No libido after PCT don't know what to do.

[Jelisej]

Typical sign of hypothyroidism is increasing TSH levels with decreasing T4 levels, in some people T4-T3 conversion stays good (as it seems in your case) or maybe in your case you may supplementing with some stuff that is helping conversion (adding selenium or stuff that contains it, iodine supps), in any case your bloodwork is textbook example of slowing down thyroid, if for example your t4-t3 conversion is slower, than your ft3 would be somewhat lower, your fT4 would be somewhat higher and TSH would be higher. Now, must be noted that fT3 is hormone that does most of the stuff, but fT4 also has some action, it is important for hair growth and brain function as well. In any case, at some point you will have to start thyroid medication, and it will be for life I'm afraid. State of your adrenals are inconclusive, progesterone is ok and DHEA(s) as well, but cortisol is main actor here, and we dont know is it good enough- some of symptoms you described could be from low cortisol, or it could be from combination of low thyroid output and low cortisol (adrenals and thyroid work closely together and problem in one area will affect other as well as rest of endocrine system).

I was not clear enough on progesterone in previous message- your progesterone is ok, and it does not need fixing, it just that your DHT is too low for progesterone level, so you probably have some level of "sedating effect" from progesterone (which will have negative effect on libido) and progesterone has some anti-5ar activity. So I would leave prog alone- BTW dostinex lower prolactin and to some extent growth hormone, there is only one compound that lowers progesterone and is still under research/trials AFAIK. Even DHT I would leave for last bit, supplementing proviron or anything else at the moment is not best idea, as you need more testings and you want them to be accurate.

Considering you are going to toilet so often does implicate possible problems with prostate (it can also be low aldosterone levels, or infection or neurological problem or combination), and watery sperm is sometimes cause by some fluids coming from enlarged prostate- though I'm not specialist in that area, so I would leave it to others.

So, I would suggest you to re-check your thyroid and on top of test you've done before I would add antibodies, also would check cortisol and ACTH response- if confirmed low thyroid output I would start T4 immediately, if ACTH response is not good than you will need to treat adrenals as well, if ACTH is good than you will probably be ok or you will need to boost adrenals on temporarily bases,
after 4-5 weeks you need to retest your thyroid levels and adjust medication if needed and recheck your cortisol;
fixing thyroid will reflect on testosterone levels, which I would expect to be higher- TT will definitely be higher (as your SHBG will raise) free test will hopefully not get reduced

Your lifestyle may have some effect on your DHT levels, for example green tea inhibits 5AR activity which would reduce DHT levels, plus being vegetarian etc...

[Brazilianguy]

I tried hydrocortisone, prednisone, DHEA not all at the same time but none of them gave me any result. I can sleep and wake up well. I don't have hard time to sleep or wake up.
I saw people taking trenbolone or Deca and it raised their TSH levels. I would like to avoid T4, T3 meds at all cost because is something that I see many people using and don't feeling any result from it and it starts a terrible puzzle because T3 you need to take more than twice a day, armour is hard too and some people will get crazy thyroid levels like very low TSH very high T3 and low T4.

I think when I used SERMS or AI my TSH increased I know that SERMS may increase estrogen as well but my lab is recent and I stopped SERMS and AI for a long time. I stopped being vegan and drinking green tea for a long time.

Do you know if iodine supplement could be bad for thyroid? Because I read that Lugol can make a person hypothyroid after treatment. My antibodies labwoork are Ok. I also read that pregnant sometimes needs to take thyroid medication and woman who takes estrogen will need too that's why I think I'm more estrogenic than androgenic and my thyroid increased the TSH because its strange my FT3 is good and a lot of blood tests that I see I see people with FT4 similar to mine. I'm affraid to start any thyroid medication and it becomes a bigger puzzle to me.

About the urination I've noticed I just need to urinate a lot when I masturbate a lot in the day If I don't do that I don't feel the need to urinate all the time.
I'm in a situation that I don't know what to do and each people tell me something different. One guy told me that I need my SHBG below 10. My E2 should be 10 or 15 because my testosterone is not so high comparing to E2. But all I read is that e2 below 20 is bad for libido and health and it should be 22 until 30.

What I saw is that two guys recovered from all this nightmare one took androhard V1 and V3 and after each cycle he felt better after PCT. Other guy took proviron but I really don't know the dosage because in one of his posts he said he was doing 25, 75, 150, 175mg and he said he start noticing in 4 or 6 weeks. It's really a hard thing to follow and the same guy when he was taking proviron he did a cycle with T and Deca. He also used DNP so I really don't know.

I see that these two guys have something in common, both took an androgen medication. Do you think I should try androgel? I would use it with proviron and then do a PCT. Or maybe I could use something more strong like stanozolol. My friend has the same issue but he cycled DECA and in the other cycle he used trenbolone he said he got deca dick and the other cycle trenbolone made him worse and he used in the last cycle and he said stanozolol increased his ejaculation.

[Brazilianguy]

Other thing I noticed. I'm starting to get night sweats after using proviron. It is hot where I'm living but before even when I went to the beach I didn't sweat at night. I think its a good piece of information because I saw some people relating it. Does it relates to estrogen?

[Jelisej]

Any kind of hormonal disbalance will result in nightsweats, so I cannot really comment on that.
As for thyroid and AAS, lot of AAS will affect thyroid- but on temporary bases, really- thyroid hormones, TSH is all over the place when on trenbolone- but eventually it settles back to normal. SHBG ideally is between 15-25 IMO, and E2- 25 +/- 10, depending on test levels.
Anyway, I gave you may opinion, and that is as far as I can go, I would strongly suggest you to go to endo and work with him. Good luck!

[Brazilianguy]

Jelisej I can't use words to describe how I can say thank to you.

I just watched my latest blood test is the same as the above and I just forgot to put my SHBG level to you analise. My SHBG is in 20 pg/ml.
So what do you think? Someone told me that If I have low SHBG like I have I should get my E2 close to 20 or even less?
In another forum I don't know if I can say the name here. The people say whatever is your T level you should get your E2 in 22. Other guy said that some people with low SHBG the E2 should be 15 but I don't know and I really need your help. Also I know that estrogen dominance (e2 I'm sure and I don't know about progesterone) can increase TSH even with people who has good T3 levels (as you saw my levels). Do you think its possible fix this estrogen dominance and avoid thyroid medication? I saw people lowering TSH without these meds just fixing some hormones that's why I'm asking it makes me feel hope to fix it too.

Thank you so much for your help I pray to God that he will pay you with a lot of joys.

[Jelisej]

As far as I can tell, you main problem is low resting metabolic rate- resting metabolic rate is determined by: cortisol, fT3, insulin (sensitivity) and leptin- if one or more of these are skewed it will result in low resting metabolic rate- which basically means inability to sustain high(er) levels of hormones.
So what it means is that when testosterone levels go up so goes demand for cortisol and fT3 (as resting metabolic rate need to increase) so in your particular case there is at least one issue (with thyroid- as demand for fT3 goes up thyroid struggles to produce and brain is pushing it to work harder by sending signals (TSH) but in reality thyroid cannot keep up- subsequently that results in higher aromatisation levels so E2 goes up faster than it should be, again brain detects raising E2 levels and cuts off testosterone production. Now, if you would reduce E2 by AI you would get some higher test levels but your TSH would be even higher which would result in high prolactin levels, now you can add dostinex and reduce prolactin then probably your progesterone would get too high killing your libido etc.... etc... basically in every scenario of supplementing result is similar- you can boost your libido only on temporary basis.
So, in the end best thing is to boost metabolic rate- you can stay completely natural, even if your TT stays around 500 you still should be ok, your libido, workouts etc will not be great but they should be decent- you need to adjust your training and listen your body, sleep well, avoid stress, stimulants... Not overtraining, avoiding stress, stimulants, getting enough sleep will help adrenals, avoiding high GI carbs combined with exercise should improve insulin sensitivity, add 200 mcg selenium for thyroid (or you may get it from raw food like nuts) after 5-6 weeks add some iodine (I recommend lugol)- also make sure you get enough vitamin d.
All this can be helpful, after few months you'll see if there is any improvement. If situation is still not good than you will have to consider medication, tough even if things work out, still medication seems inevitable at some point in future.

As for E2 and SHBG- this is bit tricky as in reality we know whats driving something up or down, rarely we can manipulate them- people with low SHBG usually stay on low-ish side and with high on higher end.
Increase SHBG- Anabolic hormones generally reduce SHBG. These include testosterone, DHEA, insulin, DHT, and growth hormone.
Decrease SHBG- Thyroid hormone, Estrogens, and Progesterone (by increasing estrogen receptors/sensitivity), increase SHBG.

[Brazilianguy]

Jelisej I think I have a new information to you maybe you can help me with this too.
This is my test before SERMS.

Total T 340 min 241 max 827
SHBG 20 ...min 13 max 71
Free T 8.96 ....min 3,4 max 24,6
Bio T Avaliable 209....min 82 max 626
LH 4,2....min 1,5 max 9,3
TSH 2.4
T3 94....min 70 max 220
T4 7,4....min 5,1 max 13,5
Prolactin 6.80 min 2.10 max 17.70

Unfortunatelly I don't have my E2 levels and any other level to check. But do you think since my prolactin increased my estradiol increased to 29 now? I mean. Do you think my E2 levels were lower?

I'm asking it because the first time I took tamoxifen (novaldex) I started to get morning wood that time, also random erections through the day, more energy and one day I had a normal libido. But then I lost it all. And the next blood test I had:

Testosterone: 998
Free Testosterone: 910
SHBG: 23
E2: 38
Prolactin: 12
TSH: 3.6 (Increased from 2.4)
T4: 1.1

I don't know what happened in the days I was getting well. Do you think my e2 started to increase and getting similar to my SHBG level? Because I read in some places one guy pmgamer, his name is Phillip he told me that there's no such thing as e2 levels are optimal in 22 and e2 should follow SHBG he said his SHBG is always between 18 and 20. He just feels good when his e2 is between 15 and 20.

As I'm writing it I started to think that maybe my estrogens increased in this time and that's why my TSH increased maybe lowering then my TSH can decrease again and maybe when I get my e2 similar to my SHBG like 20 I start to feel the same thing I felt when I was on SERMS. What do you think?

I'm really grateful for all the help you're giving me.

[Jelisej]

That guy Phillipe is more-less right, but there is always personal factor, some people feel better with E2 around 20 some around 30, and SHBG should reflect E2 but it does not in many cases, and is a tricky bit as SHBG in reality depends on many factors- in your scenario I pretty much described it last time what happens- your thyroid cannot follow higher levels of testosterone as you can see your T4 goes in drain, and TSH goes up trying to dictate thyroid to make more. I may be wrong, but IMO I think your body can produce a lot, as you can see from results with tamoxifen, but ti does not as it tries to keep hormones in equilibrium, and with insufficient thyroid hormones you cannot have decent libido.
I think you have 2 options- stay natural improve lifestyle and settle for mediocre (till it lasts) or simply make appointment with endo and start with T4 medications and see what happens- tough you need to be alert regarding adrenal gland, as if it crashes you'll start all over again but from worst position.
BTW hormones should be treated in following order: 1. Adrenals 2. Thyroid 3. Sex hormones 4. GH

[Brazilianguy]

Sometimes my T4 gets 1.2 in the lab and my T3 conversion is also good. I tried everything about adrenals. HC, prednisone, Licorice Root, DHEA. I don't feel any difference when I take this things.

The time I noticed something was the first time I took the novaldex. I started to get morning wood, random erections through the day, better ejaculation and libido increased but then I lose everything again. Then my TSH, estradiol, prolactin, free testosterone, total testosterone increased. I will paste what I've found and something Phillip told me. I'd like your opinion about the ideia that decreasing estradiol would be good for thyroid levels. I asked him if decreasing e2 the prolactin would decrease too and maybe thyroid should improve. That's what he answered.

"I never heard of taking Arimidex will decrease prolactin but getting E2 in the right range can help with Thyroid levels."

This is also what I've found searching about SHBG/E2 ratio.

"E2 levels the best level
for E2 if your SHBG is mid range is 20 pg/ml. If your SHBG is lower
like mine at say 20 or less you need to keep your E2 levels lower.

What causes HighE2 and high SHBG? It seems that when my SHBG is high,
around 50 at the minute then my E2 needs to be around 50 pg/ml to get
strong nocturnal and morning wood.


Is there anyway to lower SHBG and E2 at the same time. At the moment this is my sweet spot.



Today my SHBG is between 18 to 22 and I keep my E2 levels at about 15 to 20 pg/ml.
The idea that optimal e2 equals 15-25 is indeed bogus.


A) its highly individual

B) i find that optimal e2 for me is when it closely matches shbg.


For example when my shbg is 35 i need e2 about 33-36


But when my shbg is 25 then i need 23-26

Because of your low shbg you will have alot of free E2 circulating in
your body,because shbg not only binds with free test but with free E2,

so the solution to your problem is to get your E2 lower.A good rule of
thumb is if your shbg is 15 then your e2 should be 15.If your shbg is 30
then your e2 should be 30.I myself have a very low shbg of 9.9 and have
to keep my e2 around 10.


Yes i read about it on another forum and decided to try it myself cause i
wasnt feeling good,had all the symptoms of high e2 but my e2 was only
25 but i felt like crap,so i decided to lower e2 some more and it
worked,better mood,good morning wood and no more getting emotional.Thats
why its important to know your shbg levels,that way you can try to tune
up your e2 to the desired level.

If your shbg is really low you might want to try a low dose sub-q shot
every other day.THat means less e2 conversion.Also shbg binds free test
but also free e2,so if shbg is low you will have alot of free e2
floating around in your blood stream.

(This one his SHBG is 55 and E2 55)

I feel better - am more positive, good morning wood, can concentrate
better and am seeing some body recomposition that is favorable.
I don't know whether to be worried about the higher E2 levels or not - I
don't feel emotional (feel more testosterone effects - dominance etc) ,
have good libido, nocturnal erections, no gyno signs, so no outward
signs of problems with E2."

[Jelisej]

I tend to agree to what other guys said, but I would repeat my earlier statement that controlling SHBG is almost impossible task, on other hand E2 is something that is possible to deal with- and there I would always go with the symptoms, I 100 % agree with idea of sweet spot (regarding E2).
As for E2- thyroid relationship- E2 does interfere with thyroid hormones, for example women need higher thyroid levels than men, man with thyroid hormones on 50% of ref range will feel ok, on other hand most of women will already have some symptoms of low thyroid output. Men with low thyroid hormones will have harder time to cope with high E2 levels, and will probably suffer from panic attacks. Reducing E2 will take off some pressure of thyroid, but wheter hormone levels will increase, not sure but I dont think it will make significant effect.

Back to SHBG and E2, with low SHBG person will aromatise a lot and will need more AI to control E2, on other hand person with SHBG will tolerate higher E2 levels and will aromatise less, but will have more difficulties with free test levels as well. Generally, lot of people who had high SHBG went on TRT regardless of having good tot. testosterone levels- even guys with 800-850-ng/dl, as tot. testost. cannot cross brain-blood-barrier, and thus we cannot "feel" effect of it.