is finished anyway now so it was a nice run. Thanks for the input.

---

Good, you understand. You put it perfectly well.....conditioning.....yes. NEGATIVE conditioning. That's how many of the pharmaceuticals work....instant fix. But the price you pay isn't worth it. Or, as I always say, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

By the way....the blue vervain works great for this and it's not habit forming. You can take as much as you need until you feel content. Try it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojo

I ended up on PH, entering the worst period of my life.
Stopped cold turkey and dreaded so much about a coming crash that I basically walked myself into a major panic attack about a week after my last dose.

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What is PH if you don't mind me asking?


Also, maybe I missed it, but did you detail your diet at all in this thread? If not, what is your diet like?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BBG

What is PH if you don't mind me asking?


Also, maybe I missed it, but did you detail your diet at all in this thread? If not, what is your diet like?

---

Bro....they are ALL here for the same thing, for the most part. They all have a specific set of things to follow....diet being one of them. PH (Propecia help)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BBG

What is PH if you don't mind me asking?


Also, maybe I missed it, but did you detail your diet at all in this thread? If not, what is your diet like?

---

As CD said, following a paleo diet as per his protocol. Though I sometimes get a bit of gluten or artificial sweeteners as a treat. At some point I might try out keto again. I did that for a year before this whole ordeal and quite liked the effects it had on me.

And PH is propeciahelp yes. A forum where people try to one up eachother on who want to commit suicide the hardest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojo

As CD said, following a paleo diet as per his protocol. Though I sometimes get a bit of gluten or artificial sweeteners as a treat. At some point I might try out keto again. I did that for a year before this whole ordeal and quite liked the effects it had on me.

And PH is propeciahelp yes. A forum where people try to one up eachother on who want to commit suicide the hardest.

---

The Paleo diet, in it's strictest form, is basically the same as the keto diet with a few small details changed. Add in the backloading at night and that's when the hormonal goodies come.

Ordered some Blue Vervain. Very curious about this one.
Also bought some avena sativa and some grapefruit seed extract. Its starting to really dawn on me just how many supplements I have in my kitchen. I stopped caring at some point and just felt like trying out everything.
I’m basically being paid to sit at home right now and do whatever, plus I’m making a fair bit day trading on the side, so money is not a real issue atm.

I’ve got a new girlfriend and had sex again for the first time since I crashed over a year ago. That was definitely a hurdle but I’m happy to report everything is still functioning! I was terrified of the thought of having someone next to me while I’m tossing and turning through insomnia and then getting up in the middle of the night to rigorously mix up some albizia in the kitchen. Luckily she was understanding :-)

My anxiety downswing is unfortunately still active. It’s just always present in the background, causing worry and uneasiness.
I can manage it during the day. But I can’t fight it when I’m asleep. Tend to wake up often to terrors that just ruin my day. Cold showers and breath work at night help to get back to sleep at some point but I’m just so damn tired of waking up and I really really just want to get done with this.

Good news is it seems that brain pressure / fog is now a thing of the past, even during this downswing and lack of sleep. Overall, even though I still don’t sleep enough, it feels like any sleep I get is quality sleep. I pretty much always feel rested to some degree. Happy about this one as previously it often felt like my brain didn’t know how to sleep anymore. As if my entire night was unfulfilling stage 2 zombie sleep.

Going to start my first UH cycle soon. Posted a new thread to log it with some questions beforehand: Question before I start my first UH cycle

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojo

Ordered some Blue Vervain. Very curious about this one.
Also bought some avena sativa and some grapefruit seed extract. Its starting to really dawn on me just how many supplements I have in my kitchen. I stopped caring at some point and just felt like trying out everything.
I’m basically being paid to sit at home right now and do whatever, plus I’m making a fair bit day trading on the side, so money is not a real issue atm.

I’ve got a new girlfriend and had sex again for the first time since I crashed over a year ago. That was definitely a hurdle but I’m happy to report everything is still functioning! I was terrified of the thought of having someone next to me while I’m tossing and turning through insomnia and then getting up in the middle of the night to rigorously mix up some albizia in the kitchen. Luckily she was understanding :-)

My anxiety downswing is unfortunately still active. It’s just always present in the background, causing worry and uneasiness.
I can manage it during the day. But I can’t fight it when I’m asleep. Tend to wake up often to terrors that just ruin my day. Cold showers and breath work at night help to get back to sleep at some point but I’m just so damn tired of waking up and I really really just want to get done with this.

Good news is it seems that brain pressure / fog is now a thing of the past, even during this downswing and lack of sleep. Overall, even though I still don’t sleep enough, it feels like any sleep I get is quality sleep. I pretty much always feel rested to some degree. Happy about this one as previously it often felt like my brain didn’t know how to sleep anymore. As if my entire night was unfulfilling stage 2 zombie sleep.

Going to start my first UH cycle soon. Posted a new thread to log it with some questions beforehand: Question before I start my first UH cycle

---

I'm curious to know whether you like the blue vervain. It's still one of my favorites that I take at night when I sit and am done with the day.

Last update for a while.

I’ve been feeling better recently. Probably attributed to a number of things.

I’m nearing the end of my UH cycle. Although throughout the entire thing I have not noticed any immediately obvious results my overal stress levels have gone down slowly. I tend to not have as many nightmares or night time awakenings due to heart palpitations.

I went to see an endocrinologist that tested my neurotransmitter metabolites in night time urine. My dopamine was slightly high, neroephinephrine too high and serotonin to low. He told me to take Saffron supplementation to raise serotonin. I started to combo this with 5htp at night. During the day I also tried supplementing with xiao yao san, a chinese herb that boosts allopregnanolone biosynthesis according to some sparse research.

On top of this I have doubled down on working on my mental health. I got out of the PFS mindset as much as I could and started treating my remaining symptoms as PTSD.

Meditation wise I have discovered a method that works really well for me personally to release bodily tension. When I close my eyes during breathing exercises I imagine my body to weigh a ton and I try to mentally press myself down into the couch. If I then target that feeling towards my heart more often than not I can feel the tension release and it feels as if a weight has been lifted of my chest. I know this is a vague explanation but it works for me.

Overal I’m doing ok. Not there yet but getting close. I’m going to take a leave from posting for a bit to hopefully fully escape this nightmare feeling that has been following me around for over a year now. There are times I feel like I’m really close to make a sort of recovery post. But my sleep is still too inconsistent and anxiety sometimes gets the best of me.

I’ll be back in the future, hopefully with good news. Take care and continue fighting!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojo

Last update for a while.

I’ve been feeling better recently. Probably attributed to a number of things.

I’m nearing the end of my UH cycle. Although throughout the entire thing I have not noticed any immediately obvious results my overal stress levels have gone down slowly. I tend to not have as many nightmares or night time awakenings due to heart palpitations.

I went to see an endocrinologist that tested my neurotransmitter metabolites in night time urine. My dopamine was slightly high, neroephinephrine too high and serotonin to low. He told me to take Saffron supplementation to raise serotonin. I started to combo this with 5htp at night. During the day I also tried supplementing with xiao yao san, a chinese herb that boosts allopregnanolone biosynthesis according to some sparse research.

On top of this I have doubled down on working on my mental health. I got out of the PFS mindset as much as I could and started treating my remaining symptoms as PTSD.

Meditation wise I have discovered a method that works really well for me personally to release bodily tension. When I close my eyes during breathing exercises I imagine my body to weigh a ton and I try to mentally press myself down into the couch. If I then target that feeling towards my heart more often than not I can feel the tension release and it feels as if a weight has been lifted of my chest. I know this is a vague explanation but it works for me.

Overal I’m doing ok. Not there yet but getting close. I’m going to take a leave from posting for a bit to hopefully fully escape this nightmare feeling that has been following me around for over a year now. There are times I feel like I’m really close to make a sort of recovery post. But my sleep is still too inconsistent and anxiety sometimes gets the best of me.

I’ll be back in the future, hopefully with good news. Take care and continue fighting!

---

The recovery will comes when it comes. And when it does, please come back and make your recovery known to the world. Until then, enjoy your spring time my man.

Hi all, long time no see, lots of new faces which is sad but also positive in a way since more people can find some hope.

I was doing a lot better for a long time but working lots of early hours this last few months messed up my sleep so much that I’m crashing again on the mental front. Luckily work is dying down again so I’ll have lots of time this fall to get back on protocol 100%. Also requested a part time for next year to give myself some leeway.

It’s frustrating since most people report mental sides to go away before sexual ones. For me it has been the other way around. Sexually I’m feeling as frisky as I was before fin but I still have some serious mental problems that drag on. Short episodes of fairly strong depression followed by a strange form of anxiety.

I no longer experience panic attacks like I did in the beginning and my agoraphobia has dissapeared. But I’m stuck with this resurfaced feeling of dread and persistent agonizing sense of being stuck in a nightmare. I don’t know if it is coincidence but this always coincides with very dry eyes and some agitation near my prefrontal cortex.

When I’m unlucky these episodes come about near night time and sleep becomes a nightmare filled chore of waking up every few hours and having to calm down.

I’m guessing my GABA pathways are still fucked and recovering those are my absolute priority.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojo

Hi all, long time no see, lots of new faces which is sad but also positive in a way since more people can find some hope.

I was doing a lot better for a long time but working lots of early hours this last few months messed up my sleep so much that I’m crashing again on the mental front. Luckily work is dying down again so I’ll have lots of time this fall to get back on protocol 100%. Also requested a part time for next year to give myself some leeway.

It’s frustrating since most people report mental sides to go away before sexual ones. For me it has been the other way around. Sexually I’m feeling as frisky as I was before fin but I still have some serious mental problems that drag on. Short episodes of fairly strong depression followed by a strange form of anxiety.

I no longer experience panic attacks like I did in the beginning and my agoraphobia has dissapeared. But I’m stuck with this resurfaced feeling of dread and persistent agonizing sense of being stuck in a nightmare. I don’t know if it is coincidence but this always coincides with very dry eyes and some agitation near my prefrontal cortex.

When I’m unlucky these episodes come about near night time and sleep becomes a nightmare filled chore of waking up every few hours and having to calm down.

I’m guessing my GABA pathways are still fucked and recovering those are my absolute priority.

---

Sorry to hear it. Simply stay the course. And yes, this is why it's so important once you "get the ball rolling" with the protocol to keep it that way. You'll get it again, and hopefully keep it this next 100% run.

Hey CD, sorry to bother but I sent you a DM I’m not sure you picked up on