AAS - What's the point?

[Infamy]

Pman, interesting article. I hadnt seen that before so thanks for sharing.

What is interesting though is that it was nucleus number which remained increased which although very useful for having the potential to gain more muscle and also helping with strength, it probably doesnt actually show up much physically and since aesthetics are the name of BBing it goes back to the look of the individual, post steroids, being smaller and fatter. I guess it is some comfort to know that I am probably stronger than I would have been had I never touched gear though.

You know, it's funny, ask anyone who has used gear for a number of years and then stopped or reduced their intake and they all say the same thing to someone who hasn't touched gear: "dont do it - you are better off without it". I think it is better to never have opened the Pandora's box that is steroids at all personally but you live and learn.

[Sperwer]

Well, my opinion is "no" there is no safe way to use AAS for muscle building purposes. Note the importance of the highlighted sentence as I do believe that whilst testosterone is clearly an AAS, TRT isn't particularly detrimental to male health if used at correct doses and monitored closely. Even then some men need to stop using TRT due to unpleasant side effects such as prostate hypertrophy, dyslipidemia, carpal tunnel syndrome from water retention, excess estrogen etc etc.
The fact is that when you take enough of substance x to build muscle - it's harmful. Id be happy to be proven wrong and if you can think of an example of any AAS which when taken at muscle building doses doesn't do that. Even testosterone (which is probably one of the safer steroids) at high doses needed to build muscle causes deleterious effects on the human body.

I would say theoretically, if not abused, then possibly the resultant damage may be recoverable given sufficient time off between cycles. But the fact remains, the cycle will cause damage. The amount and severity of the damage is dependant on many factors - amount taken, steroid used, length of time on, age, genetics and diet to name but a few.

in practice, I don't think any bodybuilders have the ability to limit themselves to say, one short cycle every 5 years or something though so I think that question is a redundant one due to human mental frailties.

...
I mean, how many people reading this know about the deleterious effects of angiotensin II on the epithelial layer of your arteries. How many from that group know which steroids increase Angiotensin II levels? How many still know how to combat those raised Angiotensin II levels?

Or how about something more simple. How many people using gear have a home blood sugar tester and know what their blood sugar usually runs to on an average day. Would you know if you had increased insulin resistance? High glucose levels kill nerve cells, restrict blood supplies which leads to amputations and other horrible side effects. It's a serious thing but I'd wager few out there know or care to check on these things whilst using.

This is just a couple of small examples of the research that anyone taking gear should be doing and know all about before using steroids but the sad fact is that, aside from qualified medical professionals and those with an interest in medicine, virtually no one knows or attempts to do their homework.

...

I understand the qualification and its importance, but what falls into the category of "muscle building purposes".

Obviously, I guess, the creation of the sort of escaped-Jurassic Park-attraction type of physique characteristic of contemporary professional body builders and wannabes. (And while I agree that the number of the latter has increased - well, so has the population. Has there been a real % increase. Moreover, I'm prepared to believe that there has been a small % increase, but I also think it is likely minor in relation to the number of people who have taken up the sport and that it is pretty much limited to Euro-America. There are serious gear head here in Asia, but their numbers are really small, and the ideal male physique is NOT the Bodybuilder blow-up doll - a six pack is de rigeur but the overall body profile is a very lean one, barely fitness model by Euro-American standards.)

But what about more modest endeavors than emulating the pros. I, e.g., have no interest in looking like those guys, or even most of their predecessors from the past 50 years since Arnold became the poster boy for size over form (with the possible exceptions of Frank Zane and Robby Robinson, neither of whom, I am very much aware, I'm ever going to come close to - a fact with which I'm quite comfortable). Nevertheless, I have wanted and continue to desire to improve both the size and especially the definition of my musculature (and to improve my flexibility and mobility - which is something of a combination rescue mission/rear-guard action given my (unrelated) injury history, past failures to deal effectively with the results and my age). In that pursuit, I've replaced about 50 pounds of fat with 35 pounds of muscle over the past six years; various muscles are now measurably larger; and I've got a fair amount of definition, including in the legs (although they are lagging in this regard). In the process of doing so I've done a 4-5 PH cycles, and am now doing a parabolan run, my first ever AAS. Constantly improving nutrition and ever more consistent training have been the essential foundations of my progress, and I've made really dramatic strides recently as a result of working with a coach who has rigorously corrected my form and drilled me in doing it right. But it's also clear that the PH cycles contributed and that the Tren run is having an impact now. And while it's also the case that substantial amounts of the gains from each cycle rather quickly dissipated, because of imo the post-cycle psychological and training let-up as much if not more the removal of the anabolic promoter, there has been a noticeable - rather dramatic, I'd say - preservation and cumulation of the gains. Moreover, just as there are countermeasures for the potential side effects of TRT, there are on-cycle and post-cycle therapies for the sides associated with PHs and AAS, the latter of which in my admittedly picayune experience are dramatically fewer and less intense than those associated w/ PHs. True, as you say, not everyone adequately understands and appreciates even the known physical risks, including the overwhelming majority of ostensibly qualified medical practitioners who are no less likely to simply parrot the the pet phrases of the anti-steroid inquisitors than the average suburban mom of a jacked up high school football player. But if that is the driving criterion for whether to use or not, and especially for government regulation, then in the latter case there are far larger and individually and especially socially more important targets for regulation (alcohol anyone?)see the Dutch Institute of Health study, Adverse health effects of anabolic–androgenic steroids, at http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.bbr.2011.03.031: "The dependence liability of AAS is very low, and withdrawal effects are relatively mild. Based on the scores for acute and chronic adverse health effects, the prevalence of use, social harm and criminality, AAS were ranked among 19 illicit drugs as a group of drugs with a relatively low harm"), and we are well into a nanny state that I prefer to have as little to do with as possible (even at soem significant 'cost" to myself).

[Fat Bill Dwyer]

I agree with Infamy's last post, and I'll give my input (FWIW).
There is saying "Guns dont kill people- people with guns kill people"-same goes with AAS/PH's/hormones- every medicine is a poison and every poison is medicine, depending on dosage and circumstances, and AAS/PH's and hormones could be used for variety of conditions (and reasons)

^Yup.

I would also like to add that if you are healthy, you will not become more healthy, and it is quite likely you will become less healthy by taking a bunch of medicine. If you don't believe this to be true you're lying to yourself.

However people regularly sacrafice health for a variety of trivial things, so who really cares if you do it for the sake of a certain aesthetic?

[olddawg]

My struggle is with the balance of longevity vs quality of life. why do we take any meds, or even make ourselves look presentable for that matter. currently, and I say that as my view changes over the years, i believe that if i lived to 90, i would be simply waking up, reading the paper, making a sandwich, maybe taking a walk and then watching tv until i do it all again the next day. If one could have the same quality of life until 90, and not only that but most importantly have life with a purpose, then it'd be great to live that long. I guess I may either have experienced too much or maybe i'm just getting tired but it's tough for me to believe that i'll be productive into my latter years. Living longer simply to follow a routine wouldn't interest me, i would rather burn the motor our earlier in the race and lead for the whole race while i was racing. I don't know, maybe that's not a healthy viewpoint, but feeling good, looking good, and doing something good are all focuses for me until my body disintegrates upon re-entering the atmosphere. I suppose because I have already expressed diabetes, and thyroid issues, i expect other things to give in earlier rather than later. Don't know. I shave my face not for myself, but others, shave my eyebrows for the same reason lol (trim), wear nice clothes, act in a pleasant manner for others 'cause god I prefer just being honest lol, so to me aas are just another beautifying agent. I've accepted death and am ready at any time. it's not in my control, and what I do know is that I only have today because I woke up. Tomorrow may not come for me, so I won't gamble on it.

[Jelisej]

OD, I share your view. Tha fact is that adding hormones add to quality of life in every aspect but it shortens life span. This fact is what made me start my own self-medication journey. I would rather live shorter but more quality life.
Saying that- AAS dont really improve quality of life permanently.

Deep down- I'm an alchemist, I tried loads of stuff and nothing feels better than when you tune your hormones- that sense of wellbeing, its like you're on fucking cocaine. Tremendous. Fantastic. Fan-dabby-dozy-tastic.

[olddawg]

never tried coke, but like an orgasm i guess right? lol It's just that I see healthy people dying in their 30's, 40's 50's, runners, clean eaters, etc....For me, I really think Infamy's question is deeper than just damaging your body and keeping gains (not to say that this is all you guys are talking about) but it is about engineering your journey so to speak, going full out while you are in the race, taking no prisoners and enjoying a fulfilling time on the planet. I personally believe that there is no afterlife as humans try to explain it either through physics (energy) or spirit. Once you die, bye bye.

[Jelisej]

never tried coke, but like an orgasm i guess right? lol It's just that I see healthy people dying in their 30's, 40's 50's, runners, clean eaters, etc....For me, I really think Infamy's question is deeper than just damaging your body and keeping gains (not to say that this is all you guys are talking about) but it is about engineering your journey so to speak, going full out while you are in the race, taking no prisoners and enjoying a fulfilling time on the planet. I personally believe that there is no afterlife as humans try to explain it either through physics (energy) or spirit. Once you die, bye bye.

I concur.

[Sperwer]

Life is a risk; a good life is a calculated disk.


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[Infamy]

I just wanted to point out that the purpose of my question wasn't to vilify anyone taking AAS, rather to question whether they were worthwhile when benefit is compared to risk.

I fully believe in freedom of choice and if you decide that steroids are right for you and what you want from life then I respect that completely and wouldnt want any legislation stopping you from living in that way. On the flip side, I also would have no sympathy for someone who, when exercising that freedom, messed themselves up due to misuse or abuse. You pays your money and you takes your choice!

The question of addiction of AAS is an interesting one. I agree that chemically, they aren't particularly addictive. Cocaine, heroin and even alcohol have more of a chemical addiction that gear. But I do believe strongly that the possess a very high potential for mental addiction. What I mean by this is you take them and you look better. You stop them and you don't look as good as you did whilst taking them so you take some more. Time between cycles shortens until cycles turn into one big continuous cycle and then one day you realise that you have such a mental addiction to them that you really would suffer mentally were you to stop as you perceive your body to get fatter and smaller without them.

A quick glance through any forum shows that there is a worrying amount of younger guys who have no self control over their use. Im sure all of use know some internet buddy or real life one who uses more than you could really think is sensible. Ippats is a good example here!

After a number of years searching for that elusive perfect body though I have come to accept that I simply cant look good 24-7-365 without taking something 365 days a year but that the detriment to my health simply and life by doing this simply isnt worth it for me. Many reading this may disagree and think it is worth it.

I also think that for some people maybe there is an argument for recreational use if it can be controlled and monitored. I think this may be what OD is getting at and maybe Sperwer. I find it hard to argue against it when drinking alcohol or having that takeaway is bad for you but you do it because you feel better for doing it (myself included). The damage you cause is repairable if you dont abuse the substance like alcohol or takeaways and in the same way if you can limit your cycle to say something moderate once every few years and plenty of time off between cycles then some may argue there is little difference between the two. The difficulty is having the will power to resist cycling more often and that is the crux.

I need to make it clear that my position hasn't changed, if you take AAS at muscle building doses then you are going to do yourself harm. For the individual though they may consider that harm acceptable when compared to other pursuits that others may do which also cause them harm (e.g. drinking or recreational cocaine use etc).

I wouldn't totally rule out using AAS again if there was a particular purpose for looking better or being bigger e.g. my wedding day. In those cases I think the damage may be justified and I may be able to recover sufficiently but I think my days of using just to get bigger or stronger for no particular reason than because I want to are gone.

I hope that my question here might lead some of you to question your use of AAS personally and whether your use is under your control or whether your use controls you.

[Fat Bill Dwyer]

I hope that my question here might lead some of you to question your use of AAS personally and whether your use is under your control or whether your use controls you.

You're preaching the WORD now brother, and I got to say I feel a bit convicted. Not a gear guy myself, but I've ran a few "Dietary Supplements."

IMHO the guys who are most at risk are the guys who are already so deeply into it that they will not be honest with themselves.

Once you are so wrapped up in it that it becomes part of your identity e.g. "I am the strong/sexy guy at work" or "I am the smart/experienced gear guy on the internet" it is very difficult to let go of. That you are able to do this speaks volumes about your discipline and honesty.

I know that I'm NEVER willingly going back to being small. It is too awesome to be able to influence other people's behavior just because of the way I look. It is too awesome to be default IN the club, than default out. I like being the victim of sexual harrassment from girls much younger than me.

Of course I will rationalize this by saying I've never run illegal AAS, and that I only do two 6-8 weekers a year, and that I can control it, but obviously eventually I'll want to get bigger and stronger.

You know what? Fuck all of ^that. I'm fine, and I refuse to think about it again until I'm snorting Superdrol off of Ippy's semi-erect penis.