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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by TubZy View Post
    Androsterone is very very mild in terms of suppression.

    4 andro can be more suppressive but in general they are not super suppressive.

    Androsterone mimics thyroid hormone and stimulates metabolic rate by increasing oxygen consumption. So it will have a "hyperthyroid" like effect to an extent.

    https://journals.physiology.org/doi/...Code=ajplegacy
    so it will increase my TSH if I run it?

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashed View Post
    so it will increase my TSH if I run it?
    Do some research.......

    What we are telling you is it's safe to run all around the board. It's not going to have a detrimental effect on you, as a matter of fact it will eventually bring out nothing but positives....eventually.

    Stop worrying about these numbers.....the protocol is the same regardless of any of them. You don't want to try and "spot fix." Rather just give your body what it needs to do what it needs to do.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TubZy View Post
    Sure - I'll give you my take and try to make it short.

    First off androsterone is a neurosteroid. We know for a fact that finasteride lowers androsterone levels in the body and brain. Androsterone is also a GABA-A agonist just like allopregnanolone is. This means that if the brain is under some sort of stress androsterone can act as a GABA-A helper to agonize or stimulate that receptor (allopregnanolone does the same). Allopregnanolone itself isn't that important it just happens to the neurosteroid that takes the biggest hit from fin but plenty of other hormones are negatively impacted as well. All of these GABA-A agonist were being inhibited with fin which causes the GABA-A receptor to upregulate along with androgen receptor in the brain to upregulate.

    What makes androsterone special though is it seems to replace a lot of the other key areas that finasteride negatively impacted - specifically in the brain and body. Androsterone increases the brain levels of androsterone, epiandrosterone, 5α-dihydrotestosterone, and androstandiol.

    So we know that finasteride blocked GABA, lowered DHT in the entire body including the brain, raises serum estrogen etc.

    Androsterone does the total opposite of what fin does in all areas meaning instead of blocking GABA you are agonizing it now (causing it to downregulate), instead of lowering DHT you are increasing it in the body and brain (causing the AR to downregulate), instead of raising estrogen you are lowering it etc. So whether its a receptor issue or something else you are pushing yourself in the right direction.

    To pinpoint exactly which area is the root cause I don't know but in laymans terms androsterone is the best to cover all areas that fin screwed up.

    References:


    Psychomotor and rewarding properties of the neurosteroids dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate and androsterone: effects on monoamine and steroid metabolism - PubMed
    Plasma androsterone/epiandrosterone sulfates as markers of 5 alpha-reductase activity: effect of finasteride in normal men - PubMed
    PayPerView: Effects of Subchronic Finasteride Treatment and Withdrawal on Neuroactive Steroid Levels and Their Receptors in the Male Rat Brain - Karger Publishers
    Ok that makes sense, so as well as boosting positive allosteric modulators of GABA, it sorts out hormones in the brain.

    I was also wondering what you thought of the theory that epigenetic changes were happening in PFS patients. Surely if that were the case, the androsterone wouldn't have much of an impact on androgen receptors, not would an increase in hormones?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MungYarlon View Post
    Ok that makes sense, so as well as boosting positive allosteric modulators of GABA, it sorts out hormones in the brain.

    I was also wondering what you thought of the theory that epigenetic changes were happening in PFS patients. Surely if that were the case, the androsterone wouldn't have much of an impact on androgen receptors, not would an increase in hormones?
    Epigenetic changes can be manipulated by the environment they're in as well. Give the body the correct inputs and (environment) live a specific way (protocol) and these epigenetic changes will take place for the better.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

  5. #45
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 TubZy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MungYarlon View Post
    Ok that makes sense, so as well as boosting positive allosteric modulators of GABA, it sorts out hormones in the brain.

    I was also wondering what you thought of the theory that epigenetic changes were happening in PFS patients. Surely if that were the case, the androsterone wouldn't have much of an impact on androgen receptors, not would an increase in hormones?
    Haven't seen any conclusive evidence on it just some speculation around some epigenetic "markers" and PFS but the studies showed nothing conclusive. It was just speculation.

    I personally don't think any permanent epigenetic changes occur from finasteride since so many people have recovered and similar symptoms occur from other substances (saw palmetto, deca, minoxidil, accutane, SSRIs etc.)

    To CD's point as well, you can influence gene expression by your diet anyways. Fasting and eating certain foods can trigger certain gene expressions (i.e. broccoli).

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TubZy View Post
    Haven't seen any conclusive evidence on it just some speculation around some epigenetic "markers" and PFS but the studies showed nothing conclusive. It was just speculation.

    I personally don't think any permanent epigenetic changes occur from finasteride since so many people have recovered and similar symptoms occur from other substances (saw palmetto, deca, minoxidil, accutane, SSRIs etc.)

    To CD's point as well, you can influence gene expression by your diet anyways. Fasting and eating certain foods can trigger certain gene expressions (i.e. broccoli).
    Yeah I agree that they aren't going to be permanent, CRISPR and such could deal with those types of issues.

    I also wondered what you think my reason for having high Vitamin D3 is. I heard that many with PFS have extremely low D3, the reason being that the androgen signalling is broken, and yet mine bordered on being too high. Do you think its not really a question of androgens, but neurosteroids in my case, and what biomarkers could help me build a better picture from the hormone panel?

    Thanks again!

  7. #47
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    I'm asking all this because at the moment I'm starting to realise more and more that what I'm going through may not be PFS at all, but rather simply the stress of thinking I do indeed have PFS, so if there was any way of diagnosing, or at least give a good indicator of it, I'd like to know.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by MungYarlon View Post
    I'm asking all this because at the moment I'm starting to realise more and more that what I'm going through may not be PFS at all, but rather simply the stress of thinking I do indeed have PFS, so if there was any way of diagnosing, or at least give a good indicator of it, I'd like to know.
    Listen....you would know if you had pfs. It's not something that can be created in the mind. Certain anxious thoughts and maybe things that spring from normal anxiety could be effecting you, but they would not even come CLOSE to effecting you like pfs would.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

  9. #49
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    Hey guys what’s up!
    First of all I want to tell you I’m doing good/great.. I recovered from PFS, still not 100% but many time have been very close to it.
    Said this, I still have 8 bottles of R Andro in the fridge... they’re there from 4 years...
    Do you think prohormones has an expired date? Cause I can not see any on the box, I only see the producing date and it seems to be 2016....
    Any tips to know if these bottles are still good?
    Thank you!

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by biatch View Post
    Hey guys what’s up!
    First of all I want to tell you I’m doing good/great.. I recovered from PFS, still not 100% but many time have been very close to it.
    Said this, I still have 8 bottles of R Andro in the fridge... they’re there from 4 years...
    Do you think prohormones has an expired date? Cause I can not see any on the box, I only see the producing date and it seems to be 2016....
    Any tips to know if these bottles are still good?
    Thank you!
    I would run it anyway. it's not going to hurt you. Worst case scenario, nothing happens. But I still think you'll get something out of it.

    When can we expect your recovery post? Come on man....GET ON IT! You're so close.

    You should be done with this shit by now. Did you take a little break?
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

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