AAS - What's the point?

[Sperwer]

How long do you plan on living? Realistically, maybe 70 and then your body is useless, maybe 75?? hard to say. I see smokers, fat ones intheir 70's and think their damage has to be way more than the damage i'm causing. I agree with all of what you said Infamy. My view though is quality of life in a shorter time span. Really, with some exceptions, most people's lives are productively over at 60-65. You can continue to develop your mind beyond that barring any mental disorder, or dementia or alzheimers.... So as sad as it makes me, I expect to end my life relatively early, no drawn out battle and dosette full of meds that I can't remember to take. Being huge isn't gonna happen with me as I started too late, but looking like a fuckable fireman without the moustache, yeah baby!

A legitimate perspective, but very different from mine.

I agree that there are far worse things health-wise than AAS; in fact the majority of the population in most developed countries seem to be engaged in the wholesale destruction of their collective health through, smoking, drinking and atrocious nutrition. In terms of cost/benefit calculations, governments would be better advised to go after the producers of e.g., high fructose corn syrup, than people like Eric. But that's a different rant...

It's on life expectancy that I differ - probably understandably since I'm already well into my 60s, and only started training 6 years ago (precisely because I wanted to do something about what I perceived to be my impending rapid physical degeneration). And this is from someone lucky enough to have some pretty good genetics: my paternal grandfather and father both made it to 75, despite the fact that they smoked heavily (although my Dad quite his 3 pack/day Luckies habit in his mid-forties) and drank moderately to heavily and, in my father's case, had a bad hear valve as a result of having had rheumatic fever as a kid. My mother is still alive, pushing 90 and her 5 brothers and sisters and my grandmother all made it into their late 80s mid nineties. And none of these folks ever did much in the way of exercise or nutrition (although for a good long portion of their lives they also were not eating the sort of garbage food that became such a big part of our diet starting (in a big way) in the 60s. I never smoked, never drank much and have drunk even less for the past 20 years, so with the family history of longevity, I figured I was set. Except that starting around 54-55 I started to feel like crap. Stiff, sore, prone to colds, moody, blue a lot of the time, already starting to get noticeably round and stoop-shouldered, etc., etc. When I finally blew out a couple of lumbar disks for no obvious reason, I decided a change was in order. Once I had recovered sufficiently I started lifting and have been at it ever since. All of the shit that used to ail me has gradually gone away. My goal now is 120 and, on the way, I plan to demolish the records that 90-something is setting in the bench press these days (and I'll do it RAW and (maybe) natural) As far as AAS are concerned, I just regard it as another potential item in the tool box that i'll need to get there, one that I am as unwilling to let get in the way of the larger goal as I am willing to explore what it has to contribute..

[Infamy]

Are you suggesting that there is no way to use AAS responsibly in a prudent manner as a tool; that they are inherently addictive and harmful, even if not abused? Is the concept of "abuse" even pertinent in your considerations?

Is it safe to say that you don't believe Robby Robinson has been natural for the past 13-14 years since retiring from active competition (as claimed) and that his current condition is res ipsa loquitur evidence of his continued use of gear?

Well, my opinion is "no" there is no safe way to use AAS for muscle building purposes. Note the importance of the highlighted sentence as I do believe that whilst testosterone is clearly an AAS, TRT isn't particularly detrimental to male health if used at correct doses and monitored closely. Even then some men need to stop using TRT due to unpleasant side effects such as prostate hypertrophy, dyslipidemia, carpal tunnel syndrome from water retention, excess estrogen etc etc.

The fact is that when you take enough of substance x to build muscle - it's harmful. Id be happy to be proven wrong and if you can think of an example of any AAS which when taken at muscle building doses doesn't do that. Even testosterone (which is probably one of the safer steroids) at high doses needed to build muscle causes deleterious effects on the human body.

I would say theoretically, if not abused, then possibly the resultant damage may be recoverable given sufficient time off between cycles. But the fact remains, the cycle will cause damage. The amount and severity of the damage is dependant on many factors - amount taken, steroid used, length of time on, age, genetics and diet to name but a few.

in practice, I don't think any bodybuilders have the ability to limit themselves to say, one short cycle every 5 years or something though so I think that question is a redundant one due to human mental frailties.

I'm not familiar with Robby Robinson other than what Ive seen from a quick google search now so it would be unwise for me to pretend I know about what he does and doesnt do. I accept however, that some people are just better than others and will always naturally look better due to good genetics. Although a generalisation, black people do seem to excel at good genetics when it comes to the aesthetics of muscle building so maybe Robby is lucky in that regard. Or maybe he, like many addicts before him, cant and wont admit that he uses due to social stigma and possibly he is in denial.

Jelisej - I do agree that hormone optimisation would be a much safer and better route to go down FWIW (although id never touch tamox!)

OD - Good point. But I guess i'm optimistic that if I live right and take care of my body inside and out then I might still be an active 80 year old. Sure, I wont bench what I can at 80 as I could at 30 but I reckon I could be respectable. And you should reconsider the moustache - they are back in fashion!

DJM - Thanks. Im always around lurking but dont get much time to post what with my job and work and all. Ive just torn a ligament in my calf though so im getting way more sofa hours now that id like though and I have to fill them with something.

JM1000 - Whilst the amount of damage you cause yourself on steroids is in part mediated by genetics (some people just have livers of steel whilst others have livers made of glass), the fact is that damage will occur nevertheless to some extent regardless of how gifted you are genetically speaking if you take them long enough and at high enough doses.

We are now at an age where more people than ever are using steroids. When I was a kid they were something only used by pro BBers and they were hard to get hold of. What the ideal male physique now resembling something out of a comic book more and availability no longer an issue thanks to the internet more people are turning to them. Unfortunately, few of them bother to do their research and many take frankly ludicrous doses (I read about some 160lb kid using over 1.5 grams of tren a week recently! Maybe it was Ippats!).

I mean, how many people reading this know about the deleterious effects of angiotensin II on the epithelial layer of your arteries. How many from that group know which steroids increase Angiotensin II levels? How many still know how to combat those raised Angiotensin II levels?

Or how about something more simple. How many people using gear have a home blood sugar tester and know what their blood sugar usually runs to on an average day. Would you know if you had increased insulin resistance? High glucose levels kill nerve cells, restrict blood supplies which leads to amputations and other horrible side effects. It's a serious thing but I'd wager few out there know or care to check on these things whilst using.

This is just a couple of small examples of the research that anyone taking gear should be doing and know all about before using steroids but the sad fact is that, aside from qualified medical professionals and those with an interest in medicine, virtually no one knows or attempts to do their homework.

The damage caused now is only going to show in decades from now and it's only going to get worse as more and more people turn to them for the ever elusive perfect physique which is always just one more cycle away.

[DJM]

DJM - Thanks. Im always around lurking but dont get much time to post what with my job and work and all. Ive just torn a ligament in my calf though so im getting way more sofa hours now that id like though and I have to fill them with something.

did that boat ever dock on your end hahaha

[Infamy]

did that boat ever dock on your end hahaha

Nearly!!

[DJM]

hahaha

[olddawg]

Your fkn harbour master over there really sucks!! lol

[Jelisej]

I agree with Infamy's last post, and I'll give my input (FWIW).
There is saying "Guns dont kill people- people with guns kill people"-same goes with AAS/PH's/hormones- every medicine is a poison and every poison is medicine, depending on dosage and circumstances, and AAS/PH's and hormones could be used for variety of conditions (and reasons), it just happens that for lot of people it ends up to be weapon of their own destruction.

Take wild animals- even if domesticized they will never become overweight, as they will eat as much as they need, no more no less.
Hormonal optimization is the same- take what you need and how much you need. To know what you need you need to observe symptoms and do some test, and how much you need you'll know by same principles.
Sometimes things can be fix by changing lifestyle, sometimes some basic supplements are needed, sometimes bit more complicated like "restart protocol", sometimes its HRT.
Important thing is to look at bigger picture- and not at just one segment which is the way most of people do.

[pman42]

This is a very, very interesting topic and one which I was going to post about one of these days. glad someone started this

i think there are some valid points made. a person will go back to a lower level of development once off the AAS. but some results may be semi-permanent: American Physiological Society > Anabolic Steroids Still Provide a Competitive Edge in Power Lifting Even Years After Doping Has Ended


there is no question that i am at a higher level of development than i would be without them. are the effects permanent? for me only time will tell.

as for the health effects, i believe the body is fairly adaptable and forgiving, but AAS are not as safe as some make them out to be. sure it's true that "there's worse things i could be doing" but you can really justify anything that way. even in prison the murderers are in a higher class than the child rapists. for my own case, i wish i had a baseline hormone panel before starting anything, but i am relatively certain that i had low testosterone before ever using PHs.

it's definitely true that PEDs can be addictive. i've been on cycle, planning out my next one or thinking, "i'll just stay on pheraplex for 3 months, what's the worse that can happen?" thankfully my logical head prevailed. you have to know yourself and have a certain level of maturity. an example is when i was younger i had a serious problem with alcohol and would drink every day, all day. once i saw how out of control it had become (with the help of some friends and family) i was able to step back and say, perhaps alcohol is not the drug for me. i'm not able to just have 1 beer, so now i don't drink. i don't whine about my disease or whatnot (not knocking people who do the AA thing, just that it;s not for me) i just don't drink because i know that i have control over not drinking but once i do drink all bets are off. same thing for AAS, if you spend all you money and time on drugs and the gym your life is probably unbalanced and you are pushing yourself to an early grave. but if you have the control to use a couple short cycles per year with adequate support and PCT then is it going to have a hugely detrimental effect? more than pounding back a case of beer every weekend like some guys? i'm not sure. somewhere there was a study (it might have been more of a sociological survey) that found AAS to be less detrimental than commonly abused drugs like nicotine and alcohol. but again, it's the individual. for me cigarettes are no big deal because i can smoke 2 when i drink too much coffee then say, "this is gross fuck this shit." but some will smoke until death.

my rambling point is that i still have not arrived at the definitive conclusion for myself. i hear the siren song of AAS calling, but mostly i can pacify it with natural training. for now at least

[Jelisej]

This is a very, very interesting topic and one which I was going to post about one of these days. glad someone started this
if you spend all you money and time on drugs and the gym your life is probably unbalanced and you are pushing yourself to an early grave. but if you have the control to use a couple short cycles per year with adequate support and PCT then is it going to have a hugely detrimental effect? more than pounding back a case of beer every weekend like some guys? i'm not sure. somewhere there was a study (it might have been more of a sociological survey) that found AAS to be less detrimental than commonly abused drugs like nicotine and alcohol. but again, it's the individual. for me cigarettes are no big deal because i can smoke 2 when i drink too much coffee then say, "this is gross fuck this shit." but some will smoke until death.

my rambling point is that i still have not arrived at the definitive conclusion for myself. i hear the siren song of AAS calling, but mostly i can pacify it with natural training. for now at least

Name of thread you started earlier this year: "Depressed as Fuck-- blood test results"

[Infamy]

Your fkn harbour master over there really sucks!! lol

Yeah, I think he may be Canadian...