My Methylated vitamin crash in 2020: How I fixed it

First off, this isn’t a PFS post. I’m just explaining an experience of mine. If you’ve never had a bad reaction from methylated vitamins that caused you lasting distress, this doesn’t apply to you at all. I would have gotten this reaction with or without PFS, they aren’t related. This won’t cure your PFS and is not intended in any way to distract you from the protocol via TMO, which is the whole point of this place.


I get a lot of guys reaching out to me over my methylfolate (B9) reaction last year. I also have noticed that there is a ton of posts on propeciahelp from guys who got far worse from methylated vitamins. I want to make this post as a resource for people in the future, because this would have been extremely beneficial for me last year. If you search through my threads, I had a particularly bad crash with methylfolate that sent me to the hospital. It was agonizing, and it lasted upwards of 6 months. I ended up figuring out what happened upon doing a ton of research, and fixed the issue overnight once I pinpointed it. I’m going to go over my experience, and what I did to fix it. I’m NOT saying you should go ahead and do any of this, I’m just sharing my experience and everything I did.

I began taking b vitamins, and learned about methylated vitamins, and thought I’d give it a go. Without doing any research, or learning about my genetics I took methylfolate. Day 1 was fantastic. My anhedonia lifted, I felt great, brain fog improved, and I was going to keep taking it. Around day 2 or 3 is where shit went bad.

I began feeling more weird than usual. And then after I ate my normal lunch of chicken and vegetables, I got the most intense, agonizing panic attack of my life, and it literally felt like I was crawling out of skin. Or like I was set on fire. This was made a million times worse after eating ANYTHING with folate in it. Broccoli, asparagus, spinach, even blueberries, all made me way way worse. There’s a reason for that.

My PFS symptoms intensified by 5x overnight. I had intense derealization to the point of not recognizing my family and friends, dementia type brain fog, severe anxiety, anhedonia, my dick literally was dead, racing heart, insomnia, exercise intolerance, food intolerances with severe anxiety, my vision went haywire and looked distorted, I had a yellow tint in my vision/dim vision, and a few more. It was a nightmare. The first night I also was sprinting down the street because my anxiety was so intense that I felt I needed to run. I had a severe flu for a few weeks, and a white coated tongue/dry mouth. Upon research, I found similar experiences on propeciahelp, Reddit, and Phoenix rising. Tons of warnings against methylated vitamins and crazy, lasting experiences. I even saw a user from propeciahelp, named Douglasmich, on Phoenix Rising asking for guidance as he’d fallen into a methyltrap, and was stuck. That user, to my understanding, ended up committing suicide. I’m not sure if methyltrap or methylfolate had anything to do with that, but I’ll admit I was suicidal during my methylfolate crash. That’s why I want to create this post, it’s very fixable. I wish he could have saw this, because I think his issue was paradoxical folate deficiency, due to the intense folate from food intolerances.

I started reading Phoenix Rising, and a user named Freddd cured his CFS using methylb12. I read everything he had to say. This eventually taught me about methyltrap, and paradoxical folate deficiency, which was my issue.

Methyltrap- not enough Methylb12 was taken in conjunction with methylfolate, causing the folate to become trapped. Meaning you need more Mb12. Methylb12 acts as a vehicle to Methylfolate, and helps deliver it to where it needs to go.

Paradoxical folate deficiency- too small amount of folate taken to continue healing, causing depletion of folate and a deficiency on a cellular level. In my case, being MTHFR 677ct, I was already deficient in folate since my body doesn’t convert it well, so once I took methylfolate (without B12), it kickstarted healing too quickly, and depleted all of my folate stores. Taking small amounts of folate will make this more severe, which is why eating broccoli would trigger severity of symptoms for me.

I’ll link a few different threads where you can read what Freddd had to say and he goes into depth about it for yourself, and I’ll just explain how I fixed it for myself.

In my understanding, the process of methylation depletes stores of vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients. Which is why you need to stock up on them beforehand. I took Nature Made B complex with C (contains no folate or B12), along with calcium, magnesium, Vit A, E, fish oil for about a week to replenish my stores of these. Then I bought country life MethylB12 (Freddd recommendation) along with Solger Metafolin 1000 mcg. I was going to test methyltrap first, then paradoxical folate deficiency next.

Let me make this clear, I was absolutely MORTIFIED to try this. The thought of taking another methylated vitamin scared the hell out of me, but my condition was so bad that I was desperate.

First, I took my b complex, 1000 mcg of metafolin, then waited about 10 min and put the Mb12 under my top lip to absorb. No difference. I did this for a few days, but it made me a little worse. Although the mb12 helped a bit I felt. If methyl trap is your issue, you’ll start to feel relief from the b12, 1000 mcg a day is enough to fix methyltrap.

My only option left was to try Freddd’s recommendation for paradoxical folate deficiency, so that’s what I did. Folate is weird where as the more you take, the less bad you feel. There’s a reason that Deplin, a medication for depression, is literally 7500 MCG of methylfolate. They added enough to get past the start up effects you’d feel with less folate. I needed to gradually titrate up until the side effects stopped. This is due to deficiency rapidly occurring, until I got enough of it to stop it. I didn’t believe this, I thought there was no way that could possibly be true, and I thought he was crazy.

That day, I took the B complex, then I started with 5 Metafolins, then waited a while and put the Mb12 under my lip. I felt my anxiety start to intensify a bit, so I took 5 more metafolin. I did this for a while, taking 5 more at a time, until I had taken about 25 capsules of metafolin. I think I took like 30 total, and as soon as I took the final 5, I had IMMEDIATE relief. No more anxiety, derealization, all gone. I then took a little more B12 and about an hour later took some Niacin to demethyate myself. Niacin soaks up your methyl groups, so it’s required to take that afterwards.

From then on I had no more of those issues. I have done this a handful of times while experimenting with Methylated vitamins. I’ve taken up to 120,000 MCG (120 pills, an entire bottle) in a day of Methylfolate. Don’t try that, I don’t recommend it, but I am just stating it to show that it won’t harm you by taking higher amounts. If you’re stuck in a methylation experience from hell, this is some info that might be of help to you.

Now I can take methylated vitamins as needed, although I don’t usually. My recommendation would be to maybe avoid them in general, I don’t think they’re necessary to recover.

Notes: DON’T forget to supplement with potassium while taking methylated vitamins. Methyl vitamins deplete potassium, you’ll want “No Salt” or just potassium chloride, take it as needed and don’t overdo it. This is HUGE. Don’t take it too close to methylfolate because it disrupts absorption.

TL;DR: methyltrap: you need more B12 to release pent up folate that got stuck in your cells. Paradoxical folate deficiency: you need more folate, take folate until symptoms stop along with B12 to help transport the folate where it needs to go. Take b complex with C, along with other vitamins before hand, always take methylb12 and methylfolate together, never one without the other. Take potassium during and after. Finish with Niacin to demethylate.

Link- How to untrap a methyl trap | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums

Recognizing Paradoxical Folate Deficiency in Papers | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums

methyl trap please help | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums


Note: I’m not a medical professional, this isn’t advice, this post is only sharing my experience with a methylated B vitamin crash, and the steps I took to fix it.

Note: this will not cure your PFS. It was an entirely different condition, ON TOP of my PFS. Once I fixed this, I returned to my normal PFS, which I am fixing with the protocol via TMO.

I’m going to leave this here for future reference and to hopefully be of help to someone in the future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turnover25

I get a lot of guys reaching out to me over my methylfolate (B9) crash last year. I also have noticed that there is a ton of posts on propeciahelp from guys who got far worse from methylated vitamins. I want to make this post as a resource for people in the future, because this would have been extremely beneficial for me last year. If you search through my threads, I had a particularly bad crash with methylfolate that sent me to the hospital. It was agonizing, and it lasted upwards of 6 months. I ended up figuring out what happened upon doing a ton of research, and fixed the issue overnight once I pinpointed it. I’m going to go over my experience, and what I did to fix it. I’m NOT saying you should go ahead and do any of this, I’m just sharing my experience and everything I did.

I began taking b vitamins, and learned about methylated vitamins, and thought I’d give it a go. Without doing any research, or learning about my genetics I took methylfolate. Day 1 was fantastic. My anhedonia lifted, I felt great, brain fog improved, and I was going to keep taking it. Around day 2 or 3 is where shit went bad.

I began feeling more weird than usual. And then after I ate my normal lunch of chicken and vegetables, I got the most intense, agonizing panic attack of my life, and it literally felt like I was crawling out of skin. Or like I was set on fire. This was made a million times worse after eating ANYTHING with folate in it. Broccoli, asparagus, spinach, even blueberries, all made me way way worse. There’s a reason for that.

My PFS symptoms intensified by 5x overnight. I had intense derealization to the point of not recognizing my family and friends, dementia type brain fog, severe anxiety, anhedonia, my dick literally was dead, racing heart, insomnia, exercise intolerance, food intolerances with severe anxiety, my vision went haywire and looked distorted, I had a yellow tint in my vision/dim vision, and a few more. It was a nightmare. The first night I also was sprinting down the street because my anxiety was so intense that I felt I needed to run. I had a severe flu for a few weeks, and a white coated tongue/dry mouth. Upon research, I found similar experiences on propeciahelp, Reddit, and Phoenix rising. Tons of warnings against methylated vitamins and crazy, lasting experiences. I even saw a user from propeciahelp, named Douglasmich, on Phoenix Rising asking for guidance as he’d fallen into a methyltrap, and was stuck. That user, to my understanding, ended up committing suicide. I’m not sure if methyltrap or methylfolate had anything to do with that, but I’ll admit I was suicidal during my methylfolate crash. That’s why I want to create this post, it’s very fixable. I wish he could have saw this, because I think his issue was paradoxical folate deficiency, due to the intense folate from food intolerances.

I started reading Phoenix Rising, and a user named Freddd cured his CFS using methylb12. I read everything he had to say. This eventually taught me about methyltrap, and paradoxical folate deficiency, which was my issue.

Methyltrap- not enough Methylb12 was taken in conjunction with methylfolate, causing the folate to become trapped. Meaning you need more Mb12. Methylb12 acts as a vehicle to Methylfolate, and helps deliver it to where it needs to go.

Paradoxical folate deficiency- too small amount of folate taken to continue healing, causing depletion of folate and a deficiency on a cellular level. In my case, being MTHFR 677ct, I was already deficient in folate since my body doesn’t convert it well, so once I took methylfolate (without B12), it kickstarted healing too quickly, and depleted all of my folate stores. Taking small amounts of folate will make this more severe, which is why eating broccoli would trigger severity of symptoms for me.

I’ll link a few different threads where you can read what Freddd had to say and he goes into depth about it for yourself, and I’ll just explain how I fixed it for myself.

In my understanding, the process of methylation depletes stores of vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients. Which is why you need to stock up on them beforehand. I took Nature Made B complex with C (contains no folate or B12), along with calcium, magnesium, Vit A, E, fish oil for about a week to replenish my stores of these. Then I bought country life MethylB12 (Freddd recommendation) along with Solger Metafolin 1000 mcg. I was going to test methyltrap first, then paradoxical folate deficiency next.

Let me make this clear, I was absolutely MORTIFIED to try this. The thought of taking another methylated vitamin scared the hell out of me, but my condition was so bad that I was desperate.

First, I took my b complex, 1000 mcg of metafolin, then waited about 10 min and put the Mb12 under my top lip to absorb. No difference. I did this for a few days, but it made me a little worse. Although the mb12 helped a bit I felt. If methyl trap is your issue, you’ll start to feel relief from the b12, 1000 mcg a day is enough to fix methyltrap.

My only option left was to try Freddd’s recommendation for paradoxical folate deficiency, so that’s what I did. Folate is weird where as the more you take, the less bad you feel. There’s a reason that Deplin, a medication for depression, is literally 7500 MCG of methylfolate. They added enough to get past the start up effects you’d feel with less folate. I needed to gradually titrate up until the side effects stopped. This is due to deficiency rapidly occurring, until I got enough of it to stop it. I didn’t believe this, I thought there was no way that could possibly be true, and I thought he was crazy.

That day, I took the B complex, then I started with 5 Metafolins, then waited a while and put the Mb12 under my lip. I felt my anxiety start to intensify a bit, so I took 5 more metafolin. I did this for a while, taking 5 more at a time, until I had taken about 25 capsules of metafolin. I think I took like 30 total, and as soon as I took the final 5, I had IMMEDIATE relief. No more anxiety, derealization, all gone. I then took a little more B12 and about an hour later took some Niacin to demethyate myself. Niacin soaks up your methyl groups, so it’s required to take that afterwards.

From then on I had no more of those issues. I have done this a handful of times while experimenting with Methylated vitamins. I’ve taken up to 120,000 MCG (120 pills, an entire bottle) in a day of Methylfolate. Don’t try that, I don’t recommend it, but I am just stating it to show that it won’t harm you by taking higher amounts. If you’re stuck in a methylation experience from hell, this is some info that might be of help to you.

Now I can take methylated vitamins as needed, although I don’t usually. My recommendation would be to maybe avoid them in general, I don’t think they’re necessary to recover.

Notes: DON’T forget to supplement with potassium while taking methylated vitamins. Methyl vitamins deplete potassium, you’ll want “No Salt” or just potassium chloride, take it as needed and don’t overdo it. This is HUGE. Don’t take it too close to methylfolate because it disrupts absorption.

TL;DR: methyltrap: you need more B12 to release pent up folate that got stuck in your cells. Paradoxical folate deficiency: you need more folate, take folate until symptoms stop along with B12 to help transport the folate where it needs to go. Take b complex with C, along with other vitamins before hand, always take methylb12 and methylfolate together, never one without the other. Take potassium during and after. Finish with Niacin to demethylate.

Link- How to untrap a methyl trap | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums

Recognizing Paradoxical Folate Deficiency in Papers | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums

methyl trap please help | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums


Note: I’m not a medical professional, this isn’t advice, this post is only sharing my experience with a methylated B vitamin crash, and the steps I took to fix it.

Note: this will not cure your PFS. It was an entirely different condition, ON TOP of my PFS. Once I fixed this, I returned to my normal PFS, which I am fixing with the protocol via TMO.

I’m going to leave this here for future reference and to hopefully be of help to someone in the future.

---

Thank you for sharing.

Am I correct in assuming a b12 deficiency on your blood panel is the first hint of a possible methylfolate trap? My blood tests showed a very high amount of blood b12. Don’t want to make a fool of myself should I mention this to my GP and ask about a gene test.

Thanks for the write up. I must say the problem seemed way less severe when you mentioned it in your log.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojo

Am I correct in assuming a b12 deficiency on your blood panel is the first hint of a possible methylfolate trap? My blood tests showed a very high amount of blood b12. Don’t want to make a fool of myself should I mention this to my GP and ask about a gene test.

Thanks for the write up. I must say the problem seemed way less severe when you mentioned it in your log.

---

No, you’re not going to fall into a methyltrap if you haven’t been messing with methylated vitamins, as far as I understand. I wouldn’t mention it if you have high levels of B12 in your blood. I believe Methyltrap is something they discovered on a CFS forum. I doubt the medical community would acknowledge it. Same as a lot of issues with PFS.

I don’t go into depth as far as my condition or symptoms on my thread because I don’t want to fear monger. I only made this post because I’ve seen this issue time after time all across different forums and thought I could help.

I understand. Sometimes that looking for a silver bullet mentality resurfaces when someone mentions a solution for insomnia and anxiety..

It’s hard to tell sometimes which vitamins are methylated and which aren’t. Took some ‘active b complex’ few months ago and had an anxiety spike for a few days afterwards. Could well have been just a normal bump in the road of recovering, but it did leave me with the ‘what if’

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mojo

I understand. Sometimes that looking for a silver bullet mentality resurfaces when someone mentions a solution for insomnia and anxiety..

It’s hard to tell sometimes which vitamins are methylated and which aren’t. Took some ‘active b complex’ few months ago and had an anxiety spike for a few days afterwards. Could well have been just a normal bump in the road of recovering, but it did leave me with the ‘what if’

---

Active means methylated. They’re tolerated differently by everyone, not everyone runs into issues. But if you didn’t notice any long lasting effects from it, don’t worry about it.

When it comes to concentrated vitamins such as those, it's probably best to only take them two to three times week, tops. It depends how you feel. Sometimes once a week is all that's necessary.

You see, the issue (pfs) isn't static. It's constantly changing. This makes taking certain things tricky so you have be careful not to over do it. Better to err on the side of caution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cdsnuts

When it comes to concentrated vitamins such as those, it's probably best to only take them two to three times week, tops. It depends how you feel. Sometimes once a week is all that's necessary.

You see, the issue (pfs) isn't static. It's constantly changing. This makes taking certain things tricky so you have be careful not to over do it. Better to err on the side of caution.

---

I’d avoid them all together. I only made the post because if you find yourself stuck with the things I’m describing, they require you to proactively fix them, which if you’re already plagued with PFS adds insult to injury further.

Great post man. it's a high risk high reward system with the active b forms, I don't know if I posted it here or only on hackstasis, but I was takin 17000% rda of b1(benfo) + 200% of the otheractive forms and around 500% of methylcobalamin for 1-2months on and off while starting with a week at once. High potassium intake, carbs with every meal and balanced nutrientratio balanced with a lot of sunexposure, with quite high magnesium, sodium, vit c and was rotating probably 10-15 supps to balance stuff out as I saw fit.
I don't really think the risk is worth the reward for any1 reading this AT ALL.
Knowing what I know now it's way better to take the longer route and trust the process of your body fixing stuff. The protocol here is extremely well and ppl should just stick to it. Also every single day is important, don't cheat yourself.
ty for posting a way out for ppl who got messed up by them!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bankai9000

Great post man. it's a high risk high reward system with the active b forms, I don't know if I posted it here or only on hackstasis, but I was takin 17000% rda of b1(benfo) + 200% of the otheractive forms and around 500% of methylcobalamin for 1-2months on and off while starting with a week at once. High potassium intake, carbs with every meal and balanced nutrientratio balanced with a lot of sunexposure, with quite high magnesium, sodium, vit c and was rotating probably 10-15 supps to balance stuff out as I saw fit.
I don't really think the risk is worth the reward for any1 reading this AT ALL.
Knowing what I know now it's way better to take the longer route and trust the process of your body fixing stuff. The protocol here is extremely well and ppl should just stick to it. Also every single day is important, don't cheat yourself.
ty for posting a way out for ppl who got messed up by them!

---

How did you tolerate the active forms? Any issues? It seems like you took them the correct way and knew what you were doing, others aren’t as informed unfortunately. But I agree. I think in my case, since my body can’t convert folic acid to folate very well, it was necessary for me to take these active forms until I fixed my deficiencies. Now, I take them once in a while but not often.

I’m really hoping this post helps people in the future, if you search around, you’ll find a lot of guys who got screwed up by these vitamins, me included. But it’s absolutely fixable, easy even.

Thanks for writing up this post Turnover. This is a very clear, informative account of what happened to you and how you fixed it.
I went on to Phoenix Rising to try and find out more on the topic and quite frankly I don't know how you navigated that minefield at all.
There are literally 100s of people all writing shit up and its very hard to find clear, lucid instructions in all of it; ironic really, because almost all of them are writing up very technical information about all sorts of crazy shit but yet they're almost contradicting each other and never coming to a clear answer in discussions.
(But we definitely can't rule out that I'm the problem. Brain fog ain't exactly great here at the moment lol)
Anyway I was looking at Fred's protocol here (I'll post the lnk below) and I have a few questions man.

B-12 - The Hidden Story | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums

1) Is this the protocol to get out of the methyl trap that you referred to in your story? Methyl Trap specifically? and not Paradoxical Folate Deficiency?

2) If this IS the protocol for methyl trap how long are you supposed to carry it out for? I see that you said you did it for a few days but then I noticed some people on the forum said they did it for a few months. Does Fred recommend you do this indefinitely until you experience results?

3) I seen that you mentioned in your post that you took "Nature Made B complex with C" because it contains no folate or B12. Which seems like a solid suggestion because im shit scared to take anything with folate or b12 after that crash a couple of weeks ago BUT at the same time I think I'm now showing deficiencies in vitamin B, so it would be a good idea to take that supplement. However I seen that in Fred's protocol he just recommends "Jarrow B-Right B-complex". Which DOES contain methylfolate and methylcobalamin (active folate and active B12 for those reading) did you do your own research and decide not to go with that brand supplement for any specific reason or do you think it would be OK to go with Fred's suggestion? I'm in Ireland and can't get that brand you got (at least not without waiting a month or so for delivery)

4) did you abstain from vegetables or foods high in folate before you tried this remedy? And if you did how long for?

5) for the methyl trap did you take any of the Country Life Dibencozide (adenosylb12) recommended as well as mb12 or just mb12 on its own?

6) I noticed you said you done this remedy a handful of times. What caused you to have to redo it again? Did you start experimenting with methylated vitamins again or was it something else?

7) Do you know can regular B vitamins cause this problem of crashing? Did you ever crash from just regular B vitamins? Cause I was taking a regular B complex on and off for 18 months or so and now looking back I think I can link the times that I was ON the B complex to some funny side effects. But maybe I'm just connecting dots that aren't there.

Once again thanks for any help man. You've done a lot of work here to do all that research and then write up that post to help all of us.
I'm just trying to pick your brain a bit more cause like I said PR is a bit of a minefield and im not exactly firing on all cylinders atm lol.
Cheers pal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Celtic

Thanks for writing up this post Turnover. This is a very clear, informative account of what happened to you and how you fixed it.
I went on to Phoenix Rising to try and find out more on the topic and quite frankly I don't know how you navigated that minefield at all.
There are literally 100s of people all writing shit up and its very hard to find clear, lucid instructions in all of it; ironic really, because almost all of them are writing up very technical information about all sorts of crazy shit but yet they're almost contradicting each other and never coming to a clear answer in discussions.
(But we definitely can't rule out that I'm the problem. Brain fog ain't exactly great here at the moment lol)
Anyway I was looking at Fred's protocol here (I'll post the lnk below) and I have a few questions man.

B-12 - The Hidden Story | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums

1) Is this the protocol to get out of the methyl trap that you referred to in your story? Methyl Trap specifically? and not Paradoxical Folate Deficiency?

2) If this IS the protocol for methyl trap how long are you supposed to carry it out for? I see that you said you did it for a few days but then I noticed some people on the forum said they did it for a few months. Does Fred recommend you do this indefinitely until you experience results?

3) I seen that you mentioned in your post that you took "Nature Made B complex with C" because it contains no folate or B12. Which seems like a solid suggestion because im shit scared to take anything with folate or b12 after that crash a couple of weeks ago BUT at the same time I think I'm now showing deficiencies in vitamin B, so it would be a good idea to take that supplement. However I seen that in Fred's protocol he just recommends "Jarrow B-Right B-complex". Which DOES contain methylfolate and methylcobalamin (active folate and active B12 for those reading) did you do your own research and decide not to go with that brand supplement for any specific reason or do you think it would be OK to go with Fred's suggestion? I'm in Ireland and can't get that brand you got (at least not without waiting a month or so for delivery)

4) did you abstain from vegetables or foods high in folate before you tried this remedy? And if you did how long for?

5) for the methyl trap did you take any of the Country Life Dibencozide (adenosylb12) recommended as well as mb12 or just mb12 on its own?

6) I noticed you said you done this remedy a handful of times. What caused you to have to redo it again? Did you start experimenting with methylated vitamins again or was it something else?

7) Do you know can regular B vitamins cause this problem of crashing? Did you ever crash from just regular B vitamins? Cause I was taking a regular B complex on and off for 18 months or so and now looking back I think I can link the times that I was ON the B complex to some funny side effects. But maybe I'm just connecting dots that aren't there.

Once again thanks for any help man. You've done a lot of work here to do all that research and then write up that post to help all of us.
I'm just trying to pick your brain a bit more cause like I said PR is a bit of a minefield and im not exactly firing on all cylinders atm lol.
Cheers pal

---

It took a long time of researching that forum, everyone contradicts each other and its tough to know what route to go. I was confused as hell. I eventually stumbled upon different stories of people who had gotten worse (CFS wise) from methylated vitamins and Freddd discussed with them how to get out of it. Try and find one of those posts, it's difficult. I can try and find the originals but it may take a minute.

1. He isn't talking about how to get out of methyl trap or paradoxical folate deficiency. He's basically just discussing the do's and don'ts of Freddd's actual protocol, which I've never tried. Freddd has an actual protocol (just as CD) to treat CFS via methylated vitamins. I took methylated vitamins, got stuck in paradoxical folate deficiency, and needed to be guided on how to fix it. Which he explains in numerous posts, I eventually just memorized it because I had to end up doing it and I researched the hell out of it. I still follow most of it when I take methyls, such as taking cofactors with it.

2. I'm not sure. I didn't have methyl trap, but I imagine you'd start feeling relief immediately or within a few days. It made me worse. I tested methyl trap by taking all the cofactors I listed for a few days, then taking some folate (like 1000 mcg) a day along with like 2 tablets of B12 under my lip. I did that for a few days, my DPDR got WAY worse, same with anxiety, and I didn't feel like I was moving in the right direction. (This was due to me taking not enough folate to fix my folate deficiency that was getting worse every time I took folate). So I moved onto the next option after a couple of days and it worked. Which was upping my folate intake by 5 pills every 10-20 min or so until I started to feel better. Around 30 of them or so. Don't take a fuck ton of them. That's the only difference between the 2 approaches I took, was the amount of folate.

3. You're gonna want Metafolin 1000 MCG, get the 120 tablets one. If you have to wait, so be it. That's the one he says you need to take to get out of paradoxical folate deficiency, and I tried others and they weren't as good. He recommended the Metafolin, Country life Methyl B12 (1000 mcg), Dibencoplex 10,000 (Adenob12), and the nature made B complex with C. Along with those other vitamins I listed, but you may need more or less of them. I didn't take all the ones he listed and I was fine, just needed more folate.

4. Yes. Until I started to feel better. Eating them would make me miserable.

5. Yes. You're going to want the Dibencoplex 10,000 and the country life Methyl B12. Both forms of active B12 are necessary to get out of the methyl trap. I forgot to mention that in the post.

6. I didn't repeat it because I had to, it just made me feel REALLY good to take like 30,000 MCG of folate along with b12. But every time I take methyls, I take all of the cofactor vitamins I listed along with it. I don't ever only take 1 metafolin. It's at least 5-10 capsules (5000-10,000 MCG) each time. My body doesn't process folate so I require a bit more of it. Your genetics can come into play here too. That's what I meant by me repeating the process.

7. I wasted a ton of time worrying about that exact thing. Then I ran pro-hormones and realized it wasn't the B vitamins. After my methyl crash, I ran all the "what ifs" about maybe I'm just deficient in B vitamins and I don't have PFS, all that. The B vitamins didn't crash you, nor will they make you crash. The only things that will happen are paradoxical folate deficiency, or methyl trap, but both of those will exasperate your PFS. It won't crash you all over again, just make it worse temporarily. B vitamins do a lot with neurotransmitters, all that. So they could make you feel worse. B vitamins aren't required to recover, if they make you feel bad just get your B vitamins from food. Although, if the B complex you're taking contains folic acid, stop taking it. Folic acid is a synthetic version of folate, it's found in breads and shit too, I can't take it or it makes me feel like shit, and I had the same issue taking a B complex that had folic acid in it. That's the point of the nature made B complex with C.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Celtic

Thanks for writing up this post Turnover. This is a very clear, informative account of what happened to you and how you fixed it.
I went on to Phoenix Rising to try and find out more on the topic and quite frankly I don't know how you navigated that minefield at all.
There are literally 100s of people all writing shit up and its very hard to find clear, lucid instructions in all of it; ironic really, because almost all of them are writing up very technical information about all sorts of crazy shit but yet they're almost contradicting each other and never coming to a clear answer in discussions.
(But we definitely can't rule out that I'm the problem. Brain fog ain't exactly great here at the moment lol)
Anyway I was looking at Fred's protocol here (I'll post the lnk below) and I have a few questions man.

B-12 - The Hidden Story | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums

1) Is this the protocol to get out of the methyl trap that you referred to in your story? Methyl Trap specifically? and not Paradoxical Folate Deficiency?

2) If this IS the protocol for methyl trap how long are you supposed to carry it out for? I see that you said you did it for a few days but then I noticed some people on the forum said they did it for a few months. Does Fred recommend you do this indefinitely until you experience results?

3) I seen that you mentioned in your post that you took "Nature Made B complex with C" because it contains no folate or B12. Which seems like a solid suggestion because im shit scared to take anything with folate or b12 after that crash a couple of weeks ago BUT at the same time I think I'm now showing deficiencies in vitamin B, so it would be a good idea to take that supplement. However I seen that in Fred's protocol he just recommends "Jarrow B-Right B-complex". Which DOES contain methylfolate and methylcobalamin (active folate and active B12 for those reading) did you do your own research and decide not to go with that brand supplement for any specific reason or do you think it would be OK to go with Fred's suggestion? I'm in Ireland and can't get that brand you got (at least not without waiting a month or so for delivery)

4) did you abstain from vegetables or foods high in folate before you tried this remedy? And if you did how long for?

5) for the methyl trap did you take any of the Country Life Dibencozide (adenosylb12) recommended as well as mb12 or just mb12 on its own?

6) I noticed you said you done this remedy a handful of times. What caused you to have to redo it again? Did you start experimenting with methylated vitamins again or was it something else?

7) Do you know can regular B vitamins cause this problem of crashing? Did you ever crash from just regular B vitamins? Cause I was taking a regular B complex on and off for 18 months or so and now looking back I think I can link the times that I was ON the B complex to some funny side effects. But maybe I'm just connecting dots that aren't there.

Once again thanks for any help man. You've done a lot of work here to do all that research and then write up that post to help all of us.
I'm just trying to pick your brain a bit more cause like I said PR is a bit of a minefield and im not exactly firing on all cylinders atm lol.
Cheers pal

---

Methylfolate side effects what happened | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums

https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/methylation-protocol-issues-only-three-months-in.38309/

Here’s a couple links where he discusses things. All I can find for now. There’s a post of another guy who solved his issue by upping his folate intake, which is the one I went off, but I can’t find it at the moment.

Does this implies that PFS is not connected to CFS in anyway? I myself believe i have a vitamin B deficiency symptoms (skin and nails) is it safe for me to try normal vitamin B complex? Also can neurorubine injections cause this paradox?

Personally, this whole methyltrap thing is the first I've heard of it. But I've never had anyone come across this problem before. I think there has to be a section for this because I don't want guys getting confused on how to proceed with the protocol. We all see people have trouble enough without having to think about anything else. I can guarantee this is going to add confusion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cdsnuts

Personally, this whole methyltrap thing is the first I've heard of it. But I've never had anyone come across this problem before. I think there has to be a section for this because I don't want guys getting confused on how to proceed with the protocol. We all see people have trouble enough without having to think about anything else. I can guarantee this is going to add confusion.

---

I agree, I don’t want this to add confusion in regards of the protocol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turnover25

I agree, I don’t want this to add confusion in regards of the protocol.

---

Especially since it just hasn't been an issue before. We'll just keep this in your thread and leave it at that. If anyone has any questions, they can PM you. Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cdsnuts

Especially since it just hasn't been an issue before. We'll just keep this in your thread and leave it at that. If anyone has any questions, they can PM you. Thanks.

---

No problem. My intention was just to share my experience, and potentially help a small subset of people who could use this eventually. Sorry for the confusion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turnover25

No problem. My intention was just to share my experience, and potentially help a small subset of people who could use this eventually. Sorry for the confusion.

---

I understand and there is no reason to apologize. It's just you see the questions that are asked on here on a daily basis. Most of them could have been answered by simply reading the forum a bit. Actually, ALL of them can be answered if someone spent enough time going through all of the posts here. This place is a gold mine of info and If I died tomorrow, there would be no reason that someone couldn't come here and recover on their own without me answering anymore questions.

I appreciate you spending the time and helping out. I'm just trying to keep this as remedial as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cdsnuts

I understand and there is no reason to apologize. It's just you see the questions that are asked on here on a daily basis. Most of them could have been answered by simply reading the forum a bit. Actually, ALL of them can be answered if someone spent enough time going through all of the posts here. This place is a gold mine of info and If I died tomorrow, there would be no reason that someone couldn't come here and recover on their own without me answering anymore questions.

I appreciate you spending the time and helping out. I'm just trying to keep this as remedial as possible.

---

All good brother, you’ve done a good thing here and I’ve benefited greatly by this place, I don’t want to take away from the point of things here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turnover25

All good brother, you’ve done a good thing here and I’ve benefited greatly by this place, I don’t want to take away from the point of things here.

---

You're not at all. You may have just helped someone who may have had this issue. Just because I've never heard of it before doesn't mean shit. Just trying to keep things as simple as possible. You can see what a feat that can be......lol

I suspect I have a vitamin B deficiency in most of the vitamin Bs. I want to buy a B complex but now I'm hesitant after reading this? What do you suggest instead?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crashed

I suspect I have a vitamin B deficiency in most of the vitamin Bs. I want to buy a B complex but now I'm hesitant after reading this? What do you suggest instead?

---

Go for something food based and lighter then "chemical" vitamins. https://www.puritan.com/natures-plus...B&gclsrc=aw.ds

update: ive been taking b complex for a week now with activated b6 and b12. many b6 deficient symptoms disapearing. increased apetite, muscles looking fuller, gaining weight, skin became more hydrated, dandruff decreased, libido/erection quality increased many things.

i understand the reason for the crashes that ppl have experienced are from too much of 1 methylated vitamin b without the assistance of other vitamins? if i take a b complex then its safe right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cdsnuts

Go for something food based and lighter then "chemical" vitamins. https://www.puritan.com/natures-plus...B&gclsrc=aw.ds

---

also cheers for that, ill purcchase it once ive corrected my deficiency and ill maintain on that 1 u just suggested

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crashed

update: ive been taking b complex for a week now with activated b6 and b12. many b6 deficient symptoms disapearing. increased apetite, muscles looking fuller, gaining weight, skin became more hydrated, dandruff decreased, libido/erection quality increased many things.

i understand the reason for the crashes that ppl have experienced are from too much of 1 methylated vitamin b without the assistance of other vitamins? if i take a b complex then its safe right?

---

Everyone is different, you’re essentially playing with fire, but I’m glad it’s giving you good results. B vitamins play a big roll in neurotransmitter production/support so that could be why you’re feeling a bit better with them.

Just to add onto what my man @Turnover25 said, be careful with activated B’s. It may be a good ride now but can turn on you. Playing with methylation cycles is no joke. If you want to do that, I’d say make sure you have some sort of practitioner (natural health, or even ARL/TEI like they do at Hack Stasis) looking over you and providing guidance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maxout777

Just to add onto what my man @Turnover25 said, be careful with activated B’s. It may be a good ride now but can turn on you. Playing with methylation cycles is no joke. If you want to do that, I’d say make sure you have some sort of practitioner (natural health, or even ARL/TEI like they do at Hack Stasis) looking over you and providing guidance.

---

I definitely agree

I told my doctor and he understands/monitoring me. i feel ive been deficient for a long time tbh. im just gonna take recommended dosage for a couple months til the deficiency has cleared then ill maintain with something lighter. if this crashes me or whatever, then ill have to cross that bridge when i come to it. but i feel id rather take this route than to correct the deficiency with food

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crashed

I told my doctor and he understands/monitoring me. i feel ive been deficient for a long time tbh. im just gonna take recommended dosage for a couple months til the deficiency has cleared then ill maintain with something lighter. if this crashes me or whatever, then ill have to cross that bridge when i come to it. but i feel id rather take this route than to correct the deficiency with food

---

Just be mindful. Don't take it daily. I guess I got lucky here. I just took it along with everything else and never had any issues. Just a simple B complex. Only took it every third day or so in the beginning, then once a week, then once every few weeks etc. I just did it by feel. I know people balc at that, but that's what I did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turnover25

First off, this isn’t a PFS post. I’m just explaining an experience of mine. If you’ve never had a bad reaction from methylated vitamins that caused you lasting distress, this doesn’t apply to you at all. I would have gotten this reaction with or without PFS, they aren’t related. This won’t cure your PFS and is not intended in any way to distract you from the protocol via TMO, which is the whole point of this place.


I get a lot of guys reaching out to me over my methylfolate (B9) reaction last year. I also have noticed that there is a ton of posts on propeciahelp from guys who got far worse from methylated vitamins. I want to make this post as a resource for people in the future, because this would have been extremely beneficial for me last year. If you search through my threads, I had a particularly bad crash with methylfolate that sent me to the hospital. It was agonizing, and it lasted upwards of 6 months. I ended up figuring out what happened upon doing a ton of research, and fixed the issue overnight once I pinpointed it. I’m going to go over my experience, and what I did to fix it. I’m NOT saying you should go ahead and do any of this, I’m just sharing my experience and everything I did.

I began taking b vitamins, and learned about methylated vitamins, and thought I’d give it a go. Without doing any research, or learning about my genetics I took methylfolate. Day 1 was fantastic. My anhedonia lifted, I felt great, brain fog improved, and I was going to keep taking it. Around day 2 or 3 is where shit went bad.

I began feeling more weird than usual. And then after I ate my normal lunch of chicken and vegetables, I got the most intense, agonizing panic attack of my life, and it literally felt like I was crawling out of skin. Or like I was set on fire. This was made a million times worse after eating ANYTHING with folate in it. Broccoli, asparagus, spinach, even blueberries, all made me way way worse. There’s a reason for that.

My PFS symptoms intensified by 5x overnight. I had intense derealization to the point of not recognizing my family and friends, dementia type brain fog, severe anxiety, anhedonia, my dick literally was dead, racing heart, insomnia, exercise intolerance, food intolerances with severe anxiety, my vision went haywire and looked distorted, I had a yellow tint in my vision/dim vision, and a few more. It was a nightmare. The first night I also was sprinting down the street because my anxiety was so intense that I felt I needed to run. I had a severe flu for a few weeks, and a white coated tongue/dry mouth. Upon research, I found similar experiences on propeciahelp, Reddit, and Phoenix rising. Tons of warnings against methylated vitamins and crazy, lasting experiences. I even saw a user from propeciahelp, named Douglasmich, on Phoenix Rising asking for guidance as he’d fallen into a methyltrap, and was stuck. That user, to my understanding, ended up committing suicide. I’m not sure if methyltrap or methylfolate had anything to do with that, but I’ll admit I was suicidal during my methylfolate crash. That’s why I want to create this post, it’s very fixable. I wish he could have saw this, because I think his issue was paradoxical folate deficiency, due to the intense folate from food intolerances.

I started reading Phoenix Rising, and a user named Freddd cured his CFS using methylb12. I read everything he had to say. This eventually taught me about methyltrap, and paradoxical folate deficiency, which was my issue.

Methyltrap- not enough Methylb12 was taken in conjunction with methylfolate, causing the folate to become trapped. Meaning you need more Mb12. Methylb12 acts as a vehicle to Methylfolate, and helps deliver it to where it needs to go.

Paradoxical folate deficiency- too small amount of folate taken to continue healing, causing depletion of folate and a deficiency on a cellular level. In my case, being MTHFR 677ct, I was already deficient in folate since my body doesn’t convert it well, so once I took methylfolate (without B12), it kickstarted healing too quickly, and depleted all of my folate stores. Taking small amounts of folate will make this more severe, which is why eating broccoli would trigger severity of symptoms for me.

I’ll link a few different threads where you can read what Freddd had to say and he goes into depth about it for yourself, and I’ll just explain how I fixed it for myself.

In my understanding, the process of methylation depletes stores of vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients. Which is why you need to stock up on them beforehand. I took Nature Made B complex with C (contains no folate or B12), along with calcium, magnesium, Vit A, E, fish oil for about a week to replenish my stores of these. Then I bought country life MethylB12 (Freddd recommendation) along with Solger Metafolin 1000 mcg. I was going to test methyltrap first, then paradoxical folate deficiency next.

Let me make this clear, I was absolutely MORTIFIED to try this. The thought of taking another methylated vitamin scared the hell out of me, but my condition was so bad that I was desperate.

First, I took my b complex, 1000 mcg of metafolin, then waited about 10 min and put the Mb12 under my top lip to absorb. No difference. I did this for a few days, but it made me a little worse. Although the mb12 helped a bit I felt. If methyl trap is your issue, you’ll start to feel relief from the b12, 1000 mcg a day is enough to fix methyltrap.

My only option left was to try Freddd’s recommendation for paradoxical folate deficiency, so that’s what I did. Folate is weird where as the more you take, the less bad you feel. There’s a reason that Deplin, a medication for depression, is literally 7500 MCG of methylfolate. They added enough to get past the start up effects you’d feel with less folate. I needed to gradually titrate up until the side effects stopped. This is due to deficiency rapidly occurring, until I got enough of it to stop it. I didn’t believe this, I thought there was no way that could possibly be true, and I thought he was crazy.

That day, I took the B complex, then I started with 5 Metafolins, then waited a while and put the Mb12 under my lip. I felt my anxiety start to intensify a bit, so I took 5 more metafolin. I did this for a while, taking 5 more at a time, until I had taken about 25 capsules of metafolin. I think I took like 30 total, and as soon as I took the final 5, I had IMMEDIATE relief. No more anxiety, derealization, all gone. I then took a little more B12 and about an hour later took some Niacin to demethyate myself. Niacin soaks up your methyl groups, so it’s required to take that afterwards.

From then on I had no more of those issues. I have done this a handful of times while experimenting with Methylated vitamins. I’ve taken up to 120,000 MCG (120 pills, an entire bottle) in a day of Methylfolate. Don’t try that, I don’t recommend it, but I am just stating it to show that it won’t harm you by taking higher amounts. If you’re stuck in a methylation experience from hell, this is some info that might be of help to you.

Now I can take methylated vitamins as needed, although I don’t usually. My recommendation would be to maybe avoid them in general, I don’t think they’re necessary to recover.

Notes: DON’T forget to supplement with potassium while taking methylated vitamins. Methyl vitamins deplete potassium, you’ll want “No Salt” or just potassium chloride, take it as needed and don’t overdo it. This is HUGE. Don’t take it too close to methylfolate because it disrupts absorption.

TL;DR: methyltrap: you need more B12 to release pent up folate that got stuck in your cells. Paradoxical folate deficiency: you need more folate, take folate until symptoms stop along with B12 to help transport the folate where it needs to go. Take b complex with C, along with other vitamins before hand, always take methylb12 and methylfolate together, never one without the other. Take potassium during and after. Finish with Niacin to demethylate.

Link- How to untrap a methyl trap | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums

Recognizing Paradoxical Folate Deficiency in Papers | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums

methyl trap please help | Phoenix Rising ME/CFS Forums


Note: I’m not a medical professional, this isn’t advice, this post is only sharing my experience with a methylated B vitamin crash, and the steps I took to fix it.

Note: this will not cure your PFS. It was an entirely different condition, ON TOP of my PFS. Once I fixed this, I returned to my normal PFS, which I am fixing with the protocol via TMO.

I’m going to leave this here for future reference and to hopefully be of help to someone in the future.

---

I was taking vit B12 (as methlycobalamin dicalcium phosphate) and Folate (as L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate). I took these for 2 weeks straight in a elemental diet shake, then I crashed. Could these be the cause?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jado

I was taking vit B12 (as methlycobalamin dicalcium phosphate) and Folate (as L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate). I took these for 2 weeks straight in a elemental diet shake, then I crashed. Could these be the cause?

---

Could be, if your issues went away I wouldn’t worry about it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turnover25

Could be, if your issues went away I wouldn’t worry about it.

---

Oh, no. I'm still in the middle of this nightmare. I did the diet that include those methylated vitamins for 2 weeks and felt ok. Then a few days later the symptoms started. Crushing/crippling anxiety, constipation, insomnia, derealization, brain fog, and intermittent joint pain. Is there a way to know for sure if this is the cause of this crashing? Also, I read your entire post but am a little unclear on what exactly you did to get out.

If it's methyltrap: I just need to take B12 (methyl B12?) to release folate until I feel better?

If it's Paradoxical Folate Deficiency: More folate with B12 (methyl B12?) until symptoms subside?

Are metafolins just folate?

Any guidance you can give is greatly appreciated. This seems like it could be my issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jado

Oh, no. I'm still in the middle of this nightmare. I did the diet that include those methylated vitamins for 2 weeks and felt ok. Then a few days later the symptoms started. Crushing/crippling anxiety, constipation, insomnia, derealization, brain fog, and intermittent joint pain. Is there a way to know for sure if this is the cause of this crashing? Also, I read your entire post but am a little unclear on what exactly you did to get out.

If it's methyltrap: I just need to take B12 (methyl B12?) to release folate until I feel better?

If it's Paradoxical Folate Deficiency: More folate with B12 (methyl B12?) until symptoms subside?

Are metafolins just folate?

Any guidance you can give is greatly appreciated. This seems like it could be my issue.

---

It’s complicated stuff. Sounds a bit like my experience. I waited like 6 months to do anything about it to see if my body would correct it, nothing changed so I knew. Also my biggest sign that I had a paradoxical folate deficiency was my inability to eat folate at all, spinach, broccoli, green juice or anything like that would send me spiraling. I’d try and eat some broccoli, if you feel fine then you aren’t dealing with that. I’d also wait a while to see if your body adjusts out of it, people crash on all sorts of shit. My crash sent me to the hospital, it was extremely abrupt and obvious. There’s a chance the vitamins just don’t agree with your PFS.

And no not exactly, read the post carefully. I did a fuck ton of research before taking the risky step I took. I just don’t feel comfortable discussing too much on this thread because it brings confusion to the forum and makes people think this is how you cure PFS when it’s a totally different issue. You can PM me if you want

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Turnover25

It’s complicated stuff. Sounds a bit like my experience. I waited like 6 months to do anything about it to see if my body would correct it, nothing changed so I knew. Also my biggest sign that I had a paradoxical folate deficiency was my inability to eat folate at all, spinach, broccoli, green juice or anything like that would send me spiraling. I’d try and eat some broccoli, if you feel fine then you aren’t dealing with that. I’d also wait a while to see if your body adjusts out of it, people crash on all sorts of shit. My crash sent me to the hospital, it was extremely abrupt and obvious. There’s a chance the vitamins just don’t agree with your PFS.

And no not exactly, read the post carefully. I did a fuck ton of research before taking the risky step I took. I just don’t feel comfortable discussing too much on this thread because it brings confusion to the forum and makes people think this is how you cure PFS when it’s a totally different issue. You can PM me if you want

---

Thank you for this, Turnover.

@Turnover25 Ok, I have to admit this is a lot to process, still not expert about this kind of shit.
I have mthfr too, my total b12 levels in blood are abnormally high and from my understanding this is because my body can't convert it in the active form so it just overaccumulate like that.
Can you confirm?
Also I wuold like to ask you; so if I want to adress my c667t what should I do for avoid to kill myself? Start taking methylb12 and methylfolate at the same time?
Any suggestion on initial dosage?
Sorry for coming out of nowhere on your thread but I may need your knowledge ;-)
Thank you man

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thisworld

@Turnover25 Ok, I have to admit this is a lot to process, still not expert about this kind of shit.
I have mthfr too, my total b12 levels in blood are abnormally high and from my understanding this is because my body can't convert it in the active form so it just overaccumulate like that.
Can you confirm?
Also I wuold like to ask you; so if I want to adress my c667t what should I do for avoid to kill myself? Start taking methylb12 and methylfolate at the same time?
Any suggestion on initial dosage?
Sorry for coming out of nowhere on your thread but I may need your knowledge ;-)
Thank you man

---

I don’t personally know if MTHFR has anything to do with B12, from my understanding it’s more related to folate, as in FR (Folate Reductase) if your blood levels of B12 are high I don’t think that means your body can’t convert it.

I’d avoid these vitamins in a PFS state, the whole point of this post was because I was C667t as well and got colossally fucked from them, and how to reverse that crash. I’d avoid it all together, you don’t need them to recover, and my life was always fine without them before all this.

I can't believe i took seroquel what a ducking gimp

I Sherri drink bottles of vitamins every day and get a head in
If disjunction transmit when hungover and wank al! Day producing good loads