Eric Potratz.... new company, new product!

[hossam]

The palm fruit tastes amazing with Pomegranate juice, and i get an amazing
calming effect immediately after drinking it

[tallstraw]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought it actually tasted good. Smooth slight fruit flavor, and that little nutty aftertaste. My only quarrel is unless I shake it in a shaker cup it doesn't mix as well as I'd like..so I just spoon those things out and eat em when I'm done string the glass.

[Speck]

Do you actually read Bro? I already told you, these phytosterols are present everywhere and naturally occurring in palm fruit just like they're present in avocado.

B-sitosterol is also present in Cistanche. Probably pine pollen too.

Basically it's in just about everything plant-based.

[5 alpha victim]

Yea it sux. For normal people (even people who have experienced some version or degree of having an adverse reaction to Dht inhibitors this should not be a problem as far as coming across small amounts of B sit

My situation is a little diff though seeing that I took the most powerful PRESCRIPTION strength dhT inhibitor available (Avodart) and had NO adverse reaction what so ever.

But on two seperate occasions after taking Saw P I experienced a severe adverse reaction. Therefor saying that I am senstive to the contents in Saw P is a understatement. Seeing that B-sit is in Saw P I'm considering my self extremely sensitive to this particular phyto sterol. So Ya for me going the extra mile to cut as much as this praticular Phytosterol out of my diet as possible is necessary.

Toco caps for me is out of the equation. I cut out Mucuna pruriens from SMH bevause it contains B sit even though the Mucuna seems to be a really effective T booster.
I also had to cut out Avens Sativa because it contains B sit as well.

Even though we know pine pollen contains Gibberlins (which according to the study I posted in another thread is a mild 5AR inhibitor) and other Phytostetols I can't find any evidence that pine pollen contains B-Sit.

Also I have been on 1 table spoon of pine pollen for almost a week now and have nothing but good things to say. I'm not getting the increased sex drive from it probable because my endocrin system does not work the right way but I feel awesome on it as far as everything else goes.

[hossam]

Yea it sux. For normal people (even people who have experienced some version or degree of having an adverse reaction to Dht inhibitors this should not be a problem as far as coming across small amounts of B sit

My situation is a little diff though seeing that I took the most powerful PRESCRIPTION strength dhT inhibitor available (Avodart) and had NO adverse reaction what so ever.

But on two seperate occasions after taking Saw P I experienced a severe adverse reaction. Therefor saying that I am senstive to the contents in Saw P is a understatement. Seeing that B-sit is in Saw P I'm considering my self extremely sensitive to this particular phyto sterol. So Ya for me going the extra mile to cut as much as this praticular Phytosterol out of my diet as possible is necessary.

Toco caps for me is out of the equation. I cut out Mucuna pruriens from SMH bevause it contains B sit even though the Mucuna seems to be a really effective T booster.
I also had to cut out Avens Sativa because it contains B sit as well.

Even though we know pine pollen contains Gibberlins (which according to the study I posted in another thread is a mild 5AR inhibitor) and other Phytostetols I can't find any evidence that pine pollen contains B-Sit.

Also I have been on 1 table spoon of pine pollen for almost a week now and have nothing but good things to say. I'm not getting the increased sex drive from it probable because my endocrin system does not work the right way but I feel awesome on it as far as everything else goes.

Palm fruit will not inhabit anything as Eric said, also
1 table spoon is not enough from pine pollen, i take around 5 table spoon a day and the
results is very strong, i even take an AI some times with it

[5 alpha victim]

Dam! 5 Tabel spoons a day. LOL I don't know if I'm ready for 5 tabel spoons of it but maybe I'll work my self up over time. I can honestly say I'm feeling it off of one tabel spoon per day. It feels like a positive energy flowing through me or something..

I'm taking one dose of RES from wicked sups every 3rd day which seems to be giving me positive effects as well.

What are you using for your AI?

[O.N.]

Sorry for my delay in responding to you Eric and the rest of the forum.
Lets just confine this to 1 thread instead of 2 unless we both wish to be repeating our selves in 2 threads.
Can you please confirm a few things for me and for the forum, from your posts highlighted in red.

• 1

Funny, I just got to this 1.5 year old post on my “to-do” list. Better late than never!

O.N., our Palm Fruit uses a unique extract that is exclusive to Botanical Craft, and I know for a fact it is not the same as your Tococaps product. Palm Fruit has about 10 mg/serving of carotenoids, while it looks like the Tococaps has about 0.2 mg/serving. Thats about 50 times more carotenoids per serving. FYI, Palm Fruit has the highest dose of tocotrienols and carotenoids per serving of any product on the market, hence the higher than average price.

Yes, our raw material is from Carotech and the Palm Fruit extract is exclusive to Botanical Craft as per our agreement with Carotech.

Q1: So are you saying that your raw material is not tocomax 20% and that it is actually a unique extract which is exclusive to botanical craft as per an agreement you have with Carotech?

• 2

Again, the extract in Palm Fruit is not the same as Toco-8 or Tococaps, and it is the carotenoid content that primarily makes the difference. If you ever actually assay your product from a 3rd party lab, you will see that your product does not have 9,700 IU of vitamin A from carotenoids. Toco-8 and Tococaps used a tocotrienol extract with a trace residual amount of naturally occuring carotenoids. Our product is a full-spectrum extract of tocols and carotenoids which includes 10 mg/serving of naturally occurring palm-based carotenoids. This is about 50x more carotenoids than than both Toco-8 and your Tococaps.
It is really simple. We are using a different palm extract, thus explaining why our product contains 10 mg of naturally occurring palm-based carotenoids, and yours only contains 0.2 mg.

Q2: Are you saying that you are using a different palm extract to tocomax 20% which contains a higher concentration of carotenoids than tocomax 20% which was previously used in toco8 and also used in our product tococaps?


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Summary:

Can you please answer my above questions and should the above questions I have asked be true statements I apologize as I thought you were using Tocomax 20% and simply 3rd party tested the vitamin A content and started claiming it on your product label.

[Eric Potratz]

I understand your original assumption, and I’m sure it was just a misunderstanding.

Our raw material is not Tocomax 20% per se’, but our product does contain all the same tocols as Tocomax giving us the rights to make claims regarding improved bioavailability, hair growth, cardiovascular health, etc., which have been established for Tocomax type material. Our product also contains carotenoids that exceed that of Tocomax. With that said, our agreement with Carotech is confidential to protect the IP behind our product, so I'm not able to give details that would compromise this. All I can say is that the tocols and carotenoids are coming from palm fruit (elaeis guineensis), and Carotech supplies this material.

[O.N.]

Why is it that you continue to lie?
The truth would have been nice from the beginning Eric, I even gave you the opportunity just now to tell the truth, hell you could have even said yes we are using tocomax 20% + something else....I wouldn't be posting this now or what you are using if you had of said that.

You informed myself and the forum you were having a unique extract made exclusively for botanical craft...which I found very hard to believe, that carotech would go to so much effort for a new product AND for a newly established small business.

But you didn't you decided to stick with your lie that you are not using tocomax 20% and that carotech think so highly of you that they have gone to the effort of making you an exclusive extract just for you.

• Carotech are not producing an exclusive extract/formula for you
• You are using Tocomax 20% along with the addition of the inexpensive Carosol 3%
• You are buying both materials separately and combining them

You're a liar and someone who lies about 1 part of the story is usually lying about many other parts of the story too
Cough Cough..........

It looks as though you paid out loads of money to get out of the mess you created here: https://search.rpxcorp.com/litigation_documents/4448467
Just a couple of months before the "FDA raid".

• In 2008 you struck a deal to pay a 4% commission to Proprietary Wellness for 1 of their patents
• And again in Feb 2010 you struck a deal for a 2nd license agreement with Proprietary Wellness for a 2nd patent of theirs
• In October 2010 you stopped making royalty payments on both licenses
• In May of 2011 you started using a 3rd patent of Proprietary Wellness's patented formulas without a license or permission.
• On 6 February 24, 2011 Proprietary Wellness sent you a letter telling you to cease and desist its use.
• You refused to cease and desist and continued to manufacture, market, and sell dietary supplements of now 3 different patented formulas
• In 2011 you communicated with Proprietary Wellness's 3rd party business customers (other supplement companies) that Proprietary Wellness was making misrepresentations with regards to its intellectual property rights in order to take advantage of individuals and business within the nutritional supplement industry.
• Proprietary Wellness claims you are infringing and/or directing other supplement companies to manufacture, market, and/or sell the protected compounds inducing others to infringe on the patent by making, using, offering to sell, and/or selling in the United States, and/or importing into the United States products or processes that practice the invention claimed in the patents.
• And that you have profited though all of these infringements.

If I read the court documents correctly from your court case there are multiple claims against you for $375,000 in total + sales royalties "which royalties may not be able to be accounted for".
I'll now quote you from your own website based on your raid:

Primordial has been struggling financially for the past several years. We have about $300,000 in debt with various suppliers and creditors.

Even if the FDA raid is true or false....either way I think people can make up their own minds here about you as a person.
What is that saying? Liars and cheaters never prosper

I understand your original assumption, and I’m sure it was just a misunderstanding.

Our raw material is not Tocomax 20% per se’, but our product does contain all the same tocols as Tocomax giving us the rights to make claims regarding improved bioavailability, hair growth, cardiovascular health, etc., which have been established for Tocomax type material. Our product also contains carotenoids that exceed that of Tocomax. With that said, our agreement with Carotech is confidential to protect the IP behind our product, so I'm not able to give details that would compromise this. All I can say is that the tocols and carotenoids are coming from palm fruit (elaeis guineensis), and Carotech supplies this material.

Funny, I just got to this 1.5 year old post on my “to-do” list. Better late than never!

O.N., our Palm Fruit uses a unique extract that is exclusive to Botanical Craft, and I know for a fact it is not the same as your Tococaps product. Palm Fruit has about 10 mg/serving of carotenoids, while it looks like the Tococaps has about 0.2 mg/serving. Thats about 50 times more carotenoids per serving. FYI, Palm Fruit has the highest dose of tocotrienols and carotenoids per serving of any product on the market, hence the higher than average price.

Yes, our raw material is from Carotech and the Palm Fruit extract is exclusive to Botanical Craft as per our agreement with Carotech.

Again, the extract in Palm Fruit is not the same as Toco-8 or Tococaps, and it is the carotenoid content that primarily makes the difference. If you ever actually assay your product from a 3rd party lab, you will see that your product does not have 9,700 IU of vitamin A from carotenoids. Toco-8 and Tococaps used a tocotrienol extract with a trace residual amount of naturally occuring carotenoids. Our product is a full-spectrum extract of tocols and carotenoids which includes 10 mg/serving of naturally occurring palm-based carotenoids. This is about 50x more carotenoids than than both Toco-8 and your Tococaps.
It is really simple. We are using a different palm extract, thus explaining why our product contains 10 mg of naturally occurring palm-based carotenoids, and yours only contains 0.2 mg.

O.N.

Thanks for hijacking the thread with inaccurate info.

Palm Fruit does have 43 times more carotenoids than Toco-8, and about 50 times more carotenoids than Tococaps. Palm Fruit is using a much improved extract, which includes a much higher concentration of carotenoids than the previously used Tocomax. BTW, Palm Fruit has the highest concentration of tocotrienols and carotenoids of any product on the market. This includes at least 10 different tocochromanols and 18 different naturally occurring carotenoids from palm fruit.

You can see our product has about 9 mg/serving (1.45 g) of carotenoids, while Tococaps only has about 0.2 mg/serving. That means each serving of Palm Fruit has about 13,300 IU of vitamin A, while Tococaps would only have about 330 IU of vitamin A.

[Eric Potratz]

Why is it that you continue to lie?
The truth would have been nice from the beginning Eric, I even gave you the opportunity just now to tell the truth, hell you could have even said yes we are using tocomax 20% + something else....I wouldn't be posting this now or what you are using if you had of said that.

You informed myself and the forum you were having a unique extract made exclusively for botanical craft...which I found very hard to believe, that carotech would go to so much effort for a new product AND for a newly established small business.

Kirk,

First off, the Proprietary Wellness allegations found in that document are a very small part of a very complicated case. Regardless of your opinion and conspiracy theories, we settled with them years ago and they had nothing to do with the FDA raid or the demise of Primordial.

Now let me get this straight... because it looks like you're throwing a lot of mud to cover some pretty simple facts....

First you say our products are exactly the same and I'm lying about our product being superior?

But now you take that back and instead I’m a big liar about the origin of our superior material?

Well atleast we are now on the same page that our Palm Fruit is superior. (Hopefully the next leap in logic will come sooner rather than later)

Regarding our formula, everything I’ve said still applies. If you are really interested in getting formulation details so you can copy my product go ahead and send our Palm Fruit to a lab to reverse engineer it and do your own R&D. This would be a bit more respectable than making a bunch of false theories and allegations to try and get me to purge information.