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  1. #1
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 entropy's Avatar
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    Oh no! it's another one of the finasteride guys!

    Hey guys. I'm going to keep this really brief, I'm one of the finasteride guys. From that forum. I found and devoured everything cdnuts had to say, got the hell off of that nasty site and now I have a plan together to figure it out. I started lurking here a few days ago and realised you guys are actually pretty awesome, inspirational for someone like me really.
    I have a few nutritional questions because tbh I've treated my body like shit for a long time, in fact, I've spent a few years just existing, eating crappy food (maybe 1000 calories a day from the worst places) and making shitty life choices etc. So I've decided to man up and ask some questions.

    I'm trying to put together a paleo diet but theres a lot of conflicting information about diet on the internet. It's very difficult to decide what's going to be right for my situation. Cdnuts recommends paleo and carb backloading, I understand that and I'm altering my diet as such but I'm still really quite confused about a few things.

    1) on my non workout days, do I eat just enough carbs to keep me out of ketosis? I'm carrying a few extra pounds, nothing to drastic but enough that it has to go before I can progress much further with my plans.

    2) Can anyone recommend any literature, books, articles, anything that explains the logic behind these concepts and decent nutrition in more depth? I'm one of those guys who can do something if he's told to do it, but if I know why.. I'm a hell of a lot more productive. In the end there's a lot of misinformation, it's pretty obvious you guys have that stuff figured out pretty damned well.

    3) On my paleo diet how much fat is to much fat? I primarily use extra virgin olive oil, kg butter and extra virgin coconut oil to cook with and eat a lot of nuts, seeds etc. Not sure how much of that is

    4) Am I cool primarily getting my fruits and veggies from green smoothies? I'm not used to eating very much during the day as my diet has sucked for years, green smoothies have been a great way for me to get a huge amount of veggies in my body without having to make a meal of it so to speak.

    I've a few more questions and i'm hoping to be able to contribute as much as possible as time progresses. I'm not as totally screwed as some who've been hit by this have been but I'm in a pretty bad place right now and I'm willing to do anything possible to get back to my old self. I'm 25 years old and I feel like i'm eighty.

    If the information is already on the forum, I'm sorry for starting this thread but my brain is pretty slow a lot of the time these days. I have more questions that I'll ask in the appropriate section as time goes by but this right now is the most important.

    Thanks a lot guys, sorry if the post is a little incoherent but I feel like I'm thinking through treacle a lot of the time.

    Cheers.

  2. #2
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 1 (100%) Freepressright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropy View Post
    Hey guys. I'm going to keep this really brief, I'm one of the finasteride guys. From that forum. I found and devoured everything cdnuts had to say, got the hell off of that nasty site and now I have a plan together to figure it out. I started lurking here a few days ago and realised you guys are actually pretty awesome, inspirational for someone like me really.
    I have a few nutritional questions because tbh I've treated my body like shit for a long time, in fact, I've spent a few years just existing, eating crappy food (maybe 1000 calories a day from the worst places) and making shitty life choices etc. So I've decided to man up and ask some questions.

    I'm trying to put together a paleo diet but theres a lot of conflicting information about diet on the internet. It's very difficult to decide what's going to be right for my situation. Cdnuts recommends paleo and carb backloading, I understand that and I'm altering my diet as such but I'm still really quite confused about a few things.

    1) on my non workout days, do I eat just enough carbs to keep me out of ketosis? I'm carrying a few extra pounds, nothing to drastic but enough that it has to go before I can progress much further with my plans.

    2) Can anyone recommend any literature, books, articles, anything that explains the logic behind these concepts and decent nutrition in more depth? I'm one of those guys who can do something if he's told to do it, but if I know why.. I'm a hell of a lot more productive. In the end there's a lot of misinformation, it's pretty obvious you guys have that stuff figured out pretty damned well.

    3) On my paleo diet how much fat is to much fat? I primarily use extra virgin olive oil, kg butter and extra virgin coconut oil to cook with and eat a lot of nuts, seeds etc. Not sure how much of that is

    4) Am I cool primarily getting my fruits and veggies from green smoothies? I'm not used to eating very much during the day as my diet has sucked for years, green smoothies have been a great way for me to get a huge amount of veggies in my body without having to make a meal of it so to speak.

    I've a few more questions and i'm hoping to be able to contribute as much as possible as time progresses. I'm not as totally screwed as some who've been hit by this have been but I'm in a pretty bad place right now and I'm willing to do anything possible to get back to my old self. I'm 25 years old and I feel like i'm eighty.

    If the information is already on the forum, I'm sorry for starting this thread but my brain is pretty slow a lot of the time these days. I have more questions that I'll ask in the appropriate section as time goes by but this right now is the most important.

    Thanks a lot guys, sorry if the post is a little incoherent but I feel like I'm thinking through treacle a lot of the time.

    Cheers.
    Welcome, Entropy. You've just become a part of what I feel is the most helpful and tight-knit fitness/weightlifting/bodybuilding forums on the net. Whatever you need around here, attitude is everything. Come in with a good attitude and an open mind and people will practically line up to help you.

    Good luck to you in getting your life back on track. It's a pretty big step, but this is a great place to come for inspiration.

    I see you describe yourself as a "Finasteride guy." I presume that you're one of many who took finasteride and suffered some of its terrible and long-lasting side effects. It's a hard thing to recover from for the guys who suffered adverse drug effects.

    Anyhow, take a look around and keep us updated on your progress. We're always happy to help someone out.

  3. #3
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 1 (100%) weekend's Avatar
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    I actually dont know the answer to anything but #4... But green smoothies only are a fine source of veggies. Try to cook veggies once a day with your meat though its good to make a habit of that.

    What are your major symptoms post finasteride? The new ultra epi andro from antaeus might suit you well. Cdsnuts had great results cycling androhard.

  4. #4
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 entropy's Avatar
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    Weekend - I had most of the symptoms for the first few weeks, I wont go into details but I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. A lot of it has however eased up over the past two months with a lot of lifestyle changes but it's going to take a long time for me to get better.

    As of now I've no libido, some ED, mentally I'm pretty slow now which just sucks. Oh and testicular shrinkage which fluctuates hilariously through the day. One minute they're normal, other times one will shrink, or the other. Can't quite figure it out but I'll let you guys know when I do!

    As for androhard and dht prohormones, I think it's very possible that they can and will contribute to my recovery further down the line. Unfortunately it seems the adrenal glands and thyroid are at play here too and need to be corrected before the sex hormones are fixed.


    Freepressright - Thanks for the welcome. I was actually just going to lurk but I found the community to be to appealing not to join. You guys are pretty awesome, I've lurked a lot of forums and never seen a community quite like this.

    I agree that it's hard to recover from but it isn't impossible. There's commonalities in cdnuts method and a few other recoveries, enough that I have a fairly solid idea what's going on. At least for me and the guys. I've also spoken to a few guys who have managed to get better or consistently improve by adopting an incredibly strict regime, including cdnuts himself. Mine is a work in progress but I'm very confident. Especially with the information I've found here and all over the place.

    I'll start a thread in a more appropriate section at some point and elaborate on the situation if you guys would like?

    Thanks.

  5. #5
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 Jelisej's Avatar
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    Welcome to the board bro'. 1. As for diet- from my point of view, all this paleo/primal thing is bit caca- as 1. every person has his own food requirement, some people do very well with low carbs other not so- you're best judge 2. every paleo spokesman has its own version of paleo, 3. paleo/primal is not really paleo as if you check out archeological date, you'll find that ancient people were quite an opportunists
    So basically you should decide whats best for you, low-med-or higher carbs- one thing we'll all agree is to avoid simple sugars and high GI carbs,

    As for your libido issues- try not to stress yourself over it, as you dont want it to become mental problem, you have to understand that for good libido
    everything else needs to be in good working order, and you'll have some work to do before fixing libido

    Oh and testicular shrinkage which fluctuates hilariously through the day. One minute they're normal, other times one will shrink, or the other. Can't quite figure it out but I'll let you guys know when I do! "
    - it sound like "communicating hydrocele"- meaning that fluid from elswere is going into your testicles and back- changing size of them, definitely need to see urologist

    "Unfortunately it seems the adrenal glands and thyroid are at play here too and need to be corrected before the sex hormones are fixed" - this is right, to fix problem you need to see bigger picture, seeing endo may be good idea, extensive bloodworks are must do

  6. #6
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 entropy's Avatar
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    Thanks for the welcome, Jelisej.

    I agree with you about paleo, I personally believe it's recommended because the propecia guys would've expected an itemised shopping list. Paleo seems to be a great jumping off point, I think cdnuts recommended it because most of the guys there still follow the SAD and lack the initiative to really learn how they're meant to be eating. It's also great for adrenal insufficiency from what I can gather so I'm running with it, making adjustments and just generally feeling it out. I've had to become very in tune with my body very quickly but I enjoy it.

    I wish I had a communicating hydrocele, unfortunately it's definitely extreme fluctuations in the testicular mass. I've seen a doctor multiple times and been told it's entirely normal for testicles to change size, I disagree and doctors don't really like that. I'll see a urologist but I'm inclined to believe I'll be met with the same sort of resistance I've been met with before but I'll press the issue.

    I've also gotten myself an appointment with an endocrinologist around here but not much is known about this condition and doctors are especially unlikely to think outside of the box in the uk. Unfortunately I'm probably on my own here but I'm fully prepared for that.

    I'm working on getting the cash together to pay for my own comprehensive bloodwork in an attempt to give myself an even clearer view with exactly what's going on in my body.

  7. #7
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 Jelisej's Avatar
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    Testicles size mostly comes from different fluids and it can change size, and it can change it relatively quickly but normally it does not happen that often- especially not as you describe it, so there is likely possibility that you may have hydrocele, or some other condition where fluids are coming in and out- it can also be problem with prostate (which in itself can cause libido and other issues). So I think urologist is person to see- also urologists are generally more understanding people and they can even help with possible hormone issues, they can order bloodwork as well as prescribe testosterone treatment,
    also once when you get some time- you may sit down and describe exactly what is going on, all relevant data symptoms etc....


    And maybe would be good idea, if any moderator is reading to move this thread in "mens health" as it seems more appropriate, and it will save from creating another thread.

  8. #8
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 entropy's Avatar
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    Testicles size mostly comes from different fluids and it can change size, and it can change it relatively quickly but normally it does not happen that often- especially not as you describe it, so there is likely possibility that you may have hydrocele, or some other condition where fluids are coming in and out

    - Sorry Jelisej, It's awkward to be more specific about this situation but I'll try and explain the testicular issue with a little more details. Basically the testicles are rather uniform, left slightly smaller than the other, I want to say they're both slightly smaller than they usually are but as I wasn't very vigilant before there was a problem. However they left has blown up to the size of the right and the right has shrunken down to the size of the left. I can't really be more specific than that but it's certainly not normal and it's only been happening since my last run in with finasteride.

    it can also be problem with prostate (which in itself can cause libido and other issues). So I think urologist is person to see- also urologists are generally more understanding people and they can even help with possible hormone issues, they can order bloodwork as well as prescribe testosterone treatment,

    - Working on getting referred to a Urologist too, I'm not expecting very much however, most Doctors seem to be reluctant to acknowledge this is a possible problem and more reluctant to attempt treatment, even moreso in my country. I'm also reluctant to bring out the big guns so to speak at this early stage anyway, especially as nothing seems to work for most of the people experiencing similar issues. However I do want to make sure there's nothing sinister involved.. Nothing more sinister anyway!

    also once when you get some time- you may sit down and describe exactly what is going on, all relevant data symptoms etc....

    - This will take a very, very long time to explain. I took finasteride on and off for around seven years, I didn't actually experience any noticable side effects for most of that time. It's an incredibly insidious process if you're one of the guys who get's hit by the persistent side effects, so slow you don't notice. It's like a door closing incredibly slowly, over a period of months. You don't really realise the door's closing because it's closing so damned slowly until one day it's closed. Then the panic attacks, insomnia and severe sexual dysfunction kick in overnight. It'll take me a long time to explain this as thoroughly as possible but I'm going to try my best.

    My situation has improved and that doesn't seem to be a very common theme for most of these guys so I'm very optimistic.

    And maybe would be good idea, if any moderator is reading to move this thread in "mens health" as it seems more appropriate, and it will save from creating another thread.

    That'd be great, if someone could maybe rename the thread too? I wasn't expecting this kind of support. I had resigned myself to having to take this strange journey alone. Intelligent support is incredibly appreciated. Thank you.

  9. #9
    Established Member Feedback Score 0 entropy's Avatar
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    A quick rundown of my symptoms for Jelisej and anyone else interested - Edit, there be genital details in here, avoid if you don't have a sense of humour!

    I'll try and be clear and concise, I'll list my current symptoms first and elaborate on the symptoms that've faded at the end.

    I lost about fourteen pounds of muscle and I wasn't exactly a big guy before that. I went down to about 130lbs, by applying a few things I've learned here I've manage to put every pound back on as functional muscle. I've still got some fat around the midsection and such but I'm working on getting rid of that too, ideally I'd like to remove as much fat as possible to avoid excessive aromatisation as that's causing me some issues right now. Which moves me onto my next point.

    Bilateral (Pseudo?) gyno. My right nipple is hella puffy without taking estrogen lowering supps. It's also sensitive and I have a couple of lumps in the chest, nothing behind the nipple, just a lot of puffiness. I'll be honest, this is annoying, but the lumps are worrying because they don't resemble glandular tissue in the way I'd imagine breast tissue to develop, nor how I've seen it described here. I'm pressing my doctor to confirm it's nothing sinister. He believes it's a "gland" which is retarded English Doctor for lymph node, it's possible with the muscle loss that it is a lymph node but it's hard, swollen and painless and that needs to be investigate regardless IMO. I've gained a little pectoral fat on both sides but not unreasonably.

    Uncooperative testicles. Only way I can describe it. Sometimes they're almost normal size, sometimes they shrink, sometimes they switch that shit up, just for the sheer comedy. Who knows. I find it funny now because they're usually the right sorta size in the morning when T is supposedly highest. Smallest if I have a really disturbed nights sleep. I get a strange pulsing sensation in the left on quite often, occasionally just before bed both of them might decide to rhythmically pulsate. Maybe a couple of times a minute. I'm not sure exactly what to make of this but it's neutral for now. Nothing bad or good tends to follow.

    Libido is pretty shot. Below the waist, I'm functional and it works but it's damned sluggish about it. I have to get myself interested and it'll rarely stand to attention without a little manual stimulation. I can still perform though thank god, I only get off with my girl now and we don't see each other all that often so fortunately this is something I can work around without any pde5 inhibiting drugs. I don't have that same drive to get laid though and that's somewhat upsetting.

    My skin has gone to absolute hell, mostly in the areas I'd mark as most active androgen wise. All over my skin has thinned out quite a bit, especially on my face and junk. Wang looks like I traded with an extra from the walking dead. Still all functional, but it's just.. weird. Dark as hell circles under and around my eyes and a little bit of fat loss on the face, looks a bit grim.


    On to the Eye of the Storm - So I used finasteride on and off for a very long time, seven years or so with very little in the way of side effects.
    My last run in with the drug was totally different however, the batch was even the same, not expired, it was definitely finasteride and yet two pills in all hell broke loose. I went to bed one night feeling a little strange... I woke up six hours later with rubber, cold non responsive genitals. The next two weeks of so dealt with crippling insomnia, panic attacks, complete impotence and imposed asexuality, my facial hair, body hair and outer thirds of my eyebrows started shedding, tinnitus, my eyes wouldn't focus properly, muscle starting wasting at a rate of 2-3 pounds a week with no dietary changes whatsoever, hair started growing back at the temples (Something that never happened since I'd started balding, even on finasteride)

    It was awful. I thought about killing myself a few times when I found that site, the stories are just awful. However I found cdnuts post and a few other guys who'd managed to pull themselves out of that hole. So I got to work, I started finding the patterns in their recoveries and trying to figure out why they managed to get out of the horrible situations they were in. Even started theorising as to what might have happened to us.

    I've learned a lot here from reading about your experiences with aas. Finasteride is a steroid too, it's synthesized from progesterone.. or progestin, I can't remember which. It's actually an analogue of testosterone, therefore the mechanics of the drug seem to be very similar to most other androgenic compounds.. except finasteride is practically inert in these situations, it's not androgenic at all. It's also a suicide inhibitor. In my very uneducated opinion this means that when fin bound to the 5ar2 enzyme, it's not getting unbound, therefore my body has to replace the enzyme and it's very possible that the 5ar2 reduced compound now occupies a receptor site.

    Anyway I've made a lot of progress. It's still very early days but I'm confident that I can beat this, so confident in fact, that I plan to start a training log here. Great diet and exercise are key to recovering from this shit and chances are I'm going to want to try androhard. So I'm following DJM's "Am I ready for aas/ph?" guide.

    I'd love to brainstorm some with you guys. I'm trying to get all the relevant blood work now. I've got some of the basics I'll copy up when I find the form but it's nowhere near specific enough. . I'm thinking a full hormonal panel, vitamins, minerals, liver function, 24 hr saliva cortisol everything that could give us an idea. It'll be expensive but I'll gather together the funds to pay for it myself.
    Last edited by entropy; 10-29-2014 at 07:31 PM.

  10. #10
    A 1k Club Member Feedback Score 0 Jelisej's Avatar
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    Try not too worry too much, if you can help it- regarding testicles let urologist do his part, blood tests will also tell some story- everything else is a speculation, and testicle size is actually very hard to gauge for numbers of reason. Lot of people that think that have small testicles actually have a big one and vice versa.

    As for your gland, also no need to worry about it too much- only thing you can really do is to remove it surgically, so losing sleep over it is pointless.

    Now, Finasteride is a bastard, and most of problems are because of it- but I think your situation is not as bad, what is best course of action, we'll see- but it will take time, dont try to rush things- and dont even think about prohormones. That is if you want to find a permanent solution.

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