Eric Potratz.... new company, new product!

[hossam]

Edited out the website. I don't think anyone is going to give you Eric's phone # or email. I don't even think anyone else has either of them aside from myself and H2S. Maybe the email.

i have it as well

[Eric Potratz]

I don't mean to put a dampener on this but to say it's a higher purity isn't exactly correct, it's actually exactly the same there has been no added carotenoids they are naturally occurring in the tocopowder itself all that has happened is the active amount has been found and declared on the label as 9700IU Vitamin A.[/url]

Funny, I just got to this 1.5 year old post on my “to-do” list. Better late than never!

O.N., our Palm Fruit uses a unique extract that is exclusive to Botanical Craft, and I know for a fact it is not the same as your Tococaps product. Palm Fruit has about 10 mg/serving of carotenoids, while it looks like the Tococaps has about 0.2 mg/serving. Thats about 50 times more carotenoids per serving. FYI, Palm Fruit has the highest dose of tocotrienols and carotenoids per serving of any product on the market, hence the higher than average price.

[O.N.]

Funny, I just got to this 1.5 year old post on my “to-do” list. Better late than never!

O.N., our Palm Fruit uses a unique extract that is exclusive to Botanical Craft, and I know for a fact it is not the same as your Tococaps product. Palm Fruit has about 10 mg/serving of carotenoids, while it looks like the Tococaps has about 0.2 mg/serving. Thats about 50 times more carotenoids per serving. FYI, Palm Fruit has the highest dose of tocotrienols and carotenoids per serving of any product on the market, hence the higher than average price.

Exclusive to Botanical Craft....LOL did you change the way mother nature creates palm fruit.

Even your PDF says exactly what I have said you buy it from carotech, you've had it analyzed by Covance and started to declare the Vitamin A from Carotenes.....you even stated this on your label



The extract used is exactly the same, as for the product having the highest dose per serving yes it does...per serve but not per container of per dollar.
4312mg palm fruit or TocoCaps 6500mg which is actually 7120mg per container with our new contractor. Either way 6500 or 7120 or even 7000mg work it off that.

You are playing on marketing spin claiming you have added something to the product when it naturally occurs in the extract itself....your product doesn't have 43x more carotenoids than your original toco8 per gram and you haven't beefed up the product.

Copied from email:

As you may know I launched Palm Fruit about 14 months ago under the new company Botanical Craft.

People have asked, "Why is Palm Fruit more expensive than the old Toco-8 from Primordial?" There are a couple reasons for this:
1. New FDA regulations require the active ingredients to exceed label claims throughout the product's 2-year shelf-life. This means Palm Fruit is almost 20% more potent than Toco-8 to buffer against natural variation and loss of potency over time.
2. Palm Fruit contains a new patented extract of tocotrienols + carotenoids, delivering over 35 naturally occurring vitamers and phytonutrients. This means Palm Fruit has 43x more carotenoids than Toco-8 and other tocotrienol products on the market.
Palm Fruit is far superior to Toco-8 and provides greater benefits for hair growth, skin protection from sunlight, and cardiovascular health.

Recently, we obtained lower costs on Palm Fruit by ramping up production for 2015. To celebrate, I’ve put together an exclusive offer for previous Primordial customers so you can save 50% and get Palm Fruit for only $24.99 on the monthly autoship plan:
Palm Fruit Jar

Try not to be duped so quickly I previously pointed this out before and I'll point it out again.

1. The FDA doesn't require you to exceed label claims....simply meet label claims...good manufacturers will exceed 1-5% to ensure dosage is correct from loss/spillage etc. (If safe to do so)
1.1 Palm fruit contains the same 20% extract that toco8 uses it just isn't watered down with tapicoa flour...remember toco8 it was 60 serves originally and was nice and bright orange then it was 30 serves and lighter in color with the flour added.....so Yeah if you compare the water down version of toco8 (which was the final version Pp used) to palm fruit yeah palm fruit looks way better in that lighting.

See here:





2. Palm Fruit does not have 43x more carotenoids than Toco-8...Eric has simply started declaring the naturally found Vitamins and carotenoids on the label.....when we get new labels printed we too will be making the same claim to keep up with the spin.....however we wont be selling it as spin...we will make a statement that we are now showing all naturally occurring nutrients.


Lastly when botanical crafty ran out of stock a few months back...this was the exact time we were having supply issues......wonder why?
I'll tell you the CEO of Carotech lives partly in Maylasia and Australia so we chat....we know the purchase qty and purities that are being used they are exactly the same as ours. And as to the reason we almost ran out of stock and botanical actually did run out of stock was because of a cyclone that took out many coconut trees which were being used for bio diesel so instead the industries switched to using toco bio diesel.


I'll actually show you how to work this out from the nutritional panels that it is the same extract/supplier:

Break down	TocoCaps 130mg	Palm Fruit BC 154mg	% versus extract TocoCaps	% versus extract Palm Fruit BC
d-alpha-tocotrienol	30mg	36mg	23.07%	23.37%
d-beta-tocotrienol	4mg	4mg	3.07%	2.59%
d-gamma-tocotrienol	52mg	61mg	40%	39.61%
d-delta-tocotrienol	14mg	16mg	10.67%	10.38%
d-alpha-tocopherols	30mg	36mg	23.07%	23.37%

As for the added carotenoids it actually states on the palm fruit label"Vitamin A 9700IU 194% (as carotenoids from palm fruit extract)"
^ This proves they are not added they are naturally occurring in the extract and a simple google search also turns up typical values of Vitamin A found in palm fruit extracts.

Here is carotech's spec sheet if you wish to compare yourself: tocomax-20-spec.pdf This actually shows you that 20% is the minimum extract percentage not the actual...it also shows you the typical percentage found. (additionally it also shows you typical percentages for each vitamin this is why the above label figures can vary depending on where you wish to display purity on your label eg d-Alpha-Tocotrienol range is 45 – 70 mg/g typical is 50 mg/g)




I think getting behind Eric with the FDA issues is a good thing...he is after all innocent I am for this not against it.
But buying into the marketing spin and hype is something you need to make an informed choice for yourself.....do your own research...please don't take my word for it....LOOK INTO IT i want you to find out if I'm telling the truth or lying.

Did toco8 not work at growing back your hair and having positive health effects?
Is Palm fruit now 43x better at doing the same thing?

Or are the results from the natural unadulterated extract all you need....case in point: http://www.swolesource.com/forum/wicked-supplements/1574-amazing-tococaps-review-2.html#post38297

Post explaining costs/savings/mg's from here: swolesource.com/forum/wicked-supplements/642-tococaps.html#post28033

Thanks for the review, regarding the price here is a simple comparison for you as it is more cost effective:

Toco8 was 30 servings of 153mg Mixed Tocotrienols/Tocopherols per serve total toco's per container= 4590mg $29.95
Cost per day $0.99

Soon to be released product "palm fruit extract" is 1 scoop 28 servings 154mg Mixed Tocotrienols/Tocopherols per serve total amount of toco's= 4312mg $49.99
Cost per day $1.78

Wicked Supplements TocoCaps is 2 capsules 130mg Mixed Tocotrienols/Tocopherols per serve total amount of toco's per container= 6500mg $49.95 AUD - works out even cheaper in USD
Cost per day $0.99 AUD - works out even cheaper in USD

Based off the 2 currently available products palm fruit and TocoCaps you get the following:
28 days with palm fruit / 50 days with TocoCaps (an additional 22 days)
powder in drink etc / the convenience of capsules
Mixed Tocotrienols/Tocopherols per container 4312mg palm fruit / TocoCaps 6500mg

In addition Toco8 in it's final months was watered down with tapicoa flour as it use to be 60 servings before it became 30. TocoCaps has and never will change in quality and there is zero need to water the product down.

I understand many of you are very loyal Pp followers and this may seem demeaning to toco8 or palm fruit extract but the above post was regarding the price I have simply laid out the information available on the net to all of you regarding servings, mg's and price.

Beyond this as pointed out previously since we switched to a new contractor our product has increased from 630mg to 712mg per serve...once new labels are printed this will be reflected this provides you with a total of 7120mg per container of tocotrienols/tocopherols But since we are not in the spin game our labels will be stated with a built in overage. You are also welcome to weigh your capsules to confirm this.

You have to remember you are not buying the servings....that was simply part of the comparison. (product composition of vitamins are the same...it's the same supplier this is what is pointed out above)

It's like filling your car up with cheap fuel versus premium you are buying Mixed Tocotrienols/Tocopherols per container 4312mg palm fruit or TocoCaps 6500mg which is actually 7120mg per container with our new contractor. Either way 6500 or 7120 or even 7000mg work it off that.

As for the amounts of Tocotrienols/Tocopherols they are the same I have pointed this out for you, it is up to the supplement company where they declare the value at as it is variable due to summer/winter seasons , crop age, fruit size etc at the plantation. eg d-Alpha-Tocotrienol range is 45 – 70 mg/g typical is 50 mg/g) So we could label it as 50mg or even 60-65mg or if we really wanted to 70mg.....as you see in the table it is the same and coming from the same supplier.


I'll lay our your raw Tocotrienols/Tocopherols cost here for you per 1000mg
botanical craft 4312mg per container $49.99 cost per 1000mg = $11.59
TocoCaps 7120mg per container $49.95 AUD cost per 1000mg = $7.01 (actual mg per container)
TocoCaps 6500mg per container $49.95 AUD cost per 1000mg = $7.68

$7.01 AUD currently = $5.65 USD

Discounts available:
SoCal 10% product cost $44.95 USD cost per 1000mg $6.31 USD
Online Nutrition 10% product cost $44.95 AUD cost per 1000mg $6.31 USD
or 15% with orders over $150 product cost $42.45 AUD cost per 1000mg $5.96 AUD


You want me to blow his price out of the water no problem
Sale is now re-activated buy 3 get 1 free use discount code WICKED15 to get 15% off
This now works out to be including shipping costs $5.10 AUD per 1000mg.....AUD!!! so you are about 20% less than this once converted. $4.11 USD (this is including the shipping cost from here to you)

Sale for buy 3 get 1 free ends the end of the month



-----------------------------------
Sorry should have also listed Botanicals newly discounted costs/saving
botanical craft 4312mg per container $24.99 cost per 1000mg = $5.79


If you compare apples for apples
botanical craft 4312mg per container $24.99
and then work out our sale price for 4312mg worth within the product $5.10 AUD divided by 1000mg x 4312mg = $21.99 AUD delivered to your door

Or USD is $4.11 USD divided by 1000mg x 4312mg = $17.72 USD delivered to your door


Like i said it works out much better and our product is unadulterated just the natural extract.

If he wants to continue the games and marketing spin we can go all day it doesn't cost that much when you buy 200kg conatiners versus the 1-10kg packs he buys.

[O.N.]

www.coconutresearchcenter.org/article%20red%20palm%20oil.htm

Red palm oil provides a perfect solution. It supplies the needed fat and vitamin A precursors. Red palm oil is the richest dietary source of provitamin A carotenes (beta-carotene and alpha-carotene). It has 15 times more provitamin A carotenes than carrots and 300 times more than tomatoes. This has made it a valued resource in the treatment of vitamin A deficiency. Just one teaspoon a day of red palm oil supplies children with the daily recommend amount of vitamin A. Nursing mothers are encouraged to supplement their diet with palm oil to enrich their milk with the vitamin. Studies show that adding red palm oil into the diet can double or triple the amount of vitamin A in mother's milk.

The children are not only getting the vitamin A they need but other important nutrients as well. Red palm oil is a virtual powerhouse of nutrition. It contains by far, more nutrients than any other dietary oil. In addition to beta-carotene, alpha-carotene, and lycopene it contains at least 20 other carotenes along with vitamin E, vitamin K, CoQ10, squalene, phytosterols, flavonoids, phenolic acids, and glycolipids. Palm oil is one of the richest natural sources of vitamin E. In addition to ordinary vitamin E, it also contains the highest amount of a super potent form of vitamin E known as tocotrienol. There are four tocotrienols. Palm oil contains all of them. These tocotrienols have up to 60 times the antioxidant activity of ordinary vitamin E. The combination of vitamin E, tocotrienols, carotenes, and other antioxidants makes palm oil a super antioxidant food.

Red palm oil is loaded with so many nutrients and antioxidants it's like a natural dietary supplement. In fact, it is currently being encapsulated and sold as a vitamin supplement. The oil is also available in bottles like other vegetable oils for kitchen use.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14506003

There is general consensus that food-based approaches are viable and sustainable options for addressing vitamin A deficiency in populations. One such example is the fortification of food which, if properly monitored, could make a significant contribution towards improving the vitamin A status of populations throughout the world. Red palm fruit oil (RPO) with its high content of natural carotenoids, lends itself exceptionally well to this purpose at both household and commercial level. Results are now available from several feeding trials incorporating RPO into diets at household level or into commercially manufactured products. RPO in the maternal diet was shown to improve the vitamin A status of lactating mothers and their infants. Consumption of RPO incorporated in a sweet snack or biscuits significantly improved plasma retinol concentrations in children with subclinical vitamin A deficiency. There is evidence that if only 35-50% of the recommended daily intake for vitamin A were to be provided by RPO, it may be sufficient to prevent vitamin A deficiency (hypovitaminosis A). Red palm oil has a highly bioconvertible form of alpha- and beta-carotene, a long shelf life, and a higher cost/benefit ratio when compared to other approaches such as high-dose-vitamin A supplements and fortification of foods with retinyl ester fortificants. Consumption of RPO is safe and cannot produce hypervitaminosis A. Considering all the current information about RPO, the initiation of food-based interventions involving its use in developing countries with an endemic vitamin A deficiency problem, appears to be a logical choice.

[Eric Potratz]

Exclusive to Botanical Craft....LOL did you change the way mother nature creates palm fruit.

Even your PDF says exactly what I have said you buy it from carotech, you've had it analyzed by Covance and started to declare the Vitamin A from Carotenes.....you even stated this on your label

Yes, our raw material is from Carotech and the Palm Fruit extract is exclusive to Botanical Craft as per our agreement with Carotech.

The extract used is exactly the same

Again, the extract in Palm Fruit is not the same as Toco-8 or Tococaps, and it is the carotenoid content that primarily makes the difference. If you ever actually assay your product from a 3rd party lab, you will see that your product does not have 9,700 IU of vitamin A from carotenoids. Toco-8 and Tococaps used a tocotrienol extract with a trace residual amount of naturally occuring carotenoids. Our product is a full-spectrum extract of tocols and carotenoids which includes 10 mg/serving of naturally occurring palm-based carotenoids. This is about 50x more carotenoids than than both Toco-8 and your Tococaps.

You are playing on marketing spin claiming you have added something to the product when it naturally occurs in the extract itself....your product doesn't have 43x more carotenoids than your original toco8 per gram and you haven't beefed up the product.

It is really simple. We are using a different palm extract, thus explaining why our product contains 10 mg of naturally occurring palm-based carotenoids, and yours only contains 0.2 mg. If you want information on how such a high carotenoid concentration is achieved I suggest you read this patent.

[5 alpha victim]

know this is off topic but why does wickeds toco caps contain B-Sitosterol, Campestrol and Stigmasterol?

These are three of the main PhytoSterols found in Saw Palmetto.

Fatty Acid and Phytosterol Content of Commercial Saw Palmetto Supplements

Look on page 3

The toco from wicked is essentially Saw Palmetto with out the 5 Ar reducing Fatty acids that saw palmetto also contains.

Should this be of concern?

Does the toco 8 or this newer toco product also contain these PhytoSterols?

[Eric Potratz]

know this is off topic but why does wickeds toco caps contain B-Sitosterol, Campestrol and Stigmasterol?

These are three of the main PhytoSterols found in Saw Palmetto.

Fatty Acid and Phytosterol Content of Commercial Saw Palmetto Supplements

Look on page 3

The toco from wicked is essentially Saw Palmetto with out the 5 Ar reducing Fatty acids that saw palmetto also contains.

Should this be of concern?

Does the toco 8 or this newer toco product also contain these PhytoSterols?

Yes, any palm based supplement is naturally going to contain some small amount of phytosterols. The amounts should be fairly minimal at under 10 mg. If I recall correctly the effective anti-5a-reductase dose is around 300mg/day of phytosterols, so I wouldn't consider Palm Fruit an anti-androgen by any means.

[entropy]

know this is off topic but why does wickeds toco caps contain B-Sitosterol, Campestrol and Stigmasterol?

These are three of the main PhytoSterols found in Saw Palmetto.

Fatty Acid and Phytosterol Content of Commercial Saw Palmetto Supplements

Look on page 3

The toco from wicked is essentially Saw Palmetto with out the 5 Ar reducing Fatty acids that saw palmetto also contains.

Should this be of concern?

Does the toco 8 or this newer toco product also contain these PhytoSterols?

Do you actually read Bro? I already told you, these phytosterols are present everywhere and naturally occurring in palm fruit just like they're present in avocado.

[5 alpha victim]

I seen your response to my question in the other thread. I believed your answere. I was just looking to get other people's opnions on it as well and this thread looked like a good one to post the question on.

I was thinking well these phyto Sterols are also natural occurring in saw palmetto but yet saw palmetto inhibits DHT. But clearly there is the question of how much of these phytosterols need to be ingested inorder to inhibit DHT. You addressed the point of toco caps not containing enough of these PhytoSterols to inhibit Dht in the other thread as well.

The more precise answere I was searching for that Eric posted was exactly what I was looking for.

Thanks for the info

With this all being said Seeing that saw palmetto contains a much higher percentage of fatty acids than it does Phytostetols perhaps the PhytoSterols in saw palmetto is not what's responsible for saw Palmetto's 5AR inhibiting effects. From the saw p study:

"Saw palmetto extracts predominantly consist of fatty acids (~90%) and are unique compared with other extracts and vegetable and nut oils"

[weekend]

having both palm fruit and tococaps in my house right now, i have just tried my first dose of palm fruit. it tastes amazing. i don't know why it tastes so damn good.

i can't say i have for sure noticed anything over my years of using toco8, but what i can say is the product in tococaps tastes just like the old toco8, which i did not like at all! now i am excited to eat the palmfruit. yes i just ate it plain. dont breathe in while you drop it on your tongue.