Saw Palmetto and Fenugreek...im in trouble!

[Swill]

haha! I'm sorry I don't mean to make you dig. I'm, unfortunately, a very logically minded individual (did I mention I love spreadsheets and well crafted schedule/budget software?)

But, suffice it to say, I believe you when you say the studies exist. I do wonder if it would negatively affect someone who is otherwise healthy, ie, doesn't suffer PFS.

To back up what CD is saying, I have read many, many (albeit anecdotal) reports from PFS guys stating that nettle was terrible for them/set them back considerably, etc... too many for it to be coincidence to my mind. I bought a bottle an age back and luckily read up on it first, so said bottle is now gathering dust somewhere. I too came across studies regarding it binding 5ar.

Again just theorising, but i wouldn't be surprised if nettle didn't harm me upon taking it at all if I had not done a lot of damage with much more potent finasteride, but now to add something like that to the mix would very much be playing with fire for a lot of us.

[BBG]

Yeah, I've taken stinging nettle back when Athletix came out with Divison 1, and it really ramped up my sex drive (while natty) for the 4 weeks I was taking it. That's why it's so surprising to me. Again, suffering from PFS, that must be the factor here.

[entropy]

Yeah, I've taken stinging nettle back when Athletix came out with Divison 1, and it really ramped up my sex drive (while natty) for the 4 weeks I was taking it. That's why it's so surprising to me. Again, suffering from PFS, that must be the factor here.

Maybe not necessarily. Surely unbinding/reducing shbg can have estro consequences too? Estrogen binds to shbg too iirc.

[Freepressright]

Let me clarify, early on, before adding in more specific herbs for DHT optimization, I was having nipple sensitivity issues. I had developed problems on my last Trest D run and never totally resolved it.

I used exem a couple times and it definitely had pro-sexual benefits and rid me of the problem. Since incorporating the boron, sorghum, nettle, daily Creatine HCI and ashwagandha, I have had no issues.

[5 alpha victim]

Seeing as I have an intimate knowledge of what 5ar inhibition feels like, Im going to disagree. As unscientific as that sounds. ..

And I feel I need to clarify when I say blocking DHT. When something blocks 5ar it stops the conversion of testosterone to DHT. That's what I mean when I say it blocks DHT. This is one of the reasons it is used as a test booster. Because not only does it act as an aromatase inhibitor boosting testosterone in that way but it also boosts testosterone because less testosterone is actually being converted into DHT driving up T numbers.

Again, not all men are sensitive to 5ar inhibition. If any of the PFS guys want to take stinging nettle for a spin and then report back , I'm pretty sure they would all say it feels exactly the way propecia felt when things started to go downhill.

You are going to make me dig into my files, aren't you? Lol

I can save you the trouble from needing to dig into your Propecia files.

Here is a study about the 5 alpha reductase capabilities of Stinging Nettle:

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/...2e0291953a.pdf

The most important paragraph from this study: (Stinging Nettle is abbreviated as UD)

The results of the study suggest that UDP prevented prostatic hyperplasia significantly with 50 mg kg)1 show- ing the best activity. UDE also showed significant results. The in vitro studies cleared the mechanism of prevention of prostatic hyperplasia induced by testosterone. It is evi- dent that UD extracts have 5a reductase inhibitory activ- ity. The weekly serum testosterone levels are suggestive of the mechanism of action of the extracts and finasteride. The decrease in urinary obstruction also suggests that the extracts have a positive effect on hypertrophy of the pros- tate. As b-sitosterol is a well-known molecule established for the treatment of BPH (Martindale, 1989; The Merck Index, 2006), the presence of b-sitosterol as a major con- stituent in the extracts further supports our observations. A number of clinical studies undertaken by different scientific groups have supported clinical efficacy of b-sitosterol in prostate disorders (Braeckman, 1994; Berges et al., 1995; Klippel et al., 1997; Wilt et al., 1998, 1999). Our studies with b-sitosterol are indicative of its protec- tive effects on testosterone-induced hyperplasia. The per- centage of b-sitosterol in UDP and UDE was calculated to be 27.28% and 19.96%, respectively. The amount of b-sitosterol present in the extract does not seem to be sole contributor of the activity as 20 mg kg)1 dose of standard b-sitosterol is not as effective as the extract (50 mg kg)1). The effects of b-sitosterol might be potentiated by the presence of other constituents present in the extract. Synergistic mechanism of action along with the other phytoconstituents present in the extract can be suggested for these preventive effects.

Important things to point out from this study;

Stinging Nettle Inhibits 5 alpha Reductase

Nettle contains B-Sitosterol. Just incase anyone does not know what this is its a type of PhytoSterol found in Saw Palmetto.

Here is my source to back this up. It's a study about the content/mechanism of action of Saw Palmetto:

Fatty Acid and Phytosterol Content of Commercial Saw Palmetto Supplements

On page 3 you will read about how B-Sitosterol is one of the common PhytoSterols found in Saw Palmetto.

I highly recommend anyone who is interested in understanding the ins and outs of Saw P to read that entire study.

I also recently discovered that B-Sitostetol is in the Toco caps from the ultimate stack from Wicked Sups. This is unfortunate as I was planning on using it as PCT and now need to make other plans.

Here's the link to the wicked sups showing B-Sitostetol is in the Toco Caps:

The Ultimate Stack Wicked Supplements

This study about Gibberellins seems to relate to this subject so I figured I'd offer the information:

Patent WO1991008751A1 -
The use of gibberellins for the treatment of prostatitis and psoriasis - Google Patents

Gibberellins are a type of PhytoSterol that is found in Pine Pollen.

Here is the link from SMH's that talks about how Gibberellins are found in Pine Pollen and here is a link that that provides some basic information about PhytoSterols.

Pine Pollen - Testosterone - Pine Pollen Tincture - Benefits

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhytoSterol

I dug out the important pieces of information from the Gibberellins study posted above. This may be important to people who are sensitive to 5 alpha reductase inhibitors.

"The gibberellins and gibberellin precursors have a structural similarity with testosterone and therefore bind to the testosterone receptors"

" The physiological effects exerted by testosterone are therefore mimiced by the gibberellins and gibberellin precursors . The effect on hyperplasia or hypertrophic growth of the prostatic glands is also a result of the testosterone-like activity"

" the gibberellins or gibberellin precursors are thought to bind to the enzyme 5-α reductase , which normally converts testosterone to dihydro testosterone"

"If the concentration of gibberellins or gibberellin precursors in the prostate is high enough, the 5 -α reductase can be blocked by the gibberellins or the gibberellin precursors"

"Experimentally induced hypertrophic growth of the prostatic gland in rats by dihydrotestosterone was also inhibited by the gibberellins. Treatment of male adult uncastrated rats with a daily 50 μg dosis of dihydrotestosterone for three months resulted in hypertrophic growth of the prostate gland. The weight of the prostate was 814 mg, which was equivalent to about 0.342 of the total body weight. When the rats were simultaneously given a daily dose of 100 μg of gibberellins GA20 and GA30, an increase in prostate weight was not detected. The weight of the prostate was in this case 582 mg, which was equivalent to 0.20% of the total body weight"

"Hyperplasia and hypertrophic growth of the prostate glands in male humans was also reduced by treatment with gibberellins GA20 and GA30. The substances were administered orally in a weak ethanol solution containing doses of 10 μg, 50 μg, 100 μg, 500 μg and 1 mg per day for three weeks. The treatment resulped in a reduced swelling and a reduced growth of the prostate. The treatment with the gibberellins also resulted in a slight increase in body weight and a slight increase in libido"

My interpretation of the gibberellins study:

Based on the results of this study its clear that the Testosterone mimicking effects gibberellins has on the Testosterone receptors can grow the prostates of rats and in humans. It's also clear the 5 Alpha Reductase properties that gibberellins have can shrink the size of the prostates in rats and in humans. I'm assuming that this is why it says on the SMH's website that "pine pollen can shrink the Prostate if it's inflamed or grow the Prostate of its to small".

My thoughts about the gibberellins study:

Even though we know 5 alpha reductase inhibitors typically can raise testosterone levels it's uncommon for a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor to also have anabolic properties. This makes gibberellins unique in the regard that it "acts as testosterone" in the body but at the same time it can inhibit the 5 alpha reductase enzymes. Maybe this has the potential to be significant for guys who are sensitive to taking 5 alpha reductase inhibitors as this is may be a way to inhibit the enzyme but at the same time with the protection of its anabolic properties.

Also the study seems to suggest that when the gibberellins inhibit 5 alpha reductase it's doing so within the prostate and not on a systematic level. This could be groundbreaking for someone who suffers from an enlarged prostate and who is also extremely sensitive to 5 alpha reductase inhibitors like my self. Of course the only other known effective alternative to 5 alpha reductase inhibitors is surgery when it comes to treating an enlarged prostate.

Question for CDnuts.

1) are you still taking pine pollen ?

2) how long have you been taking the pine pollen ?

3) if you took the time out to read the gibberellins study, what are your thoughts?

4) have you noticed or felt anything while taking pine pollen that would make you believe it's problematic for 5Ar sensitive guys?

Just an FYI. I am by no means trying to challenge Pine Pollen. I just wanted to post this just incase it it does have the ability to act as a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor and you are not aware.

[entropy]

Your posts make my eyes bleed dude. Say less and fix your formatting a little, there's no way people will read through that. Anyway, beta sitosterol has to be taken in a pretty large dosage to mess with hormones, its actually present in a lot of things like avocado etc. Kinda like how there's cyanide in apples. I haven't actually looked for any negatives on pine pollen, I've been using it for a couple weeks and noticed nothing but benefits however.

[5 alpha victim]

"Your posts make my eyes bleed dude. Say less and fix your formatting"

It's actually really easy to follow. I posted sources for every point made.

"Anyway, beta sitosterol has to be taken in a pretty large dosage to mess with hormones"

Interesting. Not sure how much caution I want to use with beta sitosterol yet. Perhaps a product like toco caps that contains some beta sitosterol is safe. The study I posted about nettle however makes it clear that the nettle contains other ingredients that inhibit 5AR other than just the b-sitosterol. With that said Stinging Nettle is deff not safe for 5AR sensitive guys.

"I haven't actually looked for any negatives on pine pollen, I've been using it for a couple weeks and noticed nothing but benefits however."

I'm not sure what to make of this yet. We know pine pollen contains gibberellins and we know based on the gibberellins study I posted that gibberellins does inhibit DHT at least in the prostate. When I seen that super Man herbs claimed pine pollen had the ability to shrink the prostate I started looking into gibberellins and that's how I found that study.

It appears most Phystosterols are 5AR inhibitors. But to what extent? And should 5AR sensitive guys avoid them?

The good news is that there is at least two members on this website who take pine pollen and who are sensitive to 5 ar inhibitors and they have no problems. Only benefits.
Like I said this could be huge if gibberellins truly can inhibit Dht just in the prostate and no where else in the body....

[entropy]

As far as I'm aware the beta sitosterol in toco caps is naturally occurring in the palm oil its made from. I take a mixed tocotrienols product too. One could say I don't fuck around. Just for funsies, lauric acid is a 5ari, it also makes up about half of the fatty acids in coconut oil and I consume that in vast amounts. On average about 30-40gms a day. CD likes it too. No issues. Obviously be careful but a tonne of things can inhibit an enzyme in a test tube.. It doesn't always mean consuming that thing will have the same effect after ingestion.

[Speck]

I mentioned this somewhere else but as well as in-vitro effects being sometimes vastly different from in-vivo effects, dietary fats are mostly triglycerides whereas the study involving lauric acid used free fatty acids. Different effects on cells.

For the same reason I'm skeptical about sorghum; the study which supports its role in increasing 5ar focused on the fatty acid content. The same study looked at rice and conversely found it to be a strong 5ar inhibitor, yet billions of people around the world eat plenty of rice, and their prostates aren't shrivelling up or their dicks falling off.

Sorghum bran however contains heaps of antioxidants, rivalling those of other more expensive 'superfoods' (pomegranate, etc.). Possibly pro-erectile benefits there by that MOA rather than increased DHT.

[Cdsnuts]

I can save you the trouble from needing to dig into your Propecia files.

Here is a study about the 5 alpha reductase capabilities of Stinging Nettle:

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/...2e0291953a.pdf

The most important paragraph from this study: (Stinging Nettle is abbreviated as UD)

The results of the study suggest that UDP prevented prostatic hyperplasia significantly with 50 mg kg)1 show- ing the best activity. UDE also showed significant results. The in vitro studies cleared the mechanism of prevention of prostatic hyperplasia induced by testosterone. It is evi- dent that UD extracts have 5a reductase inhibitory activ- ity. The weekly serum testosterone levels are suggestive of the mechanism of action of the extracts and finasteride. The decrease in urinary obstruction also suggests that the extracts have a positive effect on hypertrophy of the pros- tate. As b-sitosterol is a well-known molecule established for the treatment of BPH (Martindale, 1989; The Merck Index, 2006), the presence of b-sitosterol as a major con- stituent in the extracts further supports our observations. A number of clinical studies undertaken by different scientific groups have supported clinical efficacy of b-sitosterol in prostate disorders (Braeckman, 1994; Berges et al., 1995; Klippel et al., 1997; Wilt et al., 1998, 1999). Our studies with b-sitosterol are indicative of its protec- tive effects on testosterone-induced hyperplasia. The per- centage of b-sitosterol in UDP and UDE was calculated to be 27.28% and 19.96%, respectively. The amount of b-sitosterol present in the extract does not seem to be sole contributor of the activity as 20 mg kg)1 dose of standard b-sitosterol is not as effective as the extract (50 mg kg)1). The effects of b-sitosterol might be potentiated by the presence of other constituents present in the extract. Synergistic mechanism of action along with the other phytoconstituents present in the extract can be suggested for these preventive effects.

Important things to point out from this study;

Stinging Nettle Inhibits 5 alpha Reductase

Nettle contains B-Sitosterol. Just incase anyone does not know what this is its a type of PhytoSterol found in Saw Palmetto.

Here is my source to back this up. It's a study about the content/mechanism of action of Saw Palmetto:

Fatty Acid and Phytosterol Content of Commercial Saw Palmetto Supplements

On page 3 you will read about how B-Sitosterol is one of the common PhytoSterols found in Saw Palmetto.

I highly recommend anyone who is interested in understanding the ins and outs of Saw P to read that entire study.

I also recently discovered that B-Sitostetol is in the Toco caps from the ultimate stack from Wicked Sups. This is unfortunate as I was planning on using it as PCT and now need to make other plans.

Here's the link to the wicked sups showing B-Sitostetol is in the Toco Caps:

The Ultimate Stack Wicked Supplements

This study about Gibberellins seems to relate to this subject so I figured I'd offer the information:

Patent WO1991008751A1 -
The use of gibberellins for the treatment of prostatitis and psoriasis - Google Patents

Gibberellins are a type of PhytoSterol that is found in Pine Pollen.

Here is the link from SMH's that talks about how Gibberellins are found in Pine Pollen and here is a link that that provides some basic information about PhytoSterols.

Pine Pollen - Testosterone - Pine Pollen Tincture - Benefits

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhytoSterol

I dug out the important pieces of information from the Gibberellins study posted above. This may be important to people who are sensitive to 5 alpha reductase inhibitors.

"The gibberellins and gibberellin precursors have a structural similarity with testosterone and therefore bind to the testosterone receptors"

" The physiological effects exerted by testosterone are therefore mimiced by the gibberellins and gibberellin precursors . The effect on hyperplasia or hypertrophic growth of the prostatic glands is also a result of the testosterone-like activity"

" the gibberellins or gibberellin precursors are thought to bind to the enzyme 5-α reductase , which normally converts testosterone to dihydro testosterone"

"If the concentration of gibberellins or gibberellin precursors in the prostate is high enough, the 5 -α reductase can be blocked by the gibberellins or the gibberellin precursors"

"Experimentally induced hypertrophic growth of the prostatic gland in rats by dihydrotestosterone was also inhibited by the gibberellins. Treatment of male adult uncastrated rats with a daily 50 μg dosis of dihydrotestosterone for three months resulted in hypertrophic growth of the prostate gland. The weight of the prostate was 814 mg, which was equivalent to about 0.342 of the total body weight. When the rats were simultaneously given a daily dose of 100 μg of gibberellins GA20 and GA30, an increase in prostate weight was not detected. The weight of the prostate was in this case 582 mg, which was equivalent to 0.20% of the total body weight"

"Hyperplasia and hypertrophic growth of the prostate glands in male humans was also reduced by treatment with gibberellins GA20 and GA30. The substances were administered orally in a weak ethanol solution containing doses of 10 μg, 50 μg, 100 μg, 500 μg and 1 mg per day for three weeks. The treatment resulped in a reduced swelling and a reduced growth of the prostate. The treatment with the gibberellins also resulted in a slight increase in body weight and a slight increase in libido"

My interpretation of the gibberellins study:

Based on the results of this study its clear that the Testosterone mimicking effects gibberellins has on the Testosterone receptors can grow the prostates of rats and in humans. It's also clear the 5 Alpha Reductase properties that gibberellins have can shrink the size of the prostates in rats and in humans. I'm assuming that this is why it says on the SMH's website that "pine pollen can shrink the Prostate if it's inflamed or grow the Prostate of its to small".

My thoughts about the gibberellins study:

Even though we know 5 alpha reductase inhibitors typically can raise testosterone levels it's uncommon for a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor to also have anabolic properties. This makes gibberellins unique in the regard that it "acts as testosterone" in the body but at the same time it can inhibit the 5 alpha reductase enzymes. Maybe this has the potential to be significant for guys who are sensitive to taking 5 alpha reductase inhibitors as this is may be a way to inhibit the enzyme but at the same time with the protection of its anabolic properties.

Also the study seems to suggest that when the gibberellins inhibit 5 alpha reductase it's doing so within the prostate and not on a systematic level. This could be groundbreaking for someone who suffers from an enlarged prostate and who is also extremely sensitive to 5 alpha reductase inhibitors like my self. Of course the only other known effective alternative to 5 alpha reductase inhibitors is surgery when it comes to treating an enlarged prostate.

Question for CDnuts.

1) are you still taking pine pollen ?

2) how long have you been taking the pine pollen ?

3) if you took the time out to read the gibberellins study, what are your thoughts?

4) have you noticed or felt anything while taking pine pollen that would make you believe it's problematic for 5Ar sensitive guys?

Just an FYI. I am by no means trying to challenge Pine Pollen. I just wanted to post this just incase it it does have the ability to act as a 5 alpha reductase inhibitor and you are not aware.

Nothing but good things to say about pine pollen. Its g2g.