19-nor dhea (mg) ?

[Freepressright]

And according to Seth Roberts Anabolic Pharmacology:

"Like the other DHEA derivatives, norDHEA would be useful in a transdermal application since the enzymes needed for the conversions to more powerful metabolites are concentrated in the skin and absorption through the skin using a good transdermal delivery cream could allow for 5-10x higher absorption than oral."

You'll find very few reviewers dogging transdermal prohormones. Dermacrine is still around today because it's a solid product and it works. Original 1-T was successful, as was 1-T Tren. I also found AndroEnhance to be an effective product, as did others.

And we can't forget about Patrick Arnold's E-spray when it was out. I know a couple of people who used it and felt that it was as good as AndroHard for them. This might not be the best place to dog transdermals. A lot of us here have used them and like them quite a bit.

Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you with AMS and don't you sell sublingual RDe Chrome tabs and then use esters in the Forerunner products? I use your products and like them, but it explains a lot about why you'd dog transdermals when you have a dog in the fight.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I will be using some of your products in an upcoming run. I have my 4ad already and have one bottle of 1-andro at home and hope to order another one by the end of the week. No disrespect intended in this discussion.

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[Right Hook]

I've known a few in the chemistry end of things who would disagree with you, one being Jake from Antaeus labs.

And with respect to DSHEA guidance, no one really knows what a "clear and distinct" violation is because there is no consistency in enforcement. If the FDA gets a hard on for you, no matter what you're selling, you're fucked.

I think you are misinterpreting what Jake may be telling you. There is a big difference between delivering something like dienelone vs. 19-norDHEA. Dienelone is an active steroid.

Supplements are clearly defined to be administered orally by the FDA. There isn't many ways to misinterpret that. Just because they don't always choose to enforce it doesn't mean it's smart to produce transdermals. They can also act retroactively.

[Freepressright]

Again, I'd refer you back to Seth Roberts' Anabolic Pharmacology, and also allude to some of the products Eric at Primordial developed and used. It comes down to the androgenic skin enzymes which are efficient in aiding conversion to the target hormones. Jake and I actually had a very lengthy conversation about how good of a candidate 19norDHEA would be for a topical. He even offered to make me a batch if I could score the raws.

The original 1-T was 1-DHEA/5-DHEA/pregenolone and it delivered consistently good results. Many of us made solid gains. My first six week run I put on 10 pounds and retained eight of it. And I had none of the 1-DHEA lethargy or loss of libido.

Any time I've taken the oral 1-DHEA route, the lethargy has been almost flu like. I tried 1-T Liqua-Vade and it was nothing at all like the topical. People said the same thing about the oral Dermacrine versus the topical.

Lots of us like topicals. And we like them because they've worked for us.

[Right Hook]

And according to Seth Roberts Anabolic Pharmacology:

"Like the other DHEA derivatives, norDHEA would be useful in a transdermal application since the enzymes needed for the conversions to more powerful metabolites are concentrated in the skin and absorption through the skin using a good transdermal delivery cream could allow for 5-10x higher absorption than oral."

You'll find very few reviewers dogging transdermal prohormones. Dermacrine is still around today because it's a solid product and it works. Original 1-T was successful, as was 1-T Tren. I also found AndroEnhance to be an effective product, as did others.

And we can't forget about Patrick Arnold's E-spray when it was out. I know a couple of people who used it and felt that it was as good as AndroHard for them. This might not be the best place to dog transdermals. A lot of us here have used them and like them quite a bit.

Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you with AMS and don't you sell sublingual RDe Chrome tabs and then use esters in the Forerunner products? I use your products and like them, but it explains a lot about why you'd dog transdermals when you have a dog in the fight.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I will be using some of your products in an upcoming run. I have my 4ad already and have one bottle of 1-andro at home and hope to order another one by the end of the week. No disrespect intended in this discussion.

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I agree with Seth. Transdermals are better than a simple oral capsule. He's not comparing transdermals vs. sublingual or lymphatic delivery.

Dermacrine is not a prohormone. Sulfotransferase enzymes may be irrelevant to whatever its delivering. context is important here.

I'm not dogging transdermals. Nobody even sells them afaik. I'm trying to help you understand why nobody makes transdermal 19-norDHEA.

AMS/FRL could make transdermals. I've spent a significant amount of time researching ways to make them as effective as the other products, but there isn't a way, and thus doing it would simply be a risky venture with a less effective product.

[Freepressright]

Dermacrine is not a prohormone. Sulfotransferase enzymes may be irrelevant to whatever its delivering. context is important here.

Dermacrine IS a prohormone, albeit a really mild one, but a prohormone nonetheless.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 5-DHEA is a steroid hormone with the propensity to undergo a two-step conversion to testosterone, is it not? It has a built in AI (trans-resveratrol) and includes 7,8 benzo.

And I'd also ask, do you or any of your employees have any experience creating and using 19norDHEA as a transdermal? Why dog it when you guys could actually try it?

[Right Hook]

Dermacrine IS a prohormone, albeit a really mild one, but a prohormone nonetheless.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 5-DHEA is a steroid hormone with the propensity to undergo a two-step conversion to testosterone, is it not? It has a built in AI (trans-resveratrol) and includes 7,8 benzo.

And I'd also ask, do you or any of your employees have any experience creating and using 19norDHEA as a transdermal? Why dog it when you guys could actually try it?

Then the same applies to Dermacrine. But again Dermacrine is going to be better than oral DHEA, but as good as a sublingual or lymphatic DHEA? Likely no. DHEA in it of itself is quite a bit different as the body seems to reserve DHEA sulfate as sort of a reservoir to pull from when needed.

We have had virtually every prototype and then some come through us to try out. We have been selling this stuff longer than anyone. A new chemist was hired recently to re-develop some of the FRL formulas, maybe they will come up with something better than all of them.

[Freepressright]

But the most important point that's getting lost in this debate is delivery versus conversion. That hormonal conversion is what's important, and as Seth Roberts documents, "Like the other DHEA derivatives, norDHEA would be useful in a transdermal application since the enzymes needed for the conversions to more powerful metabolites are concentrated in the skin and absorption through the skin using a good transdermal delivery cream could allow for 5-10x higher absorption than oral."

Again, we have some market-based, real-world experience with PP's successes in transdermals. The products worked. I'm can't make that up.

[Right Hook]

But the most important point that's getting lost in this debate is delivery versus conversion. That hormonal conversion is what's important, and as Seth Roberts documents, "Like the other DHEA derivatives, norDHEA would be useful in a transdermal application since the enzymes needed for the conversions to more powerful metabolites are concentrated in the skin and absorption through the skin using a good transdermal delivery cream could allow for 5-10x higher absorption than oral."

Again, we have some market-based, real-world experience with PP's successes in transdermals. The products worked. I'm can't make that up.

Enzymes needed for deactivation of the hormone are also heavily concentrated in the skin. That was my original point.

[Freepressright]

Theoretically, that might be the case. But the anecdotal evidence, which is out there in large quantities, suggests otherwise for most folks. The majority of transdermal non-methylated prohormone users (former 1-T, Dermacrine, AndroEnhance) users report favorable outcomes.

Tell you what, you guys do up a batch of topical DHEA isomers and I'll be your guinea pig.

[nate3993]

yeah. lol to someone saying that topical plain DHEA wasn't as effective as oral. the skin enzymes yielded much higher conversions to the androgenic hormones than oral. with oral plain DHEA you're prolly gonna just get more estrogen than anything else. at least i know that high dose oral dhea gives you a large estrogen increase.

and just so you know, i'm only talking about plain DHEA. not 1-dhea. not 5-dhea. just plain, jane DHEA.