"sigh"...here we go again

[Infamy]

Curious, to play devils advocate, obviously those guys are idiots and confusing prolactin with progesterone because tren is a progestin. But it's also true that progestins cause more prolactin issues than say, test.

Why would I end up with lactating nipples after my cycle of test, even when I was already back on an AI and serm, and had no improvement (except on masteron which i didnt want to stay on due to suppression) until adding pramipexole?

Progesterone doesn't raise prolactin but high estrogen can. If I remember rightly your estrogen had gotten too high (otherwise you wouldn't have had gyno) and so you prolactin was probably elevated too. If you were constantly checking for gyno and messing with your nipples that just makes it a whole load worse. Not saying you we're messing with them but if you were.

Tren is a progestin and that means it has good affinity for the progesterone receptor. Progesterone role in gyno is to enhance estrogens effect on breast tissue growth and lowering prolactin will do nothing to stop progesterone in doing this. Lowering estrogen on the other hand will as progesterone will not grow breast tissue in isolation.

Even if you agree with none of the above (feel free to double check my facts by the way I won't be offended), then you would agree that caber only lowers prolactin and does not lower estrogen or block the effects of progersteone I assume? If so then you will see that all you are doing by taking something to lower prolactin is to treat the symptom and not the cause (which in this case is out if control estrogen enhanced by progesterone). So again we come back to my point that the best and only really way to deal with tren is deal with estrogen either by an AI a serm or both as it is impractical to stop the progesterone effects from tren unless we want the horrible sides of mifepristone.

[weekend]

haha, i agree with most of what you said. but quickly after gyno flared, i got on adex at 1 mg a day and ralox at ~100 a day.. nothing happened but libido dropped quick.

maybe you're right about gyno being agitated by high estro levels... but i then moved to letro asap and still no improvement except for when on masteron (which i've read can downregulate prolactin), and then got even more low estro sides.

still, with no improvement i decided to use prami and within days sensitivity and size had reduced, and continue to do so now at a dose of .5 mg daily. why would the gyno still respond to nothing but prami even after estro was totally tanked?

[Infamy]

haha, i agree with most of what you said. but quickly after gyno flared, i got on adex at 1 mg a day and ralox at ~100 a day.. nothing happened but libido dropped quick.

maybe you're right about gyno being agitated by high estro levels... but i then moved to letro asap and still no improvement except for when on masteron (which i've read can downregulate prolactin), and then got even more low estro sides.

still, with no improvement i decided to use prami and within days sensitivity and size had reduced, and continue to do so now at a dose of .5 mg daily. why would the gyno still respond to nothing but prami even after estro was totally tanked?

I think you are talking about something different here. I've been discussing gyno prevention and you are talking about gyno reversal. For the latter a dopamine agonist along with an ai and Serm may be needed if prolactin has been elevated. For the former, you don't need to lower prolactin if its not elevated and you are taking the necessary precautions to stop it being elevated.

In your specific case, it's difficult to know exactly what went on without bloodwork but I would speculate that you probably let your estrogen get rampantly high for too long. Breast tissue started to grow and the high estrogen elevated prolactin possibly combined with messing with your nipples checking for gyno (it can be a vicious circle!) therefore you needed an AI and serm to reduce and block the estrogen but also something to bring the prolactin back in line.

[Infamy]

By the way, if your Letro and raloxifene wasn't pharma, there is also the possibility it was bunk.

And as far as I'm aware masteron has no effect on prolactin and less impact on estrogen than most people give it credit for.

[olddawg]

I'll post something related, maybe hector can even benefit from it. I've done some low test, mast and low tren ace cycles, short ones cause I get lumps and pre gyno symptoms. Ace is at only 50mg eod, 125 mast eod and test e 200/week. I've kept the times on the tren down to a few weeks as I can't get on top of the sore titty syndrome so I will do 3 weeks on, 4 off, for a period of maybe 15-20 weeks or so and then go to trt levels. So I tried 3 different kinds of letro, two with no success and no joint stiffness, but the third was working for sure as it dried me right out, very noticeable in the joints. However, even at 2.5 letro ed I couldn't prevent the pre-gyno from showing up, nor could I get it to subside. Various times I tried different things, caber, aromasin combine with the letro, and wasn't able to get the gyno to budge, only thing that would work was to come off the tren for a month, lump shrinks and all other symptoms disappear. Only think I've never tired was the prami, or I know a guy who swears by nolva for the tren gyno, but never tried either. So a low dose tren and certainly low estrogen and still symptoms for me. Enough to jump off the tren train as soon as I use up all that's left.

[Infamy]

Out of interest od how much hcg do you use (if any).

I've had gyno too from every tren run. No leaking nipples and no elevation in prolactin. Letro helps but can't stop it which makes me wonder whether tren uses another mechanism to create estrogen aside from the aromatise enzyme (eg fat-> estrone -> estradiol). I know tren can increase estrogen solo as cattle studies have shown it so I'm guessing that may be the mechanism it uses. If that is the case the only real way to stop the gyno is a SERM whilst using tren.

I also wonder whether excessive hcg use might contribute too.

[O_RYAN_007]

Out of interest od how much hcg do you use (if any).

I've had gyno too from every tren run. No leaking nipples and no elevation in prolactin. Letro helps but can't stop it which makes me wonder whether tren uses another mechanism to create estrogen aside from the aromatise enzyme (eg fat-> estrone -> estradiol). I know tren can increase estrogen solo as cattle studies have shown it so I'm guessing that may be the mechanism it uses. If that is the case the only real way to stop the gyno is a SERM whilst using tren.

I also wonder whether excessive hcg use might contribute too.

So something like ralox aromosin combo, or do you think the aromosin wouldn't be strong enough?

[olddawg]

no, no hcg use at all. so maybe some clomid when I can get my hands on some then to see if it helps, I had no leaky nipples either

[Infamy]

To o-Ryan

Personally I don't think it would be but others disagree. I don't like the way it lowers shbg which can exacerbate estrogen problems.

If you don't want letro then I'd rather use arimidex.

As I said though I've speculated a lot here so I couldn't pretend that the above is definitely how tren raises estrogen.

The only thing we can be sure of is that a SERM like ralox will prevent gyno but care would need to be taken after the cycle as you would need to run it right through pct with your pct SERM (like clomid) and pct ai otherwise if you stop it as soon as your cycle finishes all that estrogen is still in your system but now it is able to give you gyno as the estrogen receptors in the breast become free.

[Infamy]

no, no hcg use at all. so maybe some clomid when I can get my hands on some then to see if it helps, I had no leaky nipples either

Interesting so it doesn't look like tren gyno was caused by hcg which only really leaves tren itself is capable of raising estrogen independent of the aromatise enzyme

I'd use ralox rather than clomid as its better at the breast than clomid. Nolva would be another choice but I hate that particular garbage SERM so I would use it.