Do steroids cause permanent gains in the User, even after discontinuation?

[WesleyInman]

This study seems to believe it to be true.


Article:
Testosterone propionate can have permanent effect on muscles, says animal study

Any thoughts or comments?

[burlyman30]

I can comment from a personal level on this.

In my youth I bulked naturally from 95 lbs up to 160 and then I was stuck. I cycled and went up to 190 in 8 weeks. After that, even without AAS, I never went below 170-175. That is, until I stopped training for a decade, at which point I dropped to 150-155 lbs and stayed there.

Once I resumed training, I put on about 17 lbs in a matter of 4 months, with nothing more than food. No AAS or PHs. My workout partner at the time asked me if I was taking steroids because week after week I was making gains.

At this point I was back to about 172 lbs, which was clearly more than my pre-AAS days. Strength was up, though nowhere near my prime. However, strength was definitely higher than my pre-AAS days.

Then I did 8 weeks of PP's Turinabol (halodrol) and added another 17 lbs and significant strength.

I believe there is not just a muscle memory, but an "anabolic memory". We can't fully regain the strength we may have had during steroid use until the stimulus of steroids are back in the system again, but we definitely can benefit from said memory, even without the anabolics.

[Cobalt]

I don't think the gains are 'permanent' but as long as the muscle stays stimulated, it can remain.

And like burly said, if you stop lifting and lose the size, coming back to the gym will restart the growth.

[burlyman30]

One thing I am not clear on is the mechanism that occurs. The article speaks of stem cells and hyperplasia, but as far as I know, hyperplasia has never been proven in humans. But I believe that this muscle memory or cell memory can occur from hypertrophy, and is not dependent on hyperplasia. If someone has new research on this matter, I would be interested in reading it.

[weekend]

i personally think, after a lot of recent studying for anatomy classes, that it's largely a function of the fascial stretch.

i have a spot on my right bicep that is slightly deformed when very pumped, and i can tell it's because that part of the fascia is not as stretched as the rest. there isn't room for the muscle there, but if i flex to full contraction, the other part of the fascia can accommodate it.

[booklifter]

I wish the answer were simply yes and as has been pointed out there is a qualitative 'memory' effect but a couple cautionary points when interpreting this particular study:
1) 14 days on the strong side of the pellet release curve is, time-wise, approximately a year on cycle for you.
2) Quantity-wise, it would be almost 10g of test for you (though the time distortion probably means you can pick (1) or (2) as your source of positive bias instead of both). So, ippy's set, but for the rest of us...
3) Female mice, so if you picked (1) earlier now you can put (2) back on the table. On a related note, if you enjoyed reading the full version of this study you'll also like this one: Visualising Androgen Receptor Activity in Male and Female Mice

I do think there is some long-term post-doping (note the sponsoring agency's agenda, btw - I'm sure the scientists were somewhat independent but it's still worth noting) benefit within the standard confines of "use it or lose it", however, I think the design of this study intentionally exaggerates the effect so as to enable exploring the mechanism of action. That's a noble cause in and of itself, it just means we shouldn't get too excited about the magnitude of this effect in humans who run 'normal' cycles and have concerns foreign to the mice (such as ever seeing their testicles again much less using them to procreate, or not going postal at work because of the 240/160 blood pressure)

Anyway, thanks for posting, this is a topic that does need much more study and discussion.

[JM1000]

Imo very minimal, the body cannot carry the same amounts of muscle mass without the synthetic hormones you used.. But then again, there is no proof to this so it's just my 2 cents. The weight you keep post cycle could be some fat and a little muscle

[JM1000]

Since pct, traps and shoulders went down for me. I was able to keep gains in arms and wheels. If I am not mistaken, there is alot of androgen receptors in shoulder area? Maybe someone can elaborate?

[DJM]

i dont believe it, they dont stay

[weekend]

For someone who hasn't reached their genetic limit (if there is such a thing) I feel like some gains stay, but someone like Phil Heath would shrink up a ton if he stopped using.