Saw Palmetto and Fenugreek...im in trouble!

[Lookingforhelp]

Hey man , Your experiences with natural 5AR inhibitors are very similar to mine.

It is BS that fenugreek is used for boosting natty T. Not that it can't boost natty T but it's misleading as far as the mechanism of action behind why and how it's boosting T that's BS. 5AR inhibitors usually will raise your T at first but while risking completely messing up your endocrine system for the long run.

I completely agree with your conclusions with everything you said about Saw P. I'm one of the guys that fall in the 5 percent category of having been royally messed up by taking Saw P.

How you got messed up from taking Saw P for 21 days and later even more messed up from your four months of fenugreek usage almost mirrors my mistakes as well. Actually during my first Saw P mishap I actually took it for 21 days exactly and was "PFS'd". Than about three years later after still being messed up and after having a urologist tell me that all my symptoms where in result of having an enlarged prostate I did another two week run of Saw P. to "shrink my prostate". Stupid I know ... After my second run of Saw P came the insomnia and severe stomach issues. After coming off the Saw P the second time I stayed up for two weeks straight .. Not one min of sleep for two weeks. My insomnia was so bad that hard core sleep meds would not put me out. I actually thought I was going to die blah blah blah ...

Following the "PFS" protocol for the last two years has cured 80 percent of my insomnia . Eating a close to strict paleo diet for the last two years has helped my digestive issues a lot as well. Not sure if you are having issues with digestion but the magnesium supp is great for this. I constantly find that the more of this protocol I follow the better quality of life I see returning.

As for us worrying about deciding if to stop taking everything once fully recovered, that's the least of our concerns. The way I look at it why not continue to take vitamins and increase our T to natural health levels even after being completely recovered. But that's a bridge to cross once we their.

I had a lot of digestive issues. I still believe it triggered my celiacs disease. I eat gluten free with lots of animal fats. Nothing processed. All clean! I think my insomnia was down to my chronic gut inflammation all the time. My sleep is great now, in fact I feel like I could sleep all day. Which is the problem! Even when I beat this, I'll still carry on with this way of life. I've learnt too much and I would be a fool to ever consider going back to my old ways.

Anyway, some news.

I saw my endocrinologist. Initially when this all happened I had Lowish dht. My DHt is near the top of the range now. I don't suffer with any other sides other than constant fatigue and ed. I get morning and nocturnals most nights, not as hard as they should be though. No spontaneous. Libido is sort of there k it's crushed by the little happening down there.

I've found out that my test and free test is low. Also my e2 is 6. Optimal for men between 20-30. He wants me to start testosterone gel next week. I'm a little concerned about starting hormones and shutting my own hormones down. I know there is lots of stuff on the web written about hormone replacement but I feel like for us it's all a different story. We aren't like every one else.

Will being on the gel shut my body down? Is it a backwards step? Or will it nudge me in the right direction?. I know some including cd have cycled dht based stuff, but will this have The same effect?

[5 alpha victim]

Lookingforhelp, How low is your total testosterone and free T?

I would deff try the rotating at least seven different "natty T boosters" before you try any type of TRT including the gel. Of course just like they say around here all the time your diet and training needs to be onpoint as well while doing the herb rotation. I'm not cured but I know enough about what I'm doing now through experience and trial and error to know that TRT is just not the way to go with us.

You can use the gel in which case unless you swim in it (which you most likely won't be able to do with any doctor prescribed dose) you probable won't see higher blood testosterone levels than you will get on rotating natty T boosters, eating healthy and working out. If you get your doctor to give you injections (which you probably won't be able to do) than yea you can jack your T up to the top of the range which will probable make your symptoms worse. With us doing anything that's not a small nudge usually makes us worse. So TRT is just an all around bad idea in my opnion for people that have been "PFS'd". If I was you the only way I would try the gel is if after a year of following this protocol your T is stil in the complete shitter. The last time I checked mine was in the mid 500's which is not that bad for a 31 year old and considering the gel could not get me any higher even at max prescription dosage.

I'd much rather produce the same levels naturally than what the gel got me at and I I'm sure you would as well . As far as the DHT goes, I don't waste my time rubbing labs on it simply because it can't accurately be measured in my opnion. I see improvements in my symptoms on DHT based pro hormones as well.

[Lookingforhelp]

Lookingforhelp, How low is your total testosterone and free T?

I would deff try the rotating at least seven different "natty T boosters" before you try any type of TRT including the gel. Of course just like they say around here all the time your diet and training needs to be onpoint as well while doing the herb rotation. I'm not cured but I know enough about what I'm doing now through experience and trial and error to know that TRT is just not the way to go with us.

You can use the gel in which case unless you swim in it (which you most likely won't be able to do with any doctor prescribed dose) you probable won't see higher blood testosterone levels than you will get on rotating natty T boosters, eating healthy and working out. If you get your doctor to give you injections (which you probably won't be able to do) than yea you can jack your T up to the top of the range which will probable make your symptoms worse. With us doing anything that's not a small nudge usually makes us worse. So TRT is just an all around bad idea in my opnion for people that have been "PFS'd". If I was you the only way I would try the gel is if after a year of following this protocol your T is stil in the complete shitter. The last time I checked mine was in the mid 500's which is not that bad for a 31 year old and considering the gel could not get me any higher even at max prescription dosage.



I'd much rather produce the same levels naturally than what the gel got me at and I I'm sure you would as well . As far as the DHT goes, I don't waste my time rubbing labs on it simply because it can't accurately be measured in my opnion. I see improvements in my symptoms on DHT based pro hormones as well.

Hi 5alpha,

Thanks for your reply. My Testosterone has been okay up until the last few months where it has tanked. I've been suffering with mild hyperprolactin which seems to be fluctuating. It's lower since I started gluten free. I am also celiacs.
My free t has been low for some time now. DHT was low but has now come back online. I've had ,many tests, all the 3 adiol g etc. Mine was a high level which was promising. I'm still very hairy, growing more body hair all the time, still receding slightly.

My issues now from what I believe is low free t and low e2. My joints and hips are cracking and popping like crazy and feel generally lethargic. I also have this ache and pains in my calves a lot. I think I'm getting better in many aspects as now my sleep is amazing. I feel like I could sleep all day, which isn't great, but it beats insomnia! My cold hands and feet are gone, this got better since starting gluten free diet. I don't really have brain fog now I've been gluten free. Just more slow thoughts but I think this is from low t e2.
Since having low e2 my lean muscle is softer. I'm already lean and 6ft3. Never been fat.

I'm getting nocturnal and morning wood although it's not rock solid but I'd say 80%.

I'm adamant I can get out of this, I don't think I'm in the shithouse as much as some! I'm not comfortable win trt really but I'm at the stage now where I need to try and get back to work and normal life. I've read many people saying it makes them worse. The whole herb thing is something I want to try. I've read reports of pine pollen being an alpha reductase inhibitor though. Just scares the shit out of me since it's possibly saw palmetto that fucked me.

By the way did you take propecia or saw palmetto?

[5 alpha victim]

Hi 5alpha,

Thanks for your reply. My Testosterone has been okay up until the last few months where it has tanked. I've been suffering with mild hyperprolactin which seems to be fluctuating. It's lower since I started gluten free. I am also celiacs.
My free t has been low for some time now. DHT was low but has now come back online. I've had ,many tests, all the 3 adiol g etc. Mine was a high level which was promising. I'm still very hairy, growing more body hair all the time, still receding slightly.

My issues now from what I believe is low free t and low e2. My joints and hips are cracking and popping like crazy and feel generally lethargic. I also have this ache and pains in my calves a lot. I think I'm getting better in many aspects as now my sleep is amazing. I feel like I could sleep all day, which isn't great, but it beats insomnia! My cold hands and feet are gone, this got better since starting gluten free diet. I don't really have brain fog now I've been gluten free. Just more slow thoughts but I think this is from low t e2.
Since having low e2 my lean muscle is softer. I'm already lean and 6ft3. Never been fat.

I'm getting nocturnal and morning wood although it's not rock solid but I'd say 80%.

I'm adamant I can get out of this, I don't think I'm in the shithouse as much as some! I'm not comfortable win trt really but I'm at the stage now where I need to try and get back to work and normal life. I've read many people saying it makes them worse. The whole herb thing is something I want to try. I've read reports of pine pollen being an alpha reductase inhibitor though. Just scares the shit out of me since it's possibly saw palmetto that fucked me.

By the way did you take propecia or saw palmetto?

If you have celiacs disease than your digestive issues go beyond mine. How is that diagnosed anyway , with a lower endoscopy I'm assuming ? My digestive issues consisted of severe constipation that started after my second round of Saw P. When I say severe I mean I had a barium swallow Cat scan done that showed severe constipation. It took almost two years of eating a mostly paleo only diet to see improvments. If I get off of my diet than the problem returns really fast.

To answere your question I took Avodart (duel 5 alpha reductase inhibitor) when I was twenty two years old and had no problems what so ever.

I took my first round of Saw P when I was twenty six and got messed up. I took my second round of Saw P when I was twenty nine and got even more messed up lol

I'm thirty one and I am a little better off than where I was before my second round of Saw P. But that's coming far considering after my second round of Saw P I had severe insomnia, digestive issues and ED. My sleep is now pretty dam good and digestion is pretty good as long as I stick to paleo. My ED is more to the bad side of moderate and I am in better shape that I was in before my first round of Saw P. I can thank Cd's protocol that I discovered of PH shortly after my second round of Saw P (when I was at my worst) for all of my improvments.

As far as the pine pollen goes, I have found studies that show the some of the same fatty acids and plant sterols found in saw P are also found in Pine Pollen . I have expressed that concern on this website and got responses indicating that the fatty acid and plant sterol content in pine pollen is simply not high enough to inhibit 5AR.

Personally I believe this to be true but because I was actually messed up by Saw P twice and because I am still recovering I avoid pine pollen. This is just my opnion seeing that I don't think the potential reward out weighs the potential risk when it comes to my case. However I should also point out Pine pollen made me feel pretty dam good for the month I took it. I just don't feel like I need to take pine pollen because my diet and testosterone levels have already been addressed.

The one part of this protocol that I am guilty of not following is the fasting. The only fast I did was one seven day juice fast. I could totally handle going another seven days but I went from 195-179 pounds in only seven days of juice fasting ...I'm 6 foot 5 and looked really really unhealthy at 179 So I had to stop. Eventually (unless I recover first) I'll be saving up enough money to take about a month off from work/life so I can go to CA and just do a two week water fast with two weeks to recover so I can at least get back up to a somewhat normal weight before being seen by friends and family ect ...I'm curruntly 206 with almost no body fat. I went from 200-206 during a recent 6 week run on a DHT prohormone which I have been off of now for five weeks and I have kept all of my gains. I figure after another six week run in mid June and continuing to work out I can get up go 215. Once I'm at that weight I'll feel comfortable going into a 2 week water fast.

[Lookingforhelp]

If you have celiacs disease than your digestive issues go beyond mine. How is that diagnosed anyway , with a lower endoscopy I'm assuming ? My digestive issues consisted of severe constipation that started after my second round of Saw P. When I say severe I mean I had a barium swallow Cat scan done that showed severe constipation. It took almost two years of eating a mostly paleo only diet to see improvments. If I get off of my diet than the problem returns really fast.

To answere your question I took Avodart (duel 5 alpha reductase inhibitor) when I was twenty two years old and had no problems what so ever.

I took my first round of Saw P when I was twenty six and got messed up. I took my second round of Saw P when I was twenty nine and got even more messed up lol

I'm thirty one and I am a little better off than where I was before my second round of Saw P. But that's coming far considering after my second round of Saw P I had severe insomnia, digestive issues and ED. My sleep is now pretty dam good and digestion is pretty good as long as I stick to paleo. My ED is more to the bad side of moderate and I am in better shape that I was in before my first round of Saw P. I can thank Cd's protocol that I discovered of PH shortly after my second round of Saw P (when I was at my worst) for all of my improvments.

As far as the pine pollen goes, I have found studies that show the some of the same fatty acids and plant sterols found in saw P are also found in Pine Pollen . I have expressed that concern on this website and got responses indicating that the fatty acid and plant sterol content in pine pollen is simply not high enough to inhibit 5AR.

Personally I believe this to be true but because I was actually messed up by Saw P twice and because I am still recovering I avoid pine pollen. This is just my opnion seeing that I don't think the potential reward out weighs the potential risk when it comes to my case. However I should also point out Pine pollen made me feel pretty dam good for the month I took it. I just don't feel like I need to take pine pollen because my diet and testosterone levels have already been addressed.

The one part of this protocol that I am guilty of not following is the fasting. The only fast I did was one seven day juice fast. I could totally handle going another seven days but I went from 195-179 pounds in only seven days of juice fasting ...I'm 6 foot 5 and looked really really unhealthy at 179 So I had to stop. Eventually (unless I recover first) I'll be saving up enough money to take about a month off from work/life so I can go to CA and just do a two week water fast with two weeks to recover so I can at least get back up to a somewhat normal weight before being seen by friends and family ect ...I'm curruntly 206 with almost no body fat. I went from 200-206 during a recent 6 week run on a DHT prohormone which I have been off of now for five weeks and I have kept all of my gains. I figure after another six week run in mid June and continuing to work out I can get up go 215. Once I'm at that weight I'll feel comfortable going into a 2 week water fast.

I never had an endoscopy but I have had blood tests which were high positives. I would have to go on a diet of eating pasta and bread for 6 weeks before he endoscopy then to be told I have it? It wasn't worth the damage. I have also had genetic testing for possible risks and a massive red flag for me was celiacs and over autoimmune gut issues. My father has crohns.
I decided to go gluten free and this is definitely what has aided my sleep and brain fog. I also posted further back in this post about a study with men with celiacs disease. They found they had raised prolactin levels and low 5 alpha reductase activity, going gluten free within a year the enzyme activity recovered. This with the way I felt was enough to know that gluten was no good for me.

Interestingly enough my prolactin levels are still high. I've had success with dopamine agonists before which have returned me to a near normal state but after a couple of weeks tapered off. Something happens hormone wise but I've delt with shitty Drs who would not test me again during the medications. They would just have me on cabergoline forever. I want to balance my hormones.. I don't have a tumor with regards to the prolactin. I have strange blood sugar issues, almost like a diabetic but from research I understand that prolactin can be implemented in diabetes too.

Do you have any blood sugar type issues? Feeling strange when not eating or after eating? Tingling in feet? Restless legs?

I've done everything health wise to get me there. Excercise and diet is tuned in perfectly as well as sleep. Need a little nudge in the right direction. If I really don't get anywhere with the endocrinologist next week I will be thinking about ordering the t boosting herbs.

My situation differs slightly from everyone on here. 5 years ago I had head trauma. It's hard to know if it's the saw palmetto or that which is fucking me now. I have no doubt it contributed to it. My dick looks normal, it's not cold, my nuts are big. I have more body hair per day and lose it off my head per night. It's hard to believe that I'm still suffering with 5 alpha reductase issues!...anyways, whatever it is I'll beat it.

I'm also tall. 6ft 4. Used to weigh around 216 pounds but since I've stopped working in my physical job and gone healtny diet wise I'm around 198. This is what also puts me off doing another fast as I will look so fucking ill.

Thanks for getting back to me.

[5 alpha victim]

I never had an endoscopy but I have had blood tests which were high positives. I would have to go on a diet of eating pasta and bread for 6 weeks before he endoscopy then to be told I have it? It wasn't worth the damage. I have also had genetic testing for possible risks and a massive red flag for me was celiacs and over autoimmune gut issues. My father has crohns.
I decided to go gluten free and this is definitely what has aided my sleep and brain fog. I also posted further back in this post about a study with men with celiacs disease. They found they had raised prolactin levels and low 5 alpha reductase activity, going gluten free within a year the enzyme activity recovered. This with the way I felt was enough to know that gluten was no good for me.

Interestingly enough my prolactin levels are still high. I've had success with dopamine agonists before which have returned me to a near normal state but after a couple of weeks tapered off. Something happens hormone wise but I've delt with shitty Drs who would not test me again during the medications. They would just have me on cabergoline forever. I want to balance my hormones.. I don't have a tumor with regards to the prolactin. I have strange blood sugar issues, almost like a diabetic but from research I understand that prolactin can be implemented in diabetes too.

Do you have any blood sugar type issues? Feeling strange when not eating or after eating? Tingling in feet? Restless legs?

I've done everything health wise to get me there. Excercise and diet is tuned in perfectly as well as sleep. Need a little nudge in the right direction. If I really don't get anywhere with the endocrinologist next week I will be thinking about ordering the t boosting herbs.

My situation differs slightly from everyone on here. 5 years ago I had head trauma. It's hard to know if it's the saw palmetto or that which is fucking me now. I have no doubt it contributed to it. My dick looks normal, it's not cold, my nuts are big. I have more body hair per day and lose it off my head per night. It's hard to believe that I'm still suffering with 5 alpha reductase issues!...anyways, whatever it is I'll beat it.

I'm also tall. 6ft 4. Used to weigh around 216 pounds but since I've stopped working in my physical job and gone healtny diet wise I'm around 198. This is what also puts me off doing another fast as I will look so fucking ill.

Thanks for getting back to me.

Dam, they told you that you needed to eat pasta and bread before doing the endoscopy ? Why is that ? Does not sound like you needed the endoscopy to diagnose it anyway but I'm just curious.

Could you post a link to the study about the guy with celiacs disease and low 5 AR?
Do the results of the study actually connect a gluten free diet and increase 5AR?

The strange blood sugar issues you are having , are you getting low or high readings ? Or both?

I don't feel strange after or before eating in any way . However when I first crashed when I was 26... I had a couple abnormally low blood sugar readings . Low enough that warranted further blood testing to test for diabetes. My understanding of diabetes (and this is not something I know. Lot about) is that in order to have diabetes you need to have a combination of high and blood sugar readings. My doctor did agree that it was strange that I had unexplained low blood sugar readings but explained that all it means at the end of the day is my body burns energy much faster than others and to eat small portions more often.

I'd run from anything your enfo tells you to do regarding increasing T, I have been their done that and the end result is never good. If you try TRT do a low dose gel and give it three months tops of no improvements and get off of it. Don't buy into the "it usually takes a year of TRT to correct your issues". For our cases that's BS. Honestly though I would not go on it at all . Just use your endo to run blood work. In other words try the natural way to raise your levels and then go verify that you raised them through labs with the endo.

I believe in the fasting as far as how it can help us. Being 6'4. 6,5 and under 220 to begin with makes it much harder to fast than for everyone else. We are the hardest of the hard gainers. Just being up to 205 for me takes the same level of effort that guys on this website put into it who are probable 6-8 inches shorter and weigh about 220.

[Cdsnuts]

I believe in the fasting as far as how it can help us. Being 6'4. 6,5 and under 220 to begin with makes it much harder to fast than for everyone else. We are the hardest of the hard gainers. Just being up to 205 for me takes the same level of effort that guys on this website put into it who are probable 6-8 inches shorter and weigh about 220.

Not true. You're placing limitations on yourself.....needlessly. Just so you know, I'm 6' 4.5" and have water fasted for up to 21 days and have gotten down to a weight of 169 lbs. My starting weight was 215. We can fast just as long as anyone else can. Aesthetically, I looked like a cancer patient when I was through, but this has nothing to do with looks and everything to do with what the fast can do for you physiologically.

Stop assuming these things.

[5 alpha victim]

Not true. You're placing limitations on yourself.....needlessly. Just so you know, I'm 6' 4.5" and have water fasted for up to 21 days and have gotten down to a weight of 169 lbs. My starting weight was 215. We can fast just as long as anyone else can. Aesthetically, I looked like a cancer patient when I was through, but this has nothing to do with looks and everything to do with what the fast can do for you physiologically.

Stop assuming these things.

I seen your avatar at one point and figured you had to to be at least 250 pounds but did not realize you where pushing 6'5".

I guess I did assume that I'm the only tall guy who went down to 179 pounds during the very limited time I spent fasting.

I suppose I would have been pretty happy though if I had went another 7 days and only lost another 10 pounds and ended up at 169. I don't have a major issue with temporarily looking like a cancer patient for the future benefits. The biggest challenge for me with the fasting is that it does not go well with my job at all. I'm in law enforcement so being crazy fatigued at work is just a straight up safety issue for me. I know I can and will do fourteen days in the future though once I can get enough time off.

[Cdsnuts]

I seen your avatar at one point and figured you had to to be at least 250 pounds but did not realize you where pushing 6'5".

I guess I did assume that I'm the only tall guy who went down to 179 pounds during the very limited time I spent fasting.

I suppose I would have been pretty happy though if I had went another 7 days and only lost another 10 pounds and ended up at 169. I don't have a major issue with temporarily looking like a cancer patient for the future benefits. The biggest challenge for me with the fasting is that it does not go well with my job at all. I'm in law enforcement so being crazy fatigued at work is just a straight up safety issue for me. I know I can and will do fourteen days in the future though once I can get enough time off.

You got it. You would need to take the time and go some where do to a properly supervised fast. If you can ever do it, it's worth it. Juice feasting is the next best thing although being in law enforcement it would still be sketchy because ANYTIME you cleanse weakness is to be expected.

These days I'm walking around at a comfortable 220 with 10-11% body fat. When cycling the weight goes up and the BF goes down. That is also another reason to REST when you're fasting so that you don't burn body fat un-necessarily and you can go for longer periods of time. You want your body to use the energy for cleansing, not exercise or other things. Also the further you get along in the fast the slower the weight starts to come off. In the beginning when you're dropping water weight I've dropped 10 pounds in DAYS and then it goes to 1.5-2lbs/ day and then around the 14 day mark it goes down to .75-1lb/day.

[Brazilianguy]

You got it. You would need to take the time and go some where do to a properly supervised fast. If you can ever do it, it's worth it. Juice feasting is the next best thing although being in law enforcement it would still be sketchy because ANYTIME you cleanse weakness is to be expected.

These days I'm walking around at a comfortable 220 with 10-11% body fat. When cycling the weight goes up and the BF goes down. That is also another reason to REST when you're fasting so that you don't burn body fat un-necessarily and you can go for longer periods of time. You want your body to use the energy for cleansing, not exercise or other things. Also the further you get along in the fast the slower the weight starts to come off. In the beginning when you're dropping water weight I've dropped 10 pounds in DAYS and then it goes to 1.5-2lbs/ day and then around the 14 day mark it goes down to .75-1lb/day.

Hi Cd, do you still use the same PCT after cycle?

I'm still following your advices and I'm good atm. I don't know what happened but my test boosters stopped working, I guess it started to happen when I started to eating bad food and not drinking green smoothies, and also my vitamins and minerals supplement is over. Maybe it's one thing that helps the boosters to work, I really don't know. But I'm good, waking up with morning wood some days, some days with some libido, some muscle, mentally good, with some emotion. I would say I have a little bit of everything now, before I had none or even worse I would feel tired all day etc. I hope others are getting better too.

Thanks dude.