Down to experiment?

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02-12-2013
nate3993

Down to experiment?

Been some discussion on Grapefruit juice and pro hormones. A study was posted by right hook saying that grapefruit juice, due to it having naringen, could actually inhibit the conversion process and therefore do no good for you. Anyone on a pro hormone willing to try this? Take 4-8 ounces of grapefruit juice with your steroid/ pro hormone. Maybe even take a slightly lower dose. See what happens after a week of it? Nothing too drastic. Don't wanna fuck up anyone's cycle. Anyone down?

Here's the article in question-

"Long Answer - While grapefruit juice does effectively inhibit CYP450 enzymes, it also contains a large amount of naringenin (22). Naringenin is extremely detrimental to a critical enzyme known as 17beta- hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (17β-HSD) type 5. 17β-HSD type 5 is perhaps the most critical enzyme in the process of prohormone conversions. This enzyme completes the conversion of all these prohormones to more powerful metabolites (diols and testosterones), which is what makes them effective muscle builders.

Naringenin has shown that it can inhibit up to 50% of this enzyme when plasma levels reach only 2.4μM. To give you an idea of just how little grapefruit juice you need to consume to reach these plasma levels, you need only 24 ounces to reach plasma levels of 6μM. If you consumed grapefruit juice every day, plasma levels of naringenin would reach well over 20μM (22). With plasma levels of 20μM, 17β-HSD would be inhibited well over 70%. This would leave you with a significantly less powerful dione based prohormone (after conversion via 3β-HSD). The below chart shows increasing levels of 17β-HSD inhibition, based on plasma levels of 20μM for each compound, naringenin is the red bar. Naringenin is also one of the few compounds in this chart that we can actually reach high plasma levels by food consumption (grapefruit juice). It should be noted that AKR1C3 is another name for 17β-HSD type 5.

So the next time you see someone recommend you try and increase prohormone bioavailability with grapefruit juice?please think again.

Reference:
Skarydov?, Lucie et al. ?AKR1C3 as a Potential Target for the Inhibitory Effect of Dietary Flavonoids.? Chemico-Biological Interactions 178.1-3 (2009): 138?144."
02-13-2013
BoneDaddy

I had to laugh a little seeing Nate post a thread asking if anyone was down to experiment! lol :cool:

I actually took my Androhard and Dermacrine and Tren from PP in grapefruit juice. The juice masked that nasty ass taste. I can honestly say it made a difference. Cycles with grapefruit juice ran better than without to me.
02-13-2013
Cobalt

Same here, AndroMASS taken with grapefruit juice hit harder.
02-13-2013
BBG

Boladrol with grapefruit juice for 2 weeks, then without for 2 weeks. I realized by the end of the last 2 weeks "man why am I not feeling nearly as much on this... then it dawned on me I had stopped the grapefruit juice"

could be placebo, but I hadn't really be cognizant of the change until afterward.
02-13-2013
BoneDaddy

Anytime I'm on cycle I tell my wife to never erase the grapefruit juice off of the shopping list. Just leave it and get it everytime.
02-13-2013
nate3993

Haha. Fukin bone daddy. I really wish we could all meet up, sit down and
Just hang out. A swole source meet up would be pretty gangster.

But back on topic, TAKE THAT right hook. Lol
02-13-2013
h2s

Quote:

Originally Posted by nate3993

Haha. Fukin bone daddy. I really wish we could all meet up, sit down and
Just hang out. A swole source meet up would be pretty gangster.

But back on topic, TAKE THAT right hook. Lol

I know you are kidding, but I wouldn't discourage someone like Right Hook from sharing emerging research.
02-13-2013
nate3993

Quote:

Originally Posted by h2s

I know you are kidding, but I wouldn't discourage someone like Right Hook from sharing emerging research.

Course not. Discussion and knowledge is ALWAYS accepted :)
02-14-2013
BoneDaddy

Quote:

Originally Posted by nate3993

Haha. Fukin bone daddy. I really wish we could all meet up, sit down and
Just hang out. A swole source meet up would be pretty gangster.

But back on topic, TAKE THAT right hook. Lol

I think we'd all need 2 days, minimum. I bet this would be a kick ass crowd to hang out with.
02-14-2013
burlyman30

Re: Down to experiment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoneDaddy

I think we'd all need 2 days, minimum. I bet this would be a kick ass crowd to hang out with.

We could all meet up at PP headquarters... oh... wait... nevermind. :(

I can tell you it was fun hanging with Matt, Eric, Climbing and Beatheart a year ago. I still keep in touch with all of them ever since then.

Edit: forgot about Rachel and her friend, too... that really added some interesting flavor to the night...
02-14-2013
Right Hook

Down to experiment?

I just saw this, but drinking gfj for two weeks would still leave a substantial amount of naringenin in your "system". I'm not sure for how long but there is pk research showing this compound accumulates in the body. It's not something that clears overnight that much I'm sure of. It's very likely to take at least a week or more.

Gfj/naringenin may not impact the metabolism of stano products (andro hard I think was stano?) as it's metabolized to stronger compounds via 17b-hsd Type 2 enzymes if I remember correctly.

It makes sense that it didn't mess with bbg's bolandiol cycle because diols are metabolized by 3b-hsd not 17b-hsd. So it may benefit that compound.

Tren I'm not sure on. I'd have to look at the structure.
02-14-2013
BBG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Right Hook

It makes sense that it didn't mess with bbg's bolandiol cycle because diols are metabolized by 3b-hsd not 17b-hsd. So it may benefit that compound.

Excellent to know! Thank RH
02-16-2013
Right Hook

A new piece of research popped up and it doesn't look good for naringenin and 3b-hsd either....

Quote:

Biol Pharm Bull. 2013;36(2):228-37.
Effect of Polyphenols on Production of Steroid Hormones from Human Adrenocortical NCI-H295R Cells.
Hasegawa E, Nakagawa S, Sato M, Tachikawa E, Yamato S.
Source
Department of Bio-Analytical Chemistry, Niigata University of Pharmacy and Applied Life Sciences.
Abstract
Modulating steroid hormone levels is a curative and preventive measure for Cushing's syndrome, aldosteronism, and various stress-triggered symptoms. Polyphenols have been reported to inhibit steroidogenic enzymes such as 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (3β-HSD) and aromatase. However, evidence for their inhibitory effects is fragmentary because it has been determined in studies with small groups of steroid hormones. To investigate the effects of steroids on complete steroidogenic pathways, comprehensive analysis of steroid hormones is necessary. Here we cultured forskolin-stimulated NCI-H295R, a human adrenocortical carcinoma cell line, in the presence of a polyphenol and employed GC-MS to simultaneously determine the levels of nine steroid hormones (pregnenolone, progesterone, deoxycorticosterone, aldosterone, 17α-hydroxyprogesterone, dehydroepiandrosterone, androstenedione, testosterone, and estradiol) in cell culture supernatant. We found that daidzein, genistein, apigenin, hesperetin, naringenin, and eriodictyol significantly reduced deoxycorticosterone and androstenedione levels (p<0.05), suggesting inhibition of 3β-HSD by these polyphenols. Apigenin was more potent than other polyphenols in increasing the levels of pregnenolone and 17α-hydroxyprogesterone, suggesting that it inhibits cytochrome P450 (CYP) 17 and CYP21, as well as 3β-HSD. Real-time reverse transcription polymerase chain reaction showed that apigenin significantly downregulated the expression levels of 3β-HSD, CYP17, and CYP21 mRNA (p<0.05). This is the first study to demonstrate the inhibitory effects of apigenin on CYP17 and CYP21.

Quote:

For example, daidzein, genistein, apigenin, and naringenin inhibit 3β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (3β-HSD).9–11) while daidzein and genistein inhibit cytochrome P450 (CYP) 21.12) In addition, isoflavones inhibit both 3β-HSD
and 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (17β-HSD).13

Quote:

Accordingly, we tested the effects of polyphenols on steroido-
genic pathways by simultaneously measuring levels of nine
steroid hormones. We found that isoflavones (daidzein and ge-
nistein), one flavone (apigenin), and three flavanones (hesper-
etin, naringenin, and eriodictyol) dose-dependently decreased
the levels of androstenedione and deoxycorticosterone pro-
duced by forskolin-stimulated NCI-H295R cells, suggesting inhibition of 3β-HSD. These inhibitory effects were in good 9 –11)
agreement with the results of previous studies.

Comprehensive understanding of steroidogenic pathways is important to understand the actions of pharmaceutical agents
inhibition of 3β-HSD. These inhibitory effects were in good 9 –11)
agreement with the results of previous studies.
02-16-2013
O_RYAN_007

Quote:

Originally Posted by nate3993

Haha. Fukin bone daddy. I really wish we could all meet up, sit down and
Just hang out. A swole source meet up would be pretty gangster.

But back on topic, TAKE THAT right hook. Lol

I tell my wife about all you crazy fuckers, a meet up would be cool as shit!
02-16-2013
O_RYAN_007

How would gfj effect the effects of say var/test/or proviron? I know pro and ah have very similar molecular structures.
02-16-2013
BBG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Right Hook

A new piece of research popped up and it doesn't look good for naringenin and 3b-hsd either....

But my placebo effect... :(

;)

- - - Updated - - -

Yes a meet up... but I'll need time to get huge. :D
02-16-2013
nate3993

Quote:

Originally Posted by O_RYAN_007

How would gfj effect the effects of say var/test/or proviron? I know pro and ah have very similar molecular structures.

very curious about this. underlined especially
02-16-2013
burlyman30

Re: Down to experiment?

Quote:

Originally Posted by O_RYAN_007

I tell my wife about all you crazy fuckers, a meet up would be cool as shit!

Mentally compromised, deficient, or unstable, personality disorders, and unpredictable behaviors... but please dont use the word crazy....

:D
02-16-2013
Cobalt

A meet up would be cool... at my place.
02-16-2013
Turbo6GN

I'll give this a go, I just ordered my Alpha Mass and Stano. I'll be adding derm as well. I will take it with 4-5oz of gfj daily (enough to wash down the pills) and report anything I think will interest you guys. Unfortunately I have nothing to draw a comparison from but I'm kinda curious myself. The return of the dreaded gfj burps...oh joy!!
02-16-2013
nate3993

i'd say best to use products for 2 weeks, get a feel for em, then decrease stano dose and add in gfj and see if u can achieve same effects with a lesser dose. that's gonna be the only way to tell.
02-17-2013
h2s

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo6GN

I'll give this a go, I just ordered my Alpha Mass and Stano. I'll be adding derm as well. I will take it with 4-5oz of gfj daily (enough to wash down the pills) and report anything I think will interest you guys. Unfortunately I have nothing to draw a comparison from but I'm kinda curious myself. The return of the dreaded gfj burps...oh joy!!

Better than fish oil burps, damn those are gross.