Estrogen in PCT-Bloodwork Forthcoming

[Jelisej]

j- i used hcg throughout the entire cycle.....250iu m w f....so my body was in a better state to recover

but like i said....i wanna see what my blood test says and then go from there
and sorry, but i gotta disagree. Peptides in pct make you retain ur muslce gained on cycle like none other.....for mine and weekend's body....we both can say that is fact

What I ment about HCG- you did use it during entire time- but there is a gap between last shot and HCG and when LH started working, we dont know how long that period was- but it could be long enough to caused reduction in Leydig cells. As I said earlier I'm assuming the worse (as usually).

As for retaining muscle- this is a difficult question as it is very hard to get real date, actually it is impossible- thats why muscular muscular hypertrophy is still not proven in humans- as at the end of testings you would have to amputate body-builders arm and count muscle fibers and thickness etc....
Point is- we dont know did you maintain muscle size or water in muscle cells or is it something else.

Actually, to prove hypertrophy- they would have to exercise one arm only (or exercise with more weights on one arm)- and then amputate both arms to see the difference (thats how they do it in animals)- I dont know if that would be legal- but certainly there would be no volunteers.

[nate3993]

So saying my body isn't metabolizing my test means that my body is making it., and is gaving a hard time utilizing it properly? So does that mean my aromatize enzyme is high this creating more estro?


I didn't take an estrogen blocker after I took 25mg Exem And 12.5 Clomid Friday...

And now today a decent amount of acne is popping up.


So basically longer pct should make my body metabolize these hormones well?

What if my blood work looks fine?

[BoneDaddy]

Thanks bro' really good to hear that from you, as we had a bit uneasy relationship at one time, I did not like it- and I'm glad as it seems thats left behind us.

Never any hard feelings with me brother. People disagree and we move on. Now, if we can get everyone to buy into that simple, mature premise imagine what we could do! :-)

[Jelisej]

So saying my body isn't metabolizing my test means that my body is making it., and is gaving a hard time utilizing it properly? So does that mean my aromatize enzyme is high this creating more estro?
I didn't take an estrogen blocker after I took 25mg Exem And 12.5 Clomid Friday...
And now today a decent amount of acne is popping up.
So basically longer pct should make my body metabolize these hormones well?
What if my blood work looks fine?

As usually first I must say that is hard to answer your questions, especially to give specific numbers etc....

First I'll start with testosterone metabolism- what I mean is that testosterone does not convert properly, meaning either it gets converted a lot to estrogen or even DHT (which is not so likely) or it goes elsewere... Now lets get back to phrase that I use a lot "resting metabolic rate"-
resting metabolic rate is determined by: cortisol, fT3, insulin (sensitivity) and leptin- (and GH is needed as well) if one or more of these are skewed it will result in low resting metabolic rate- which basically means inability to sustain high(er) levels of hormones.
So what it means is that when testosterone levels go up so goes demand for cortisol and fT3 (as resting metabolic rate need to increase)

So to start with thyroid- as demand for fT3 goes up thyroid struggles to produce and brain is pushing it to work harder by sending signals (TSH) but in reality thyroid often cannot keep up- subsequently that results in higher aromatisation levels so E2 goes up faster than it should be, again brain detects raising E2 levels and cuts off testosterone production. Now, if you would reduce E2 by AI you would get some higher test levels but your TSH would be even higher which would result in high prolactin levels, now you can add dostinex and reduce prolactin then probably your progesterone would get too high killing your libido etc.... etc... basically in every scenario of supplementing result is similar- you can boost your libido only on temporary basis.
If there is problem with adrenals, its the same story more-less- Without sufficient cortisol levels t3 would not get transported to cells- and cortisol is needed elswere so RMR would be low, and symptoms would be quite pronounced- one would have big time lack of energy, would be dosing during the day and even after 12 hours sleep would be tired.... etc....

Basically longer PCT would refresh your receptors better which would mean better response to E2 and Leydig cells would regenerate faster- both this would lead to less aromatisation, and would stimulate endocrine system bit more, which in bit better.
OK, you can say that your cycle was not that harsh and that probably most of people would recover anyway- and yeah, that's true- but they would lose more muscles, recovery would be slower and their numbers might be lower. And their receptors would probably be less sensitive to E2.

If your bloods look fine? That would be good thing, but anyway- you have to understand that blood works tell only small part of the story- basically we know concentration of testosterone in blood, but we dont know how efficiently is getting used etc.... If one person A 800 ng/dl and person B 600 ng/dl it does not automatically means that person A is better off- it could be other way round- if person A has much faster metabolic rate than he would fare much better-
I'll try to explain: lets say there are 2 oil pipes- one is 2X ticker than other, and it holds 2X of oil in square meter- but if thinner had 3X higher pressure its overall output it would be much higher, and even if it has less oil per square meter- it would be more efficient and would overall result in more oil and revenue for its owner.

[nate3993]

gotcha my man. at least the bloods are pretty thorough, and should give a pretty good idea of where things are and where things need to be

total and free test, lh, fsh, estradiol, dht, prolactin, t4, tsh, shgb, cortisol, acth..and possibly one or 2 more things.

[weekend]

Basically, J, what I had told Nate is to start clomid at 25 mg right after his last shot.

I have had much better PCT experiences including some DHT at the beginning. He had dropped test prior to dropping the mast.

I had seen you write you preferred the idea of using 25 mg clomid a week to 10 days early to "preload" before steroids clear. I extrapolated this into a bit earlier since I find pct easier with mast or proviron or epiandro in first 2 weeks.

I don't see why you would advise a nearly 20 week pct for a 10 week cycle... But don't take that as an attack, no one wants you to leave and even though I'm majoring in physiology you clearly have a better understanding of it than I.

Let's remember the usual pct protocol parroted by bros everywhere:

Clomid: 100/100/50/50
Nolva: 40/40/20/20

Many people do well on that!

I don't think using low dose serms for 20 weeks is the answer but... I don't know.

[Jelisej]

OK, weekend- 1. I did not say I'm living I said if there is proof that I give bad advices I should be banned, btw I did not get upset or angry on anyone, but I do get frustrated as quite few times happened that people claimed that I said which I did not; I would like to point that I always try to be simple- so there is no point to try to find "deeper meanings"- for example if mention "clomid restart" it does not mean that I say that tamoxifene or other SERM is not good- I just use info that I have and that is been proven-

2."I had seen you write you preferred the idea of using 25 mg clomid a week to 10 days early to "preload" before steroids clear."
If you have link please post it, as I really dont think this is my idea, but is possible that it was typo, AFAIK in person who were using testosterone (TRT) if they tried restart- clomiphene would not start working till their levels would drop below 200 ng/dl- tough I dont remeber exact numbers- it was somewhere between 100-150 ng/dl but I'm not sure TBH

I did change some of my ideas over time and always try to improve things- but as far as PCT there were no significant changes, basic principles are the same- some bits were changed like suggesting to add taladafil/viagra or accepting idea of mixing tamoxifene and clomiphene- but again principles are the same including start of PCT,
regarding DHT derivatives also my postion was always the same, there is no so much data but DHT is supressive (tough I cant tell how much) The hormone response to a synthetic an... [Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1977] - PubMed - NCBI

3. I did not suggest 20 week PCT, i suggested that he should start all over again as it is questionable how successful was current PCT, and at what point he started to recover- so safest route is to start all over again, tough he can reduce dosage- if he has sides most likely its because overdosage

4. If one's testosterone is suppressed- He is suppressed, regardless of dosage if it was 400 mg of test e or 600 mg, and in both cases in PCT dosage would be the same, as a matter of fact even if he used 100 mg dosage would be same- AFAIK - in some compounds recovery is slower but for different reasons for example trenbolone can raise a progesterone a lot, and when raised it can take a long time to return to normal levels- or nandrolone has a big impact on serotonin ( and serotonin and estrogen levels are connected) and its effect can last 4X of duration of cycle- so that means if one was on 6 months on nandrolone cycle- it can backfire for 2 years after the cycle, I'm not sure how much it affects HPTA recovery, TBH but its effect on mood does last a while

[Massthetics]

Imma try and explain it all in as simple terms as possible.

was on cycle. 450 test c, 6-700 masteron e for 10 weeks.250 iu hcg 3 days a week. i played around with dosages. in my 2nd to last week i was at 800 mast and then ended my last week with 900 mast. the day after my last shot i went into pct and i did 100mg proviron for 7 days into pct whilst doing 50 mg of clomid and 25 exem e3d. i then went to 25mg clomid and 25mg exem eod and did this for about 1 and a half months. i then switched to clomid and erase.

here' s the part that's weird. in the past, i've only ever needed 2 erase, aka arimistane, a day and to control estro. well, i purchased olympus labs El1iminate which is the same ingredient as erase and yet I've been on FIVE a day, and it hasn't crushed my estro. if i would go on of 3 regular erase, it would make my estrogen too low. if i drop below 5 pills a day now, i start to get acne which I've found from my cycle that acne means estrogen, not necessarily an increase of androgens.


so basically, i'm guessing the eliminate is under dosed. that sucks. and then also, if my estro spikes when i go below 5 eliminate a day, then does that mean my estrogen is just gonna sky rocket when i come off the eliminate?


i just got bloodwork done today

tsh, t4, free & total testosterone, shgb, ,lh, fsh, dht, acth, prolactin, cortisol, estradiol, and possibly a couple other things.

i hope the bloodworm will shed light on my shedding or if the shedding is just something i need to ride out and then it'll stop

You're running a bunch of drugs and blaming an otc ai of your problems? Bollocks.

[ryhigh]

When do you get your bloods back Nate?

[BBG]

Cleaned up the thread, sorry about that. Moved to: BBG is not a good guy. He is bad guy. And a shill. Dang that guy is just the worst.