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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    I can already tell you why it works. The underlying issue is methylation on thousands of genes in DNA. We just had a study released this week that was 8 years in the making. They examined 26 different PFS guys and took penile tissue samples. In the samples, they surveyed a plethora of genes and found over 3,000 had been methylated. Methylation on genes causes either overexpression or underexpression of various enzymes, receptors, and chemicals. In short, a shitload of things got altered. I'll link to it below.

    Differential Gene Expression in Post-Finasteride Syndrome Patients

    The protocol calls for long water fasts, which puts your body into ketosis. That's when the adrenals pump out an excess amount of ketones from caloric deficits, which are endogenous butyrates that act as HDAC inhibitors and they demethylate genes when in circulation. So, water fasting is actually reversing all of this methylation slowly overtime. Thing is, you don't need to water fast to get these in your system. They have butyrates OTC, like sodium butyrate, BHB, and Tributyrin, that you can take daily. Additionally, you then use certain things in the protocol that stimulate hormones and neurotransmitters, which also help to influence gene expression, while not water fasting. Eventually, the switches are flipped, gene expression is restored, and you feel better again.

    Sadly, if you have primary hypogonadism and are on TRT, you have a very rough road ahead in recovery. I never recommend standalone TRT for PFS. There is absolutely no way to fix testes that have been damaged due to steroid usage. The testes are responsible for producing most of the testosterone that circulates through body. But they also produce a modest amount of progesterone. When you use TRT, you obviously suppress the testes and are only supplementing the androgens but not the progestogens. If you absolutely have to use TRT because your testes are permanently damaged, then you would need to use a small amount of progesterone with the TRT to get Allopregnanolone downstream. Something like 10-25mg of progesterone cream once daily before bed.

    If your testes aren't permanently damaged, then you need to get off of it and get your LH and FSH back up, which will also get progesterone back up. Typically, doctors will give you clomid for that and some HCG to wake the boys up after being suppressed for so long.
    Aren't all the overexpressed and underexpressed genes simply that way because of the faulty androgen receptor though, and don't function as well because of weak androgen signaling.

    If we could fix the AR straight away, wouldn't that in large solve the problem.

  2. #212
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 Maxout777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    I hear that but I haven't personally experienced it and I'm skeptical of what those couple of people were doing on the side that they may be withholding. You're referring to the two guys on PH and I just don't view that place as a credible source for information because they claim that about everything.

    I'm not considering GH peptides. I'm already on MK-677 and have been for the past couple of months. My GH and IGF-1 were both bottomed out and I had tried everything naturally I possibly could to get those up but nothing worked. MK worked like a charm. Also, I am running R-Andro right now. I dropped progesterone and switched to it.
    I was referring to Hulk quoted there, not questioning you - I trust you've done your research and have based approaches off copious labs. As you said, you're informed. And I agree, people aren't on PH. I also know people personally (or as personal as you can through a forum PM, of course) that I worked with on Hack Stasis that had bad results with butyrates. Not to the probably over-exaggerated point of the PH topics you referenced (that one topic is pretty.....eh I won't touch that), but nothing pleasant.

    Either way, didn't notice at the time this was your log when replying to Hulk lol - so I apologize for jumping in there.
    There ain't no traffic along the extra mile.

    Never Quit.

  3. #213
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 Hulk Smash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxout777 View Post
    I was referring to Hulk quoted there, not questioning you - I trust you've done your research and have based approaches off copious labs. As you said, you're informed. And I agree, people aren't on PH. I also know people personally (or as personal as you can through a forum PM, of course) that I worked with on Hack Stasis that had bad results with butyrates. Not to the probably over-exaggerated point of the PH topics you referenced (that one topic is pretty.....eh I won't touch that), but nothing pleasant.

    Either way, didn't notice at the time this was your log when replying to Hulk lol - so I apologize for jumping in there.
    @JoeP26
    Thanks for the info. You did your research 👍🏻
    Could come in handy should I need it.

    @Maxout777
    I'm gonna try the PH soon and will continue to stick with the rest of protocol.
    My hope is everything will recover in full with no need for extra things.
    I go back and forth with a few ideas but its more for learning right now.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
    I agree with turnover25, the protocol works and everyone knows that, but it would be even better if we focus on why it is working anf try to enhance the process which will probably lead to faster recoveries, at least it makes sense

    Also joe i wanted to ask for your advice if someone like me whom was already on TRT before using Finastride and got PFS can actually get allopregnanolone and progesterone metabolites high enough to recover?

    I jumped on TRT because my testosterone was already pretty low before Finastride, and it’s been over two years on TRT without using hcg son I don’t think it’s even possible for me to kickstart my natural production at this poin anymore, and when i hear people say you need to raise your natural hormone stream to recover makes me feel like im a lost case if I might say.
    I would just assume that you can reverse the damage to your testes, since you have to try. It may take several additional years (on top of normal PFS recovery timeline) to slowly build them back up.

    I’m not an expert on this, I’m just saying you should be willing to try to tackle this for 5 - 10 years if that’s what it takes. (I hope it only takes you several months, or a year.) Don’t just give up.

  5. #215
    SwoleSource Member Feedback Score 0 GoldenSun's Avatar
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    Dang. Reading this is getting me worried. I got on TRT to try to fix my symptoms and have been on for a little bit now. I hope this doesn't mean I'm screwed (I'm getting off with HCG next week)

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Naw man. Trust me, the medical field has tried every which way for decades to fix primary hypogonadism and have done numerous studies on it. Men who blast roids for lengthy periods of time and suppress their testes, that later get primary hypogonadism, do not recover from it. There's nothing that can be done except TRT. That's why this forum isn't a fan of it and why standalone TRT should never be used in PFS. You run the risk of more unnecessary damage.
    Based on your TRT statement above, that would mean that the thousands of people on TRT would be experiencing symptoms of low progesterone and/or allo. How do you explain the no change in progesterone levels in the thousands upon thousands of TRT blood labs folks run?

    Also, I heard you have a preference towards R-Andor cream. Do you mind sharing why over UH and which product you’re using? Haven’t seen a cream option?

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Naw man. Trust me, the medical field has tried every which way for decades to fix primary hypogonadism and have done numerous studies on it. Men who blast roids for lengthy periods of time and suppress their testes, that later get primary hypogonadism, do not recover from it. There's nothing that can be done except TRT. That's why this forum isn't a fan of it and why standalone TRT should never be used in PFS. You run the risk of more unnecessary damage.
    Prohormones won’t cause hypogonadism the way roids would, right? They’ve been crucial in my recovery, and IMO necessary, but I wonder about later on in life.

    To all the guys on the forum, please don’t crucify me, it’s just a question lol

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Naw man. Trust me, the medical field has tried every which way for decades to fix primary hypogonadism and have done numerous studies on it. Men who blast roids for lengthy periods of time and suppress their testes, that later get primary hypogonadism, do not recover from it. There's nothing that can be done except TRT. That's why this forum isn't a fan of it and why standalone TRT should never be used in PFS. You run the risk of more unnecessary damage.
    Ah, okay. I personally never used TRT, and I’m not an expert on it.

    Modern medicine can’t cure PFS, but the protocol can, so I figured it would be worth attempting to cure post steroid dysfunction with the protocol as well. Lots of guys with PFS had massively shrunken balls, which is supposedly permanent, yet they recovered from that in the protocol.

    I would still urge someone in that situation to at least try the protocol rather than just give up. If there are a bunch of guys in that situation who tried the PFS protocol for years and made no progress, then that really sucks. I have no idea if they have or haven’t tried, though. I remember CD saying that if you used TRT for awhile it would take years longer to recover, but I have no idea whether he or you is right about whether it’s reversible.

    I do agree that PFS guys should avoid TRT.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    Do you have evidence their progesterone levels are unchanged? As everything I've seen and read states the opposite. TRT suppresses the testes, which produces large amounts of testosterone and a modest amount of progesterone. We have a guy in our WhatsApp group who was put on TRT for PFS and his progesterone levels plummeted, predictably, so I have seen this firsthand.

    R-Andro is pure Androsterone. Androsterone is similar to Allopregnanolone in that it is a neurosteroid that positively modulates GABAA receptors and potentiates GABA's action on GABAA. It is also a weak androgen with about 10th the strength on androgen receptors as Testosterone and 100th the strength as DHT. But it also converts eventually into DHT through a back door pathway utilizing the 17 alpha and 3 alpha HSD enzymes. Ultra Hard and Andro Hard are a blend of Androsterone and EpiAndrosteron. EpiAndrosterone is the polar opposite cousin to Androsterone. It antagonizes and blocks GABAA receptors, which is a big mistake in PFS since GABAA receptors have already been severely deprived of agonistic actions due to lack of neurosteroids, like Allopregnanolone. You would just cause further upregulation.
    Yeah, the evidence I’ve seen is on this TRT Facebook group I’m a member of ran by medical professionals with 9k members. This exact scenario and question has come up a few times and the labs and symptoms just don’t show it to be true. My dad is on TRT and his progesterone is fine. I’m not sure what’s going on with the WhatsApp guy. I mean, it’d be fair to say that plummeting ones progesterone or allo would kill the point of TRT and the hundred million dollar industry that it is haha.

    Appreciate the explanation on R-Andro. I’ve only done UH with no negatives other than some insomnia so it sounds like I might need to try R-Andro for my next cycle. Is this the cream everyone is talking about: https://www.ironmaglabs.com/product/...r-andro-cream/

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeP26 View Post
    I'm wondering if they aren't just being smart and using a small amount of HCG with their TRT, which is quite common in the body building world to prevent testicular atrophy. If they are, then that would be why their progesterone is fine. Also, keep in mind that male progesterone reference ranges are highly inaccurate and unreliable, as labs never put emphasis or care on them because of the stigma that progesterone is a "female only hormone." They typically measure .2ng/mL or less to undetectable as "normal" and that's just a joke. Men can go all the way up to 1ng/mL safely but many labs just don't do the smart thing and revise it. Too many variables. I just go where the science leads me. The suppression of Allo on TRT btw is what causes "roid rage." Ask yourself if men with roid rage are calm, collected, rational, and sleep well. Now ask yourself if women on their period (when their progesterone levels plummet) are calm, collected, rational, and sleep well. Same problem. Different causes.

    Sure thing. Also, yes that's the cream but @Cdsnuts wants us to get it at the link below and use his promo code: cdsnuts

    Super R Andro Topical Cream by Iron Mag Labs (DHT) - GymNTonic.com
    Some are on HCG but most aren't. Yes, most docs are idiots relying on modern-day ranges, fortunately these guys know their shit and are looking at male optimization levels. Plummeting progesterone would cause serious alarm, plus nasty symptoms.

    Ah, somehow missed this link, thank you! Stoked to try this later next month!

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