Joe's Recovery Journal

[Mojo]

Any questions are great questions.

1, No. it will not cause any sort of physical dependency. It's no different than using the herbs or using creatine to boost DHT. Like CD recommends though, run it in cycles. I usually use it for a couple of weeks, drop it, then come back to it later. Sometimes I use it inconsistently as well, same as when you eat a variety of different foods through the course of a month. After all, Sorghum is just food. I started off boiling the grain in with a batch of brown rice as my source of carbs. But the extract will be more potent/effective.

2. Well, what we know is that methylation occurs at an epigenetic level on several genes within the P450 group. These are a string of genes that convert sex hormones to other hormones, starting from cholesterol. I've seen enough wide hormone panels of PFS guys to know that methylation is not exclusive to just SRD5A1 and 2 (that is the 5ar genes). It's much much wider. Everything in P450 can get messed up, since Fin and Dut are P450 substrates. So yes, the enzymes that make sex hormones across the board are "out of control", if you wanna out it that way.

My cholesterol skyrocketed this year. A few months after my fin usage I went from perfect levels to drastically high. I always assumed it was genetics, as it does run in the fam. Is it really far fetched to speculate that maybe not enough cholesterol is being transformed into other hormones, causing a surplus of cholesterol?

Lots of weird things happened with my blood values this year. My ferritin went from borderline high to 3 times the max range (could be hereditary or systemic inflammation), my thyroid went from normal to hypo to normal again. And now my kidneys are acting up.

Have a bio store next door and found some sorghum rice crackers. Bought a few packs and some grain to prepare myself. Tastes quite nice and its gluten free so its perfect for paleo and backloading.

I appreciate your drive to investigate and test, without descending into crazy theories. Hope you recover fully soon!

[Karlucchi]

I'm using grapefruit seed extract currently. It has DHB in there. Straight DHB costs a lot.

Amazon.com: BulkSupplements Grapefruit Seed Extract Powder (500 Grams): Health Personal Care

Seems like a good thing to mix in with the pine pollen as it would work synergistically.

[Brooks]

It definitely can inhibit type
Everyone is different. Me, personally, I ran cycles of just DHT prohormones before and didn't feel anything huge afterwards. This last cycle with the TRT, I was using bioidentical testosterone cream stacked with Andro Hard. The T cream was applied to the chest while the AH was applied to the genitalia. My chest and back started getting very oily and breaking out in acne like highly androgenic tissue normally should while the penile symptoms became somewhat worse. Erections after the cycle are more difficult now and the penis is even more soft and cold when flaccid whereas I had better functionality before. Next time, I'm going to try just straight T instead of stacking, just for experimentation purposes. I wanna see what happens.

Have you thought about using the cream full-time and transcrotal to get higher DHT conversion? It seems like you had a decent response to it. Usually people take a couple months to “dial in” on TRT. Have you thought about doing it indefinitely while doing the protocol along with some of the other supplements you found helpful?

[Cdsnuts]

Have you thought about using the cream full-time and transcrotal to get higher DHT conversion? It seems like you had a decent response to it. Usually people take a couple months to “dial in” on TRT. Have you thought about doing it indefinitely while doing the protocol along with some of the other supplements you found helpful?

Doing the protocol while using exogenous test defeats, for the most part, doing the protocol at all. One of the major reasons for doing this is to get your natural test production back online. That's not going to happen while doing TRT. If anything, it's going to hinder your progress, not push it along.

[Brooks]

Doing the protocol while using exogenous test defeats, for the most part, doing the protocol at all. One of the major reasons for doing this is to get your natural test production back online. That's not going to happen while doing TRT. If anything, it's going to hinder your progress, not push it along.

Cd I’m struggling to understand how being on bioidentical testosterone makes the protocol pretty much pointless. The protocol is a blueprint to optimize sleep, exercise, diet, stress management, gut health and soooo much more than just boosting test. As you point out - the protocol obviously has some sort of positive epigenetic impact on those recovering from PFS. So how does attacking your recovery from every angle (sleep, exercise, nutrition, gut, hormones, stress etc) become worthless once someone is getting their sex hormones in optimal ranges through testosterone?

Love and am incredibly appreciative of you CD! I just don’t understand why it would stop/hinder the protocol from working as long as you were doing everything else right and not expecting a silver bullet cure. Just using it as a tool in the tool-belt of recovery.

[Gomesgame]

What I would guess here is that the full protocol is based on an holistic approach, which pursues an optimal body function systemically working by itself, what you have to do in this protocol is just push for this systemical reset, and TRT gives you testoterone, which is a part of the protocol, indeed _____ but _____ in the end it halts the body balance by interfering with it exogenously (having it's complications as well) just like any medication that mess with endocrinal system and it's optimal function, and that is the very opposite from what the protocol means

Just a guess, though

[God]

Cd I’m struggling to understand how being on bioidentical testosterone makes the protocol pretty much pointless. The protocol is a blueprint to optimize sleep, exercise, diet, stress management, gut health and soooo much more than just boosting test. As you point out - the protocol obviously has some sort of positive epigenetic impact on those recovering from PFS. So how does attacking your recovery from every angle (sleep, exercise, nutrition, gut, hormones, stress etc) become worthless once someone is getting their sex hormones in optimal ranges through testosterone?

Love and am incredibly appreciative of you CD! I just don’t understand why it would stop/hinder the protocol from working as long as you were doing everything else right and not expecting a silver bullet cure. Just using it as a tool in the tool-belt of recovery.

ya, I'm kind of confused about that too. PFS isn't hypogonadism, so getting it "back online" isn't really the issue....?? Not sure why trt would ruin everything but I'm not the expert

[MungYarlon]

Well, a small fraction of guys are actually hypogonadal. I've seen enough labs of others to know for certain. The reason it happens in them is because of the rise in estrogens when 5ar type 2 is inhibited or methylated and no longer working. When this happens, testosterone starts preferring Aromatase conversion and estradiol rises, thus increasing all estrogens downstream of estradiol. Then the elevated estrogens get into the brain and signal the pituitary and hypothalamus to shutdown gonadatropin production which then shuts down testosterone production from the testes. It does happen.

I think the spookiness of TRT is because of two reasons.

1. If improperly used, it can permanently shutdown your natural testosterone production and even cause infertility. Essentially, you risk adding more problems to an existing problem.

2. Not everyone responds well to it while using it because you can feel a lot worse using it. Some have severe androgen receptor sensitivity while some are very deficient in brain Allopregnanolone. With the receptors, agonizing them further with more androgens is physically god awful. With the Allopregnanolone, it is made from progesterone which is made from pregnenolone and the brain's production of pregnenolone can be shutdown in many. Your brain is then "riding on fumes" of what little is passing through the blood brain barrier from serum and progesterone at serum is also produced from the testes. So, when you go on TRT, you obviously shut down your testes from producing testosterone but also progesterone. So the little progesterone your brain was getting is no longer there, thus causing further suppression of Allopregnanolone and GABA receptor signaling.

In short, they don't want you to feel way worse than you might or risk causing further issues.

Are you just tackling the sexual side effects now? Also, when are you planning on stopping your neurotransmitter-cocktail?

[Marduk]

Well, a small fraction of guys are actually hypogonadal. I've seen enough labs of others to know for certain. The reason it happens in them is because of the rise in estrogens when 5ar type 2 is inhibited or methylated and no longer working. When this happens, testosterone starts preferring Aromatase conversion and estradiol rises, thus increasing all estrogens downstream of estradiol. Then the elevated estrogens get into the brain and signal the pituitary and hypothalamus to shutdown gonadatropin production which then shuts down testosterone production from the testes. It does happen.

I think the spookiness of TRT is because of two reasons.

1. If improperly used, it can permanently shutdown your natural testosterone production and even cause infertility. Essentially, you risk adding more problems to an existing problem.

2. Not everyone responds well to it while using it because you can feel a lot worse using it. Some have severe androgen receptor sensitivity while some are very deficient in brain Allopregnanolone. With the receptors, agonizing them further with more androgens is physically god awful. With the Allopregnanolone, it is made from progesterone which is made from pregnenolone and the brain's production of pregnenolone can be shutdown in many. Your brain is then "riding on fumes" of what little is passing through the blood brain barrier from serum and progesterone at serum is also produced from the testes. So, when you go on TRT, you obviously shut down your testes from producing testosterone but also progesterone. So the little progesterone your brain was getting is no longer there, thus causing further suppression of Allopregnanolone and GABA receptor signaling.

In short, they don't want you to feel way worse than you might or risk causing further issues.

Makes sense, but the thing is, us the people who were on TRT before PFS had already shot down our pregnelnolone using TRT and were feeling pretty fucking awesome anyway (at least myself) so idk what the fuck changed after using the devil’s drug.

[Cdsnuts]

Cd I’m struggling to understand how being on bioidentical testosterone makes the protocol pretty much pointless. The protocol is a blueprint to optimize sleep, exercise, diet, stress management, gut health and soooo much more than just boosting test. As you point out - the protocol obviously has some sort of positive epigenetic impact on those recovering from PFS. So how does attacking your recovery from every angle (sleep, exercise, nutrition, gut, hormones, stress etc) become worthless once someone is getting their sex hormones in optimal ranges through testosterone?

Love and am incredibly appreciative of you CD! I just don’t understand why it would stop/hinder the protocol from working as long as you were doing everything else right and not expecting a silver bullet cure. Just using it as a tool in the tool-belt of recovery.

Like I said, and as @Gomesgame mentioned, your body will not produce it's own Test if you're on TRT. One of the main pillars of this protocol. There are also other hormonal effects from the herbs that will be hindered by not letting the body produce it's own hormones.

To be a little clearer.....There will be certain strides made if you do this protocol while on TRT, no doubt. You will get in great shape, you will get a clearer mind, better functionality overall and many of the other benefits will come despite the TRT....but then what? We all know that even on TRT, pfs is still prevalent, so why suppress yourself even more? You're gonna have to come off the TRT eventually if you want to heal because I have not taked to one man in ten years who has ever recovered while running exogenous Test......not one.

This is a systemic approach. It pushes ALL the bodily systems to adjust to a proper baseline. It does this relatively simultaneously. So your brain will be healing, your muscles will be growing, your stress will be going down and your hormones will be recovering. Everything is connected in your system through one way or another. By holding one of these healing areas back, you're going to be dragging ALL the others areas as they try to move forward.

What ever gains you make on this protcol on TRT will be lost when you go to get off as your body is now going to have to get your endocrine system back up and running. it's easier on the system and quicker to fully heal when all the bodys functions are coming back online together. This is what I have noticed with everyone I work with over the past decade.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, a small fraction of guys are actually hypogonadal. I've seen enough labs of others to know for certain. The reason it happens in them is because of the rise in estrogens when 5ar type 2 is inhibited or methylated and no longer working. When this happens, testosterone starts preferring Aromatase conversion and estradiol rises, thus increasing all estrogens downstream of estradiol. Then the elevated estrogens get into the brain and signal the pituitary and hypothalamus to shutdown gonadatropin production which then shuts down testosterone production from the testes. It does happen.

I think the spookiness of TRT is because of two reasons.

1. If improperly used, it can permanently shutdown your natural testosterone production and even cause infertility. Essentially, you risk adding more problems to an existing problem.

2. Not everyone responds well to it while using it because you can feel a lot worse using it. Some have severe androgen receptor sensitivity while some are very deficient in brain Allopregnanolone. With the receptors, agonizing them further with more androgens is physically god awful. With the Allopregnanolone, it is made from progesterone which is made from pregnenolone and the brain's production of pregnenolone can be shutdown in many. Your brain is then "riding on fumes" of what little is passing through the blood brain barrier from serum and progesterone at serum is also produced from the testes. So, when you go on TRT, you obviously shut down your testes from producing testosterone but also progesterone. So the little progesterone your brain was getting is no longer there, thus causing further suppression of Allopregnanolone and GABA receptor signaling.

In short, they don't want you to feel way worse than you might or risk causing further issues.

Well said.