Epi-Andro and Halo Extreme First Timer

[AttackonHill]

Hi All,

Hoping for some input on this. First prohormone use, 25 years old, been lifting since I was 14 with periods of laziness scattered in between. Been lifting consistently without any slacking now for two years.

I am a big fan of raw powerlifting and strongman. Not strong enough to compete yet, but maybe eventually. Only problem is I am (or was very overweight). I started out around 290 lbs at 5'9, and yeah that's without any hormone use ever, so mostly fat with a hidden layer of muscle beneath.

In the past five months I have cut down to 245 lbs, doing my best to retain my strength in the process despite the rather aggressive rate of loss.

I am very interested in trying a stack of epi-andro rx with halo extreme for eight weeks, epi-andro throughout at 4 caps a day, and then weeks 3-8 add in 3 caps daily of the halo. I'll probably keep cutting as I have been until I'm around 220-230, but strength loss is starting to be a bummer, and I'd like some assistance in retaining strength, maybe even a little bit of a muscle gain as I lose the final pounds. I've read good things about both of these PHs and I think they would allow me to up the calories slightly, continue to lose weight, but prevent any further muscle and strength loss as I try to get my weight down to the 200-220 area.

The big monkey wrench in all of this is that my hamster has pretty severe prepubertal gyno, like literally since his earliest memories of childhood big puffy nipples. He's pretty much grown to accept it over the years, but even when he dieted down to sub 10% bodyfat years ago he still had the issue (though weight loss greatly helps, of course).

Since he's had gyno for his whole life, his only concern is WORSENING gyno - his is strictly a case of some breast tissue, but mostly mutant nipples. Never had any painful lumps, lactating, or any sides like that. Doesn't want full, cuppable breasts, the puffy nips are acceptable, but anything more would be unacceptable.

Now some will tell you that DHT can help some people with gyno, but I know that even with epi-andro and halo being very safe in terms of aromatization/rebound, some people get gyno from it... so it makes my hamster worried his pre-existing gyno could worsen.

The idea we came up with is in addition to tamoxifen PCT, throw an AI, anastrozole in during the cycle and then taper during PCT phases at maybe .5 - 1 mg daily during cycle and then .5 to .25 to 0 from weeks 1,2,3 of PCT then finish up PCT with tamoxifen for remaining weeks.

Then there's the possibility that anastrozole itself will produce rebound effects and I wonder if it's even worth it... I think during cycle it's probably a good idea, but I'm clueless on the tapering bit. Honestly it's my own idea inspired by what I've heard from the old timers tapering their test cycles. I can't find any research on the subject or opinions on major forums, etc. I've done some pretty hardcore research in what little spare time I have, but eventually I just hit a wall... I'm not a biochemist after all.

If anyone took the time to read all my stupid rambling and has advice, I'd really appreciate it! Thanks in advance.

[lt1head]

I think the consensus is that aromasin/exem has less estrogen rebound effects, coming off adex has a bad rep for potential gyno problems.

begin taper down after you're off tam, exem should continue to encourage T production while keeping E under control. basically get your T production to where it needs to be, and then your E conversion. do a slow taper and pay attention to the low/high E sides and adjust.

After your cycle and pct is done, might want to look into prami to maybe reduce the gyno further. havent used it personally or know how it works for pubertal gyno, but some of the guys here seem to like it lol

hope this helps! GL

[AttackonHill]

Thanks man, definitely helps. So you recommend continuing exem beyond the normal duration of PCT, then? To summarize, would you run it during cycle, during PCT, and then taper after finishing PCT? (that's what I think you're saying, just making sure I don't misinterpret). What type of dosage do you think is appropriate?

[lt1head]

I would start the exem at 12.5mg eod when you start the halo, and then be the last thing you come off of. Run exem two weeks past your serm and stop, no need to taper exem actually, did some more research as the whole exem over adex thing is relatively new to me too Not only is exem less likely to cause rebound, it actually cant cause rebound.

So summary: halo has some (very small) potential to cause gyno, serms have a slightly higher risk, the highest risk time will be the weeks after ceasing serm use, and finally exem has zero rebound effects.

Everyone isn't the same. mostly likely not, but you may need to adjust exem doses based on how you react to the various substances, listen to your body. Look up hi/lo estrogen sides to get an idea if needed

Different topic, do not use a cycle support with saw palmetto or any other dht blockers as it makes epi andro hard less effective, just ask Wes lol. I would be tempted to run the halo the whole 8, and bump the dose to 100+ as sides allow. Halo is pretty tolerable, so is epiandrohard, well to me anyways haha.

[AttackonHill]

I would start the exem at 12.5mg eod when you start the halo, and then be the last thing you come off of. Run exem two weeks past your serm and stop, no need to taper exem actually, did some more research as the whole exem over adex thing is relatively new to me too Not only is exem less likely to cause rebound, it actually cant cause rebound.

So summary: halo has some (very small) potential to cause gyno, serms have a slightly higher risk, the highest risk time will be the weeks after ceasing serm use, and finally exem has zero rebound effects.

Everyone isn't the same. mostly likely not, but you may need to adjust exem doses based on how you react to the various substances, listen to your body. Look up hi/lo estrogen sides to get an idea if needed

Different topic, do not use a cycle support with saw palmetto or any other dht blockers as it makes epi andro hard less effective, just ask Wes lol. I would be tempted to run the halo the whole 8, and bump the dose to 100+ as sides allow. Halo is pretty tolerable, so is epiandrohard, well to me anyways haha.

Thanks again man, yeah I did some research myself last night 12.5 mg seems like a standard dose, one thing I'm a little confused about is that some people run EOD like you suggested, whereas some people say that the half life for exem is too short and needs to be run every day, but when you run every day there's the risk of suppressing estrogen too much so that's why some people run EOD... this is the problem I always run into when I research this stuff, analysis paralysis and everyone seems to have their own theories that make sense on paper and you don't know which way to turn.

I guess I'd be pretty good to go with exem, but the only other thing that nags in the back of my head is some people say that running an AI on cycle can kill your results? I don't really get why it would. Even if your estrogen dropped too low I can't see any reason why low estrogen sides would ruin a cycle. Now obviously a lot of people do run AI on cycle but they're cycling real gear and stacks of androgens and powerful stuff, so maybe their stacks are just so strong it overpowers the weakening effects of taking an AI? I'm just worried that my over paranoid taking an AI with two non aromatizing compounds would cause me to negate my gains haha.

I think you're right that it might just be a matter of trial and error/listening to the body, you want an instruction manual on these things, but individual biochemistry makes that difficult.

Yes I did read that about saw palmetto, I will have to look into other DHT Blockers as well to see what to avoid because I'm a fan of herbal supps for general health purposes, don't want to take something unknowingly and screw things up. I'll probably just keep it simple with some liver support and my usual stuff like green tea extract.

As for the dosing, you're right, from everything I've read halo is fine at 100 mg/8 weeks and even doable up to 10, just didn't know if that was okay while being stacked with epiandro. Epiandro being non methyl I guess there isn't any real risk; I don't need to be that cautious. I'm definitely looking for some pretty beast results, after all. I'm decently strong and pretty muscular (underneath the fat) without any hormone use, so taking the jump has to be worth it results-wise.

[Turbo6GN]

I think you need a cycle of PH's like a hole in the head. You need diet, HIIT and lots of gym time. With that % of body fat you will be very very disapointed with the results and with some pre existing gyno issues you are asking for trouble.

[lt1head]

Thanks again man, yeah I did some research myself last night 12.5 mg seems like a standard dose, one thing I'm a little confused about is that some people run EOD like you suggested, whereas some people say that the half life for exem is too short and needs to be run every day, but when you run every day there's the risk of suppressing estrogen too much so that's why some people run EOD... this is the problem I always run into when I research this stuff, analysis paralysis and everyone seems to have their own theories that make sense on paper and you don't know which way to turn.

I guess I'd be pretty good to go with exem, but the only other thing that nags in the back of my head is some people say that running an AI on cycle can kill your results? I don't really get why it would. Even if your estrogen dropped too low I can't see any reason why low estrogen sides would ruin a cycle. Now obviously a lot of people do run AI on cycle but they're cycling real gear and stacks of androgens and powerful stuff, so maybe their stacks are just so strong it overpowers the weakening effects of taking an AI? I'm just worried that my over paranoid taking an AI with two non aromatizing compounds would cause me to negate my gains haha.

I think you're right that it might just be a matter of trial and error/listening to the body, you want an instruction manual on these things, but individual biochemistry makes that difficult.

Yes I did read that about saw palmetto, I will have to look into other DHT Blockers as well to see what to avoid because I'm a fan of herbal supps for general health purposes, don't want to take something unknowingly and screw things up. I'll probably just keep it simple with some liver support and my usual stuff like green tea extract.

As for the dosing, you're right, from everything I've read halo is fine at 100 mg/8 weeks and even doable up to 10, just didn't know if that was okay while being stacked with epiandro. Epiandro being non methyl I guess there isn't any real risk; I don't need to be that cautious. I'm definitely looking for some pretty beast results, after all. I'm decently strong and pretty muscular (underneath the fat) without any hormone use, so taking the jump has to be worth it results-wise.

Exem has a half life of 27 hours, even though there will be little more than a quarter of that in your system next dose, should still be more than enough for halo . Even though halo does not aromatize, it can cause your body to convert your naturally occuring test through some function where your body recognizes halo and decides theres too much test in-system. It's not nearly as bad as a compound that does aromatize though. You could just run exem during pct and have it on hand in case you get sensitivity etc...

AI will only reduce gains if it lowers E too much, as long as you keep it in range you'll be golden. kinda sounds like broscience lol. Your body needs estrogen to function properly, but I think it's more the achy joints preventing you from going HAM in the gym than anything. I ran a cycle which my E levels were undetectable the last day and made about the gains i was expecting still. Low E is very bad for you long term though.

Yeah this stuff is all trial and error, took me until cycle 4 or 5 before I got a good feel for how I handle everything. Just take notes, mentally or otherwise, do your research beforehand (seems like you are), and take 3 months off before the next cycle.

I cannot remember what the other major DHT blocker is... I need to find a good support without those anyways, I'll post what I find. Cycle support is something is NOT something to skimp on, my first cycle I had no idea what i was doing, skimped on support, and got the worst case of mono my doc had seen in a long time.

Dosing is also on a per individual basis, I handle Halo very very well and mithras and alpha-1 not nearly as well. I can run halo at 200mg a day with tren, others cant handle 120mg... don't be scared to up the dose if you feel like you can handle it, and lower if its too much.

regardless of where you start out bf% wise, you will make very accelerated progress with PH's. the important thing is youve been lifting for some time. I don't understand people who say you gotta be swole AF to cycle I mean, androhard is the best recomp out there

[lt1head]

Cycle guard by wicked supplements looks pretty good, or there's Aegis by antaeus labs looks decent as well... wicked is a forum sponsor, so they probably have a coupon for you

[Bucks]

Used Aegis several times with great results. Using it now with SDMZ 2.

Never had issues with bloods after the run.

[AttackonHill]

Used Aegis several times with great results. Using it now with SDMZ 2.

Never had issues with bloods after the run.

Cycle guard by wicked supplements looks pretty good, or there's Aegis by antaeus labs looks decent as well... wicked is a forum sponsor, so they probably have a coupon for you

Thanks guys, I will definitely look into those, and thanks for all the input It1head.

I think you need a cycle of PH's like a hole in the head. You need diet, HIIT and lots of gym time. With that % of body fat you will be very very disapointed with the results and with some pre existing gyno issues you are asking for trouble.

I appreciate the advice and understand you're saying so to look out for my best interest, but:
1. As I said in the opening post, I'm a powerlifter, I'm not joe six pack coming off of a life of McDonald's and watching TV - I already go to the gym 6 days a week - 4 days of powerbuilding, 2 days of prehab style work for my shoulders and knees
2. I am currently sitting around 240-245 range depending on hydration,etc. I am heavily muscled, probably nearing the upper possible range I could reach without any use of gear (I'm sure I could eke out a little more of course, but close, I'm probably within 5 lbs of my natural hypertrophy limit). I think if I got down to 220-230 I'll be about as lean as your typical NFL linebacker, maybe not the leanness of a bodybuilder, but if skinnyfat dudes can use prohormones and get results why couldn't I? Genuinely curious if you have a reason for thinking so because I may keep cutting until I'm 200ish before cycling, but part of my reason to want to run this cycle is to retain my strength as I keep shrinking, so cutting has been the game plan all along.

As for gyno issues, you're right that I'm paranoid, but lots of bodybuilders have gyno, one of my friends runs test and has gyno, etc. I've already got it pretty bad, so as long as I keep it in check from getting any larger I don't see what harm I can inflict upon myself in that department.