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  1. #191
    Moderator Feedback Score 0 Cdsnuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    27 as of January. Yah every time I indulge, I feel rough. Heart starts having murmurs, chest feels tight, and just feel rough everywhere. All that cholesterol and sugar. Makes me nauseated just thinking about it. Hopefully I can enjoy what remains of my 20s here soon. I missed out on a lot of it already.
    Well you're going to have a better time then me, that's for sure. I DID lose the last half of my 20's. You're gonna pull it out man.
    Total Male Optimization "People who say it can't be done shouldn't interrupt those that are doing it"

  2. #192
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 Hulk Smash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Well, a small fraction of guys are actually hypogonadal. I've seen enough labs of others to know for certain. The reason it happens in them is because of the rise in estrogens when 5ar type 2 is inhibited or methylated and no longer working. When this happens, testosterone starts preferring Aromatase conversion and estradiol rises, thus increasing all estrogens downstream of estradiol. Then the elevated estrogens get into the brain and signal the pituitary and hypothalamus to shutdown gonadatropin production which then shuts down testosterone production from the testes. It does happen.

    I think the spookiness of TRT is because of two reasons.

    1. If improperly used, it can permanently shutdown your natural testosterone production and even cause infertility. Essentially, you risk adding more problems to an existing problem.

    2. Not everyone responds well to it while using it because you can feel a lot worse using it. Some have severe androgen receptor sensitivity while some are very deficient in brain Allopregnanolone. With the receptors, agonizing them further with more androgens is physically god awful. With the Allopregnanolone, it is made from progesterone which is made from pregnenolone and the brain's production of pregnenolone can be shutdown in many. Your brain is then "riding on fumes" of what little is passing through the blood brain barrier from serum and progesterone at serum is also produced from the testes. So, when you go on TRT, you obviously shut down your testes from producing testosterone but also progesterone. So the little progesterone your brain was getting is no longer there, thus causing further suppression of Allopregnanolone and GABA receptor signaling.

    In short, they don't want you to feel way worse than you might or risk causing further issues.
    Are there clear indicators of hypogonadism without getting labs?

  3. #193
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 Hulk Smash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    The biggest one would be shrunken testes. All of the other symptoms are hard to differentiate between PFS and low T (low libido, loss of muscle mass, reduced body hair, dry skin, depression, etc.).
    How shrunken is shrunken? Lol
    My size seems to fluctuate.
    Also, I've seen guys mention shrunken but grow in size when recovering?

  4. #194
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 Hulk Smash's Avatar
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    Thanks for the panel link.

    I'm gonna hold off on panels until maybe a year. I dont want any undesirable news throwing off my momentum and mental strides.

    My strength has greatly improved within about 3 months.

    I'm back at pre-crash strength and in some ways even stronger. Muscle is easy to gain and maintain.

    Pre-crash strength and potential was high, I was naturally lean, wide skeletal frame, toned muscle, etc.
    I'm hoping its a sign things are back online for me..

    Achieved with mainly cycling Tongat, PP, Cistanche and anti-stress herbs along with rest of TMO. Not sure if thats a sign my boys are working or not though because I'm not certain of the boosting method of these herbs...thoughts?

    Could it be that adding DHT would help my boys to function better, get bigger?

    Also, is it possible testes aren't permanently shut down for some guys and its more of a thyroid/stress blockage of function?

    Thanks for all the info here btw, very helpful.

    I'll move any further discussion to my thread; to not clutter yours.

  5. #195
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 Hulk Smash's Avatar
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    @JoeP26

    Thanks for the insight.
    I still have more to improve on thyroid and DHT. I'm hoping for the best.

  6. #196
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    Hows your sleep?
    Did you try other methods to boost GH?

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Sleep is perfectly fine. No issues there. I get to sleep easily and wake up 6-8 hours later fully rested and not feeling tired. Also, yah. I had tried various natural aminos and they never really worked. MK has been the only thing to actually work.
    I read E and prolactin interfere with IGF and probably GH. Hopefully keeping those at healthy levels (consistently) will turn GH/IGF back on?

    If not, then I'll try MK.

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Perhaps. But the problem in PFS of low IGF-1 and GH is the GABAA postice modulating neurosteroids in the brain, like Androsterone and Allopregnanolone. They stimulate GAD (short for Glutamic Acid Decarboxylase) which is a reducing agent that converts Glutamate (an excitatory neurotransmitter) into GABA (a sedative neurotransmitter). GABA was found in a study to potently stimulate GH secretion from the pituitary when administered to a control group. On average, it raised GH levels by ~400%. And we know in PFS that individuals have low to undetectable levels of Allopregnanolone in CSF. This in turn would cause low GABA levels as well then low GH and low IGF-1, since GH stimulates IGF-1 production in the liver. This pattern is actually used by some doctors in treating PFS nowadays. And even generalized TBI.

    I should also add that several in this forum and the WhatsApp group had neurotransmitters tested, including myself, through ZRT. All of us had severely low GABA.
    Overtime won’t GABA increase Naturally with healthy Diet and Lifestyle, and slowly increasing Testosterone?

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Not without progestogen metabolites/neurosteroids. They are the only things that stimulate GAD to produce GABA. And testosterone doesn't contribute to GABA production. Androgens binding to Androgen Receptors is what stimulates Dopamine production. But not GABA. Healthy is always great though for general health regardless.
    Just expressing some radical candor here but folks who have stayed true and focused to the protocol have recovered at a much faster rate than yourself. It’s great you’ve taken a liking to some of the science but I’d be careful with your phasing because it could dissuade someone from diving into TMO.

    We got a recovery board here filled with guys that didn’t take progesterone metabolites in order to recover.

    Breaking the science and theories down can be interesting for some, but results are results man, and there’s a simple consistent theme with the recovered here. Plain and simple.

  10. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks View Post
    Just expressing some radical candor here but folks who have stayed true and focused to the protocol have recovered at a much faster rate than yourself. It’s great you’ve taken a liking to some of the science but I’d be careful with your phasing because it could dissuade someone from diving into TMO.

    We got a recovery board here filled with guys that didn’t take progesterone metabolites in order to recover.

    Breaking the science and theories down can be interesting for some, but results are results man, and there’s a simple consistent theme with the recovered here. Plain and simple.
    I agree with what you’re saying to an extent, but it’s always nice to have more options at your disposal if progress is made. Joe is a pretty smart guy, and he doesn’t try and persuade people into following him. Right now we know how to cure pfs in a long, hard road, if he finds something quicker, all the power to him.

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