All about prohormones/Ultra Hard...

Fairly involved set of questions here. I hope some with experience on this topic will attempt to address these concerns, as this post can serve as a helpful condensation of prohormone related questions for newcomers in the future as well.

I'm coming up on 2 months on the protocol, and thinking of waiting closer to 3 to begin my first prohormone run, but I want to clear up some of the major questions I have about this topic beforehand so that I am mentally and physically prepared to get the most out of this. Naturally, I have a few questions I hope some of you can address for me...

Firstly, I have this tendency to get somewhat overwhelmed whenever I begin to do PH research, and its mostly due to the seemingly vast number of PH's I see referenced by various users here over the years coupled with my general lack of background knowledge on the topic. There's AndroHard, UltraHard, Alpha Four, Super R Andro, Androvar, R Andro Rx, etc., and I've noticed that, over the years, differing PH's have been the primary recommendations for PFS, so my question here is, generally, why is UltraHard currently the number one recommended PH for our condition precisely? Are those used by Maxout years ago just not as good compared to UltraHard, or have they stopped offering them, or what gives precisely for the changing recommendation over time?

Secondly, I've seen a few users on here say that pure epiandrosterone caused a lowering of libido, and since it is included in Ultra Hard, I'm just wondering why this isn't a concern? Is the androsterone content sufficient to mitigate that effect?

...so those are general background questions, and now my specific questions regarding use of the product (assuming for now that I am for sure going to run Ultra Hard):

I've seen it recommended on this forum to increase your carb intake and have a source of potassium while on PH's, and I want to be sure I understand this aspect correctly, since the last thing I want to do is cause more problems for myself. Am I correct in inferring that we should eat carbs throughout the entire day, still favoring post-workout P.M. windows for highest carb intake (backloading), during the entire 6-8 week run?

On the same general nutritional topic, is eating a few bananas throughout the day also a good way to combat the potassium deficiency risk? Regarding coconut water, how much of this should we intake while on the PH's, a bottle a day? More or less?

Before I move on from the nutritional and dietary side of things, please let me know if there is anything else to be aware of/incorporate into/cut out of/limit intake of while on PH's.

I just want to know if there are any signs to be on the lookout for. Ive seen at least one user say that he felt really terrible once beginning PH's (I believe he cited suicidal feelings), and CD suggested he abort the cycle and go back to herb cycling for a while before returning to PHs. However, I've also seen many users state that weathering ups and downs is sometimes just a part of the PH run, and that you should stick with it until you reach your intended 6 or 8 week mark. So, basically, I'm wondering precisely what is the indication you should actually abort the mission versus push through? Is it suicidal feelings, extreme joint pain or lethargy, or something else? Any other major warning signs that you aren't agreeing with the cycle to be on the lookout for?

As far as PCT goes, please correct me if I am wrong here, but the day after our last day on PH cycle, we go right back to the herbs as we were doing before?

Regarding storage, is the fridge a recommended place to keep the bottles of Ultra Hard, or simply a cabinet with no light exposure?

Lastly, I know that using herbs during PH runs is wasteful, and not recommended, but is pine pollen powder also advised against during cycle?

....I know that was a lot of questions, but thank you for making it through. Anything important youd like to add on the topic, please let me know!

I also forgot to add a questions regarding dosage. If I am going to start at 3 pumps per day, would it be best to apply all 3 pumps at the same time of day, or is it good to break it up? I understand you likely don't want to apply this at night, but would it be of any value to do 2 pumps in the morning and one in the afternoon, or maybe just a few hours later?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lastnoirking87

Fairly involved set of questions here. I hope some with experience on this topic will attempt to address these concerns, as this post can serve as a helpful condensation of prohormone related questions for newcomers in the future as well.

I'm coming up on 2 months on the protocol, and thinking of waiting closer to 3 to begin my first prohormone run, but I want to clear up some of the major questions I have about this topic beforehand so that I am mentally and physically prepared to get the most out of this. Naturally, I have a few questions I hope some of you can address for me...

Firstly, I have this tendency to get somewhat overwhelmed whenever I begin to do PH research, and its mostly due to the seemingly vast number of PH's I see referenced by various users here over the years coupled with my general lack of background knowledge on the topic. There's AndroHard, UltraHard, Alpha Four, Super R Andro, Androvar, R Andro Rx, etc., and I've noticed that, over the years, differing PH's have been the primary recommendations for PFS, so my question here is, generally, why is UltraHard currently the number one recommended PH for our condition precisely? Are those used by Maxout years ago just not as good compared to UltraHard, or have they stopped offering them, or what gives precisely for the changing recommendation over time?

Secondly, I've seen a few users on here say that pure epiandrosterone caused a lowering of libido, and since it is included in Ultra Hard, I'm just wondering why this isn't a concern? Is the androsterone content sufficient to mitigate that effect?

...so those are general background questions, and now my specific questions regarding use of the product (assuming for now that I am for sure going to run Ultra Hard):

I've seen it recommended on this forum to increase your carb intake and have a source of potassium while on PH's, and I want to be sure I understand this aspect correctly, since the last thing I want to do is cause more problems for myself. Am I correct in inferring that we should eat carbs throughout the entire day, still favoring post-workout P.M. windows for highest carb intake (backloading), during the entire 6-8 week run?

On the same general nutritional topic, is eating a few bananas throughout the day also a good way to combat the potassium deficiency risk? Regarding coconut water, how much of this should we intake while on the PH's, a bottle a day? More or less?

Before I move on from the nutritional and dietary side of things, please let me know if there is anything else to be aware of/incorporate into/cut out of/limit intake of while on PH's.

I just want to know if there are any signs to be on the lookout for. Ive seen at least one user say that he felt really terrible once beginning PH's (I believe he cited suicidal feelings), and CD suggested he abort the cycle and go back to herb cycling for a while before returning to PHs. However, I've also seen many users state that weathering ups and downs is sometimes just a part of the PH run, and that you should stick with it until you reach your intended 6 or 8 week mark. So, basically, I'm wondering precisely what is the indication you should actually abort the mission versus push through? Is it suicidal feelings, extreme joint pain or lethargy, or something else? Any other major warning signs that you aren't agreeing with the cycle to be on the lookout for?

As far as PCT goes, please correct me if I am wrong here, but the day after our last day on PH cycle, we go right back to the herbs as we were doing before?

Regarding storage, is the fridge a recommended place to keep the bottles of Ultra Hard, or simply a cabinet with no light exposure?

Lastly, I know that using herbs during PH runs is wasteful, and not recommended, but is pine pollen powder also advised against during cycle?

....I know that was a lot of questions, but thank you for making it through. Anything important youd like to add on the topic, please let me know!

---

Thanks for posting this dude as I decided to push off starting my UH run until this upcoming weekend to get another week of herbs in. To answer a couple of questions based on sifting through the forum is that it seems like the ones that Maxout took (super r andro rx) have been discontinued . CD on recovery thread also mentioned that carbs fair game during cycle but to pound them down at night still. Figured on also stocking up on coconut water for that potassium replenishment lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AltRoute

Thanks for posting this dude as I decided to push off starting my UH run until this upcoming weekend to get another week of herbs in. To answer a couple of questions based on sifting through the forum is that it seems like the ones that Maxout took (super r andro rx) have been discontinued . CD on recovery thread also mentioned that carbs fair game during cycle but to pound them down at night still. Figured on also stocking up on coconut water for that potassium replenishment lol

---

Yeah, I think you and I have been progressing along similar timelines. I was like this before I started cycling herbs, with lots of questions and apprehensions, but now I'm constantly looking to add more in and taking higher does of certain ones. That's kind of how I am with everything in life. Once I get into the swing of something, I become fanatical. I just want to be sure I'm doing everything right with these PHs so that I get to the same degree of comfort with them as I've gotten with the herbs and everything else in the protocol thus far. Not to mention, it's been such smooth sailing with everything up to this point, the idea of throwing something off is admittedly dreadful to me. On the other hand, the idea of catapulting my progress is utmostly tantalizing.
Please keep us updated on your progress throughout your UH run. I'll do the same when my time comes...and thanks for answering some of my questions.

Hey man, great questions – I don’t have all the answers you’re looking for, but I can offer some insight into my experience and that might help shape your plan going forward. Everyone reacts differently to these things, and at the end of the day, only you can really determine what’s best for you, whether that’s carb timing or ending your run.

Easy ones first: I keep my UH in a closet – works just fine. I ramped up my dosage slowly, and this seemed to work really well. I recommend going slow and at your comfort level. Eventually you’re going to get to 3, 4, 5 pumps a day, and that’s when I’d start the 5-8 week timer. PCT is herbs day one after cycle – it’s just as important as the cycle itself imo. No pine pollen on cycle.

Re: potassium, I’m in camp coconut water. If you can afford it, go with the ‘Harmless’ brand – nothing else compares to it. It’s a good way to cover your bases if you’re worried about potassium wasting. See my log for adrenal cocktail recipe I had everyday on cycle. It’s also a good way to increase carb intake. Re: carbs, this is really just to supplement the fire the PHs are going to start. There’s a myriad of reasons and mechanisms that are at play, but generally, it’s always a safe bet to ensure you’re in a caloric surplus when you ramp up your metabolic processes and needs with things like exogenous PHs. That’s what they are: pro-hormones. More hormones, increased signaling, increased metabolism. You do not want to be running on fumes already when this goes down. There’s also all sorts of interesting things re: insulin sensitivity that you’ll want to take advantage of with carb supplementation. But it doesn’t honestly take a lot, and a cup of coconut water and an extra serving of sweet potatoes after workouts worked for me.

Most importantly: anchor yourself and your decision and trust it. You’re going to have swings. You’re only three months in. I was having violent swings all the way past a year, and I don’t think I could have avoided them, even if I did everything perfectly. I think our bodies are a Rubik’s cube of sorts, and we got scrambled up pretty good. You can never solve all faces of the cube simultaneously, and I think swings are the natural reshuffling of our bodies Rubik’s cube. The analogy holds, because as you get closer to solving a Rubik’s cube, the shifts necessary to get the squares where you need them to go become less dramatic and more of the faces are solved at that time. That’s why the swings still occur, but you know you’re on the right track since they become less intense and less frequent. I’m rambling but whatever. This is all to say –

I would give yourself some more time. I wish I had done mine sooner, but I’m glad i waited until i did. Im not sure I would have been capable of reaping the benefits that I did in the state I was in even 6 months on protocol. I would have swung, convinced myself “the PHs made me worse’, and I would have set myself back because of the psychological shit I would have created and perpetuated all on my own accord. At the end of the day, I think there’s an inflection point in everyone’s journey here where they finally say fuck it and let go and all of a sudden it’s progress. If you’re there, then PHs will catapult you even further. But just by the detail of your post and of your own admission, I can tell that any negative experience could quickly throw off your groove and send you the wrong direction. I know because I see myself a year ago writing the exact same thing and I know now that I wasn’t quite ready.

But everyone’s different, and ultimately, I can vouch for the protocol. PHs will not make you worse off in the long run, so really it’s a matter of your own tolerance threshold for the things you said you are worried about. If those occur, they might suck for a bit, but you’ll get back to where you are now and then some eventually and you can try again then.

All the best and good luck!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ratchet_V2

Hey man, great questions – I don’t have all the answers you’re looking for, but I can offer some insight into my experience and that might help shape your plan going forward. Everyone reacts differently to these things, and at the end of the day, only you can really determine what’s best for you, whether that’s carb timing or ending your run.

Easy ones first: I keep my UH in a closet – works just fine. I ramped up my dosage slowly, and this seemed to work really well. I recommend going slow and at your comfort level. Eventually you’re going to get to 3, 4, 5 pumps a day, and that’s when I’d start the 5-8 week timer. PCT is herbs day one after cycle – it’s just as important as the cycle itself imo. No pine pollen on cycle.

Re: potassium, I’m in camp coconut water. If you can afford it, go with the ‘Harmless’ brand – nothing else compares to it. It’s a good way to cover your bases if you’re worried about potassium wasting. See my log for adrenal cocktail recipe I had everyday on cycle. It’s also a good way to increase carb intake. Re: carbs, this is really just to supplement the fire the PHs are going to start. There’s a myriad of reasons and mechanisms that are at play, but generally, it’s always a safe bet to ensure you’re in a caloric surplus when you ramp up your metabolic processes and needs with things like exogenous PHs. That’s what they are: pro-hormones. More hormones, increased signaling, increased metabolism. You do not want to be running on fumes already when this goes down. There’s also all sorts of interesting things re: insulin sensitivity that you’ll want to take advantage of with carb supplementation. But it doesn’t honestly take a lot, and a cup of coconut water and an extra serving of sweet potatoes after workouts worked for me.

Most importantly: anchor yourself and your decision and trust it. You’re going to have swings. You’re only three months in. I was having violent swings all the way past a year, and I don’t think I could have avoided them, even if I did everything perfectly. I think our bodies are a Rubik’s cube of sorts, and we got scrambled up pretty good. You can never solve all faces of the cube simultaneously, and I think swings are the natural reshuffling of our bodies Rubik’s cube. The analogy holds, because as you get closer to solving a Rubik’s cube, the shifts necessary to get the squares where you need them to go become less dramatic and more of the faces are solved at that time. That’s why the swings still occur, but you know you’re on the right track since they become less intense and less frequent. I’m rambling but whatever. This is all to say –

I would give yourself some more time. I wish I had done mine sooner, but I’m glad i waited until i did. Im not sure I would have been capable of reaping the benefits that I did in the state I was in even 6 months on protocol. I would have swung, convinced myself “the PHs made me worse’, and I would have set myself back because of the psychological shit I would have created and perpetuated all on my own accord. At the end of the day, I think there’s an inflection point in everyone’s journey here where they finally say fuck it and let go and all of a sudden it’s progress. If you’re there, then PHs will catapult you even further. But just by the detail of your post and of your own admission, I can tell that any negative experience could quickly throw off your groove and send you the wrong direction. I know because I see myself a year ago writing the exact same thing and I know now that I wasn’t quite ready.

But everyone’s different, and ultimately, I can vouch for the protocol. PHs will not make you worse off in the long run, so really it’s a matter of your own tolerance threshold for the things you said you are worried about. If those occur, they might suck for a bit, but you’ll get back to where you are now and then some eventually and you can try again then.

All the best and good luck!

---

Where to start...thanks a ton for this in depth reply. Before I say anything else, I have to say that the rubik's cube analogy is so dead on, I cant believe it hadnt occured to me yet. I mean truly, the upswings and downswings are so like the continual reshuffling of the cube, it's crazy.

I hear you entirely on the timing and comfort level being of utmost importance. I am only recently breaking out of the tendency to overthink little things and learning to more or less ignore the ups and downs rather than try to pinpoint specific things I did that may have caused downswings. This recent week long brush with normalcy (which actually came on the heels of a week long illness!) has taught me to cut that crap out, as it really boils down to nothing more than excess stress, and of course we dont need that. I'm going to wait till the 3 month mark and see how I'm doing. In the meantime, I've got 2 bottles on the way and I'm going to look through your log for the recipe you spoke of, in addition to any other helpful PH insight.
Thanks again, this was a huge help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lastnoirking87

Yeah, I think you and I have been progressing along similar timelines. I was like this before I started cycling herbs, with lots of questions and apprehensions, but now I'm constantly looking to add more in and taking higher does of certain ones. That's kind of how I am with everything in life. Once I get into the swing of something, I become fanatical. I just want to be sure I'm doing everything right with these PHs so that I get to the same degree of comfort with them as I've gotten with the herbs and everything else in the protocol thus far. Not to mention, it's been such smooth sailing with everything up to this point, the idea of throwing something off is admittedly dreadful to me. On the other hand, the idea of catapulting my progress is utmostly tantalizing.
Please keep us updated on your progress throughout your UH run. I'll do the same when my time comes...and thanks for answering some of my questions.

---

I most definitely will. I’ll be pushing it off until next week as I won’t be eating the cleanest for a couple days and want to make sure my body is in a good state. Also after Rachets posts it makes complete sense with the Rubik’s cube analogy and making sure your ready emotionally for the PH. I’ll still be going ahead as I haven’t been in a shit storm with Anxiety since end of December but maybe a low dose throughout entire duration (2-3 pumps )

Can someone fill me in on precisely how to stack Alpha 4 and UltraHard? I mean, I am looking for details. Do you do them both the whole cycle, and at what sort of ratio? I am going to get my Estrogen checked, because Saw Palmetto is known to lower estrogen in users, so in the event mine is very low, I will be looking at this combo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lastnoirking87

Can someone fill me in on precisely how to stack Alpha 4 and UltraHard? I mean, I am looking for details. Do you do them both the whole cycle, and at what sort of ratio? I am going to get my Estrogen checked, because Saw Palmetto is known to lower estrogen in users, so in the event mine is very low, I will be looking at this combo.

---

It depends.

You have to feel it out.

If the DHT is crushing your E, you'll feel stiff, painful joints, lowered libido, shrinkage, etc. you'll also look dry AF.

Start with a pump or two daily and assess from there.

Is Alpha 4 helping with stabilizing Estrogen when its too low because of ultrahard?

If so, how should it be combined?

I am running 4 week ultrahard cycles with 4 weeks of. My PFS improves with every cycle.

Estrogen is below range though. Should i be concerned about that?

Besides Alpha Four, are there other things that can ramp up estrogen?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tonster96

If so, how should it be combined?

I am running 4 week ultrahard cycles with 4 weeks of. My PFS improves with every cycle.

Estrogen is below range though. Should i be concerned about that?

Besides Alpha Four, are there other things that can ramp up estrogen?

---

Wanted to chime in since I recently finished a 4 week cycle of both ultra hard and A4.

If your below range , maybe start with a 1-1 pump split of uh-a4, and then increase A4 from there.

Originally was planning on doing a Uh only cycle, but after 3-4 days or doing 2 pumps a day I was very achey, skrinkage of dick, sleepy, etc. most likely crushed estrogen. I started adding in A4 and felt immediately better. Towards end of Cycle, I was even doing like 4-5 uh-A4 pump splits because the A4 made me very euphoric , which was nice. Plus I think it’s easier to come down from high estrogen rather than vice versa.

I’m going to run same cycle of combo, but maybe use the A4 everyother day, at like 3 pumps max. I saw a thread of CD doing something similar . I’msure I’m missing stuff but Feel free to PM for more details on it

Thanks AltRoute,

how do you split the two?

Lets say i would usually do 4 pumps UH. Would that translate then to 2 UH and 2 A4 (or 3 UH and 1 A4)?

Or do you take UH as you would normally do (in this example 4 pumps) and add some pumps Alpha 4 on top of it?

Np. Jjust to clarify in case If I didn’t make sense was if I was doing 4-4 or 4-5 uh/Ah pump splits, That’d be 8 or 9 total pumps of hormones onto the body per morning (4 uh pumps, 5 A4 pumps)

But yes, that 2nd example you mentioned is ideal. Definitely listen to your body though. Since your already low on E maybe add the A4 to begin the cycle with the Uh and work your way up to 3-4 pumps of each a day, then access.

Wow, 9 pumps sounds a lot. But it makes sense now.

E was below range 4 weeks ago, exactly after my last cycle. Today got result from one week ago (3 weeks after last cycle) and it was exactly at lower end of range. Should be a little bit higher now.

Will start my next uh cycle the day after tomorrow. Will start with 2 pumps for the first days and go from there and see how i feel. I will order Alpha 4 now and have the option to add it when it arrives, depending how i feel.

Thanks for your input.

Dps Nutrition has the scoop on the alpha four if you were looking. Might even get a free tank like I did with the order, lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AltRoute

Dps Nutrition has the scoop on the alpha four if you were looking. Might even get a free tank like I did with the order, lol

---

You seem to know a lot about the prohormones, so I was wondering if you had any suggestions for me before I go back on them.

Since Ultrahard gives me terrible insomnia, I got Super R Andro. In the past I used it for I think maybe a week or two, but I didn’t notice any effects with two pumps per day.

When I try it again, should I increase the dose to 3 or 4 pumps if I don’t notice effects in the first week? Would adding Alpha Four help me get benefits from the Super R Andro, or is it just to help with low estrogen symptoms? Thanks!

Hey LetsGo,

did you apply ultrahard first thing in the morning or later in the day?

I always do it first thing in the morning because otherwise my sleep is like shit as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tonster96

Hey LetsGo,

did you apply ultrahard first thing in the morning or later in the day?

I always do it first thing in the morning because otherwise my sleep is like shit as well.

---

I always applied it when I woke up at 7:30 AM, and it would keep me wiiiiiiiide awake until about 3 - 4 AM. I am extremely sensitive to stimulants.

Same thing with the eleuthero herb - taking it at 7:30 kept me up past 3 AM every single time without fail.

Wow, okay. Thats bad, nothing you can do about than. Hope someone answers your questions.

Yup, I’m just astonishingly sensitive to all stimulants.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LetsGo

You seem to know a lot about the prohormones, so I was wondering if you had any suggestions for me before I go back on them.

Since Ultrahard gives me terrible insomnia, I got Super R Andro. In the past I used it for I think maybe a week or two, but I didn’t notice any effects with two pumps per day.

When I try it again, should I increase the dose to 3 or 4 pumps if I don’t notice effects in the first week? Would adding Alpha Four help me get benefits from the Super R Andro, or is it just to help with low estrogen symptoms? Thanks!

---

FAR from a prohormone expert , especially with my last cycle trying to understand why I was so suppressed early on in cycle LOL.

To answer the question, I’m not familiar with Super R. I originally wanted to take that wayyy before I got entrenched in protocol, but decided to follow recommendations from site. But yeah, definitely increase dosage if you weren’t feeling negative on 2 pumps.

For Alpha 4, probably going to have to play around with that based on feel. People on here have said they’ve felt like a complete beast adding in A4 with the DHt prohormone, for me I just felt more euphoric . It will definitely help with low E that’s Forsure.

Sorry I couldn’t be of more help. These things won’t fuck you up as they are not that suppressive so as long as your following protocol play around with it and adjust as needed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AltRoute

FAR from a prohormone expert , especially with my last cycle trying to understand why I was so suppressed early on in cycle LOL.

To answer the question, I’m not familiar with Super R. I originally wanted to take that wayyy before I got entrenched in protocol, but decided to follow recommendations from site. But yeah, definitely increase dosage if you weren’t feeling negative on 2 pumps.

For Alpha 4, probably going to have to play around with that based on feel. People on here have said they’ve felt like a complete beast adding in A4 with the DHt prohormone, for me I just felt more euphoric . It will definitely help with low E that’s Forsure.

Sorry I couldn’t be of more help. These things won’t fuck you up as they are not that suppressive so as long as your following protocol play around with it and adjust as needed

---

That’s okay. CD himself said that to use Super R if you get insomnia side effects from Ultrahard. Super R is converted by the body into DHT, like Ultrahard.

The more testosterone that is converted into DHT, the less there is to convert to estrogen, which I think can lead to the low estrogen levels. The Alpha Four has DHEA which can be converted into testosterone, or it helps make more testosterone, and then there would I guess be enough to make enough estrogen.

Thanks for the help, I will consider getting some Alpha Four before I jump back on the Super R Andro.

Just curious, maybe someone can explain:

Does ultrahard really convert testosterone in DHT. I thought ultrahard itself is acting similar to DHT.

How does ultrahard supress estrogen?
How does Alpha Four raise estrogen?