Swill's Conundrum... What do you guys think?!

Hey guys,

Firstly hello to old friends and new faces, hope you are well.

As some of you may know, I had PFS back in 2013 and recovered (to a large extent) a number of years back. My desire never returned to what it was, but I was getting by just fine in the sack and happy, healthy and the hell I went through was very much in the rear view mirror.

Life has been absolutely peachy up to this year... married to a beautiful gal, all good in every aspect of my life and my happiest years.

However, in March of this year I had the sudden onset of extreme anxiety and panic, to the point that I spent the vast majority of the day in 'fight or flight' mode, it was very perplexing as I have never had anything like this previously and it has absolutely destroyed my life as I know it... im down around 25lbs, shaking and in constant fear and dread, overwhelmed by basic tasks and i've been off work since March (for comparison, during my PFS period I never missed a day of work).

I was diagnosed with low T in mid March, and knowing what I know I got straight back on plan and my T returned to lower-mid range, which is normal for me (I have one functioning nut, which is what I attribute to not fully recovering my libido... the one guy was being asked to do a lot of work and I couldn't get as optimised as you two-nutted guys). I felt a little better and was due to return to work in Mid-April, but unfortunately it recurred and things fell off again.

I have been through a hellish situation since, whereby doctors thought it was potentially due to an adrenal tumor or tumor in the body, then a good friend stated it could be a pituitary tumor.... dozens of blood tests, a CT scan of the abdomen and an MRI of the head later and I got the all clear in that sense, but the matter persisted. A pretty terrifying time.

I also tried an anti-depressant medication when I got very desperate and things were getting very dark for me, I opted for Mirtazapine as I know about PSSD and the links with PFS, and Mirtazapine isn't associated with this as it is not an SSRI and actually weirdly has pro-sexual side effects. Unfortunately it did not agree with me and nearly put me over the edge when going onto it and when tapering off after only 6 weeks, which brings me to now...

In truth, i'm in a really dark place and have been having suicidal thoughts, which is really not like me. I'm exhausted from all this, and really not sure where to turn with it all... The anxiety has really ramped up since coming off the medication and I also have insomnia from the withdrawal.

I was just wondering what you guys think about the following...

I was fortunate enough to not develop severe psychological/neurological sides with my PFS battle back in 2013, and aside from some brain fog and situational anxiety it was the sexual side effects I had problems with. I am however aware that finasteride can do some bad shit to GABA receptors and allopregnanolone in the brain, which are the calming elements with the fight or flight response. Do you think that after all this time, PFS could be at play for the persistent issues I'm now experiencing?

I've always been fit, active and healthy but will admit that over the lockdown period, which was quite militant here in the UK with everything closed for a long time, I had let things go and ate and drank more than I usually would... I also tore a shoulder muscle at the beginning of lockdown in march last year so couldn't see a physio for months, by which time it was a real mess and took a lot of rehabbing... couldn't even do cardio outdoors for a long while. However, I was still in decent athletic shape... I can't see how this in isolation would have caused it, but maybe it was a compounding factor with my health and hormones not being where they were...

Any input would be gratefully received, not sure if this could be things bottoming out due to lingering finasteride issues in the brain, or if it is something completely separate.

At the moment I am considering everything from TRT (knowing my hormones are never going to be totally optimal due to the 1 nut situation and me starting to get a little older), to maybe stem cell therapy which I've heard great things about...

Kinda at the end of my tether, and I know nobody here has a crystal ball, but anyone input would be gratefully received.

Hope you are all happy and healthy!

Very perplexing indeed. Perhaps a new care product you used had some saw palmetto hidden in the ingredient list?

I’d be very surprised PFS just randomly pops up again so violently after years of recovery unless you would come in contact again.

You are precisely describing my symptoms when I came down. I also went the mirtazapine route and quit after a few months. And I also dealt with the insomnia aftermath so I feel you.
But I can also guarantee you it will get better, of my own experience.

Good news is that if it indeed is PFS then you know what to do and you know it will work. Start listening to binaural tracks while doing breathing exercises and prepare to embrace the succ for a while. Best advice I can give you is to just accept it is happening and not to stress out about it too much, as hard as that may sound.

Look into buying some Kava to take the edge off when things feel unmanageable. It potentiates the GABA receptors, and really helped me when I felt completely lost.

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Originally Posted by Mojo

Very perplexing indeed. Perhaps a new care product you used had some saw palmetto hidden in the ingredient list?

I’d be very surprised PFS just randomly pops up again so violently after years of recovery unless you would come in contact again.

You are precisely describing my symptoms when I came down. I also went the mirtazapine route and quit after a few months. And I also dealt with the insomnia aftermath so I feel you.
But I can also guarantee you it will get better, of my own experience.

Good news is that if it indeed is PFS then you know what to do and you know it will work. Start listening to binaural tracks while doing breathing exercises and prepare to embrace the succ for a while. Best advice I can give you is to just accept it is happening and not to stress out about it too much, as hard as that may sound.

Look into buying some Kava to take the edge off when things feel unmanageable. It potentiates the GABA receptors, and really helped me when I felt completely lost.

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Thank you, man. Did you get any relief with the mirtazapine, and did you get hyperarousal with your anxiety going on and coming off, as well as the insomnia?

Is there a particular brand of kava you would recommend?

Weird stuff, man. I’ll give you my 2 cents.

If your desired never returned, I’d have a suspicion that you truly weren’t “out of the woods” so to speak completely. Maybe you deemed yourself “good enough” and moved on. The medication could have tripped you up a bit if that were the case, not really sure. But anxiety and panic are a thing for normal everyday people, just reading this gave me a bit of fight or flight, so I’d dissect your current life and see if there are any psychological stressors at play.

I was primarily a neurological victim of PFS. Anxiety, panic and inability to handle simple tasks and getting completely overwhelmed by just doing shit like vacuuming my house was a huge, HUGE issue for me. Total nightmare, I get it. But I can assure you it passes. It did for me, and I’ve crashed myself like 3 times with 5ARI’s over my course of this. So even if it has anything to do with PFS, which it probably doesn’t, you’ll be fine either way.

Curious what @Cdsnuts and @Maxout777 thoughts are here

Edit: the more I read this thread, it sounds like a pfs crash. There’s plenty of stories where guys have crashed years later. And my crystal ball with the sides you’re describing was the protocol for a few months, then running a pro hormones cycle. All that BS left after my first cycle and it was a lot easier.

Not to be a dick but I’m not sure what all the random supplement suggestions are about, a lot of guys here didn’t deal with hardcore neurological shit and playing with supplements can seriously fuck you in that department, you don’t want to play with fire. It’s not the same as low libido where you take the wrong supplements and don’t feel horny anymore, if you take something your body doesn’t agree with you’re going to send yourself into a nightmare that you don’t want any part of

Are you absolutely positive you haven’t ingested anything that disturbs 5AR? Saw Palmetto is in a lot of hair products and even weight lifting supplements! Were you trying any new hair loss prevention products?

Your description sounds textbook PFS crash.

I would hold off on the TRT until you try this:

Amazon.com: Mofo is Ancestral Supplements Male Optimization Formula W/ Organs (Mofo) — (180 Capsules): Health Personal Care

It really helped raise my T levels along with the protocol (which I still do). It's basically just giving your body the building blocks to strengthen its own system so you can achieve hormonal balance. I take it during the week and let my system rest on the weekends. Granted, it's currently out of stock, so I ordered this to take alongside the regular organ cocktail ancestral supplements makes. No idea if it's going to work but I figure it couldn't hurt:

https://wildwarriornutrition.com/sho...orchic-extract

Magnesium and minerals/trace minerals in general. Majority of them increase GABA and having calming properties specifically magnesium and they all act in balance/with each other. If you want to use magnesium in isolation magnesium threonate is the most effective for brain issues. Mag chloride works to it just takes long to build up in saturation since it goes all over the body.

Magnesium potentiation of the function of native and recombinant GABA(A) receptors - PubMed
The Role of Magnesium in Neurological Disorders
Treatment Of Magnesium-L-Threonate Elevates The Magnesium Level In The Cerebrospinal Fluid And Attenuates Motor Deficits And Dopamine Neuron Loss In A Mouse Model Of Parkinson’s disease
Magnesium L-threonate prevents and restores memory deficits associated with neuropathic pain by inhibition of TNF-α - PubMed

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Originally Posted by Swill

Thank you, man. Did you get any relief with the mirtazapine, and did you get hyperarousal with your anxiety going on and coming off, as well as the insomnia?

Is there a particular brand of kava you would recommend?

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Hyperarousal of anxiety is unfortunately a common side effect of starting / stopping anti depressant medication. It’s not necessarily related to pre existing conditions. In my case getting on it was not a big problem as I started of at 3.5mg and worked myself up to 15mg over 2 month. I was a lot more anxious, panicky and fearful after stopping though. This passed slowly over the course of months afterwards. I think I had some mild benefits at 15mg, but it is hard to tell as my main comparison is the time I endured shortly after.
The reason I stopped was having intrusive thoughts about being on it and lethargy in the morning. Together with some funky dreaming while awake in the bed. It’s a weird drug that hits a ton of receptors in the brain, and side effects are all over the place for people.

For Kava I recommend Kalmwithkava borongoru for a more relaxed feeling. And bestfijikava’s aaa vanuata if you want to save some money and still get good bang. It’s not cheap unfortunately and it may take a few weeks for it to start having good effect. Make sure you prepare as instructions (knead in warm water with some fat added like coco milk in a strainer bag for at least 15mins) and ingest on an empty stomach. Discard the pulp in a container for later use as you can generally wash some more goodness out of it for a second run.

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Originally Posted by HOPE

This is what I had pre-PSSD. It’s just an anxiety disorder, I think. Focus on your health and on calming down. That’s all really. I wish I could go back to what you describe, it’s much better, and eventually you calm down and everything is fine.

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I've certainly not ruled that out, and have explored those options too in terms of CBT, talk therapy and various methods to look to tackle anxiety (meditation, wim hof breathing, etc). Still doing all I can in that regard, and have avoided an SSRI to date because of worry over PSSD.

Its just that it has presented in such a way when life was good and everything was great on a personal level, and I haven't been able to make any real headway with it over the last 5 months, has made me think there could be something at play here.

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Originally Posted by Swill

I've certainly not ruled that out, and have explored those options too in terms of CBT, talk therapy and various methods to look to tackle anxiety (meditation, wim hof breathing, etc). Still doing all I can in that regard, and have avoided an SSRI to date because of worry over PSSD.

Its just that it has presented in such a way when life was good and everything was great on a personal level, and I haven't been able to make any real headway with it over the last 5 months, has made me think there could be something at play here.

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Actual anxiety disorders, if treated right will usually take anywhere from 1 to 2 years to go into remission, going of the literature I’ve read. That doesn’t mean it will be hell all the time ofc, as symptoms diminish and your brain learns to cope. I’m not in essence against ssri either, but you have to make out for yourself if it is the right choice for you personally. If, like me, you struggle with severe health anxiety and anxiety related to medication, I’d personally lay off em. And ofc sexual sides are a real and common possibility, with varying magnitudes of persistence.

If I were you I’d start going ham with the protocol with a real focus on the mental game. See if you can get some good moments going and develop some confidence. Give it at least half a year or so and then make a decision about going on an ssri. Chances are your stages of grief have passed by then and you will feel empowered enough to tackle this with your own grit. Just having a plan b in the back of your mind might give you enough resilience to make plan a work.

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Originally Posted by Turnover25

Weird stuff, man. I’ll give you my 2 cents.

If your desired never returned, I’d have a suspicion that you truly weren’t “out of the woods” so to speak completely. Maybe you deemed yourself “good enough” and moved on. The medication could have tripped you up a bit if that were the case, not really sure. But anxiety and panic are a thing for normal everyday people, just reading this gave me a bit of fight or flight, so I’d dissect your current life and see if there are any psychological stressors at play.

I was primarily a neurological victim of PFS. Anxiety, panic and inability to handle simple tasks and getting completely overwhelmed by just doing shit like vacuuming my house was a huge, HUGE issue for me. Total nightmare, I get it. But I can assure you it passes. It did for me, and I’ve crashed myself like 3 times with 5ARI’s over my course of this. So even if it has anything to do with PFS, which it probably doesn’t, you’ll be fine either way.

Curious what @Cdsnuts and @Maxout777 thoughts are here

Edit: the more I read this thread, it sounds like a pfs crash. There’s plenty of stories where guys have crashed years later. And my crystal ball with the sides you’re describing was the protocol for a few months, then running a pro hormones cycle. All that BS left after my first cycle and it was a lot easier.

Not to be a dick but I’m not sure what all the random supplement suggestions are about, a lot of guys here didn’t deal with hardcore neurological shit and playing with supplements can seriously fuck you in that department, you don’t want to play with fire. It’s not the same as low libido where you take the wrong supplements and don’t feel horny anymore, if you take something your body doesn’t agree with you’re going to send yourself into a nightmare that you don’t want any part of

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In terms of moving on after being 'good enough,' I hear you but I can assure you I was militant with the protocol over a number of years and got to the point where I felt great in every way aside from never recovering a full (although vastly improved) libido.

I eventually put this down to the fact I had one functioning nut, which from a large number of blood tests I had only got to mid range (around 430 ng/dl). This was done whilst training like a demon, eating super clean, being in great shape, pro hormone and herb cycling and full compliance with the protocol. I figure that genetics as a result were against me being able to fully optimise and get over the line.

Thats why I am now considering TRT as an option, there is a clinic here in the UK that does daily Test Cyp microdosing and HCG, which sounds like the best bet should that be the way to go.

The inability to handle and be overwhelmed with basic tasks has been horrific, I've had a fear of leaving the house and been emotional over not feeling able to wash at points... horrific.

Just wondering, when you had the neurological sides did you find they were at the worst in the morning and earlier part of the day, but tended to ease as the day goes on? Thats the one pattern I have noticed with this and its really puzzled me. The only thing I can think is its linked to my circadian rhythm with my brain overreacting to the cortisol release in the morning.

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Originally Posted by Swill

Just wondering, when you had the neurological sides did you find they were at the worst in the morning and earlier part of the day, but tended to ease as the day goes on? Thats the one pattern I have noticed with this and its really puzzled me. The only thing I can think is its linked to my circadian rhythm with my brain overreacting to the cortisol release in the morning.

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For me personally this was exactly how it went down for me. Panic and anxiety attacks in the first half if the day and then i just felt really ill the latter half as if im came down from something. Then when night came around anxiety started again. But then this rhythm started to change over time so try not to overthink patterns.

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Originally Posted by TubZy

Magnesium and minerals/trace minerals in general. Majority of them increase GABA and having calming properties specifically magnesium and they all act in balance/with each other. If you want to use magnesium in isolation magnesium threonate is the most effective for brain issues. Mag chloride works to it just takes long to build up in saturation since it goes all over the body.

Magnesium potentiation of the function of native and recombinant GABA(A) receptors - PubMed
The Role of Magnesium in Neurological Disorders
Treatment Of Magnesium-L-Threonate Elevates The Magnesium Level In The Cerebrospinal Fluid And Attenuates Motor Deficits And Dopamine Neuron Loss In A Mouse Model Of Parkinson’s disease
Magnesium L-threonate prevents and restores memory deficits associated with neuropathic pain by inhibition of TNF-α - PubMed

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Cheers Tubzy, and good to hear from you! Remember you from the good old days!

I'd been taking natural calm magnesium initially and had switched over to Magnesium Glycinate stacked with Taurine as I read this was the best bet for getting to the brain and calming effect. You'd shoot for Threonate over that?

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Originally Posted by Mojo

Actual anxiety disorders, if treated right will usually take anywhere from 1 to 2 years to go into remission, going of the literature I’ve read. That doesn’t mean it will be hell all the time ofc, as symptoms diminish and your brain learns to cope. I’m not in essence against ssri either, but you have to make out for yourself if it is the right choice for you personally. If, like me, you struggle with severe health anxiety and anxiety related to medication, I’d personally lay off em. And ofc sexual sides are a real and common possibility, with varying magnitudes of persistence.

If I were you I’d start going ham with the protocol with a real focus on the mental game. See if you can get some good moments going and develop some confidence. Give it at least half a year or so and then make a decision about going on an ssri. Chances are your stages of grief have passed by then and you will feel empowered enough to tackle this with your own grit. Just having a plan b in the back of your mind might give you enough resilience to make plan a work.

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Thank you for all your input Mojo, I really appreciate it.

I just really wish I knew what I was dealing with, regarding whether its a 'pure' anxiety disorder or whether it is linked to the PFS. Also quite nervous about being able to 'see it off' due to the genetic issues I mentioned, meaning I have a quite low ceiling and cant fully optimise my hormones... hence me considering the microdosing TRT regimen despite it being something I would much rather not have to go near.

With me being 5 months deep in this, and although work have been great and understanding about this it will only be the case for a short while longer, feeling like I need to roll the dice on it.

Thats why i'm even considering the stem cell therapy into the CSF as an outside bet, figured that although expensive its low risk in that the worst it will do is nothing.

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Originally Posted by Swill

In terms of moving on after being 'good enough,' I hear you but I can assure you I was militant with the protocol over a number of years and got to the point where I felt great in every way aside from never recovering a full (although vastly improved) libido.

I eventually put this down to the fact I had one functioning nut, which from a large number of blood tests I had only got to mid range (around 430 ng/dl). This was done whilst training like a demon, eating super clean, being in great shape, pro hormone and herb cycling and full compliance with the protocol. I figure that genetics as a result were against me being able to fully optimise and get over the line.

Thats why I am now considering TRT as an option, there is a clinic here in the UK that does daily Test Cyp microdosing and HCG, which sounds like the best bet should that be the way to go.

The inability to handle and be overwhelmed with basic tasks has been horrific, I've had a fear of leaving the house and been emotional over not feeling able to wash at points... horrific.

Just wondering, when you had the neurological sides did you find they were at the worst in the morning and earlier part of the day, but tended to ease as the day goes on? Thats the one pattern I have noticed with this and its really puzzled me. The only thing I can think is its linked to my circadian rhythm with my brain overreacting to the cortisol release in the morning.

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I had an extreme anxiety reaction to doing simple tasks and getting overwhelmed, fear of leaving my house and kinda a general paranoia, waking up in the morning was the worst part, also night time my anxiety would become harsh again.

This doesn’t mean you’re dealing with pfs though, a lot of anxiety disorders work like that, especially during the morning. I’d avoid TRT like the plague.

Damn my man. This isn't what I wanted to read when I saw you make a post on here! I'm sorry to hear things have taken a downturn for you bro.

Obviously I think you hit something that needs to be highlighted here, you have one functional gonad. This puts you at a disadvantage testosterone wise, and as much as I love herbs and the ability to boost T with them, if your facilities aren't there - it's going to be quite tough.

Honestly, TRT is not a great long term solution. It can be with the right program dialed in correctly with additional supplementation, but obviously not super recommended here for reasons. I will say, in my personal opinion, it would not hurt to see if TRT helped your situation for a 8-week cycle (NOTE: I am only stating this due to Swill's previous recovery and his own testicular injury/issue. I would NOT say this for anyone here for PFS, thanks) or so to see if this alleviates some of your issues. You may have gotten out of the woods and now your body just isn't keeping up the production.

There's also the route to look into of neurosteroids if you think PFS is still going to be an issue. But I'm personally a fan of attacking angles that seem to be the root cause of issues, and you have lower T, and existing issues in the gonadal department.

Good to hear from you again man even if it isn't on good terms!

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Originally Posted by HOPE

My man, my story does not highlight any stark differences from your story. I had a mild tendency to become anxious, to see the worst in potential outcomes, a drive for perfectionism, but that was it, really. I had a bit of a rough year living abroad for university, after I left home, but nothing to me stood out that I was going to develop an anxiety disorder. One night, as the stress racked, a Caffiene-binged week, and sleepless nights towards the start of the pandemic, and some mild disturbances, was enough to trigger an episode of depersonalization. I had a panic attack the morning after, and was held in severe fight or flight for months. I have heard this story, time and time again - it will always start unexpectedly, when you least expect it. I couldn’t leave the house without an overwhelming feeling of fear rearing it’s head. I spent my days reading and reading, about how and why anxiety happens, when what I should have been doing was… letting go of whatever I was afraid of.

Eventually, fed up,I started to do all the right stuff, going out, eating better, and the sort, and started to see improvements. I went to the gym, enjoyed music, and everything was practically looking up, that is until I had a setback one day (of which I will highlight, that this pattern of thought of doing better, then falling back, then sabotaging your recovery plan is very much a symptom of anxiety itself), and went down the antidepressant route for 10 days… PSSD came right after. It has been an absolute hell, one makes me sit right now and hope I still had panic attacks, still worried about losing my mind. Certainly better, but that is beyond the case. You’re knowledgeable enough not to take anything that can mimic PFS, so that’s enough talk about PSSD.


What I’m trying to say is this: it took me 6 months of hard work to be able to get a real 20 minute break from my anxiety. Indeed, in the way you talk - “could this still be PFS?” is no different than my “Am I developing Schizophreina, Bipolar?”, or “Am I having a heart attack?”. I think you should honestly, go for the TRT micro dose given your history - Low Testosterone can certainly cause these issues, though I am not sure to the extent you are describing. Honestly, you sound like me 6 months ago. Supplemented with CBT and other techniques. I have a great number of sources and tips for overcoming anxiety.

I had all but resolved mine, from being straight up agoraphobic (yes, I wouldn’t leave the house. Doing the laundry was a task to be proud of) to living life again, but it was one set back that drove me to the antidepressant.
It seems to be that these thoughts of wondering whether this is lasting PFS, 8 years after it was gone dormant, or if it could be due for low Testosterone, are anxious thoughts themselves. I was inclined to believe something was deeply wrong with me as well, but the truth is - I was just panicking, and before you know if, you’re in a negative loop. You’re not worried about anything, but worrying about being worried. Then you’re worried about worrying about being worried. It’s a never ending cycle, until you calm down. These are my 2 cents.

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I want to echo this. Anxious thought loops will make everything worse and should be dealt with as soon as you can. Meditation, CBT therapy and general pattern breaking, like exercise and chores, will be helpful.

Thanks for sharing this HOPE, it mirrors my exact experience coming down. I always wondered how much of it was because of an anxiety disorder and what was PFS. In the end I will never know, but they might not be mutually exclusive anyway so there is no point thinking about it much anymore.

The biggest takeaway from all of this is to let go. Don’t over analyze or look for causes, cures or explanations. Accept it for what is it and be ready to invite it into your life for a while. The sooner you can just let it be, you will start to feel improvements and moments of clarity, giving you more confidence and eventually the belief that it will all have an end at some point.

Thank you for all your replies everyone. I can assure you there have been no DHT blocking products or anything used, as you can all imagine I am quite militant with what I put on my body.

And Hope and Mojo, thank you for your replies... I certainly am not jumping to conclusions that this is definitively PFS related. Could be me struggling with my hormones, could be anxiety/depression... all I know is i've never known anything like it. I can very much relate to how you both felt at your worst in your posts.

And I know exactly what you mean Hope when you talk about those racing thoughts. You mention about sources and tips for anxiety in your posts, and these would be gratefully received. I'm happy to give anything a try and appreciate the input.

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Originally Posted by Swill

Thank you for all your replies everyone. I can assure you there have been no DHT blocking products or anything used, as you can all imagine I am quite militant with what I put on my body.

And Hope and Mojo, thank you for your replies... I certainly am not jumping to conclusions that this is definitively PFS related. Could be me struggling with my hormones, could be anxiety/depression... all I know is i've never known anything like it. I can very much relate to how you both felt at your worst in your posts.

And I know exactly what you mean Hope when you talk about those racing thoughts. You mention about sources and tips for anxiety in your posts, and these would be gratefully received. I'm happy to give anything a try and appreciate the input.

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This is just my input, but you can test yourself to see what's off that is causing the symptoms. We already know the common PFS chemistry patterns of what's off from everyone testing with ZRT lab, like low Glutamate, low GABA, low Allopregnanolone (and other hormones/neurosteroids) in CSF + serum (yet high in urine from high catabolism), low catecholamines, altered amino acid profiles, low acetylcholine, low IGF-1 (caused by low GH), etc.

You can get test kits, if you want, at canaryclub.org and figure out what's wrong.

You can also get straight Allopregnanolone for anxiety relief and potential pro-libido boost at idealabsdc.com/lab. A few PFS'ers have tried that out already and noted mild Xanax-like effects, since it binds to and agonizes GABAA receptors same as benzodiazepines/Xanax.

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Originally Posted by JoeP26

This is just my input, but you can test yourself to see what's off that is causing the symptoms. We already know the common PFS chemistry patterns of what's off from everyone testing with ZRT lab, like low Glutamate, low GABA, low Allopregnanolone (and other hormones/neurosteroids) in CSF + serum (yet high in urine from high catabolism), low catecholamines, altered amino acid profiles, low acetylcholine, low IGF-1 (caused by low GH), etc.

You can get test kits, if you want, at canaryclub.org and figure out what's wrong.

You can also get straight Allopregnanolone for anxiety relief and potential pro-libido boost at idealabsdc.com/lab. A few PFS'ers have tried that out already and noted mild Xanax-like effects, since it binds to and agonizes GABAA receptors same as benzodiazepines/Xanax.

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Thank you for this dude, it is much appreciated. I had heard of the ZRT testing but I wasn't sure if it was accurate/legit.

Of note I had some 5a-DHP left over from years back, which I tried along with the protocol to see if it improved sexual function. I can't really remember it having any benefit in that regard, but I wasn't having any mental issues back then. CD actually recommended I give it a try again a couple days back and over the last two days my sleep has been a bit better and the anxiety has been a bit more muted, so I think it has had an effect. Far from a fix, but took the edge off a little.

I read on the site you provided me a link to that allopregnanolone would be a fair better bet than 5a-DHP, and has fewer knock on effects and as a result they discontinued the 5a-DHP when the allo became available. I have ordered it and will certainly give it a go, thank you dude. Any idea what doses people have experimented with? I was taking 3mg of the 5a-DHP just before bed.

Apologies but i'm very new to this neurosteroid stuff, all of my previous focus was on sex hormone levels initially and then on the protocol. Any idea if supplementing with allopregnanolone could lead to an upregulation naturally with time, or is it a 'band aid' approach?

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Originally Posted by Swill

Thank you for this dude, it is much appreciated. I had heard of the ZRT testing but I wasn't sure if it was accurate/legit.

Of note I had some 5a-DHP left over from years back, which I tried along with the protocol to see if it improved sexual function. I can't really remember it having any benefit in that regard, but I wasn't having any mental issues back then. CD actually recommended I give it a try again a couple days back and over the last two days my sleep has been a bit better and the anxiety has been a bit more muted, so I think it has had an effect. Far from a fix, but took the edge off a little.

I read on the site you provided me a link to that allopregnanolone would be a fair better bet than 5a-DHP, and has fewer knock on effects and as a result they discontinued the 5a-DHP when the allo became available. I have ordered it and will certainly give it a go, thank you dude. Any idea what doses people have experimented with? I was taking 3mg of the 5a-DHP just before bed.

Apologies but i'm very new to this neurosteroid stuff, all of my previous focus was on sex hormone levels initially and then on the protocol. Any idea if supplementing with allopregnanolone could lead to an upregulation naturally with time, or is it a 'band aid' approach?

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What I will say is, if you’re dealing with anxiety, panic, overwhelming sensation doing tasks, overall sense of dread, that should be a relatively easy fix. That was all the first to go for me.

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Originally Posted by Turnover25

What I will say is, if you’re dealing with anxiety, panic, overwhelming sensation doing tasks, overall sense of dread, that should be a relatively easy fix. That was all the first to go for me.

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What did you do to see it off, brother? Was it just hitting CD's protocol, or did you use allo/5a-DHP? The 5a-DHP seems to have helped take the edge off the fight or flight firing and improved sleep but still feeling crushing depression and total anhedonia still, suicidal at points.

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Originally Posted by Swill

What did you do to see it off, brother? Was it just hitting CD's protocol, or did you use allo/5a-DHP? The 5a-DHP seems to have helped take the edge off the fight or flight firing and improved sleep but still feeling crushing depression and total anhedonia still, suicidal at points.

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The protocol for a few months (I did 8, you can do less) then hitting the prohormone cycles. I’m on my 4th one, but the anxiety, panic, inability to handle stress, general malaise was gone after my 1st one.

The depression/anhedonia, in my experience, is a bit trickier as I still deal with that and it’s my largest complaint now, but this week is my 2nd week on cycle and I’m beginning to feel emotions flicker on and off, like the feeling of dopamine or serotonin actually being utilized, this happened my last cycle as well. Can’t say for sure how long it will take to come back online for good, but I know from experience that this is the correct route, based on how I’ve felt the past 2 years and everything I did/tried to get here. And it just feels stronger and more pronounced this go-around.

Some thoughts about neurotransmitter testing. It will never be completely accurate as you can’t test levels in the brain directly, leaving you with guesswork as to why tests show up as they do. Second, low gaba / allo etc is not exclusive to PFS as people going through an anxiety disorder will experience the same lowered levels. Honestly the test might be worthless to you as the result will most likely just confirm how you are feeling, which is bad.

Overloading yourself with information will just add to the chronic thoughts about what is going on with you and what to do to fix it.

I do want to add a supplement here that is never really mentioned. I started taking Saffron half a year ago and since then I’ve gotten this subtle improvement of feeling I am more in control of what is going on and it’s no longer a constant nightmare. It will not directly lower your anxiety but it left me feeling I had more confidence to tackle it without going insane.
It is the supplement that has helped me the most when combined with mental work to find stable ground.

If you want tips about dealing with anxiety:
- meditation and breath work
- pattern breaking: if you feel you are getting overwhelmed by negative thoughts and stress, break up what you are doing currently and do chores or go out for a walk.
- practice mindfulness during daily activities: just notice stuff around you. Focus on sounds and objects to be in the moment for a few seconds.
- celebrate good thoughts and feelings: don’t brush them of as temporary or fake. It is easy to fool yourself into thinking negativity is the base norm. I did the same thing. Good episodes might be short, but they are how you should be feeling, not the other way around.
- listen yo binaural tracks (easy to find playlists on spotify)
- do something creative like play music, write poetry or something.

I went to therapy for a while and made good progress. I was taught to stop using the prefrontal cortex when it comes to anxiety. That part of the brain is used to solve clear issues, like danger or hunger. It is not designed to solve longterm stress with no easy solution. It will overload and leave you stuck in a prolonged fight or flight. Use your prefrontal cortex to observe and then pass that information to the back of your mind to let that deal with reprogramming. If you feel bad and fearful, just observe and leave it at that. Let the back of your brain know that there is no immediate danger and it will reprogram it over time to no longer recognize the doubt and fear you are experiencing as a life threatening event, lowering anxiety and boosting resilience.

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Originally Posted by Mojo

Some thoughts about neurotransmitter testing. It will never be completely accurate as you can’t test levels in the brain directly, leaving you with guesswork as to why tests show up as they do. Second, low gaba / allo etc is not exclusive to PFS as people going through an anxiety disorder will experience the same lowered levels. Honestly the test might be worthless to you as the result will most likely just confirm how you are feeling, which is bad.

Overloading yourself with information will just add to the chronic thoughts about what is going on with you and what to do to fix it.

I do want to add a supplement here that is never really mentioned. I started taking Saffron half a year ago and since then I’ve gotten this subtle improvement of feeling I am more in control of what is going on and it’s no longer a constant nightmare. It will not directly lower your anxiety but it left me feeling I had more confidence to tackle it without going insane.
It is the supplement that has helped me the most when combined with mental work to find stable ground.

If you want tips about dealing with anxiety:
- meditation and breath work
- pattern breaking: if you feel you are getting overwhelmed by negative thoughts and stress, break up what you are doing currently and do chores or go out for a walk.
- practice mindfulness during daily activities: just notice stuff around you. Focus on sounds and objects to be in the moment for a few seconds.
- celebrate good thoughts and feelings: don’t brush them of as temporary or fake. It is easy to fool yourself into thinking negativity is the base norm. I did the same thing. Good episodes might be short, but they are how you should be feeling, not the other way around.
- listen yo binaural tracks (easy to find playlists on spotify)
- do something creative like play music, write poetry or something.

I went to therapy for a while and made good progress. I was taught to stop using the prefrontal cortex when it comes to anxiety. That part of the brain is used to solve clear issues, like danger or hunger. It is not designed to solve longterm stress with no easy solution. It will overload and leave you stuck in a prolonged fight or flight. Use your prefrontal cortex to observe and then pass that information to the back of your mind to let that deal with reprogramming. If you feel bad and fearful, just observe and leave it at that. Let the back of your brain know that there is no immediate danger and it will reprogram it over time to no longer recognize the doubt and fear you are experiencing as a life threatening event, lowering anxiety and boosting resilience.

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Although it's not completely representative of what's in the brain, a lot of what's in the body does cross the brain barrier, hence the oral and topical prohormones used on here. Otherwise it would be pointless. And just because those markers aren't just associated with just PFS doesn't mean they can't help indicate problems to fix. I ran those tests and they were some of the most important tests I had done throughout all of this. I supplemented appropriately and had benefits. Some of you on here have your way of going about things blindly aiming at targets in the dark and that's fine. But to completely toss out diagnostic tests because of some underlying hatred of medicine (understandably so) is just weird. PFS'ers do indeed have consistent altered neurotransmitter levels explaining many of the symptoms. So much so that researchers are now investigating our levels more in depth and causations. I've seen dozens of them. And ZRT breaks down the results in Laymans terms then make easy to understand recommendations of supplements to use that in the protocol here to boost those levels. It's not some useless thing to do. Just a benefit for those that want to know themselves a bit better.

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Originally Posted by Turnover25

The protocol for a few months (I did 8, you can do less) then hitting the prohormone cycles. I’m on my 4th one, but the anxiety, panic, inability to handle stress, general malaise was gone after my 1st one.

The depression/anhedonia, in my experience, is a bit trickier as I still deal with that and it’s my largest complaint now, but this week is my 2nd week on cycle and I’m beginning to feel emotions flicker on and off, like the feeling of dopamine or serotonin actually being utilized, this happened my last cycle as well. Can’t say for sure how long it will take to come back online for good, but I know from experience that this is the correct route, based on how I’ve felt the past 2 years and everything I did/tried to get here. And it just feels stronger and more pronounced this go-around.

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Did you start cycling while still dealing with the anxiety? I'm struggling with bad anxiety at the moment, hadn't had any bad anxiety fir over a year till this hit. I think it was caused by elemental diet and kratom. Anyway. I want to start cycling as I've been on protocol for a long while, but I'm a little afraid to start in this significant downswing.

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Originally Posted by Swill

Thank you for this dude, it is much appreciated. I had heard of the ZRT testing but I wasn't sure if it was accurate/legit.

Of note I had some 5a-DHP left over from years back, which I tried along with the protocol to see if it improved sexual function. I can't really remember it having any benefit in that regard, but I wasn't having any mental issues back then. CD actually recommended I give it a try again a couple days back and over the last two days my sleep has been a bit better and the anxiety has been a bit more muted, so I think it has had an effect. Far from a fix, but took the edge off a little.

I read on the site you provided me a link to that allopregnanolone would be a fair better bet than 5a-DHP, and has fewer knock on effects and as a result they discontinued the 5a-DHP when the allo became available. I have ordered it and will certainly give it a go, thank you dude. Any idea what doses people have experimented with? I was taking 3mg of the 5a-DHP just before bed.

Apologies but i'm very new to this neurosteroid stuff, all of my previous focus was on sex hormone levels initially and then on the protocol. Any idea if supplementing with allopregnanolone could lead to an upregulation naturally with time, or is it a 'band aid' approach?

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Hey man, I really hope you're doing better. I saw you ordered some allo. I just did as well, suppose to be here Sat. Have you tried it yet? Has it helped? I hoping yes

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Originally Posted by Jado

Did you start cycling while still dealing with the anxiety? I'm struggling with bad anxiety at the moment, hadn't had any bad anxiety fir over a year till this hit. I think it was caused by elemental diet and kratom. Anyway. I want to start cycling as I've been on protocol for a long while, but I'm a little afraid to start in this significant downswing.

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Go check out my thread I wrote during my first cycle. I felt terrible that day before I started

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Originally Posted by Turnover25

Go check out my thread I wrote during my first cycle. I felt terrible that day before I started

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Ok cool, I go check it out. Thanks, man.