AndroHard versus EPI ANDRO RX @ GYMnTONIC.com

[markam]

So you're saying 'in laymans terms; running Saw Palmetto won't weaken the effect of Androhard or similar. This is of particular importance to me as Saw P really helps re peeing at night. I take it all year round.

[Cdsnuts]

I thought:

High DHT + Low Estrogen reverses BPH
Low DHT + Any Estrogen levels stops BPH (doesn't reverse it)
High DHT + High Estrogen increases BPH

I would tend to agree with this. Although I'm on the fence about Low DHT + Any estrogen, as if DHT was low antagonization of Estro wouldn't be balanced correctly, which could lead to issues. We all know that we need some Estrogen for things to work correctly, but that is some estrogen in a correctly balanced hormonal environment. I don't have facts to back that last statement up, just my opinion based on my studies.

[Cdsnuts]

If they complain of prostate issues AFTER running DHT compounds rather than during, it makes perfect sense. If you stop running a dht compound, your androgen levels are low. At this point, even a normal amount of estrogen can/will aggravate the prostate. DHT does not lower estrogen, it simply is an androgen. With high androgen and moderate estrogen in the body, the androgen's effects simply "overpowers" the estrogen. But it doesnt eliminate or lower the estrogen. Go off the androgen and the rebound effect will occur if you do not have an AI/serm in place. Think of it in terms of two people on each end of a tug o war rope... and suddenly one guy lets go.

This^^^^^^^^^yes. What I should have said was DURING the cycle, not after. That is what I don't understand. Based on all of this, how could someone have prostate issues during the DHT cycle.

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So you're saying 'in laymans terms; running Saw Palmetto won't weaken the effect of Androhard or similar. This is of particular importance to me as Saw P really helps re peeing at night. I take it all year round.

That is correct. It is simply past the point of being able to do anything to exogenous substances. UNLESS there is some other mechanism of action that is unknown or undocumented. (with saw palmetto) You are your best guinea pig.

[ctAL]

If they complain of prostate issues AFTER running DHT compounds rather than during, it makes perfect sense. If you stop running a dht compound, your androgen levels are low. At this point, even a normal amount of estrogen can/will aggravate the prostate. DHT does not lower estrogen, it simply is an androgen. With high androgen and moderate estrogen in the body, the androgen's effects simply "overpowers" the estrogen. But it doesnt eliminate or lower the estrogen. Go off the androgen and the rebound effect will occur if you do not have an AI/serm in place. Think of it in terms of two people on each end of a tug o war rope... and suddenly one guy lets go.

so with that being said..............even a compond like this, solo.......not even stacked to be safe run a serm like clomid in PCT

[burlyman30]

so with that being said..............even a compond like this, solo.......not even stacked to be safe run a serm like clomid in PCT

I'd say yes "to be safe", though how you feel and what blood work tells you are excellent guides in what to do. Some guys have no prostate or other issues and only experience very mild testosterone suppression which comes back without a PCT after dht compounds.

[ctAL]

sounds good

[WesleyInman]

In all fairness, I was expecting to hear disagreement..not calling me or anyone out, we are all a close knit group, so I'd rather think of it as a friendly discussion to try and figure out what the deal is...no one here, myself included can say for a 100% fact what it is..we can simply give our beliefs and experiences as to why

For one, this is so complex of an understanding and for 2 there is such a lack of research in the area, that likely if and when it is determined it will be trial and error by a bunch of bodybuilders LOL..which is the way it often has happened.


So why do I believe based on the above information that Saw Palmetto will reduce the effectiveness of EPI ANDRO compounds?

Saw Palmetto contains fatty acids that can inhibit the spread of testosterone. This can deter testosterone from converting into DHT. Saw Palmetto hinders the binding of DHT to androgen receptors

DHT also binds to other receptors, for example at the hair follicle, and this is why it is theorized to weaken, etc..

So in lamens terms..lets say your body is getting DHT from a shot, a pill, a transdermal, or your body was making it on its own. The structure, even if Epi andro is (5-AR) reduced (which I cannot say is true or not) is still considered a DHT molecule..no matter when where or how it happens.

If the theory that it binds to a receptor is true, then when saw palmetto or finasteride enter the system, they also work by adhering to dht that is present at the receptor and eliminating it.

The issue with people having prostate issues while on DHT, again, to me I would theorize that it is in men with existing issues, enlargement or past abuses of AAS...and it's simply becoming inflammed once again, and/or estrogen levels being high are also part of the mix.

None of the younger guys or new guys to AAS/PH have once told me of weak urine streams/sexual issues, etc..but 75% or more of the guys who have abused AAS for years, or PH's, or that were even on long term HRT have told me of some of these issues.

It is very very difficult to make full sense of.

As another example, look at Epistane (Havoc)...in theory that is used to treat and prevent gyno in normal males, or in males using AAS, etc..Now in theory, it is said that it cannot convert, etc, etc..but I can tell you for a fact I have run probably 20+ guys on Epistane and maybe in 25-50% they had issues with pregyno etc...

What I will say is that this is certainly a great topic to discuss with all of you, since we can respectfully go back and forth..

If we were anywhere else, people would be rude, name calling, etc, etc...

What I will say is my theory,is my "belief" of how the mechanism works from my understanding of DHT and it's application. I can't say for a fact I am 100% correct But I absolutely believe that saw palmetto and finasteride weaken the effects of the Epiandro compound aka stanolone aka DHT. To what extent?? I cannot say.

[Freepressright]

That question has lots of answers depending on the individual. Just know, if your taking these compounds, your 5ar inhibitor isn't going to do anything. It's a matter of "having your cake and eating it too." Typically it just can't be done.

But then their is evidence that prostate swelling is actually caused by too much Estrogen, which would make sense, seeing as the prostate is the male equivalent of the uterus. When the human "template" is created, the sex organs are just non-descript masses. These masses are turned into the target organ by hormone signaling. When estro hits this mass (prostate/uterus), well, it turns into a uterus, whereas when test/DHT hits, it turns into the prostate. When estrogen rises in a man, the prostate is just doing what the hormones tell it to do, which is swell up, like a uterus, which is much, much bigger then the prostate. Even though it's been a prostate for the mans whole life, it's been that way because of his hormones.

I've never dealt with BPH, but I know alot of guys on the propecia site have had it bad because of out of control E. Most if not all of these guys got it under control by lowering their Estro load.

But, like most things concerning hormones, you need an accurate picture of what yours are doing at any given point to make a determination as to the correct course of action.

Still though, this doesn't explain why people complain of prostate issues after running DHT cycles? From my research, I suspect is has less to do with the DHT and more to do with another cause. That cause, I just don't know what it is. But seeing as DHT antagonizes Estrogen, I can't see how DHT in and of itself could cause prostate issues, rather then fix any issues someone may have had.

I have never felt comfortable fucking with saw palmetto. If it works in a similar fashion to Propecia, then to me, that's enough to scare me away.

[ctAL]

ok my last time saying it

love this forum

[Cdsnuts]

In all fairness, I was expecting to hear disagreement..not calling me or anyone out, we are all a close knit group, so I'd rather think of it as a friendly discussion to try and figure out what the deal is...no one here, myself included can say for a 100% fact what it is..we can simply give our beliefs and experiences as to why

Yeah Wes.....no doubt. That's why I said what I said. My point was I didn't want to come across like I was trying to call anyone out. I was simply disagreeing. Poor choice of words on my part. i've got too much respect for everyone here.