Gyno questions

[pman42]

hello guys. After a recent 5 month run on raloxifene (with the last 2 months on letro as well) gyno has shrunk but still not gone. I believe it flared up when I was taking Trazodone relatively long-term for sleep, as that drug increases prolactin. near the end of the 5 months it seemed like raloxifene was losing its magic, that the tissue wasn't shrinking anymore. I have read that it can lose its efficacy for breast cancer as the cells become immune to it, so maybe that can happen for gyno as well. Since being off the ralox, I am kind of vacillating on whether it is getting worse.

My questions are these: in the absence of a stimuli, i.e. high estrogen, high prolactin, or aromatizing steroid (none of which are present in my system at the present) would gyno continue to grow? 3 bloodwork panels have revealed estrogen under 100 pmol/L, which translates into 27.25 pg/mL. those bloods were before letro or raloxifene, so my baseline estrogen is not elevated. and, how do I go about further reducing it? Since I believe it was prolactin-caused, would not prolactin reduction make sense? Weekend is big on prami, but I've heard bromocriptine as well can reduce prolactin. I have been taking 5g of mucuna powder, which according to 1 study reduces prolactin. but i don't want to muck up my results for an upcoming blood test. I am going to work with an endo on my hormones, as my test levels have consistently come back low.

I don't want to do any more suppressive compounds, right now or possibly ever again, so I am thinking of asking the endo for toremifene, seeing if it affects my hormones positively, then jumping on AndroHard or proviron. PCT would be toremifene. my understanding is that once gyno is 'ingrained' it can be hard to get rid of, but AH definitely helped it before.

anyway, any help you can provide would be appreciated.

[burlyman30]

Being that your testosterone is consistently testing low, your test:estro balance may be an issue for reoccurrence. I am now on a maintenance program of ralox/anastrozole because of my issues with aromatization on even low dosed TRT. I am not a fan of running a SERM without at least a low dose of an AI. The body may not recognize the estro in the system, yet it can continue to rise and may affect other things negatively without some amount of an estro lowering compound.

As far as your situation, AH may help shift that androgen/estrogen balance enough to improve the gyno. Toremifene is a good pct... good luck getting your doc to prescribe it, as most are familiar with only clomid or nolva. But wish you luck in that conversation... try to get an AI too.

[weekend]

I know if I was only taking masteron, prami and ralox my gyno plus be gone by the end of a full cycle. But it's shrinking slower on those plus test and tren.

You shouldn't use bromo though, use caber if afraid of prami sides.

A lot of things can make gyno worse. Essential oils of lavender and tea tree, dairy, alcohol, weed, fried food...

[pman42]

What I don't understand is why the gyno didn't respond to 2.5mg letro ED, and even seemed to get worse. once i dropped the letro and just took the raloxifene, it improved again. possibly because it's prolactin gyno, i don't know.

[weekend]

It's because it was prolactin and the letro also may have been bunk. Besides, your estrogen is always in range!

[Jelisej]

Burly hit nail on its head: "Being that your testosterone is consistently testing low, your test:estro balance may be an issue for reocurrence."

No offence bro' but it seems that you're heading towards TRT, or better said HRT.

If hormones are out of balance there is lot of aromatisation, for example if cortisol is either too low or too high, there will be lot of aromatisation, same can happen with thyroid etc... But it is estrogen that causes gyno, not prolactin.

I've got a feeling that SERMS are not really increasing your testosterone levels, very likely you had low testosterone even before AAS usage, and in young men libido is not so affected by low test. especially if other hormones are tuned and there is reasonable amount of free test.

Stop messing', get off all supplements to get "clean" bloodwork otherwise you're end up chasing your own tail like so many guys do.
Once on TRT gyno will be gone.

Gynaecomastia | Doctor | Patient.co.uk

[Jelisej]

It's because it was prolactin and the letro also may have been bunk. Besides, your estrogen is always in range!

But we dont know his SHBG (or even progesterone levels). Estrogen same as testosterone can be bound to SHBG or free, so one can have good reading but still have low or high free E2 (and symptoms of low or high E2)
Even with cortisol is similar if one has high transcortin (corticosteroid-binding globulin) levels even with good cortisol levels can symptoms of low levels....
Same goes for most of other hormones....

In reality when we get bloodworks for lets say freeT3 we know how much of it is in blood, but we dont know what is it really dong is it being carried into cells etc.... Thats why its always important to do extensive bloods- then we can at least guess...

[weekend]

I guess I was just basing this on my case in which nothing really worked except more androgens or prolactin control drugs.

[Jelisej]

I guess I was just basing this on my case in which nothing really worked except more androgens or prolactin control drugs.

More androgens would certainly work, prolactin is a bitch and gives lot of symptoms and reducing it does make lot of uneasiness/pain go away (but it will not get ridd of "lumps")- so what you have done is quite right and it would work for him as well, but it would not sort out with underlying issue (low testosterone), and I feel its better to deal with underlying cause than trying to find scapegoat (prolactin).
So, IMO extensive bloodwork is the right thing to do and then we'll see what needs to be addressed.

[pman42]

Jeli, I think that SHBG was measured on previous bloodwork. it is definitely being tested on my upcoming draw. I will check on the previous ones and report back.

I really don't want to do TRT. It seems like, long-term, it would just compound the problem of low testosterone. plus the intricacies of proper HRT with other hormones are multi-faceted, and I trust the body to work out the levels among different hormones more than the best endo. in addition i don't want to be reliant on patches, gels, or injections, and I don't want the expense. I want to work with the endo to try some version of an HPTA reboot, a la Scally. He uses HCG in combo with clomid and tamoxifen. The HPTA is somewhat plastic, so even if I couldn't boost my levels permanently, I could boost them temporarily. better this than suppressing them further with testosterone.

anyway I really appreciate your input Jelisej. Do you have any opinion on the Scally protocol with HCG and clomid/tamox? or long term treatment with e.g. toremifene? when I get home tonight I'm going to buy the Kindle version of Scally's book and read it through.

thanks again