NDT (Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone) Versus Synthetic T3 and T4

So I have a question for everyone:

Why would a bodybuilder or anyone interested in increasing circulating thyroid hormones use levothyroxine and liothyronine versus NDT, Natural Dessicated Thyroid Hormone? My guess would be dosage as its much easier to measure the synthetic amounts but I would assume the benefits of the more "natural" hormone would outweigh the dosage advantage to the synthetics. It would take more work monitoring NDT dosage but I believe it should be much easier to come off and regain full Thyroid function much faster. Plus, you also get T2, T1, and calcitonin on NDT while on synthetics, production of these hormones stop all together which I can imagine being bad for the body.

Your opinions are appreciated

Natural Dessicated Thyroid is not quite standardised, basically dose of T4 and T4 varies a lot which makes it hard to dose, on top of that it has to much T3 to T4, so sometimes people combine NDT and T4.

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Originally Posted by Jelisej

Natural Dessicated Thyroid is not quite standardised, basically dose of T4 and T4 varies a lot which makes it hard to dose, on top of that it has to much T3 to T4, so sometimes people combine NDT and T4.

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I figured the dosage would probably pose the biggest issue.
You bring up another good point concerning T3 to T4. If you were looking to cut, wouldn't the thermogenics of the added T3 be beneficial? My concern would be possible upregulation of Reverse T3 if there's too much T3 action in the body.
Would you agree that Thyroid suppression isn't the same as HPTA suppression, in that one can normalize thyroid function by simply tappering on and off thyroid meds/suppliments?

Thanks!

I am strongly against use of synthetic thyroid hormones or NDT for any use other than medical, and it simply should not be used for weight loss, as it is not just the sides, it really does not work that well anyway.

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Originally Posted by Jelisej

I am strongly against use of synthetic thyroid hormones or NDT for any use other than medical, and it simply should not be used for weight loss, as it is not just the sides, it really does not work that well anyway.

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I'm not entirely certain of the mechanics but when you come off wouldn't you be pretty deficient and just end up fatty fat fat fat fat again in the time it takes the thyroid to restore it's own production?

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Originally Posted by entropy

I'm not entirely certain of the mechanics but when you come off wouldn't you be pretty deficient and just end up fatty fat fat fat fat again in the time it takes the thyroid to restore it's own production?

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Well, there are number of things that need to be taken in account:

1. Thyroid is part of almost every process in body, and is a a part of endocrine system as whole- it is not just thyroid function that gets derailed, TSH levels get affected by level of thyroid hormones in system (natural or synthetic) and TSH is a part of general hormone synthesys
and also not many people ralise that when TSH out of whack for a while increases mortality likelihood by couple hundred %,

Fat losing wise-if one is taking synthetic hormones, obviously brain is reacitng by reducing thyroid hormones production, which leads to status quo, unless one adds a lot of synthetic hormones which (mostly T3) which which then burns both fat and muscles, which in my opinion defeats its purpose
in reality of people with sluggish tyroid only few are overweight

Another scary possible side effect is
T3 increases SHBG levels, and sometimes SHBG stays elevated permanenetly for unknown reasons (some say it unlocks some gene), so that basically sends you straight to TRT (as you end up with very low free test which is one who does almost all action, so basically you end up being hypogonadal)

If one is using T3 only or insufficient T4 that has some implications on its own-
T4 is needed as brain need some t4 and also brain uses its own fT4 which needs to be obtain by converting T4 by brain itself, (not sure of full implications here)
hair needs fT4.... etc....

And there are other possible issues as well... So in my opinion its simply is not worth taking risk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jelisej

Well, there are number of things that need to be taken in account:

1. Thyroid is part of almost every process in body, and is a a part of endocrine system as whole- it is not just thyroid function that gets derailed, TSH levels get affected by level of thyroid hormones in system (natural or synthetic) and TSH is a part of general hormone synthesys
and also not many people ralise that when TSH out of whack for a while increases mortality likelihood by couple hundred %,

Fat losing wise-if one is taking synthetic hormones, obviously brain is reacitng by reducing thyroid hormones production, which leads to status quo, unless one adds a lot of synthetic hormones which (mostly T3) which which then burns both fat and muscles, which in my opinion defeats its purpose
in reality of people with sluggish tyroid only few are overweight

Another scary possible side effect is
T3 increases SHBG levels, and sometimes SHBG stays elevated permanenetly for unknown reasons (some say it unlocks some gene), so that basically sends you straight to TRT (as you end up with very low free test which is one who does almost all action, so basically you end up being hypogonadal)

If one is using T3 only or insufficient T4 that has some implications on its own-
T4 is needed as brain need some t4 and also brain uses its own fT4 which needs to be obtain by converting T4 by brain itself, (not sure of full implications here)
hair needs fT4.... etc....

And there are other possible issues as well... So in my opinion its simply is not worth taking risk.

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Its this kind of information that is so valuably held within this community! Thanks Jelisej

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jelisej

Well, there are number of things that need to be taken in account:

1. Thyroid is part of almost every process in body, and is a a part of endocrine system as whole- it is not just thyroid function that gets derailed, TSH levels get affected by level of thyroid hormones in system (natural or synthetic) and TSH is a part of general hormone synthesys
and also not many people ralise that when TSH out of whack for a while increases mortality likelihood by couple hundred %,

Fat losing wise-if one is taking synthetic hormones, obviously brain is reacitng by reducing thyroid hormones production, which leads to status quo, unless one adds a lot of synthetic hormones which (mostly T3) which which then burns both fat and muscles, which in my opinion defeats its purpose
in reality of people with sluggish tyroid only few are overweight

Another scary possible side effect is
T3 increases SHBG levels, and sometimes SHBG stays elevated permanenetly for unknown reasons (some say it unlocks some gene), so that basically sends you straight to TRT (as you end up with very low free test which is one who does almost all action, so basically you end up being hypogonadal)

If one is using T3 only or insufficient T4 that has some implications on its own-
T4 is needed as brain need some t4 and also brain uses its own fT4 which needs to be obtain by converting T4 by brain itself, (not sure of full implications here)
hair needs fT4.... etc....

And there are other possible issues as well... So in my opinion its simply is not worth taking risk.

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So my interest in Thyroid Hormones isn't so much for fat loss but to aid in total body recovery. I understand why bodybuilders wouldn't want to use either synthetic or natural hormones by your detailed explanation – awesome, thanks again.
I'm still waiting on my test results but I've got this suspicion that I'm hypothyroid. There are several indicators, such as generally lowered body temperature (cold hands/cold feet) and insomnia. I believe my thyroid was shut down as a stress response to body inflammation. A good deal of t4 apparently is converted to T3 in the gut. Leaky gut can be caused by low levels of T3 shutting down cellular activity and not rebuilding the intestinal linings quickly enough to plug up the holes. I'm currently taking bone broth and L-Glutamine to aid in the repair.
Another bit of evidence of some serious issues was my resting heart rate several months ago - it was at 38 beats per minute. Blood pressure was ok. This suggests a possible cardiac disease but I'm thinking its low levels of T3. Today, I have some good news in that my resting heart rate is around 48 which is cool as this was around what it was in college. I was extremely athletic then and approaching that level now, 12 years later.
I've heard small amounts, for instance between 6 - 12 mcgs of t3 and 24 - 48 mcg of t4 has no significant effect on TSH so one taking a supplemental amount of NDT will likely benefit. I'm thinking of Thyroid-Gold by Natural Thyroid Solutions. This product has no fillers (besides herbs/amino acids) and is said to have roughly the equivalent of 1.25 grains in their 150 mgs dosage - this can be found on StopthethyroidMadness.com. Additionally, it is an over the counter product, not needing prescription but I’ll still seek professional guidance. So total thyroid hormone would roughly equate to 11.25 mcgs of T3 and 47.5 mcgs of T4. With safety in mind and because the active thyroid amounts can vary in products like these, I can supplement by splitting that dose in half.
Now that you know the background and what my intended purpose - what do you think? I've reviewed the research on SHBG, but not much is said on the dosage amounts. Also, I noticed something interesting in the test results and that is - those with low thyroid prodcution, hypothyroidism, SHBG actually went down - am I understanding this correctly? But your right for those with normal production, SHBG went up.
I'll have a better idea once my test results come in.

Adding T3 will have an effect on thyroid production even in small amounts, within 1-2 weeks your T4 will be depleted,
adding thyroid medication and adjusting dosage in hypothyroid people is something that takes few months, closer to 6 months ( and I did assist quite few people in that area), doing so without extensive blood test is an fools errand
yes along insulin fT3 largely influences SHBG, now problem with medication is that smetimes it goes up and stays up (even if later fT3 goes down)
also if your thyroid hormones go up and your metabolic rate goes up everything else needs to follow including adrenal and testosterone production if it does not than it will cause more problems, so basically you need to test not just thyroid but adrenals, sex hormones and few others as well, not doing so is not wise and simply will not yield good results,
one thing you could learn from this forum is that all people who were succesful here in solving their problems here did a lot of tests, a lot, and almost all of them were also under endo/docs supervision; we do some tricks here but blood tests and professional advice is still most important,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jelisej

Adding T3 will have an effect on thyroid production even in small amounts, within 1-2 weeks your T4 will be depleted,
adding thyroid medication and adjusting dosage in hypothyroid people is something that takes few months, closer to 6 months ( and I did assist quite few people in that area), doing so without extensive blood test is an fools errand

one thing you could learn from this forum is that all people who were succesful here in solving their problems here did a lot of tests, a lot, and almost all of them were also under endo/docs supervision; we do some tricks here but blood tests and professional advice is still most important,

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I hear ya, I'll have my results hopefully Monday. I plan on taking tests every month to 2 months or so going forward to paint a picture.