Clomid study discussion

[Jelisej]

The study was done on older men with no apparent past use of anabolics.

Also, I have a feeling that giving DHT to men with failing testicular function can actually boost testosterone levels, or at least maintain the same testosterone levels (in the low range) but increase sense of well being, libido, etc.

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I don't understand what "side-effects of failures" means. Do you mean like, if someone doesn't recover testicular function after a cycle?

Mistyped- I meant "on failures" (to restart or recover). As for DHT it usualy does increase feeling of wellbeing, and for people with low tt its not always too supressive- but for majority is. And for many guys testosterone levels took dive after supplementing DHT.
If LH levels are not supressed it does not meant that testosterone levels were not reduced. Few guys after couple of months on Testosterone injections still had serum LH present in their blood tests.
"end of the line" hormones are always very supressive.

[burlyman30]

Mistyped- I meant "on failures" (to restart or recover). As for DHT it usualy does increase feeling of wellbeing, and for people with low tt its not always too supressive- but for majority is. And for many guys testosterone levels took dive after supplementing DHT.

Bolded is in conflict with the studies on Proviron I posted in the Proviron and Androgens section.

[Jelisej]

Bolded is in conflict with the studies on Proviron I posted in the Proviron and Androgens section.

Yes, that is because that study is incomplete. It includes only specific group of people, dosages were probably very low.
There is another proviron study in which shows there was supression- but there they used higher dosages, that study was probably incomplete as well. Anyway- from anecdotal evidences first SHBG and then testosterone levels were reduced after supplementing with DHT.

[h2s]

Yes, that is because that study is incomplete. It includes only specific group of people, dosages were probably very low.
There is another proviron study in which shows there was supression- but there they used higher dosages, that study was probably incomplete as well. Anyway- from anecdotal evidences first SHBG and then testosterone levels were reduced after supplementing with DHT.

But see, that is the point of this system. You could then introduce the study you reference in this post to the database, depicting the opposite scenario and use that in your discussion in the advanced enhance subforum.

[burlyman30]

Yes, that is because that study is incomplete. It includes only specific group of people, dosages were probably very low.
There is another proviron study in which shows there was supression- but there they used higher dosages, that study was probably incomplete as well. Anyway- from anecdotal evidences first SHBG and then testosterone levels were reduced after supplementing with DHT.

150mg was used in both of the studies I posted. I'd say that is substantial. Both of those studies supported the finding of the other. I'd be interested to read the study you are referencing.

[Jelisej]

150mg was used in both of the studies I posted. I'd say that is substantial. Both of those studies supported the finding of the other. I'd be interested to read the study you are referencing.

This is from Michael Scally's article:
The quoted abstract from the study by Varma and Patel really does not give one any information. [Varma TR, Patel RH. The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone , luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men. Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1988;26:121-8.] The study is poor from the abstract alone. Please note that the statement, "Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated," refers unidentified group. The groups in the study include, "One hundred ten patients . . . had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients . . . had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone." Nowhere is there a group with elevated levels. Nonetheless, the cited effect is a "depressing effect" not stated as significant. Knowing the fluctuation in gonadotropin levels on testing even at a P<0.05 would not be meaningful. But it does go to the point that proviron has no adverse effect on the HPTA.

This is from Bayer product information: Early studies suggested oral
mesterolone did not usually suppress gonadotrophins or endogenous
testosterone production. A later single dose study suggests there may be a
central suppression effect at doses of 75-100 mg daily.
http://www.bayerresources.com.au/res...I/file9420.pdf


Cannot find other "sources" but there were studies showing testosterone supression during proviron usage, altough I do accept that proviron is not harsh on HPTA and it recovers in "no time".
Also there are some anecdotal reports on proviron reducing testosterone, but I have no concrete evidence, I must say.
This is best I can do at the moment:
Testosterone levels and gonadotrophins in ... [Arch Dermatol Res. 1977] - PubMed - NCBI
The hormone response to a synthetic an... [Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1977] - PubMed - NCBI
As from positive side proviron does reduce SHBG which leaves more free testosterone- and that is where benefits are coming from (including increased fertility in some people).