Clomid study discussion

[burlyman30]

Yes, that is because that study is incomplete. It includes only specific group of people, dosages were probably very low.
There is another proviron study in which shows there was supression- but there they used higher dosages, that study was probably incomplete as well. Anyway- from anecdotal evidences first SHBG and then testosterone levels were reduced after supplementing with DHT.

150mg was used in both of the studies I posted. I'd say that is substantial. Both of those studies supported the finding of the other. I'd be interested to read the study you are referencing.

[Grape Ape]

You took that out of context.
We all do want young kids on forum, and all other types of people- what I dont want is that they get wrong idea how some compounds are safe or how it is easy to get HPTA going when shit hits the fan, as that will encourage them to start ph's/roids before they should. That could mess up their endocrine system- and no one wants that. That's all.

Maybe make the "Am I ready for ph/aas" sticky a must read before you can post. Many forums have this, but usually with their rules.

[Jelisej]

150mg was used in both of the studies I posted. I'd say that is substantial. Both of those studies supported the finding of the other. I'd be interested to read the study you are referencing.

This is from Michael Scally's article:
The quoted abstract from the study by Varma and Patel really does not give one any information. [Varma TR, Patel RH. The effect of mesterolone on sperm count, on serum follicle stimulating hormone , luteinizing hormone, plasma testosterone and outcome in idiopathic oligospermic men. Int J Gynaecol Obstet 1988;26:121-8.] The study is poor from the abstract alone. Please note that the statement, "Mesterolone had no depressing effect on low or normal serum FSH and LH levels but had depressing effect on 25% if the levels were elevated," refers unidentified group. The groups in the study include, "One hundred ten patients . . . had normal serum FSH, LH and plasma testosterone, 85 patients . . . had low serum FSH, LH and low plasma testosterone." Nowhere is there a group with elevated levels. Nonetheless, the cited effect is a "depressing effect" not stated as significant. Knowing the fluctuation in gonadotropin levels on testing even at a P<0.05 would not be meaningful. But it does go to the point that proviron has no adverse effect on the HPTA.

This is from Bayer product information: Early studies suggested oral
mesterolone did not usually suppress gonadotrophins or endogenous
testosterone production. A later single dose study suggests there may be a
central suppression effect at doses of 75-100 mg daily.
http://www.bayerresources.com.au/res...I/file9420.pdf


Cannot find other "sources" but there were studies showing testosterone supression during proviron usage, altough I do accept that proviron is not harsh on HPTA and it recovers in "no time".
Also there are some anecdotal reports on proviron reducing testosterone, but I have no concrete evidence, I must say.
This is best I can do at the moment:
Testosterone levels and gonadotrophins in ... [Arch Dermatol Res. 1977] - PubMed - NCBI
The hormone response to a synthetic an... [Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1977] - PubMed - NCBI
As from positive side proviron does reduce SHBG which leaves more free testosterone- and that is where benefits are coming from (including increased fertility in some people).

[BBG]

My view is that estrogen is 100x more likely to suppress hormone levels than testosterone. DHT, I don't know how suppressive it is, but if it lowers estrogen (or blocks estrogen) could potentially be used without much harm done to the HPTA.

[nate3993]

i know PA said up to 100mg daily of proviron is non supressive. but j has a study that says 75 is. i read someone saying though 50mg a day, and they got some good effects, strength, increased libido, hardness, and dryed them out. so if 50mg a day can warrant decent effect, then it seems that's a completely non supressive route. been thinking about finding some legit proviron and cruising on 50mg a day for a while and then getting bloods.

[burlyman30]

I need to read up on the studies that J presented, but it seems apparent that since some studies show no suppression and others show some slight suppression, then dosage tolerance must be somewhat an individual response.

[h2s]

My view is that estrogen is 100x more likely to suppress hormone levels than testosterone. DHT, I don't know how suppressive it is, but if it lowers estrogen (or blocks estrogen) could potentially be used without much harm done to the HPTA.

Very much agreed. Estrogen, imo, is the largest suppressant of hpta function. I have yet to see differently.

The key here is that you said "not much" suppression. If one sees a mild benefit from a compound, and only sees a slight impact on hpta, i would consider that worth it.

[Jelisej]

I need to read up on the studies that J presented, but it seems apparent that since some studies show no suppression and others show some slight suppression, then dosage tolerance must be somewhat an individual response.

I agree with this statement. There are always too many variables so different people will be affected differently, and problem with studies is that we dont know much about people, and their complete hormonal panel.
Proviron itself can be a Godsend or more-less waste, it can supress estrogen in some people and in some not.
In my case- it did not supress estrogen much (based on symptoms), but it did serve purpose and I did get rid of gyno (altough gyno was not there for too long). Anabolic side- nothing, strength gain- nothing. For leaning bit I was around 15% bf at the time which is too much to see real difference, but there was slight improvement. As for testosterone supression- I did not do bloodworks, and I can never really tell where my test. levels are.
So, maybe is fair to say that no one of us guys was really right or wrong- it depends from person to person and from lot of circumstances.
Also my opinion is that body builders are real fathers of endocrinology, all top endos are present at various bb forums for a reason. They learn, they have facilites to do all tests and then use knowledge gained from bodybuilders to treat people, and their charges are expensive. Unfortunately, they are in front of "conventional" medicine and ordinary endos (who are still in middle ages).

[Jelisej]

My view is that estrogen is 100x more likely to suppress hormone levels than testosterone. DHT, I don't know how suppressive it is, but if it lowers estrogen (or blocks estrogen) could potentially be used without much harm done to the HPTA.

Few times I've heard a quote that estrogen is 20X more supressive than testosterone, and that DHT is 7X more supressive than testosterone, but I have no idea if that is correct, and where did they get that quote from.
From "anecdotal" evidence it seems that "youngsters" tend to have high testosterone, low DHT and estrogen and older folks usually have high estrogen, medium DHT and low testosterone.
There was study on Australian farmers who were healthy and had good lifestyle- and they had good "hormonal status" their TT levels were above 700 ng/dl (if I remeber correctly).

[BBG]

Few times I've heard a quote that estrogen is 20X more supressive than testosterone, and that DHT is 7X more supressive than testosterone, but I have no idea if that is correct, and where did they get that quote from.
From "anecdotal" evidence it seems that "youngsters" tend to have high testosterone, low DHT and estrogen and older folks usually have high estrogen, medium DHT and low testosterone.
There was study on Australian farmers who were healthy and had good lifestyle- and they had good "hormonal status" their TT levels were above 700 ng/dl (if I remeber correctly).

I've heard it as 200x more suppressive (for estrogen), but I really don't have any idea. It's all just a guessing game until someone publishes a study (for finds one published).

I agree with your apparent assertion that a good lifestyle/diet can maintain higher test levels. We can't all be farmers in aussieland. Look at burly, the dude probably has crazy stress levels, has used roids in the past when he was younger, probably sleeps way less than most of us (i mean, he almost certainly does) and odds are his nutrition reflects his lifestyle, in that he probably eats not so great foods due to limited time. It's no wonder his T levels are low, right? Not to single you out Burly, it's just that that's how most of society is. We're running around trying to beat everyone else, while those farmers chill out and eat their organic foods that they grow themselves.