Consistently Awful Sleep

One of the biggest things I need to fix is my sleep. It’s holding me back in many ways; I’m consistently getting about 5.5 hours of sleep each night, and I feel like a zombie. I’m sure it’s helping to keep my testosterone low as well.

I try going to bed at 10 PM, but I just lay there for a very long time, wide awake, and then eventually grab my phone and waste a bunch of time looking up wikipedia articles or news until I finally feel sleepy, and then I fall asleep instantly. The problem is that that’s 2:30 AM and I have to wake up around 8 AM.

I try the sleep herbs, and they make a marginal difference, nothing seems to make a big difference. This is only partly about PFS, I have plenty of time to get a full night of sleep every day, but my body just won’t cooperate. If I was fully rested I’d feel much better and get more done, and it would be easier to work out. It’s so much harder to work out when all I want to do is take a nap after work. (Forget about before work, I need every bit of sleep I can get, so working out before work is not possible.)

There are times when I feel incredibly sleepy around 8PM, and I sometimes doze off with my clothes on, with the lights on, and wake up an hour later, and one thought I have is to maybe try making that my actual bedtime when that happens. I would love to be able to get 12 hours of sleep on those nights, but it never seems to happen.

I naturally get sleepy around 2:30 AM and have no problem drifting to sleep then, and I also feel very sleepy in the morning. On the weekends I usually get a few extra hours of sleep, but it’s still not enough and I feel permanently exhausted. I’m naturally a night owl, and have been since I was an infant.

My biggest bad habit for sleep is using my phone in bed. I start feeling upset about my situation at night and browsing the news, reading sports articles and wikipedia and Reddit seems to calm me down but it’s a huge waste. Yet I can’t seem to stop doing it. It’s like a crutch that I feel like I need.

Any tips to help improve my sleep situation?

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Originally Posted by LetsGo

One of the biggest things I need to fix is my sleep. It’s holding me back in many ways; I’m consistently getting about 5.5 hours of sleep each night, and I feel like a zombie. I’m sure it’s helping to keep my testosterone low as well.

I try going to bed at 10 PM, but I just lay there for a very long time, wide awake, and then eventually grab my phone and waste a bunch of time looking up wikipedia articles or news until I finally feel sleepy, and then I fall asleep instantly. The problem is that that’s 2:30 AM and I have to wake up around 8 AM.

I try the sleep herbs, and they make a marginal difference, nothing seems to make a big difference. This is only partly about PFS, I have plenty of time to get a full night of sleep every day, but my body just won’t cooperate. If I was fully rested I’d feel much better and get more done, and it would be easier to work out. It’s so much harder to work out when all I want to do is take a nap after work. (Forget about before work, I need every bit of sleep I can get, so working out before work is not possible.)

There are times when I feel incredibly sleepy around 8PM, and I sometimes doze off with my clothes on, with the lights on, and wake up an hour later, and one thought I have is to maybe try making that my actual bedtime when that happens. I would love to be able to get 12 hours of sleep on those nights, but it never seems to happen.

I naturally get sleepy around 2:30 AM and have no problem drifting to sleep then, and I also feel very sleepy in the morning. On the weekends I usually get a few extra hours of sleep, but it’s still not enough and I feel permanently exhausted. I’m naturally a night owl, and have been since I was an infant.

My biggest bad habit for sleep is using my phone in bed. I start feeling upset about my situation at night and browsing the news, reading sports articles and wikipedia and Reddit seems to calm me down but it’s a huge waste. Yet I can’t seem to stop doing it. It’s like a crutch that I feel like I need.

Any tips to help improve my sleep situation?

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How's your work-life like? It's possible that you're just stressed out at the moment. I've always struggled with sleep to be honest, and that always worsened when I was very stressed.

Maybe try resetting your sleep schedule, so stay up for a night, and go to bed the next day at 10PM, or earlier.

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Originally Posted by MungYarlon

How's your work-life like? It's possible that you're just stressed out at the moment. I've always struggled with sleep to be honest, and that always worsened when I was very stressed.

Maybe try resetting your sleep schedule, so stay up for a night, and go to bed the next day at 10PM, or earlier.

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I’m severely under-employed in a job that I don’t like at all. I’ve been at this job for 3.5 years and I feel like I’m wasting my life here. I’ve been out of grad school for 12 years and this has been my longest stretch of employment. I spent most of those years being severely abused by my father when I did not find a job straight out of school during the 2009 Great Recession and I believed him that I was a worthless piece of shit, as he regularly told me. So I don’t have the experience to easily get jobs in my field after being out of school so long and not having the right work experience.

My job is not even remotely stressful, except that I’m wasting my time here, but can’t find a job in my field after having little experience in it.

I started a law firm but it’s slow going. I have all the experience needed from doing literally the same work on a pro bono basis. I need for things to reach the point where I can support myself off of that instead. I would 100% kill myself if I did not believe I could escape this job. I need to get back to NYC again.

The idea of staying awake for an entire day is brutal. I have done that in the past and it didn’t work out well for me. I always end up falling asleep in the early afternoon the next day when I literally collapse (remember, I’m already sleep deprived) and then I wake up, fully rested, after midnight and my sleep schedule is even worse.

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Originally Posted by LetsGo

I’m severely under-employed in a job that I don’t like at all. I’ve been at this job for 3.5 years and I feel like I’m wasting my life here. I’ve been out of grad school for 12 years and this has been my longest stretch of employment. I spent most of those years being severely abused by my father when I did not find a job straight out of school during the 2009 Great Recession and I believed him that I was a worthless piece of shit, as he regularly told me. So I don’t have the experience to easily get jobs in my field after being out of school so long and not having the right work experience.

My job is not even remotely stressful, except that I’m wasting my time here, but can’t find a job in my field after having little experience in it.

I started a law firm but it’s slow going. I have all the experience needed from doing literally the same work on a pro bono basis. I need for things to reach the point where I can support myself off of that instead. I would 100% kill myself if I did not believe I could escape this job. I need to get back to NYC again.

The idea of staying awake for an entire day is brutal. I have done that in the past and it didn’t work out well for me. I always end up falling asleep in the early afternoon the next day when I literally collapse (remember, I’m already sleep deprived) and then I wake up, fully rested, after midnight and my sleep schedule is even worse.

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What type of law do you want to practice ideally? If it's not high-end corporate work, you should look to complete some paralegal work or become a summer associate (to catch up on any experience missed).

Regarding the issues with going to sleep, how is your caffeine intake? If it is quite high, then consider lowering it a bit, and don't take any stimulants after 2 pm.

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Originally Posted by MungYarlon

What type of law do you want to practice ideally? If it's not high-end corporate work, you should look to complete some paralegal work or become a summer associate (to catch up on any experience missed).

Regarding the issues with going to sleep, how is your caffeine intake? If it is quite high, then consider lowering it a bit, and don't take any stimulants after 2 pm.

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Are you a lawyer?

Summer associate positions are for law students. And paralegal work would not help - paralegals handle administrative tasks, not law practicing tasks.

I’m fully up to speed on my practice areas, and am already actively practicing in them, at a high level. I’m already up to speed so that’s not my issue.

Not really going to say what practice areas I’m in because then it gets incredibly easy to out myself.

My caffeine intake is zero. I am ultra-sensitive to caffeine and if I have one cup of coffee at 11 AM, I feel a strong buzz from it, but then I won’t feel sleepy until 3 or 4 AM. Because of that, I almost never have anything with caffeine.

The sleep thing sucks......one of my most hated symptoms simply because without proper sleep, I was useless the following day.

Besides running the protocol and being consistent, you have to really focus on breathing and mediation along with herbs to calm the mind.

Exercise REALLY sucks with no sleep, but by forcing yourself to do it, you'll eventually wear yourself out to the point where you'll sleep. I had to throw everything I had at the sleep issue.

That being said, like everything else, it will get better over time.

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Originally Posted by LetsGo

Are you a lawyer?

Summer associate positions are for law students. And paralegal work would not help - paralegals handle administrative tasks, not law practicing tasks.

I’m fully up to speed on my practice areas, and am already actively practicing in them, at a high level. I’m already up to speed so that’s not my issue.

Not really going to say what practice areas I’m in because then it gets incredibly easy to out myself.

My caffeine intake is zero. I am ultra-sensitive to caffeine and if I have one cup of coffee at 11 AM, I feel a strong buzz from it, but then I won’t feel sleepy until 3 or 4 AM. Because of that, I almost never have anything with caffeine.

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Things are different in the UK in that case. I've completed several equivalences to summer associate positions, so far, and they accept people irrespective of when they graduated, if they have even graduated yet. Moreover, the reason I brought up the paralegal stuff up is that I know plenty of friends who were first paralegals and then took on their legal training and became lawyers, thanks to the experience they gained.

I was mistaken with your current situation, however. I assumed that your current job was not related to the legal profession in anyway, and that you had taken a long hiatus from working as a lawyer since law school, and that you may instead have had to start again as a 1st yr associate. If you are confident in your abilities to head your own firm, and in your knowledge of the law, and if indeed you're operating in a very niche field (I say that because you mentioned that you would easily be compromised if you mention the practice) then all the best to you! Let me know how it goes of course, I'm keen to know how it will work out for you.

Anyway, enough waffling about law, I do remember you said a while ago that you were very sensitive to stimulants. I must admit to have forgotten that. Did this occur after PFS or was this an issue before as well? I happen to also be quite sensitive to stimulants. I'll take 100mg of caffeine at 1 or 2 PM and be hyper focused on work until 1 AM.

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Originally Posted by MungYarlon

Things are different in the UK in that case. I've completed several equivalences to summer associate positions, so far, and they accept people irrespective of when they graduated, if they have even graduated yet. Moreover, the reason I brought up the paralegal stuff up is that I know plenty of friends who were first paralegals and then took on their legal training and became lawyers, thanks to the experience they gained.

I was mistaken with your current situation, however. I assumed that your current job was not related to the legal profession in anyway, and that you had taken a long hiatus from working as a lawyer since law school, and that you may instead have had to start again as a 1st yr associate. If you are confident in your abilities to head your own firm, and in your knowledge of the law, and if indeed you're operating in a very niche field (I say that because you mentioned that you would easily be compromised if you mention the practice) then all the best to you! Let me know how it goes of course, I'm keen to know how it will work out for you.

Anyway, enough waffling about law, I do remember you said a while ago that you were very sensitive to stimulants. I must admit to have forgotten that. Did this occur after PFS or was this an issue before as well? I happen to also be quite sensitive to stimulants. I'll take 100mg of caffeine at 1 or 2 PM and be hyper focused on work until 1 AM.

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Thanks, yeah I wish there were programs here that accepted any lawyer and gave them training like that. I had to fight and claw on my own.

I’m not interested in being an associate, truth be told. I don’t love the idea of working for someone else, and having them tell me what to do, when to do it, how to do it, and then they get 80% of the money I generate. I’d rather be the captain of my own ship.

I would take a good job if I could get it, but I don’t see why any law firm would hire me, ever. You could just take someone fresh out of school, or my age plus the normal 10 years of experience. Maybe that’s my father’s negativity talking, but I got nowhere applying for lawyer jobs once I was a few years out, so I don’t think I’m hirable as an attorney despite being abundantly qualified, having some years of experience, and lots of volunteer experience that sharpened my skills.

This is a topic that makes me pretty anxious. I have my plans that should work, and I know a bunch of people who did exactly what I’m doing, with less experience and nothing in the bank, and made it work. It’s a hustle for a year or two, but so is a new job. The difference is that I don’t need to convince anyone to hire me, and if I’m very slightly successful as a solo, I will clear +$300,000, versus a quarter of that at a law firm, with an eventual max of maybe $200k in 10 - 15 years. If you don’t have the entrepreneurial mindset then it makes sense to be an associate, but if you want to earn money then starting your own firm will earn you multiple times as much money.

My field isn’t an extreme niche, but I still don’t want to mention it because there are just a handful of lawyers practicing it in my area.

If you’re a non-lawyer, in the US, being a paralegal first can help you decide if you want to go to law school, because it gives you exposure to the law firm setting. But it’s not like training that helps you become a great lawyer, since you’re doing different work. If you’re a dental hygienist, you do the grunt work of scraping tartar and X-rays, but this doesn’t train them to become dentists. You don’t learn how to read X-rays, drill cavities, do root canals, etc. You’re just around people who are doing that and it can help you learn if you like it or hate it.

Similarly, at least in the US, a paralegal will be filing paperwork, greeting clients and getting them coffee, proofreading documents, making photocopies, printing out motions and putting them into folders, getting coffee and snacks for the lawyers, buying paper for the printer, dealing with paper jams, transcribing voice recordings into documents... none of that is going to build any skills for an attorney. That’s what paralegals do at all of the law firms I’ve worked at, anyhow. Maybe in the UK they are like junior lawyers and can get promoted to full lawyers, but here in the US they’re basically administrative assistants who specialize in the legal field.

I’m up to speed in my areas and success is strictly down to getting higher conversions off my ads, getting more organic SEO, etc. Also, not being able to take calls live during work hours is killing me. This is strictly an advertising issue, and working for a law firm will not help me become a better advertiser. I don’t have a marketing degree or love ads so I don’t want to work for a digital ad firm either. I just want to keep working on my ads, and website and keep improving things. I have several clients but I need to get to where I get one or two clients per week.

Anyway, I have tried the basic sleep tactics. I can say my awful habit is BSing on my phone. I’m so tired of being in this condition and only having flashes of pseudo-normalcy. But I have no one I can talk to and it gets so lonely especially at night, and the phone makes me feel like I’m not alone, it distracts me from everything - but it’s ruining my sleep. I’m addicted to my phone and it’s never more than an arm’s length away from me.

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Originally Posted by LetsGo

Thanks, yeah I wish there were programs here that accepted any lawyer and gave them training like that. I had to fight and claw on my own.

I’m not interested in being an associate, truth be told. I don’t love the idea of working for someone else, and having them tell me what to do, when to do it, how to do it, and then they get 80% of the money I generate. I’d rather be the captain of my own ship.

I would take a good job if I could get it, but I don’t see why any law firm would hire me, ever. You could just take someone fresh out of school, or my age plus the normal 10 years of experience. Maybe that’s my father’s negativity talking, but I got nowhere applying for lawyer jobs once I was a few years out, so I don’t think I’m hirable as an attorney despite being abundantly qualified, having some years of experience, and lots of volunteer experience that sharpened my skills.

This is a topic that makes me pretty anxious. I have my plans that should work, and I know a bunch of people who did exactly what I’m doing, with less experience and nothing in the bank, and made it work. It’s a hustle for a year or two, but so is a new job. The difference is that I don’t need to convince anyone to hire me, and if I’m very slightly successful as a solo, I will clear +$300,000, versus a quarter of that at a law firm, with an eventual max of maybe $200k in 10 - 15 years. If you don’t have the entrepreneurial mindset then it makes sense to be an associate, but if you want to earn money then starting your own firm will earn you multiple times as much money.

My field isn’t an extreme niche, but I still don’t want to mention it because there are just a handful of lawyers practicing it in my area.

If you’re a non-lawyer, in the US, being a paralegal first can help you decide if you want to go to law school, because it gives you exposure to the law firm setting. But it’s not like training that helps you become a great lawyer, since you’re doing different work. If you’re a dental hygienist, you do the grunt work of scraping tartar and X-rays, but this doesn’t train them to become dentists. You don’t learn how to read X-rays, drill cavities, do root canals, etc. You’re just around people who are doing that and it can help you learn if you like it or hate it.

Similarly, at least in the US, a paralegal will be filing paperwork, greeting clients and getting them coffee, proofreading documents, making photocopies, printing out motions and putting them into folders, getting coffee and snacks for the lawyers, buying paper for the printer, dealing with paper jams, transcribing voice recordings into documents... none of that is going to build any skills for an attorney. That’s what paralegals do at all of the law firms I’ve worked at, anyhow. Maybe in the UK they are like junior lawyers and can get promoted to full lawyers, but here in the US they’re basically administrative assistants who specialize in the legal field.

I’m up to speed in my areas and success is strictly down to getting higher conversions off my ads, getting more organic SEO, etc. Also, not being able to take calls live during work hours is killing me. This is strictly an advertising issue, and working for a law firm will not help me become a better advertiser. I don’t have a marketing degree or love ads so I don’t want to work for a digital ad firm either. I just want to keep working on my ads, and website and keep improving things. I have several clients but I need to get to where I get one or two clients per week.

Anyway, I have tried the basic sleep tactics. I can say my awful habit is BSing on my phone. I’m so tired of being in this condition and only having flashes of pseudo-normalcy. But I have no one I can talk to and it gets so lonely especially at night, and the phone makes me feel like I’m not alone, it distracts me from everything - but it’s ruining my sleep. I’m addicted to my phone and it’s never more than an arm’s length away from me.

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You need a digital cleanse brother.

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Originally Posted by Cdsnuts

You need a digital cleanse brother.

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I agree 100%. To start with, I’m banning my phone from my bedroom, and so far it’s making a difference.

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Originally Posted by LetsGo

I agree 100%. To start with, I’m banning my phone from my bedroom, and so far it’s making a difference.

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Makes you realize how much you grab for the damn thing without even thinking. I know it's not practical for everyone, but when I went off grid for a few months last summer, I didn't have my phone for two months.....I didn't miss it at all.