Saw Palmetto and Fenugreek...im in trouble!

[5 alpha victim]

Nice. That puts my mind at ease. I am eager to start taking pine pollen and pine pollen tincture that I already have.

I'm going through a phase of being more paranoid than usual about 5AR inhibitors after confirming that my T levels recently crashed. I suspect that a fish oil supplement that I have been taking for the last three months is to blame.

I think this paragraph from the gibberellins study says everything we need to know:

"If the concentration of gibberellins or gibberellin precursors in the prostate is high enough, the 5 -α reductase can be blocked by the gibberellins or the gibberellin precursors"

It's making it sound like if Gibberellins inhibit 5AR it's only in the Prostate. Also it's making it clear that only if the gibberellins content in the Prostate is high enough will it inhibit DHT.

[English]

Nah.....dont mind. It's been quite a while since I've seen that post. Looking at it again now, that was exactly what I said it was, just the bones of it. There were also little intricacies here and there that totaled out the program.

But seeing as 90% of the guys couldn't even stay on the barebones version, there was no sense in me adding anymore to it.

I never understood it...guys were offing themselves because they're stuck in such a desperate state, yet most of them just couldn't follow a simple program to get themselves on the road to being better. It always amazed me. I would have (and did) done anything.

Seeing as we're on this whole topic, I've been experimenting over the past two years with some exponentially more powerful herbs then the ones I recommended in that recovery post. As a matter of fact, if I had to do it again, I would recommend a better, stronger more effective group of herbs then I did a few years ago. I'm finding these new experiments so good, that this summer is going to be my last time using exogenous hormones. (Just because I have one last batch of AHv3 and AMv3.)

I'm actually gonna get a blood test to see where things are at because I've been feeling completely juiced lately, and I'm 100% natty.

Maybe it's just a cumulative effect of me living my life the way I outlined in that post. I've never stopped doing all of those things. It's been years. It's just my way of life now. That being said, the inclusion of these new herbs have really taken things to the next level. I feel better now at 37 then I did at 27. I've never been one to do bloods but I'm so curious lately.

You're teasing us CD with your mention of wonder herbs without telling us which ones and where? I'm still a sucker for them, so give us the names, where to get them from, and ideally a European supplier!!!
Also, yes get your bloods done (on an empty stomach BTW) you need to get well over 900 to take me down!!!!!!!!!

[Cdsnuts]

You're teasing us CD with your mention of wonder herbs without telling us which ones and where? I'm still a sucker for them, so give us the names, where to get them from, and ideally a European supplier!!!
Also, yes get your bloods done (on an empty stomach BTW) you need to get well over 900 to take me down!!!!!!!!!

Lol. Here you go. Super Man Herbs - Pine Pollen, Mushrooms, Shilajit and More ALL of their herbs are of the highest quality and some of the best stuff I've ever used. And i've used alot. I've spent thousands of dollars trying different supplements to boost testosterone naturally and superman herbs hands down is the best. Others here that have tried them would say the same thing. Once you try their stuff you can actually see how watered down some of the other stuff on the market is.

[Lookingforhelp]

Hi CDsnuts. I've followed you for some time now and I appreciate that you are way behind the finasteride stuff and it's all documented well. I've read a lot into your regime.

I'm a little crappy with these forums too and not quite sure how to private message you so hope you don't mind me hijacking this.

A brief story of myself. A couple of years ago now I began to get very fatigued and tired. I had a physical job so put it down to this at the time. I'd always had a strong libido and ravenous drive. I began taking these male vitamins for a boost. I ran out of the 20 odd pills. I then looked at the active ingredients. One was saw palmetto? I had never heard of this so googled. Instantly as you read it mentions increasing sex drive and male impotence... And at the same time helps hair loss? I thought great. I'll buy some of this stuff.

After one pill of swansons saw palmetto I woke the next day with hell. Cold shrunken dick, no life, ed. it's like a switch had been turned off over night. I managed to recover when on holiday to Mexico a few weeks later. Maybe the vit d helped?

Coming back I began to feel worse, I began to get ravaged with aches and pains, diarrhoea, no libido again, ed. blood flow began to return to my dick but had prostate pain. Urologist said it was prostatits. I took some antibiotics which seemed to help.

I was then in hospital for a week with pericarditis which is an inflammatory condition of the heart, basically I was crippled with inflammation.

My bloods have always been okay. 3 adiol g etc fine. I suffered with low cortisol for a while, maybe from all the inflammation, e2 never been an issue. Testosterone has been good, free and total. The only thing I've suffered with for two years has been raised prolactin. I tried cabergoline a few times and it helped immensely but prolactin would always come back. I have no tumor.

I then did much research into prolactin burnout and autoimmune. I kept begging for tests for autoimmune disorders butnthendocs wouldn't have it despite my gut issues. Eventually I managed to get checked for celiacs disease. It came back positive! Great, I thought this would be the answer. I began a gluten free diet, I managed to rid myself of a little brain fog, cold hands and feet weren't a constant issue anymore, body temperature rose... Blood test for prolactin 2 months later was in a normal range. For once!!

Doing reading into celiac and hormones i came across this.

Infertility, obstetric and gynaecological problems in coeliac sprue. - PubMed - NCBI
Abstract
There is now substantial evidence that coeliac sprue is associated with infertility both in men and women. In women it can also lead to delayed menarche, amenorrhoea, early menopause, recurrent abortions, and a reduced pregnancy rate. In men it can cause hypogonadism, immature secondary sex characteristics and reduce semen quality. The real mechanism by which coeliac sprue produces these changes is unclear, but factors such as malnutrition, iron, folate and zinc deficiencies have all been implicated. In addition in men gonadal dysfunction is believed to be due to reduced conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone caused by low levels of 5 alpha-reductase in coeliac sprue. This leads to derangement of the hypothalamic-pituitary axis. Hyperprolactinaemia is seen in 25% of coeliac patients, which causes impotence and loss of libido. Gluten withdrawal and correction of deficient dietary elements can lead to a return of fertility both in men and women.

I could not believe what I was seeing. I now think I've suffered with gluten and celiac sensitivity for years without knowing, but it never seemed to effect me sexually that much. It mentions androgen insensitivity! When I first got really sick, my testosterone levels where high at 26. Looking at this study I would presume my dht levels were low. Drs fobbed me off saying it was all in my head.
Prolactin has an effect on 5 alpha reductase, I've read studies that it enhances the 5 alpha reductive enzyme in the testes, and others that show it blocks the enzyme in other areas.

Anyway, being gluten free, my prolactin is down but my testosterone has slumped. My dht sits at a good level though.
I'm still so so fatigued, my sleep is better, but libidos and erections are crap. I get nocturnal and morning wood but they aren't as strong as they should be. I still suffer with my mind and drive. I'm hoping being of gluten will repair me. Maybe when this first happened had I gone strict gluten this wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, I hope you are well and I respect you for your diligence. I can't stand the PH website, all moaning and gloom, yet no one is prepared to stop going out drinking, they keep eating shit. It's like you said, how badly do you want it. I've changed every aspect of my life for this. I just need to recover my sexual sides.

One question, do you need to keep cycling the herbs to function sexually? Or are you recovered even when off them?

For me I'm wondering what came first? What caused this? The celiacs or saw palmetto? Did saw palmetto set this off? I know one of the factors that got you better was diet. I just wanted to share this with people in case it helps. I think lowering 5 alpha to low levels changes something in our guts. Whether you have celiacs or not, I think gluten should be cut out for anyone suffering from propecia etc.

[entropy]

Is it really that hard to make your own thread? Try reading CDs threads on the other site... Then come back here and ask for help. What is it you're asking here anyway?

[English]

Hi CDsnuts. I've followed you for some time now and I appreciate that you are way behind the finasteride stuff and it's all documented well. I've read a lot into your regime.

I'm a little crappy with these forums too and not quite sure how to private message you so hope you don't mind me hijacking this.

A brief story of myself. A couple of years ago now I began to get very fatigued and tired. I had a physical job so put it down to this at the time. I'd always had a strong libido and ravenous drive. I began taking these male vitamins for a boost. I ran out of the 20 odd pills. I then looked at the active ingredients. One was saw palmetto? I had never heard of this so googled. Instantly as you read it mentions increasing sex drive and male impotence... And at the same time helps hair loss? I thought great. I'll buy some of this stuff.

After one pill of swansons saw palmetto I woke the next day with hell. Cold shrunken dick, no life, ed. it's like a switch had been turned off over night. I managed to recover when on holiday to Mexico a few weeks later. Maybe the vit d helped?

Coming back I began to feel worse, I began to get ravaged with aches and pains, diarrhoea, no libido again, ed. blood flow began to return to my dick but had prostate pain. Urologist said it was prostatits. I took some antibiotics which seemed to help.

I was then in hospital for a week with pericarditis which is an inflammatory condition of the heart, basically I was crippled with inflammation.

My bloods have always been okay. 3 adiol g etc fine. I suffered with low cortisol for a while, maybe from all the inflammation, e2 never been an issue. Testosterone has been good, free and total. The only thing I've suffered with for two years has been raised prolactin. I tried cabergoline a few times and it helped immensely but prolactin would always come back. I have no tumor.

I then did much research into prolactin burnout and autoimmune. I kept begging for tests for autoimmune disorders butnthendocs wouldn't have it despite my gut issues. Eventually I managed to get checked for celiacs disease. It came back positive! Great, I thought this would be the answer. I began a gluten free diet, I managed to rid myself of a little brain fog, cold hands and feet weren't a constant issue anymore, body temperature rose... Blood test for prolactin 2 months later was in a normal range. For once!!

Doing reading into celiac and hormones i came across this.

Infertility, obstetric and gynaecological problems in coeliac sprue. - PubMed - NCBI
Abstract
There is now substantial evidence that coeliac sprue is associated with infertility both in men and women. In women it can also lead to delayed menarche, amenorrhoea, early menopause, recurrent abortions, and a reduced pregnancy rate. In men it can cause hypogonadism, immature secondary sex characteristics and reduce semen quality. The real mechanism by which coeliac sprue produces these changes is unclear, but factors such as malnutrition, iron, folate and zinc deficiencies have all been implicated. In addition in men gonadal dysfunction is believed to be due to reduced conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone caused by low levels of 5 alpha-reductase in coeliac sprue. This leads to derangement of the hypothalamic-pituitary axis. Hyperprolactinaemia is seen in 25% of coeliac patients, which causes impotence and loss of libido. Gluten withdrawal and correction of deficient dietary elements can lead to a return of fertility both in men and women.

I could not believe what I was seeing. I now think I've suffered with gluten and celiac sensitivity for years without knowing, but it never seemed to effect me sexually that much. It mentions androgen insensitivity! When I first got really sick, my testosterone levels where high at 26. Looking at this study I would presume my dht levels were low. Drs fobbed me off saying it was all in my head.
Prolactin has an effect on 5 alpha reductase, I've read studies that it enhances the 5 alpha reductive enzyme in the testes, and others that show it blocks the enzyme in other areas.

Anyway, being gluten free, my prolactin is down but my testosterone has slumped. My dht sits at a good level though.
I'm still so so fatigued, my sleep is better, but libidos and erections are crap. I get nocturnal and morning wood but they aren't as strong as they should be. I still suffer with my mind and drive. I'm hoping being of gluten will repair me. Maybe when this first happened had I gone strict gluten this wouldn't have happened.

Anyway, I hope you are well and I respect you for your diligence. I can't stand the PH website, all moaning and gloom, yet no one is prepared to stop going out drinking, they keep eating shit. It's like you said, how badly do you want it. I've changed every aspect of my life for this. I just need to recover my sexual sides.

One question, do you need to keep cycling the herbs to function sexually? Or are you recovered even when off them?

For me I'm wondering what came first? What caused this? The celiacs or saw palmetto? Did saw palmetto set this off? I know one of the factors that got you better was diet. I just wanted to share this with people in case it helps. I think lowering 5 alpha to low levels changes something in our guts. Whether you have celiacs or not, I think gluten should be cut out for anyone suffering from propecia etc.

Like entropy said, you should start your own thread - put it in mens health and ancillary medication. There is a sub thread there for PFS. No-one can tell you which came first, particularly as you became fatigued and sought vitamins etc. for a boost. This could well have been the start of your coeliac condition. Looks like the saw palmetto caused the rest though and is consistent with hundreds of other saw palmetto stories.
You will recover if you do the right things consistently for months and maybe even years. I am recovered fully and many others have to, but the common denominator for the vast majority of those that have recovered is a positive outlook and excellent diet and exercise etc. over a long period of time. It is character building stuff, and one day you will realise that PFS made you the man you will become. You don't need direct contact with CD, just read all his posts as everything you need is written already by him on these boards and on PH.

[Lookingforhelp]

I was just merely discussing and confirming his recovery regime and that it must be a massive part of what's going wrong. I thought I would add to this thread seen as its to do with saw palmetto too and if anyone is going through it too it might help

I've read every single thing he's ever written, I stated that in what I wrote earlier. And I apologise I'm not great with computers and forums.

My question was does he need to be cycling herbs continually or is he okay without?

[Cdsnuts]

I was just merely discussing and confirming his recovery regime and that it must be a massive part of what's going wrong. I thought I would add to this thread seen as its to do with saw palmetto too and if anyone is going through it too it might help

I've read every single thing he's ever written, I stated that in what I wrote earlier. And I apologise I'm not great with computers and forums.

My question was does he need to be cycling herbs continually or is he okay without?

I don't NEED to do anything anymore if I don't want to. I CHOOSE to continually cycle the herbs I've written about because of the way it makes me feel. The same way I CHOOSE to do PH cycles once or twice a year. I enjoy them greatly. Why would you settle for "normal" or mediocre when you can be alpha all the time?

To clarify...I function normally without any assistance whatsoever. No Pde5's, no hormones, no herbs. I'm 100%. But to say that I am happy I found these herbs is an understatement. What you don't realize now in your state, is that when you do recover, they are life changing plants. They enhance my life in so many ways, not just sexually. They increase my strength and endurance in the gym. They aid in muscle building. They add to my overall well being, vitality and good mood. They are actually healthy to take because they are loaded with bio-available vitamins, minerals and phytochemicals that aid and enhance the function of the human body, thus aiding and enhancing your life itself. Honestly, I don't know why people don't take them......aside from the taste maybe.....the taste is god awful....lol.

Some people enjoy tobacco, or running 5ks, or drinking too much (I enjoy this too) I enjoy taking these herbs daily. It's a life practice, like any other life practice. I also still meditate on an almost daily basis, but no one seems to ask about that? Why is this? Or no one asks if I still lift weights or eat Modified Paleo and backload? The only thing people seem to be hung up on is whether I still cycle herbs? I don't get it? I do these things because of what they do for me and how they make me feel. Just like anyone would do anything.

Do I need to......no. Just like someone doesn't need to smoke, or drink, or run 5ks.

[Lookingforhelp]

That's great CD. In no way was I trying to come across as intrusive to your recovery, I respect what you are saying entirely. I just didn't see much in your previous postings about whether cycling the herbs was still something you had to do to keep results. If it was there then I apologise.

I haven't tried cycling the herbs yet, I've been a little hesitant to touch any since saw palmetto but educating myself makes me realise that it could help me. For a long time I couldn't believe that something natural could do this to me! I've changed many aspects of my life for the better, my diet has never been bad, but cutting out gluten is a way of life for me and something I'll never change. I like knowing I'm putting only the best things in my body. I have so much more appreciation for it now. I still keep active and a positive outlook, something that is a massive help.

I'm sure once I've discovered what works for me and what makes me feel the best I can , I will stick to it like yourself.

My one last question for you is if you suffered any exercise intolerance from your original sides? I'm very lean and muscular anyway and always been fit, however, After excercising I seem to crash, get insomnia, hyperglycaemic almost.very light headed. The reason why I ask this is Drs I've seen say I may have some sort of adrenal fatigue and hard exercise will impair my recovery. It's knowing whether to plough through and it will help, or plough through and make myself worse. I know you don't have a magic answer, just wondering if you could relate at all!

And I appreciate your response, the reason I don't want to get myself involved much with the propecia help gang is that it is literally all doom and gloom. Jumping from one theory to the next without putting anything into practice. Arguing about whether it's autoimmune, whether they are going to kill themselves, fuck that. I want to get well and I will. I wanted to talk to you because I liked your attitude and your level headedness. If I messaged one of them I would most likely get the response of that their lives are fucked,they are going to kill themselves, donate to the study. Fuck the study, I'm not waiting on anyone for my change. I'll change it myself.

Hearing that you are 100% normal again gives me hope. I needed that today. Thanks

[Cdsnuts]

That's great CD. In no way was I trying to come across as intrusive to your recovery, I respect what you are saying entirely. I just didn't see much in your previous postings about whether cycling the herbs was still something you had to do to keep results. If it was there then I apologise.

I haven't tried cycling the herbs yet, I've been a little hesitant to touch any since saw palmetto but educating myself makes me realise that it could help me. For a long time I couldn't believe that something natural could do this to me! I've changed many aspects of my life for the better, my diet has never been bad, but cutting out gluten is a way of life for me and something I'll never change. I like knowing I'm putting only the best things in my body. I have so much more appreciation for it now. I still keep active and a positive outlook, something that is a massive help.

I'm sure once I've discovered what works for me and what makes me feel the best I can , I will stick to it like yourself.

My one last question for you is if you suffered any exercise intolerance from your original sides? I'm very lean and muscular anyway and always been fit, however, After excercising I seem to crash, get insomnia, hyperglycaemic almost.very light headed. The reason why I ask this is Drs I've seen say I may have some sort of adrenal fatigue and hard exercise will impair my recovery. It's knowing whether to plough through and it will help, or plough through and make myself worse. I know you don't have a magic answer, just wondering if you could relate at all!

And I appreciate your response, the reason I don't want to get myself involved much with the propecia help gang is that it is literally all doom and gloom. Jumping from one theory to the next without putting anything into practice. Arguing about whether it's autoimmune, whether they are going to kill themselves, fuck that. I want to get well and I will. I wanted to talk to you because I liked your attitude and your level headedness. If I messaged one of them I would most likely get the response of that their lives are fucked,they are going to kill themselves, donate to the study. Fuck the study, I'm not waiting on anyone for my change. I'll change it myself.

Hearing that you are 100% normal again gives me hope. I needed that today. Thanks

I'm glad it helps you in some way.....now maybe you can help me.....

If you've read all of my posts as you indicate then you must know that I've considered myself healed since my recovery post which was in 2012 I believe? I wrote that post for a reason, yet guys still feel the need to ask me personally? Can you answer the question as to why? I'm very curious of this phenomenon? I wrote that I'm healed.....on more then one occasion....yet people still need to ask me? It puzzles me?

And...after following my 1000+ posts over at PH, and following the natural progression of things from the beginning to the end, of which I documented everything, most importantly coming back after an extended absence to let everyone there know that I was 100% again...you still personally felt the need to ask? Can you explain why?

I know the tone is quite direct but I'm seriously asking.......