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  1. #11
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 entropy's Avatar
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    I wouldn't dream of rushing into anything, much less any form of hormonal manipulation. I agree with you that my situation isn't that bad but it's been a very enlightening and humbling experience. I need to give my body the absolute best conditions it needs to heal. So whilst I'm not worrying exactly, I feel it's paramount to act now and be as informed as I possibly can. I also realise the need to let my mind relax and not dwell on the problem excessively.

    Jelisej, I realise why you suggest I avoid any prohormones and I take your advice very seriously. However Androsterone/Epiandrosterone specifically have seemed to help a few of the people who've recovered from this so I'm still going to keep that open as a possible avenue in the distant future and try to learn as much as I can about these two products in the meantime.

    Thanks.

  2. #12
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 1 (100%) Freepressright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropy View Post
    I wouldn't dream of rushing into anything, much less any form of hormonal manipulation. I agree with you that my situation isn't that bad but it's been a very enlightening and humbling experience. I need to give my body the absolute best conditions it needs to heal. So whilst I'm not worrying exactly, I feel it's paramount to act now and be as informed as I possibly can. I also realise the need to let my mind relax and not dwell on the problem excessively.

    Jelisej, I realise why you suggest I avoid any prohormones and I take your advice very seriously. However Androsterone/Epiandrosterone specifically have seemed to help a few of the people who've recovered from this so I'm still going to keep that open as a possible avenue in the distant future and try to learn as much as I can about these two products in the meantime.

    Thanks.
    Nutritionally, it would not hurt to start addressing this immediately. Vitamin D3 is a good place to start. While D3 is referred to as a vitamin, it is actually a steroid hormone (secosteroid). It has a lot of influence on hormonal production and is very important to your testosterone.

    A high-quality tocotrienol supplement like Tococaps or Tocomin Supra Bio helps with things like LH sensitivity.

    Although I, for whatever reason do not respond well to high doses of it and have to take a much lower dose, a Trans-Resveratrol supplement might be worth exploring.

    And I may catch some flack for this, but I have some study data on it, but I am a big fan of Liftmode brand Tribulus. It is standardized at 90% steroidal saponins. When I take it, I notice a really nice leaning effect, better pumps and my libido increases. It also seems to cause some acne.

    Most studies that show tribulus to have negligible impact on testosterone were done with extremely low or unknown standardizations. Most every supplement you'll find is only standardized at 20 to 45 percent. The liftmode is 90. It is available as a raw powder on Amazon.

    None of these should be a detriment to any future physician's plan to put you back on track. For now I would steer clear of a DHT prohormone.

  3. #13
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 entropy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freepressright View Post
    Nutritionally, it would not hurt to start addressing this immediately. Vitamin D3 is a good place to start. While D3 is referred to as a vitamin, it is actually a steroid hormone (secosteroid). It has a lot of influence on hormonal production and is very important to your testosterone.

    A high-quality tocotrienol supplement like Tococaps or Tocomin Supra Bio helps with things like LH sensitivity.

    Although I, for whatever reason do not respond well to high doses of it and have to take a much lower dose, a Trans-Resveratrol supplement might be worth exploring.

    And I may catch some flack for this, but I have some study data on it, but I am a big fan of Liftmode brand Tribulus. It is standardized at 90% steroidal saponins. When I take it, I notice a really nice leaning effect, better pumps and my libido increases. It also seems to cause some acne.

    Most studies that show tribulus to have negligible impact on testosterone were done with extremely low or unknown standardizations. Most every supplement you'll find is only standardized at 20 to 45 percent. The liftmode is 90. It is available as a raw powder on Amazon.

    None of these should be a detriment to any future physician's plan to put you back on track. For now I would steer clear of a DHT prohormone.
    Great reply, FPR. I've started on 5000iu a day of Vit d3 and I've also been taking Jarrows Tocosorb in the mornings, I think I'll try a different brand when the bottle runs out though.
    As for tribulus, I have some standardised at 45% steroidal soponins but I'm quite apprehensive about taking anything along those lines until I can lose a bit more of my body fat.

    To give you an idea of the quality of medical care in my country, I've had to ask a friend to pull all of my bloodwork from my notes at the hospital as my GP refuses to allow me access to my bloodwork. It's disgusting and depressing. As of now I've been attempting to find a private doctor/endo/etc who's familiar with the situation but I've had very little success even finding a Doctor who's willing to acknowledge it's a possibility so far.

    Again, you've all got a solemn promise from me that I'll be leaving the DHT prohormones very much alone until the distant future.

    Thanks!

  4. #14
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 1 (100%) Freepressright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropy View Post
    Great reply, FPR. I've started on 5000iu a day of Vit d3 and I've also been taking Jarrows Tocosorb in the mornings, I think I'll try a different brand when the bottle runs out though.
    As for tribulus, I have some standardised at 45% steroidal soponins but I'm quite apprehensive about taking anything along those lines until I can lose a bit more of my body fat.

    To give you an idea of the quality of medical care in my country, I've had to ask a friend to pull all of my bloodwork from my notes at the hospital as my GP refuses to allow me access to my bloodwork. It's disgusting and depressing. As of now I've been attempting to find a private doctor/endo/etc who's familiar with the situation but I've had very little success even finding a Doctor who's willing to acknowledge it's a possibility so far.

    Again, you've all got a solemn promise from me that I'll be leaving the DHT prohormones very much alone until the distant future.

    Thanks!
    The tribulus may actually be of benefit to you in your weight loss efforts and a great compliment to your Tocosorb. The belief is that potent standardizations stimulate LH production. Others believe it has an impact upon DHEA, which has a direct impact upon your adrenal gland. Hopefully that will ease your apprehensions about it.

    As for your quest to find a better doc, I wish you the best of luck. That's total bullshit that he won't divulge the results of YOUR bloodwork.

  5. #15
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 entropy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freepressright View Post
    The tribulus may actually be of benefit to you in your weight loss efforts and a great compliment to your Tocosorb. The belief is that potent standardizations stimulate LH production. Others believe it has an impact upon DHEA, which has a direct impact upon your adrenal gland. Hopefully that will ease your apprehensions about it.

    As for your quest to find a better doc, I wish you the best of luck. That's total bullshit that he won't divulge the results of YOUR bloodwork.
    I think I'll investigate the tribulus further. Cd recommends cycling a whole host of supplements that have a direct/indirect effect on T and trib is one of them.

    Thanks for the luck in regards to a Doctor, I'm going to need it. I'll post up my bloodwork later on, I haven't seen it myself yet but I have 3-4 sets of bloods in the past two months. I don't think they're all that comprehensive though, which is a shame.

    Thanks bro, I appreciate it.

  6. #16
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 entropy's Avatar
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    Bloodwork

    Bloodwork is in and it's a little bit interesting. Not what I was expecting. I've had four sets of bloodwork since 5th of september so I'll post ranges, then values in chronological order. 05/09, 09/09, 29/09, 16/10.

    Bone Profile.

    Serum adjusted Calcium (2.15 - 2.55) mmol/L - 2.23 (09/09), 2.12* (29/09) 2.25 (16/10)
    Serum Albumin (35 - 52) g/L - 51 (09/09), 49 (29/09), 49 (16/10)
    Serum Alkaline Phosphatase iu/L - 89 (09/09), 78 (29/09), 87 (16/10)
    Serum Calcium (2.15 - 2.55) mmol/L - 2.45 (09/09), 2.30 (29/09), 2.43 (16/10)
    Serum Globulin (18 - 36) g/L - 21 (09/09), 18 (29/09), 21 (16/10)
    Serum Phosphate (0.81 - 1.45) mmol/L - 0.90 (09/09), 1.23 (29/09), 1.48* (16/10)
    Serum total Protein (66 - 87) g/L - 71 (09/09), 67 (29/09), 70 (16/10)
    Serum Urea (1.7 - 8.3) mmol/L - 2.2 (09/09), 3.1 (29/09), 2.6 (16/10)

    C- Reactive Protein (S)
    Serum C-reactive Protein (0-5) mg/L - <0.3 (09/09), <0.3 (29/09)

    Creatine Kinase (Serum)
    Serum Creatine Kinase (0-190) iu/L - 37 (09/09), 68 (16/10)

    Electrolytes and Creatinine
    Serum Creatinine (62 - 106) umol/L - 66 (09/09), 73 (29/09), 70 (16/10)
    Serum Potassium (3.2 - 5.1) mmol/L - 3.9 (09/09), 4.1 (29/09), 4.4 (16/10)
    Serum Sodium (136 - 145) mmol/L - 141 (09/09), 141 (29/09), 142 (16/10)

    ESR (0 - 15) mm/hr - 2 (09/09), 2 (29/09), 5 (16/10)

    Full Blood Count
    Hb (135 - 180) g/L - 180 (05/09), 182* (09/09), 170 (29/09), 176 (16/10)
    HCT (0.4 - 0.54) - 0.518 (05/09), 0.528 (09/09), 0.503 (29/09), 0.513 (16/10)
    MCH (27 - 32) pg - 31.5 (05/09), 31.7 (09/09), 31.4 (29/09), 31.2 (16/10)
    MCHC (310 - 360) g/L - 347 (05/09), 345 (09/09), 338 (29/09), 343 (16/10)
    MCV (76 - 100) fL - 90.7 (05/09), 92.0 (09/09), 92.8 (29/09), 91.0 (16/10)
    PLT (150 - 450) 10'9/L - 322 (05/09), 308 (09/09), 241 (29/09), 286 (16/10)
    RBC (4.5 - 6.5) 10'12/L - 5.71 (05/09), 5.74 (09/09), 5.42 (29/09), 5.64 (16/10)
    WBC (4 - 11) 10'9/L - 21.9* (05/09), 12.4* (09/09), 12.1* (29/09), 11.7* (16/10)

    Liver Function Tests
    Serum ALT (0 - 41) iu/L - 12 (09/09), 14 (29/09), 14 (16/10).
    Serum Total Bilirubin (0 - 21) umol/L - 9 (09/09), 7 (29/09), 5 (16/10)

    S Protein Electrophoresis
    Serum Immunoglobulin A (0.7 - 4) g/L - 1.5 (09/09)
    Serum Immunoglobulin G (7 - 16) g/L - 6.0* (09/09)
    Serum Immunoglobulin M (0.4 - 2.3) g/L - 0.3* (09/09)

    Serum Free Testosterone
    Serum Albumin (35 - 52) gL - 47 (05/05) rest of the values up in the bone profile
    Serum Free Testosterone (243 - 571) pmol/L - 395 (05/05), 395 (16/10)
    Serum SHBG (18 - 54) nmol/L - 29 (05/05), 38 (16/10)
    Serum Total Testosterone (11.4 - 27.9) nmol/L - 18.3 (05/05), 21.3 (16/10)

    Thyroid Function Tests.
    Serum Free Thyroxine (12 - 22) pmol/L - 21.2 (05/05)
    Serum TSH (0.3 - 4.2) mu/L - 1.26 (05/05)

    Sorry for the unpleasant wall of text. Needless to say, I'm insanely pissed off with my doctor right now, I was told I had a slightly elevated WBC... Now I find that at one point it's been double the normal range. Interesting. I can't make sense of a lot of it, would be great for one of you guys to weigh in if you get some free time.

    Thanks.

  7. #17
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 Jelisej's Avatar
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    When you done one of blood tests, you probably had a some kind of illness which is why your white blood count was high and testosterone bit lower than other time. As far as testosterone result its not so bad, improving lifestyle and stopping worrying too much would make big difference, your SHBG is bit highish, your thyroid is not bad, your fT4 is best I've seen on this forum.

    Altough there are no adrenal hormones done, I believe your adrenal is fine based on some other results.

    Your WBC is always bit high which may be result of training hard, or some underlying infection or inflammation, allergy... There are few people who naturally have bit high WBC.

    All in all, not bad results, really.

  8. #18
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 entropy's Avatar
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    Thanks, I wasn't sure what to make of the t4. I'm going to try and get some more comprehensive bloods done and try and relax. It's pretty difficult when you feel crappy a lot of the time though haha. I'm working on relaxing a bit more, mostly I've got a lot of discomfort downstairs and gyno symptoms at the moment. It's getting me down a little but hearing that the bloods are pretty good so far has helped alleviate some worries.

    Thanks for the help.

  9. #19
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 Jelisej's Avatar
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    As for discomfort downstairs- I think its best to wait what urologist has got to say, hopefully he will do proper check and rule all other stuff varicocele, hydrocele, etc... Gyno- you may may need some AI if they are sensitive, or if your E2 is slightly elevated which may be the case, and is seen with post-fina users- but to solve gyno completely you will need surgery, which I think is possible to get through HNS? If not than you'll have to go eastern europe someday.

    Second thing is, I beleive that fina/propecia can also mess up with NO, so I think adding a lot of l citrulline could be helpful and even possibly solve the problem, I think FPR is the best to ask as he knows right combo

    also I agree with his supplement (except tribulus which I'm doubtful) but tocopheril is must have ( I prefer mixed nuts- brazilian nuts, walnuts, hazelnuts etc..)
    also taladafil may be helpful- it reduces E2 a bit, make testicles more effective, and also helps with NO).

    As for DHT, that I would leave for distant future, after everything else has been cleared. It may not be needed.

    Realxing/not worrying is biggest challenge- that will take a lot of time and will power, but it has to be done, otherwise you will not get result- as it has a really big cascading effect- affecting both hormones and neurotransmitters- which affect everything else.
    Last edited by Jelisej; 10-30-2014 at 06:12 PM.

  10. #20
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 1 (100%) Freepressright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jelisej View Post
    As for discomfort downstairs- I think its best to wait what urologist has got to say, hopefully he will do proper check and rule all other stuff varicocele, hydrocele, etc... Gyno- you may may need some AI if they are sensitive, or if your E2 is slightly elevated which may be the case, and is seen with post-fina users- but to solve gyno completely you will need surgery, which I think is possible to get through HNS? If not than you'll have to go eastern europe someday.

    Second thing is, I beleive that fina/propecia can also mess up with NO, so I think adding a lot of l citrulline could be helpful and even possibly solve the problem, I think FPR is the best to ask as he knows right combo

    also I agree with his supplement (except tribulus which I'm doubtful) but tocopheril is must have ( I prefer mixed nuts- brazilian nuts, walnuts, hazelnuts etc..)
    also taladafil may be helpful- it reduces E2 a bit, make testicles more effective, and also helps with NO).

    As for DHT, that I would leave for distant future, after everything else has been cleared. It may not be needed.

    Realxing/not worrying is biggest challenge- that will take a lot of time and will power, but it has to be done, otherwise you will not get result- as it has a really big cascading effect- affecting both hormones and neurotransmitters- which affect everything else.
    I understand your skepticism of Tribulus, J. I was in that camp once myself. What changed my mind was when a co-worker of mine was on NOW Tribulus 1000 (standardized at 45%). This guy was already a genetic beast and he swore the stuff gave him a nice boost. I tried it and dosed it at 1,000mg 3x a day. I noticed the energy increase, libido went up, but what was most striking was the leaning effect. And I did get some acne.

    About a year later I found the Liftmode Tribulus, which was standardized at 90%, higher than anything else on the market. And then I read this:

    Tribulus Terrestris: Worthless or Unjustifiably Chastized? Part I

    The whole experience swayed me.

    The only disadvantage is that the taste of the 90% extract is fucking terrible. I could see it being a deal breaker for someone, it's so bad.

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