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I've thoroughly combed the net and found an anecdotal consensus:
Those sensitive to 5ar inhibition can be crushed by saw palmetto almost as much as those afflicted by finasteride. But something crossed my mind. What about anti-hair-loss shampoos that have saw palmetto in them. Is topically applying it to the scalp anything like ingesting it? Would it have consequences to the 5ar enzyme in the body?
It depends how much saw palmetto is in there really. I would say it would either be totally useless as a topical or have the potential to cause problems. If the saw palmetto is binding to the reductase enzymes locally, its not efficient enough to slow down "balding" cause there's reductase enzymes converting hormones all of the time. If the saw palmetto is getting into the bloodstream, you might have a problem.
If its any help to you, the guys who tend to experience problems with saw palmetto are usually taking pretty big doses of standardised extracts.. So it probably takes a lot of the stuff to fuck shit up internally.
That being said, I wouldn't risk it. If my hair starts falling out again (ever since my propecia encounter, it's been steadily growing back. Score) I might consider nizoral. Might.
I used this to regrow my hair, in conjunction with tocotrienols. I don't recall it having any impact on my libido, but in fairness, I was cycling when I was on it:Quote:
Originally Posted by entropy
Pura Dor Gold Label Organic Argan Oil Based Anti-Hair Loss Shampoo
I'd like to get more, but after my last experience with fenugreek, I'm afraid.
If you're worried i'd probably give nizoral a try. Rather than being a reductase inhibitor the ketocanozole binds to the dht receptors in the scalp directly. I've never heard of anyone having any kind of side effects short of dry hair.
my guessing it will prevent the DHT hormone only from reaching the scalp and that's about it
like entropy said you will need big doses to effect your libido and the dose in the shampoo is nothing
That was also my hypothesis, but I always like to get other opinions when something as scary as a 5ar inhibitor is in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by hossam
Like I said, I used the shampoo before, but that was during a period of time when I was conducting a research experiment that involved 300mg 2x weekly of Trest Deca. My research organism had the sex drive of Porntown's finest.
The consensus is correct. There are plenty of guys on PH who were decimated by the "all natural" saw palmetto just as bad as if they had taken fin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freepressright
I spent about an hour reading up on the people injured by therapeutic doses of saw palmetto. Their symptoms were identical to those with Post Finasteride Syndrome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdsnuts
How long did your recovery take?
5 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freepressright
Couldn't fuck, couldn't build muscle, had the emotions and demeanor of a teenage girl, couldn't sleep, anxiety 24/7, no pleasure in life at all, no motivation, no zest. It was more then I would wish on anyone.
Some of the guys on PH we lost to suicide. I'm too stubborn for that.
I don't know how the fuck you did it man. I'm just glad you did cause the information is invaluable.
I really do not think the shampoo would be an issue. I've been using it since I read your thread a while back and not had any issues. On or off cycle.
It shouldn't be an issue if the SP acts locally rather then systemically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Mardigan
But if it acts locally, it probably isn't the sp causing the regrowth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdsnuts
Can 5ar not be just inhibited in the scalp topically? I know certain tissues have more or less of the enzyme depending on their function. We both know systemically is absolutely not the way to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by entropy
It can be inhibited locally but its incredibly active all over the body, so I doubt it'd stop dht binding to the receptors in the scalp unless you occupied the receptors with some kinda anti androgen. (Keto, RU, Spiro etc). Personally I don't think its worth the risk really.
I was under the impression that DHT dependent tissues got the hormone from 5ar in those tissues. Such that the conversion happened in the actual area in which it was needed. I'm obviously not an endocrinologist, but this is why blocking 5ar systemically is a bad idea. You starve ALL tissues of DHT. Again, I've been out of the loop on this stuff, happily, for the past couple years.Quote:
Originally Posted by entropy
I think -some- is, but it circulates in the bloodstream anyway, so it would make it to the scalp regardless. Think shedding from a dht prohormone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdsnuts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdsnuts
The way I look at it/understand the biological process is the same as your logic:
What's making the hair fall out of the scalp is the actualy conversion of T-DHT IN THE SCALP. In other words the 5AR type 2 enzymes in the scalp that are doing the actual conversion/production of DHT in the scalp is what's damaging the hair follicles and making the hair fall out. The actual DHT that's now in your blood stream after the conversion is completed IS NOT making your hair fall out.
Same thing with the prostate IF DHT TRULY has any involvement in prostate enlargement (which is up for debate to say the lest) it's not the end result of DHT being their now in your blood, it's the actual DHT conversion process that's occurring from the 5 AR enzymes from within the prostate organ that's growing the prostate.
Now just like you said now the question is, is it possible to stop the enzyme activity in the scalp alone with out at the same time stopping the enzyme activity elsewhere on a systematic level.
Only God knows the answere to this question, personally I would take this risk. I would shave my head.
Except that's wrong because exogenous dht causes hairloss anyway. Locally blocking the receptor is the only way to stop hairloss properly, its unstoppable and trying to stop it is a recipe for disaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5 alpha victim
Quote:
Originally Posted by entropy
Thanks for the input but I would continue to debate this one with u if I cared enough. Truth is I'm here to learn as much as I can about DHT prohormones and PCT and not talk about the mechanisms of actions of DHT inhibiters.
But for the record when considering what you said as far as implying that the "primary" mechanism of action as it relates to how exactly a DHT inhibiter prevents hair loss from the scalp is that the DHT inhibiter is "locally blocking the receptors in the scalp" I have to tell you that this is about 25 percent accurate.
This is because if this was true than that would mean that when ever a guy stops taking a DHT inhibiter the receptors would simply become "unblocked" and a couple of things would now take place:
1) hair loss from the scalp would start again as the receptors in the scalp are no longer "blocked locally".
2) experiencing long term symptoms of being "finbastrided" would not be possible if all that the stuff is doing is "blocking receptors locally" as the receptors would no longer be blocked after discontinuation.
Even though serum DHT levels do contribute to prettty much everything DHT is responsible for in our bodies the primary mechanism of action that's occurring when we take such a drug is the destroying of the enzymes that convert t-DHT through out our entire bodies including places like the scalp. Unfortunately some guys endocrine systems just simply cannot "turn" the enzymes back on. That's why increasing the enzymes is the key to recovery just like cdnuts did.
Unless of course you are going to argue that the temporary taking of a DHT inhibiter has the capability to block the receptors permantly in places like the scalp. Problem with this argument is that it's possible but highly unlikely. Consider my last point. Many long term "PFS sufferes" have normal blood DHT levels but there prostates are small, their hair does not fall out, they don't get acne and they have no sex drive. Thats proof that they still produce normal amounts of DHT in certain parts of their bodies but the enzymes in certain parts of the body such as the scalp remain "off".
I will not go back and force with this as I promised I would not take part in turning this into PH.
5 Alpha....you're arguing with yourself here. That is not what he said....at all. You're misunderstanding his statement. I do think it's funny though that you said:
"Thanks for the input but I would continue to debate this one with u if I cared enough." And "I will not go back and force with this as I promised I would not take part in turning this into PH." And then you went on do to those two exact things.
I may be wrong, but I'm going to venture a guess that English is your second language??
All I know here is my hair is literally ejaculating out of my head and I've been on androhard v3 for nearly two weeks. Feels good man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdsnuts
-should I be logging this?
LOL damQuote:
Originally Posted by entropy
lol no english is my first language it's just that I was typing that response on the run. Also I'm not big on spelling anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdsnuts
I'll tell you what. To show I'm not arguing I will agree that he is right and that DHT in the blood stream is the primary reason why hair falls out of the scalp. It's clear that this is how he feels and he is opposed to the idea of "the production of DHT from within" being the reason.
My "thanks for your input comment" probable came across as being semi tool like. But I really did mean it. I am open minded and really do just like other people's thoughts on the matter. After all it's more than reasonable as 18 of the 33 endocrinologists I have talked to agree with him.
Anyways thanks for all the research you do.
Spoken like a true ph member asking for help. The information we give is free and from experience. Ponder it or don't but try and keep the "I'll tell you what" mentality for different sites. We all treat each other with respect here.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5 alpha victim
[QUOTE=entropy;45426]Spoken like a true ph member asking for help
Did you say that during the course of your recovery using cd's method you did not need DHT prohormones?
I'm not sure if you said that or u just don't think they r necessary for me to use?
The androhard that u r using right now, do u feel u still need it for recovery purposes or R u using it for reasons unreleated to "still recovering"?
How do u think it compares To alpha hard or andro300 as far as it just being a better pro hormone for increasing DHT levels in the blood? It's clear by the everyone's feedback on this website androhard V3 is by far the best option.
Did you buy it recently or have u just had it this entire time?
Do u think that I would be good to use some type of DHT prohormone in a few months if I continue to work out and eat paleo?
My digestion function feels the best it has in a while. I contribute that to my seven day fast and eating only paleo. This gain alone has been awesome for me.
Please just Forgot about all that other bs with how DHT inhibiters work. It does not even matter. I'll try to delete the post if u want. I just want my hair to fall out. I shave my head anyway and it serves no purpose. What ever the mechanism of action is, receptors or enzymes in the scalp not doing "their thing" the way I see it, if I can get my hair to fall out that's a major indication that shows I'm undoing whats been done.
Also how r u handling you pct after u r done running this?
Cheers
Hey man. In regards to androhardv3 I picked up the bottle when I was in deep shit. Baaad shit. I started herb cycling and whatnot about six months ago and felt "recovered" for a few months before I ran the androhard. I'd say the prohormones are the icing on the cake, in my case a nice reprieve from feeling a little shitty occasionally. I'm going to use transynergy daa and res100 for pct then go straight back into herb cycling. I have no idea how v3 compares to alphahard or andro300 but CD spoke quite highly of alphahard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by entropy
Awesome. Sounds like herb cycling has done a lot for you. The more I read about these herbs the more I understand why.
In your case is cycling the herbs during your pct overkill at this point ?
Disregard that question. I thought that CD cycled his herbs WITH PCT and AFTER PCT. It turns out I'm wrong. His protocol does not call for cycling of herbs during pct. It's after pct.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5 alpha victim