Saw Palmetto and Fenugreek...im in trouble!

[entropy]

Your posts make my eyes bleed dude. Say less and fix your formatting a little, there's no way people will read through that. Anyway, beta sitosterol has to be taken in a pretty large dosage to mess with hormones, its actually present in a lot of things like avocado etc. Kinda like how there's cyanide in apples. I haven't actually looked for any negatives on pine pollen, I've been using it for a couple weeks and noticed nothing but benefits however.

[5 alpha victim]

"Your posts make my eyes bleed dude. Say less and fix your formatting"

It's actually really easy to follow. I posted sources for every point made.

"Anyway, beta sitosterol has to be taken in a pretty large dosage to mess with hormones"

Interesting. Not sure how much caution I want to use with beta sitosterol yet. Perhaps a product like toco caps that contains some beta sitosterol is safe. The study I posted about nettle however makes it clear that the nettle contains other ingredients that inhibit 5AR other than just the b-sitosterol. With that said Stinging Nettle is deff not safe for 5AR sensitive guys.

"I haven't actually looked for any negatives on pine pollen, I've been using it for a couple weeks and noticed nothing but benefits however."

I'm not sure what to make of this yet. We know pine pollen contains gibberellins and we know based on the gibberellins study I posted that gibberellins does inhibit DHT at least in the prostate. When I seen that super Man herbs claimed pine pollen had the ability to shrink the prostate I started looking into gibberellins and that's how I found that study.

It appears most Phystosterols are 5AR inhibitors. But to what extent? And should 5AR sensitive guys avoid them?

The good news is that there is at least two members on this website who take pine pollen and who are sensitive to 5 ar inhibitors and they have no problems. Only benefits.
Like I said this could be huge if gibberellins truly can inhibit Dht just in the prostate and no where else in the body....

[entropy]

As far as I'm aware the beta sitosterol in toco caps is naturally occurring in the palm oil its made from. I take a mixed tocotrienols product too. One could say I don't fuck around. Just for funsies, lauric acid is a 5ari, it also makes up about half of the fatty acids in coconut oil and I consume that in vast amounts. On average about 30-40gms a day. CD likes it too. No issues. Obviously be careful but a tonne of things can inhibit an enzyme in a test tube.. It doesn't always mean consuming that thing will have the same effect after ingestion.

[Speck]

I mentioned this somewhere else but as well as in-vitro effects being sometimes vastly different from in-vivo effects, dietary fats are mostly triglycerides whereas the study involving lauric acid used free fatty acids. Different effects on cells.

For the same reason I'm skeptical about sorghum; the study which supports its role in increasing 5ar focused on the fatty acid content. The same study looked at rice and conversely found it to be a strong 5ar inhibitor, yet billions of people around the world eat plenty of rice, and their prostates aren't shrivelling up or their dicks falling off.

Sorghum bran however contains heaps of antioxidants, rivalling those of other more expensive 'superfoods' (pomegranate, etc.). Possibly pro-erectile benefits there by that MOA rather than increased DHT.

[Cdsnuts]

I can save you the trouble from needing to dig into your Propecia files.

Here is a study about the 5 alpha reductase capabilities of Stinging Nettle:

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/...2e0291953a.pdf

The most important paragraph from this study: (Stinging Nettle is abbreviated as UD)

The results of the study suggest that UDP prevented prostatic hyperplasia significantly with 50 mg kg)1 show- ing the best activity. UDE also showed significant results. The in vitro studies cleared the mechanism of prevention of prostatic hyperplasia induced by testosterone. It is evi- dent that UD extracts have 5a reductase inhibitory activ- ity. The weekly serum testosterone levels are suggestive of the mechanism of action of the extracts and finasteride. The decrease in urinary obstruction also suggests that the extracts have a positive effect on hypertrophy of the pros- tate. As b-sitosterol is a well-known molecule established for the treatment of BPH (Martindale, 1989; The Merck Index, 2006), the presence of b-sitosterol as a major con- stituent in the extracts further supports our observations. A number of clinical studies undertaken by different scientific groups have supported clinical efficacy of b-sitosterol in prostate disorders (Braeckman, 1994; Berges et al., 1995; Klippel et al., 1997; Wilt et al., 1998, 1999). Our studies with b-sitosterol are indicative of its protec- tive effects on testosterone-induced hyperplasia. The per- centage of b-sitosterol in UDP and UDE was calculated to be 27.28% and 19.96%, respectively. The amount of b-sitosterol present in the extract does not seem to be sole contributor of the activity as 20 mg kg)1 dose of standard b-sitosterol is not as effective as the extract (50 mg kg)1). The effects of b-sitosterol might be potentiated by the presence of other constituents present in the extract. Synergistic mechanism of action along with the other phytoconstituents present in the extract can be suggested for these preventive effects.

Important things to point out from this study;

Stinging Nettle Inhibits 5 alpha Reductase

Nettle contains B-Sitosterol. Just incase anyone does not know what this is its a type of PhytoSterol found in Saw Palmetto.

Here is my source to back this up. It's a study about the content/mechanism of action of Saw Palmetto:

Fatty Acid and Phytosterol Content of Commercial Saw Palmetto Supplements

On page 3 you will read about how B-Sitosterol is one of the common PhytoSterols found in Saw Palmetto.

I highly recommend anyone who is interested in understanding the ins and outs of Saw P to read that entire study.

I also recently discovered that B-Sitostetol is in the Toco caps from the ultimate stack from Wicked Sups. This is unfortunate as I was planning on using it as PCT and now need to make other plans.

Here's the link to the wicked sups showing B-Sitostetol is in the Toco Caps:

The Ultimate Stack Wicked Supplements

This study about Gibberellins seems to relate to this subject so I figured I'd offer the information:

Patent WO1991008751A1 -
The use of gibberellins for the treatment of prostatitis and psoriasis - Google Patents

Gibberellins are a type of PhytoSterol that is found in Pine Pollen.

Here is the link from SMH's that talks about how Gibberellins are found in Pine Pollen and here is a link that that provides some basic information about PhytoSterols.

Pine Pollen - Testosterone - Pine Pollen Tincture - Benefits

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhytoSterol

I dug out the important pieces of information from the Gibberellins study posted above. This may be important to people who are sensitive to 5 alpha reductase inhibitors.

"The gibberellins and gibberellin precursors have a structural similarity with testosterone and therefore bind to the testosterone receptors"

" The physiological effects exerted by testosterone are therefore mimiced by the gibberellins and gibberellin precursors . The effect on hyperplasia or hypertrophic growth of the prostatic glands is also a result of the testosterone-like activity"

" the gibberellins or gibberellin precursors are thought to bind to the enzyme 5-α reductase , which normally converts testosterone to dihydro testosterone"

"If the concentration of gibberellins or gibberellin precursors in the prostate is high enough, the 5 -α reductase can be blocked by the gibberellins or the gibberellin precursors"

"Experimentally induced hypertrophic growth of the prostatic gland in rats by dihydrotestosterone was also inhibited by the gibberellins. Treatment of male adult uncastrated rats with a daily 50 μg dosis of dihydrotestosterone for three months resulted in hypertrophic growth of the prostate gland. The weight of the prostate was 814 mg, which was equivalent to about 0.342 of the total body weight. When the rats were simultaneously given a daily dose of 100 μg of gibberellins GA20 and GA30, an increase in prostate weight was not detected. The weight of the prostate was in this case 582 mg, which was equivalent to 0.20% of the total body weight"

"Hyperplasia and hypertrophic growth of the prostate glands in male humans was also reduced by treatment with gibberellins GA20 and GA30. The substances were administered orally in a weak ethanol solution containing doses of 10 μg, 50 μg, 100 μg, 500 μg and 1 mg per day for three weeks. The treatment resulped in a reduced swelling and a reduced growth of the prostate. The treatment with the gibberellins also resulted in a slight increase in body weight and a slight increase in libido"

My interpretation of the gibberellins study:

Based on the results of this study its clear that the Testosterone mimicking effects gibberellins has on the Testosterone receptors can grow the prostates of rats and in humans. It's also clear the 5 Alpha Reductase properties that gibberellins have can shrink the size of the prostates in rats and in humans. I'm assuming that this is why it says on the SMH's website that "pine pollen can shrink the Prostate if it's inflamed or grow the Prostate of its to small".

My thoughts about the gibberellins study:

Even though we know 5 alpha reductase inhibitors typically can raise testosterone levels it's uncommon for a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor to also have anabolic properties. This makes gibberellins unique in the regard that it "acts as testosterone" in the body but at the same time it can inhibit the 5 alpha reductase enzymes. Maybe this has the potential to be significant for guys who are sensitive to taking 5 alpha reductase inhibitors as this is may be a way to inhibit the enzyme but at the same time with the protection of its anabolic properties.

Also the study seems to suggest that when the gibberellins inhibit 5 alpha reductase it's doing so within the prostate and not on a systematic level. This could be groundbreaking for someone who suffers from an enlarged prostate and who is also extremely sensitive to 5 alpha reductase inhibitors like my self. Of course the only other known effective alternative to 5 alpha reductase inhibitors is surgery when it comes to treating an enlarged prostate.

Question for CDnuts.

1) are you still taking pine pollen ?

2) how long have you been taking the pine pollen ?

3) if you took the time out to read the gibberellins study, what are your thoughts?

4) have you noticed or felt anything while taking pine pollen that would make you believe it's problematic for 5Ar sensitive guys?

Just an FYI. I am by no means trying to challenge Pine Pollen. I just wanted to post this just incase it it does have the ability to act as a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor and you are not aware.

Nothing but good things to say about pine pollen. Its g2g.

[5 alpha victim]

Nice. That puts my mind at ease. I am eager to start taking pine pollen and pine pollen tincture that I already have.

I'm going through a phase of being more paranoid than usual about 5AR inhibitors after confirming that my T levels recently crashed. I suspect that a fish oil supplement that I have been taking for the last three months is to blame.

I think this paragraph from the gibberellins study says everything we need to know:

"If the concentration of gibberellins or gibberellin precursors in the prostate is high enough, the 5 -α reductase can be blocked by the gibberellins or the gibberellin precursors"

It's making it sound like if Gibberellins inhibit 5AR it's only in the Prostate. Also it's making it clear that only if the gibberellins content in the Prostate is high enough will it inhibit DHT.

[Lookingforhelp]

Hi CDsnuts. I've followed you for some time now and I appreciate that you are way behind the finasteride stuff and it's all documented well. I've read a lot into your regime.

I'm a little crappy with these forums too and not quite sure how to private message you so hope you don't mind me hijacking this.

A brief story of myself. A couple of years ago now I began to get very fatigued and tired. I had a physical job so put it down to this at the time. I'd always had a strong libido and ravenous drive. I began taking these male vitamins for a boost. I ran out of the 20 odd pills. I then looked at the active ingredients. One was saw palmetto? I had never heard of this so googled. Instantly as you read it mentions increasing sex drive and male impotence... And at the same time helps hair loss? I thought great. I'll buy some of this stuff.

After one pill of swansons saw palmetto I woke the next day with hell. Cold shrunken dick, no life, ed. it's like a switch had been turned off over night. I managed to recover when on holiday to Mexico a few weeks later. Maybe the vit d helped?

Coming back I began to feel worse, I began to get ravaged with aches and pains, diarrhoea, no libido again, ed. blood flow began to return to my dick but had prostate pain. Urologist said it was prostatits. I took some antibiotics which seemed to help.

I was then in hospital for a week with pericarditis which is an inflammatory condition of the heart, basically I was crippled with inflammation.

My bloods have always been okay. 3 adiol g etc fine. I suffered with low cortisol for a while, maybe from all the inflammation, e2 never been an issue. Testosterone has been good, free and total. The only thing I've suffered with for two years has been raised prolactin. I tried cabergoline a few times and it helped immensely but prolactin would always come back. I have no tumor.

I then did much research into prolactin burnout and autoimmune. I kept begging for tests for autoimmune disorders butnthendocs wouldn't have it despite my gut issues. Eventually I managed to get checked for celiacs disease. It came back positive! Great, I thought this would be the answer. I began a gluten free diet, I managed to rid myself of a little brain fog, cold hands and feet weren't a constant issue anymore, body temperature rose... Blood test for prolactin 2 months later was in a normal range. For once!!

Doing reading into celiac and hormones i came across this.

Infertility, obstetric and gynaecological problems in coeliac sprue. - PubMed - NCBI
Abstract
There is now substantial evidence that coeliac sprue is associated with infertility both in men and women. In women it can also lead to delayed menarche, amenorrhoea, early menopause, recurrent abortions, and a reduced pregnancy rate. In men it can cause hypogonadism, immature secondary sex characteristics and reduce semen quality. The real mechanism by which coeliac sprue produces these changes is unclear, but factors such as malnutrition, iron, folate and zinc deficiencies have all been implicated. In addition in men gonadal dysfunction is believed to be due to reduced conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone caused by low levels of 5 alpha-reductase in coeliac sprue. This leads to derangement of the hypothalamic-pituitary axis. Hyperprolactinaemia is seen in 25% of coeliac patients, which causes impotence and loss of libido. Gluten withdrawal and correction of deficient dietary elements can lead to a return of fertility both in men and women.

I could not believe what I was seeing. I now think I've suffered with gluten and celiac sensitivity for years without knowing, but it never seemed to effect me sexually that much. It mentions androgen insensitivity! When I first got really sick, my testosterone levels where high at 26. Looking at this study I would presume my dht levels were low. Drs fobbed me off saying it was all in my head.
Prolactin has an effect on 5 alpha reductase, I've read studies that it enhances the 5 alpha reductive enzyme in the testes, and others that show it blocks the enzyme in other areas.

Anyway, being gluten free, my prolactin is down but my testosterone has slumped. My dht sits at a good level though.
I'm still so so fatigued, my sleep is better, but libidos and erections are crap. I get nocturnal and morning wood but they aren't as strong as they should be. I still suffer with my mind and drive. I'm hoping being of gluten will repair me. Maybe when this first happened had I gone strict gluten this wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, I hope you are well and I respect you for your diligence. I can't stand the PH website, all moaning and gloom, yet no one is prepared to stop going out drinking, they keep eating shit. It's like you said, how badly do you want it. I've changed every aspect of my life for this. I just need to recover my sexual sides.

One question, do you need to keep cycling the herbs to function sexually? Or are you recovered even when off them?

For me I'm wondering what came first? What caused this? The celiacs or saw palmetto? Did saw palmetto set this off? I know one of the factors that got you better was diet. I just wanted to share this with people in case it helps. I think lowering 5 alpha to low levels changes something in our guts. Whether you have celiacs or not, I think gluten should be cut out for anyone suffering from propecia etc.

[English]

Hi CDsnuts. I've followed you for some time now and I appreciate that you are way behind the finasteride stuff and it's all documented well. I've read a lot into your regime.

I'm a little crappy with these forums too and not quite sure how to private message you so hope you don't mind me hijacking this.

A brief story of myself. A couple of years ago now I began to get very fatigued and tired. I had a physical job so put it down to this at the time. I'd always had a strong libido and ravenous drive. I began taking these male vitamins for a boost. I ran out of the 20 odd pills. I then looked at the active ingredients. One was saw palmetto? I had never heard of this so googled. Instantly as you read it mentions increasing sex drive and male impotence... And at the same time helps hair loss? I thought great. I'll buy some of this stuff.

After one pill of swansons saw palmetto I woke the next day with hell. Cold shrunken dick, no life, ed. it's like a switch had been turned off over night. I managed to recover when on holiday to Mexico a few weeks later. Maybe the vit d helped?

Coming back I began to feel worse, I began to get ravaged with aches and pains, diarrhoea, no libido again, ed. blood flow began to return to my dick but had prostate pain. Urologist said it was prostatits. I took some antibiotics which seemed to help.

I was then in hospital for a week with pericarditis which is an inflammatory condition of the heart, basically I was crippled with inflammation.

My bloods have always been okay. 3 adiol g etc fine. I suffered with low cortisol for a while, maybe from all the inflammation, e2 never been an issue. Testosterone has been good, free and total. The only thing I've suffered with for two years has been raised prolactin. I tried cabergoline a few times and it helped immensely but prolactin would always come back. I have no tumor.

I then did much research into prolactin burnout and autoimmune. I kept begging for tests for autoimmune disorders butnthendocs wouldn't have it despite my gut issues. Eventually I managed to get checked for celiacs disease. It came back positive! Great, I thought this would be the answer. I began a gluten free diet, I managed to rid myself of a little brain fog, cold hands and feet weren't a constant issue anymore, body temperature rose... Blood test for prolactin 2 months later was in a normal range. For once!!

Doing reading into celiac and hormones i came across this.

Infertility, obstetric and gynaecological problems in coeliac sprue. - PubMed - NCBI
Abstract
There is now substantial evidence that coeliac sprue is associated with infertility both in men and women. In women it can also lead to delayed menarche, amenorrhoea, early menopause, recurrent abortions, and a reduced pregnancy rate. In men it can cause hypogonadism, immature secondary sex characteristics and reduce semen quality. The real mechanism by which coeliac sprue produces these changes is unclear, but factors such as malnutrition, iron, folate and zinc deficiencies have all been implicated. In addition in men gonadal dysfunction is believed to be due to reduced conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone caused by low levels of 5 alpha-reductase in coeliac sprue. This leads to derangement of the hypothalamic-pituitary axis. Hyperprolactinaemia is seen in 25% of coeliac patients, which causes impotence and loss of libido. Gluten withdrawal and correction of deficient dietary elements can lead to a return of fertility both in men and women.

I could not believe what I was seeing. I now think I've suffered with gluten and celiac sensitivity for years without knowing, but it never seemed to effect me sexually that much. It mentions androgen insensitivity! When I first got really sick, my testosterone levels where high at 26. Looking at this study I would presume my dht levels were low. Drs fobbed me off saying it was all in my head.
Prolactin has an effect on 5 alpha reductase, I've read studies that it enhances the 5 alpha reductive enzyme in the testes, and others that show it blocks the enzyme in other areas.

Anyway, being gluten free, my prolactin is down but my testosterone has slumped. My dht sits at a good level though.
I'm still so so fatigued, my sleep is better, but libidos and erections are crap. I get nocturnal and morning wood but they aren't as strong as they should be. I still suffer with my mind and drive. I'm hoping being of gluten will repair me. Maybe when this first happened had I gone strict gluten this wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, I hope you are well and I respect you for your diligence. I can't stand the PH website, all moaning and gloom, yet no one is prepared to stop going out drinking, they keep eating shit. It's like you said, how badly do you want it. I've changed every aspect of my life for this. I just need to recover my sexual sides.

One question, do you need to keep cycling the herbs to function sexually? Or are you recovered even when off them?

For me I'm wondering what came first? What caused this? The celiacs or saw palmetto? Did saw palmetto set this off? I know one of the factors that got you better was diet. I just wanted to share this with people in case it helps. I think lowering 5 alpha to low levels changes something in our guts. Whether you have celiacs or not, I think gluten should be cut out for anyone suffering from propecia etc.

Like entropy said, you should start your own thread - put it in mens health and ancillary medication. There is a sub thread there for PFS. No-one can tell you which came first, particularly as you became fatigued and sought vitamins etc. for a boost. This could well have been the start of your coeliac condition. Looks like the saw palmetto caused the rest though and is consistent with hundreds of other saw palmetto stories.
You will recover if you do the right things consistently for months and maybe even years. I am recovered fully and many others have to, but the common denominator for the vast majority of those that have recovered is a positive outlook and excellent diet and exercise etc. over a long period of time. It is character building stuff, and one day you will realise that PFS made you the man you will become. You don't need direct contact with CD, just read all his posts as everything you need is written already by him on these boards and on PH.

[entropy]

Is it really that hard to make your own thread? Try reading CDs threads on the other site... Then come back here and ask for help. What is it you're asking here anyway?

[Lookingforhelp]

I was just merely discussing and confirming his recovery regime and that it must be a massive part of what's going wrong. I thought I would add to this thread seen as its to do with saw palmetto too and if anyone is going through it too it might help

I've read every single thing he's ever written, I stated that in what I wrote earlier. And I apologise I'm not great with computers and forums.

My question was does he need to be cycling herbs continually or is he okay without?